Author Topic: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.  (Read 5832 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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What is leadership? Is it leadership through example? Is it through personal skill or magnetism? Is it about delegation, taking responsibility, encouragement or punishment? The easy answer is to say it's a mixture of all those things and more. An easy and correct answer, but not much of a discussion. If it's a mixture, which qualities are more important? Do some qualities have potentially negative consequences? A better answer is to say I don't know. I don't know and I'm not sure how anyone could know, not for sure. But I know what I admire and respect in a leader, and I know of leaders in all kinds of fields who I admire and respect, and who had a measurably positive influence on those they led, an influence going way beyond the instant - an influence that lived long after they did, and didn't necessarily need their close presence when they were alive. To me there is an ideal leader at this club already. One who I think exemplifies all the qualities I want in a Liverpool captain, on and off the pitch. He is not the captain, or even the vice-captain. He is our number 21, Lucas Leiva.

Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher are, without doubt, the two most influential players at the club. Their collective influence over the last decade has been almost incalculable. Whatever the atmosphere, team spirit and mentality of the club is now, those two have at least as much, probably more, responsibility for it than any single manager we've had in that time. In fact, to the media, these two don't just represent the club. They are the club. More damagingly, this isn't just true of the media but some of our own fans, players and perhaps even managers. A lot has been said about their influence on young players in particular, about the good they do, and the great example they set. But to what extent is this true?

Are Carragher and Gerrard really perfect or near-perfect examples of leadership on and off the pitch, and of role-models to young players? I know they do spend a lot of time watching academy games and it's obvious that they care a great deal about the club and the youth system in particular. However, the amount you care about something is sadly not actually the same as how good you are at it. My ideal is Lucas, someone who for me leads the young players both by example and by actual tutoring on the pitch. In terms of his professionalism on and off the pitch, and his behaviour upon it, Lucas is essentially the perfect player, regardless of how you rate him is a leader. it's hard to think of anywhere he can improve. He is my benchmark, so how do our actual leaders measure up?

Let's start with their professional example. Two questions here: How do they train and respond to setbacks? Next, what kind of example do they set on the pitch?

Lucas is pretty much the ultimate professional. He has never moaned about any aspect of his treatment as a player or by fans, never going further than to talk about difficulties having made him stronger. He is vocal on the pitch, but never aggressive. There is never a team-mate he doesn't stand up for, or a shitty decision he doesn't calmly dispute. Compare that to Carragher who has verbally and occasionally even physically confronted other players on the field of play, for mistakes that were in fact his. Arbeloa can testify to that. Skrtel and his jaw, now that it's working again, can also testify to the lack of trust Carragher has, on occasion, shown his team-mates. Though it never seems to be team mates of comparable stature and influence to himself. On the other hand we have Gerrard who who also shows clear displeasure at team mates - but again never at 'senior' team mates. I've seen him shout at Lucas - again for his own mistakes at times - yet I've never once seen him have a go at Carragher, nor Carragher him. He sometimes stands up for team-mates, or up to the referee, but not always, or even that often. He rarely seems to be around if, for example, one of ours gets scythed down, where you can guarantee that, if possible, Lucas and Reina will be there to have a word. He will always stand up for himself, and the club in general, but does he always stand up for his colleagues on the pitch?

What about the way they play?

Well, Lucas is relentless in his quest for self-improvement, seemingly seeing it much like the poem 'If...' in that he sees mistakes and successes both the same way, and tries his best to learn from both. Carragher and Gerrard are both incredibly hard and driven workers, but neither can say they've always done the job asked of them without complaint. Neither can say they've worked on their weaknesses and sought to improve in every way possible in the way that Lucas has.

Now look at Lucas' style of play. He is the ultimate team player. Completely unselfish. He doesn't care who he's playing with, the pass he gives is the pass he thinks is best. He doesn't see other players, he sees red shirts and the position they're in. The ball goes to the red shirt in the best position. He will never go for an awkward shot if he can play in a team-mate. If anything, he is almost too unselfish at times, one of few remaining weaknesses he could work on, albeit one that is also linked to confidence and where his attacking opportunities are limited by his position, a position whose principle responsibilities he never, ever shirks, not for a second, whoever the opposition.

Compare that to Gerrard and Carragher. Carragher doesn't see positions. He see two things: 'danger' and 'clear'. There is very little he can do without dwelling on the ball first, even at his best. He barely passed the ball to Lucas for the Brazilian's first two or three seasons. Gerrard is supremely skilled and can be a good team player but the fact is that he has his favourites. How often have we seen Gerrard drift completely out of position in order to take the ball from the toes of players like Traore or Dosenna? How often does he drop deeper than even the centre-backs because he doesn't trust them to supply him? How big was his drop in form after losing a trusted companion in Alonso? Bigger than it should have been, even accounting for Alonso's ability. Is his decision-making honestly the best? Yes, it's hard pressed to find a better player but if you were telling someone to pick a role-model in football would it really be Gerrard? If Gerrard had the brain and leadership to match his talent he'd be the best player in history by an absolute mile. As it is those aren't exactly huge weaknesses but they are there, and now that he's losing some of his pace, now that he's losing some of his once unstoppable power, those slight weaknesses are clearer than they have ever been before.

By extension, both players also neglect responsibilities required of top footballers in their position. Carragher can't fulfill his responsibilities in attack because he dwells on the ball and rarely keeps it on the floor (or at least pass long with reasonable pace and accuracy), plus he has favourites. Gerrard through generally poor defensive positioning and occasionally switching off when it comes to tracking runners, and he too has had favourites - players he won't pass too, players he will nearly always look for even if they're in poor positions.

So what evidence do we have for how they act with, and how they are seen by the young players?

Well, we know Gerrard and Carragher are heroes to youngsters coming through the system. To an extent they would be that anyway, but again there is no doubting the time they spend with the reserves and academy, nor is their any questioning their commitment to the youth system in General. Or to numerous individuals within the sytem. Neither could do more to promote the idea of youth promotion. But that could be said of Lucas too. More importantly, we've seen how Lucas has guided players like Spearing, like Flanagan and Robinson. With hard, unstinting work. With complete unselfishness. With vocal, encouraging support, on the pitch, where I think it counts most, though of course the only place we can see it happen and so try to judge it.

Can we say the same for Carra and Gerrard? Did they give that type of support to, say, Lucas himself when he came through? No. Spearing got it, but not Lucas. Not Insua. Lucas, in fact, has been on the end of plenty of unjustified outbursts or shows of emotion from both those players, and has had to watch Carra bypass him in good positions to a point that it seemed deliberate, or at least very obstinate. Is this a good example to set? Is this likely to encourage all the young players at the club to do their best, to emulate their heroes, regardless of nationality or level of skill? Does it even set the best example to the players who they do favour, and who they do encourage? I don't think so.

Yet, for the number of times they've helped mentor a young player through a game, or talked a new signing through his Liverpool baby steps, how often have you seen one shrink before them? A Traore after the ball being taken off his toes, a Lucas receiving an earful because they miscontrolled his pass? Can we honestly say that our captain and vice-captain acted fairly in terms of the praise and/or punishment they dole out to others on the pitch? Or do some have to endure quite a lot of discouragement at their hands while others seem to have little but support and encouragement? Of course, we can't know what happens off the pitch. So again we have to go by what's on the pitch. We know Flanagan has given a lot of credit to them, and we've seen them guiding many individuals through games. But what about the rest of the team? Is it possible to encourage everyone? Is that even a captain's job? I think Lucas does a very good try at it, but beyond him I think Agger and Reina both seem more consistent in their approach, more fair in their criticisms, and work better in terms of helping others improve themselves.

On balance, Gerrard and Carragher have without doubt done more good than harm to the development of young players at this club. But they are also more responsible than any other players for the general culture at the club over the last ten years.

As a club, have we honestly been good for young players? In terms of that transition from reserves to the hard realities of the first team? Can we look at examples of teams that do it right, or teams we think do it better (in terms of introducing youngsters into the team) and say we're as good? If a youth comes through at Arsenal or Manchester United they get support and encouragement. Look at how Giggs, Scholes, Neville and others before them treated young players - at least at first. With positivity, with understanding of mistakes when they first came through. You have to have established yourself at least a little bit at those clubs before you get shouted at by the senior players. In contrast, when you are senior, and especially at Manchester United, it doesn't matter if you're Giggs or Scholes or Hernandez or you've got the captain's armband on or not, if you make a basic mistake, the kind of mistake you should have learned from when you were young and had the encouragement, then one of those other seniors will have a go. The manager doesn't even have to transmit this to the team anymore, the players do it and know what's expected, and pass that on to the young players in turn (as long as they're willing to learn, not all are or ever will be).

Does that sound like 'The Liverpool Way' with youngsters over the last ten years or so? Not to me it doesn't. For every encouraging word I've seen a shout or an exasperated gesture. For every well done I've seen a pass ignored or a move bypassed. For every player I've seen boosted by Carra and Gerrard's leadership, I've seen another one visibly shrink after a misplaced word, pass, shout or gesture. It's by no means just them either, and we've had far worse (Ruddock anyone?), but is that enough, now or in the longer term? The kind of examples Gerrard and Carragher set on the pitch, for me, are incredibly positive when they are on form. When they are off form, or out of the team, what has their leadership taught those around them? If you lead through encouragement and delegation as well as, or instead of, the force of your personality and skill, you give your team-mates something that can build, that can grow when even when you aren't around. If you lead through personality alone when all personalities are flawed then you might have a big problem when things aren't going your way. Personality based leadership doesn't work regardless of circumstance, no matter how powerful it can be.

Now you can say strong players should deal with it anyway, and the very strong, like Lucas - who in my view is a good example of not only of how to be a great leader but also in how Carra and Gerrard have failed to measure up in their treatment of him - but not every player is that strong, or can be like that, though some can develop into it given the right environment. There are a lot of players who are quite strong, but need encouragement, need support, need the feeling of responsibility, rather than having it taken from them. So many squad players and young players seem to do a come in and do a job for Utd that defies their talent, sometimes for years, yet get a similar talent, similar mentality here and they seem to shrink and drift away into obscurity. How good would John O'Shea be if he'd come through here rather than our rivals?

I don't think that transition from reserves to the first team, or from another club to the first team, is all down to the management team. With us there are also decades worth of structural problems, but I still think the players have a real impact, especially when they've been here so long, and have the added power of that local connection. In shaping the team spirit and atmosphere, in creating the best possible environment for others to flourish - not just the other world class players but the solid professionals, squad players and all those who, for whatever reason, have a cameo to play, do our players do enough to help each other flourish?

That's not to say we're the worst, in fact I don't even think we're bad, and in many ways our team spirit is incredible - no one can question our (or their) work-ethic, or dedication, or determination, or commitment, or love of the club, community and city. Certainly on those last three points Carragher and Gerrard stand among the very greatest of Liverpool legends. Players who represent not just a club but a city and even a culture every bit as much as the likes of Baresi or Guardiola. They have an abundance incredibly fine and useful qualities. But are they the ideal on-pitch leaders for this football club? Who is the ideal leader? I don't know for sure. No-one does. But I know what someone we all trust had to say on the subject, and I know that, for me, whoever our leader is should be the player who comes closest to embodying, on the pitch, what that someone said:

"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life"
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 03:55:22 AM by hesbighesred »
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Online Hazell

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #1 on: March 5, 2012, 08:24:16 PM »
I do wish you'd post more HBHR. Another excellent post.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #2 on: March 5, 2012, 08:25:13 PM »
I cited it as an example in the Coates thread, but I found the series Band of Brothers to be an interesting study of different leadership methods and how men respond to them. A lot's been said about how certain people are the type you want in the trenches with you. Substituting reality for metaphor, it's curiously relevant what E company's men said about Winters. Quiet with rarely a raised voice if ever, leading by example, a spartan lifestyle dedicated to his men, always there with encouragement. Jump to the other side of the world and see what Sledge said of Haldane, and it's virtually the same thing. Also bear in mind that the "men" Winters and Haldane were leading were mostly 19-20 year olds.
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Offline jackh

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #3 on: March 5, 2012, 08:26:08 PM »
Stopped reading half-way through.

Often enjoy your posts and I doubt doubt that you go on to raise some interesting and worthy points later in this opening post - I think you'll lose a lot of readers based upon the nature of the length intro, though...I'm a big fan of Lucas and you touch of many of his virtues but, rather than provide a lead into an interesting discusion, your post just sets out like a hatchet job on our senior locals.
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Offline FernandoTourettes

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #4 on: March 5, 2012, 08:37:15 PM »
Quality post (and I think you're right too).

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #5 on: March 5, 2012, 08:38:13 PM »
Stopped reading half-way through.

Often enjoy your posts and I doubt doubt that you go on to raise some interesting and worthy points later in this opening post - I think you'll lose a lot of readers based upon the nature of the length intro, though...I'm a big fan of Lucas and you touch of many of his virtues but, rather than provide a lead into an interesting discusion, your post just sets out like a hatchet job on our senior locals.
In what way? Which criticisms do you find unjustified? Not that I expect you to agree, of course not. But if you're going to use a very strong term like 'hatchet-job' then it would be nice if you justified it, seeing as that clearly implies I've gone out of my way to bend, ignore or invent things specifically in order to make them look as bad as possible.

It's also a shame you stopped half way because that means you missed this part of the conclusion:

"Just to re-iterate, that's not to say we're the worst, in fact I don't even think we're bad, and in many ways our team spirit is incredible - no one can question our (or their) work-ethic, or dedication, or determination, or commitment, or love of the club, community and city. Certainly on those last three points Carragher and Gerrard stand up as the very highest of legends. Players who represent not just a club but a city and even a culture every bit as much as the likes of Baresi or Guardiola. They have an abundance incredibly fine and useful qualities. "

Just to turn it around, I'd ask you this. If they weren't locals, would they still be captain and vice-captain? Would they have ever been? On the latter I think probably yes, on the former I'm not so sure. I honestly think that, right now, there are better candidates for both roles. There's a huge argument for someone else just based on one truth: Carragher is no longer a regular, and Gerrard can't be relied upon to be. Certainly he is not someone we should look to play as often as possible anymore. We will not get the Indian-Gerrard-Summer we all hope for if we keep treating his body like it's 22 rather than 32.

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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #6 on: March 5, 2012, 08:43:01 PM »
I cited it as an example in the Coates thread, but I found the series Band of Brothers to be an interesting study of different leadership methods and how men respond to them. A lot's been said about how certain people are the type you want in the trenches with you. Substituting reality for metaphor, it's curiously relevant what E company's men said about Winters. Quiet with rarely a raised voice if ever, leading by example, a spartan lifestyle dedicated to his men, always there with encouragement. Jump to the other side of the world and see what Sledge said of Haldane, and it's virtually the same thing. Also bear in mind that the "men" Winters and Haldane were leading were mostly 19-20 year olds.
Interesting take on it. I really need to see that series - got put off it to start with but it's been recommended by far too many trusted people for me to ignore now.

Getting away from the styles bit - though it is a very important factor - I'd plump for consistency as an area that I think is massively important in leadership and an area in which both Gerrard and Carragher have real failings. On the other thread someone made comparisons to Keane, Vieira and Neville etc. Yes, some of their leaderships styles correspond very closely Gerrard and Carraghers. Gerrard's style reminds me a bit of Cantona, where Carragher's is very Keane-like. However I think both of those players were more consistent than ours, more supportive of more youngsters, less selective in their support and in their passing, and more willing to take aim at other senior professionals, rather than only at players who are 'weaker' in stature than they are. There's a big difference in how both Carragher and Skrtel treated each other in the Arsenal game compared to last time I saw them play together, a difference that for me gets to the heart of the problem with them as leaders in fact as well as they leaders in spirit they could not help but be regardless.
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Offline Harinder

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #7 on: March 5, 2012, 08:43:56 PM »
Interesting post

Taking a leaf from another area. Mentoring and the aspects of situational leadership are items that are well pushed in management and especially in banking. Having a senior mentor showing a new graduate or seasoned analyst or VP trying to reach the next level is considered a must rather than a luxury. As is the aspects of succession management where you look for the traits associated with positions that you know will require internal promotion or cope with a void.

On the main LFC site today there was an article about Martin Skrtel taking his inspiration from Craig Bellamy, citing his attitude and dedication to training day in day out as part of his inspiration.

I don't think the post by He's Big He's Red is a hatchet job at all... I think it actually puts out a really valid point - just how do we as a club look to mentor our future leaders with the current leaders on the pitch?

Offline Coolie High

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #8 on: March 5, 2012, 08:48:43 PM »
In what way? Which criticisms do you find unjustified? Not that I expect you to agree, of course not. But if you're going to use a very strong term like 'hatchet-job' then it would be nice if you justified it, seeing as that clearly implies I've gone out of my way to bend, ignore or invent things specifically in order to make them look as bad as possible.

It's also a shame you stopped half way because that means you missed this part of the conclusion:

"Just to re-iterate, that's not to say we're the worst, in fact I don't even think we're bad, and in many ways our team spirit is incredible - no one can question our (or their) work-ethic, or dedication, or determination, or commitment, or love of the club, community and city. Certainly on those last three points Carragher and Gerrard stand up as the very highest of legends. Players who represent not just a club but a city and even a culture every bit as much as the likes of Baresi or Guardiola. They have an abundance incredibly fine and useful qualities. "

Just to turn it around, I'd ask you this. If they weren't locals, would they still be captain and vice-captain? Would they have ever been? On the latter I think probably yes, on the former I'm not so sure. I honestly think that, right now, there are better candidates for both roles. There's a huge argument for someone else just based on one truth: Carragher is no longer a regular, and Gerrard can't be relied upon to be. Certainly he is not someone we should look to play as often as possible anymore. We will not get the Indian-Gerrard-Summer we all hope for if we keep treating his body like it's 22 rather than 32.

The fact that you criticize our way of handling young players, but then cite United  and Arsenal as examples doesn't help.  Especially when the former have had success because of characters like Carra and Gerrard, and the latter were starved of success when players like Henry Viera and Keown left the club.

Also it may be of your interest to read Lee Sharpes accounts of his time at United, i would say that building an environment where only the players with the strongest mentalities thrive is not a bad thing when looking at other clubs successes, like i said if a young player shrinks at the slightest hint of criticism then really is that the type of player we want at the club? A Cristiano Ronaldo or Nani were constantly bollocked as youngsters at United, but that didn't stop him for going on to be two top class players.

Lucas being a more reserved character than Carra doesn't mean he is a better leader or a better role model for our young players in my opinion.

« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 09:01:53 PM by Coolie High »

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #9 on: March 5, 2012, 08:50:28 PM »
There is absolutely no doubt Lucas has a superb & solid character, and he's developed in to a wonderful player. But as for the analysis of Carra & SG - what has brought this about?

Regarding the entire paragraph below - do you have inside information to be so informed? Would the club or the youth players qualify what you state. How do you know how much time Carra & SG spend with or without the youth team.
Isn't it true that Spearing simply has limitations and that's the conclusion?

They have an abundance incredibly fine and useful qualities. But I'm not sure they should be held up as great influences on our youth system. Especially when our youth system has relatively poor during their time as senior players, and certainly not when even a player like Spearing who really has benefited from their input probably owes more directly to Lucas, who has played with him, partnered him and tutored him on the pitch at both reserve and senior level than either the Captain or Vice-Captain.

If I'm to be completely honest I'm disappointed in your post mate.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #10 on: March 5, 2012, 08:51:45 PM »
I don't think the post by He's Big He's Red is a hatchet job at all... I think it actually puts out a really valid point - just how do we as a club look to mentor our future leaders with the current leaders on the pitch?
That's a very interesting question, and that would be a very interesting direction for this debate, or at least parts of it to go in. Obviously I think Lucas excels in this respect but Bellamy is an absolutely fantastic example who also, conveniently, has a totally different leadership 'style' to Lucas. No-one could argue with a straight face that Bellamy is a stable character on the pitch, least of all Bellamy himself. He's aggressive, he gives it out to opposition, referees, crowds and team-mates. But therein lies a point - he gives it out to all those alike. He's also been consistent in his attitude for as long as I can remember, though undoubtedly he's gained more control of himself with experience. But look at the managers he's done brilliantly under - we've got Robson, Dalglish and Hughes. Whatever you say about them, they all seem like pretty skilled man managers with a big emphasis on professional, brilliant professionals themselves, managers who demand high standards of themselves and of those around them, but managers who are also consistent and who emphasise collectivism, especially in terms of effort and discipline. Then we've got Benitez, who has the discipline, fairness, standards and consistency plus peerless tactics, but who arguably lacks either the warmth or the psychology, and certainly lacks the playing career. For Bellamy it didn't go so well under him, but nor did it go badly, and nor did he fall out with Benitez, in fact the opposite was true - both speak of the other with great respect, if not necessarily affection.

Now compare that to Souness. As a man I know absolutely for a fact he has many fine qualities. But as a manager? I don't think he was ever consistent. I'm not sure he understood the collective, or collective responsibility the way the previous examples did. We all know what happened between those two.
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Offline Coolie High

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #11 on: March 5, 2012, 08:53:29 PM »
There is absolutely no doubt Lucas has a superb & solid character, and he's developed in to a wonderful player. But as for the analysis of Carra & SG - what has brought this about?

Regarding the entire paragraph below - do you have inside information to be so informed? Would the club or the youth players qualify what you state. How do you know how much time Carra & SG spend with or without the youth team.
Isn't it true that Spearing simply has limitations and that's the conclusion?

If I'm to be completely honest I'm disappointed in your post mate.

Also i'm pretty sure that when we signed that lad from Coventry Conor Thomas it was Gerrard who dropped him to Melwood, similarly when we were signing Jordan Ibe it was Gerrard present with Kenny to meet his parents.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #12 on: March 5, 2012, 08:57:34 PM »
There is absolutely no doubt Lucas has a superb & solid character, and he's developed in to a wonderful player. But as for the analysis of Carra & SG - what has brought this about?

Regarding the entire paragraph below - do you have inside information to be so informed? Would the club or the youth players qualify what you state. How do you know how much time Carra & SG spend with or without the youth team.
Isn't it true that Spearing simply has limitations and that's the conclusion?

If I'm to be completely honest I'm disappointed in your post mate.
I know how much time they spend with the youths because it's well publicised, and because you can't watch the reserves/academy for more than a couple of games without seeing one or both of them in the stands. Their dedication in that respect is exemplary.

The use of Spearing as an example has absolutely nothing to do with his level of ability really, but everything to do with the treatment he got from Carragher and Gerrard, as opposed to the treatment Lucas got at the same age. Off the pitch, and even to the media, I don't expect the same attitude - of course Spearing is local and of course that's special, as it should be. But on the pitch there should not have been a difference. On the pitch all players, in an ideal world, should be treated the same way. Watch Lucas in any given match and he's as close to that ideal as can be (as he is in terms of his attitude to the opposition. It doesn't matter to him, he will give 100% and look to make the correct decision whoever he plays with, for and against). That isn't true of Gerrard or Carragher, and you can't see it anywhere more clearly than in the respective development of those two players, who came through at similar ages, and who play in very similar positions.

As for what prompted it, it was a response raised by a point made in the Sebastian Coates thread, which turned into a very long post which I then thought could lead to an interesting debate and thus might be worth a thread, not least because I'm a disgustingly lazy scribe and owe this site a lot more than I give it, so I'm hoping this thread goes a miniscule way towards paying off that debt.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #13 on: March 5, 2012, 09:00:25 PM »
The fact that you criticize our way of handling young players, but then cite United  and Arsenal as examples doesn't help.  Especially when the former have had success because of characters like Carra and Gerrard, and the latter were starved of success when players like Henry Viera and Keown left the club.

Also it may be of your interest to read Lee Sharpes accounts of his time at United, i would say that building an environment where only the players with the strongest mentalities thrive is not a bad thing when looking at other clubs successes, like i said if a young player shrinks at the slightest hint of criticism then really is that the type of player we want at the club? A Cristiano Ronaldo or Nani was constantly bollocked as youngsters at United, but that didn't stop him for going on to be two top class players.

Lucas being a more reserved character than Carra doesn't mean he is a better leader or a better role model for our young players in my opinion.

If Lucas was given such a rough ride by the two senior pro's can that account for his brilliance these last couple of season? Maybe there is something in what you say therefore, Coolie. Mollycoddling is for wimps. Lucas sure grew up quick in this negative atmosphere HBHR suggests is prevalent so maybe the likes of Coady, Flanagan, Robinson, Suso, Silva and Sterling need a spell with the first team to get ribboned by these two ogres at the head of the playing squad.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #14 on: March 5, 2012, 09:01:39 PM »
Also i'm pretty sure that when we signed that lad from Coventry Conor Thomas it was Gerrard who dropped him to Melwood, similarly when we were signing Jordan Ibe it was Gerrard present with Kenny to meet his parents.
As I've said a number of times, including in the OP, in this respect both men are awesome. Though since you've mentioned two bright British prospects, where were they when Silva signed? Or Pelosi? Or Suso? Are these players less deserving of that kind of welcome because they're foreign?

Again, I don't expect the exact same treatment for foreign as opposed to local players, though for me the line between foreign and British is a hell of a lot less clearly marked than the line between foreign and local, or even British and local. But I do expect them to get the same treatment on the pitch, which hasn't been the case so far (and no, it's clearly not just a local Vs foreign thing, but that's a factor, one that you raised in your post whether intentional or not).
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #15 on: March 5, 2012, 09:03:02 PM »
Interesting take on it. I really need to see that series - got put off it to start with but it's been recommended by far too many trusted people for me to ignore now.

For more details, read the accompanying books, "Band of Brothers" by Stephen Ambrose and "With the Old Breed in Peleliu and Okinawa" by Eugene Sledge. BoB contains character pictures of a number of different leaders (remember the lieutenant who shouted a lot?), but Sledge's description of Captain Haldane is very similar to the E company men's recollections of Winters. And Winters and Haldane, held by their men as the finest leaders they had, are in turn very different from the hairdryer style recommended by some as the ideal form of leadership.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #16 on: March 5, 2012, 09:03:47 PM »
If Lucas was given such a rough ride by the two senior pro's can that account for his brilliance these last couple of season? Maybe there is something in what you say therefore, Coolie. Mollycoddling is for wimps. Lucas sure grew up quick in this negative atmosphere HBHR suggests is prevalent so maybe the likes of Coady, Flanagan, Robinson, Suso, Silva and Sterling need a spell with the first team to get ribboned by these two ogres at the head of the playing squad.
If that is the atmosphere, and Lucas did benefit from it, and if he isn't just an incredibly exceptional player with peerless mentality and professionalism, then there should be other examples. We should be able to point to a lot of youngsters who've excelled themselves, or really bettered themselves. How many is that true of since Gerrard and Carragher became senior professionals here?
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #17 on: March 5, 2012, 09:05:32 PM »
Same old shit, different title.

Have to say though a nice 'I come to praise Caesar not bury him' start, before the stabbings in the back commenced. I'll give you a bit of credit for that.




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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #18 on: March 5, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »
If I'm to be completely honest I'm disappointed in your post mate.
P.S. Again, I want a debate here but you really aren't giving me anything to work with. You picked a couple of points that aren't amazingly relevant and which don't justify a verdict like 'disappointed'. Go back to some of the points I've raised and tell me why they are wrong, or unfair, or exaggerated. I don't think you can honestly, hand on heart say that a single example I've used or point I've raised is unjustified.

In which case I must be missing out on a lot of great qualities that Gerrard or Carragher exhibit that I haven't already raised, and/or I've been greatly exaggerating the bad aspects of Gerrard and Carragher's leadership. Tell us those qualities. Tell us the exaggerations, and there we have a real starting point for an interesting debate. As it is you're not really giving us anything to work with, and I'd really appreciate it if you would, because I know you have a different perspective to me, but I also know it's always worth reading.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #19 on: March 5, 2012, 09:08:18 PM »
As I've said a number of times, including in the OP, in this respect both men are awesome. Though since you've mentioned two bright British prospects, where were they when Silva signed? Or Pelosi? Or Suso? Are these players less deserving of that kind of welcome because they're foreign?

Again, I don't expect the exact same treatment for foreign as opposed to local players, though for me the line between foreign and British is a hell of a lot less clearly marked than the line between foreign and local, or even British and local. But I do expect them to get the same treatment on the pitch, which hasn't been the case so far (and no, it's clearly not just a local Vs foreign thing, but that's a factor, one that you raised in your post whether intentional or not).

They don't need to be present every time we sign a young player, i was just giving you examples of times that Gerrard has been directly involved in the signing of 2 promising youth prospects.  Saying that, that is only two times , two times out of hundreds of youth prospects we have signed in the last few years, he hasn't been present for the signing of every English young player either!

But i would go and suggest that the preferential treatment, would probably be down to the language barrier, yet when have other senior players that we seem to commend here in favour of our two local captains ever been directly present when a young player from the country of their origin has signed?


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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #20 on: March 5, 2012, 09:08:31 PM »
I can't stick up as much for Carra as I can for Gerrard, but I'll have a go anyways. First off, how can Gerrard lack a footballing brain when he can go from playing ACM to playing RB in one game and performing both positions exceedingly well? He's hardly perfect by any means when it comes to positioning and of course his own game has its faults but by his own admission he'd rather be playing farther forward than farther back.

Gerrard doesn't stand up for players when they get bullied by the other teams? Ask Agger how he feels about that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd6LBvf2NDM

Doesn't give his teammates support? Nobody seems to notice when Gerrard is in Suarez's ear constantly before the Man United match at Old Trafford.





Or the reports that he's really taken Andy Carroll under his wing.

And where is this evidence that Carra and Gerrard never gave Lucas any support when he needed it because I've read interviews with Lucas where he cites Gerrard as one of the players who have helped him a lot in his career. Here's an article from 2009 in which Gerrard fully throws his weight behind backing Lucas.

The criticism he receives does get to me, he told the Daily Star Sunday.

I think people forget hes 22 years old. Hes not 27 or 28. The England international also insisted that Lucas would improve with experience, much as he himself has done.

I remember what I was like at that age and I look at where I am now, he continued.

I know that Im a one-million-per cent better player now. I got better with experience.

I made mistakes and learned and it has helped me become the player I am.

Lucas is a good player and I know hell continue to get better.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/29/1180963/steven-gerrard-urges-critics-to-lay-off-liverpools-lucas-leiva

When the youth lads came up to Melwood last season, it was Stevie who showed them around the place and introduced them to everybody. When Ryan Babel spoke out and said he felt lonely within the squad, a couple days later he Tweeted about how he was going into the city centre that day with Stevie to do something with Dirk.



Don't think you'll find Ryan, a foreign player, complaining much about Stevie as a captain.

 That's only half of it to be honest. How many times players have come out and said good things about Stevie as a captain, again you can look at Ryan's reaction to him missing out on the England captaincy or Dirk's. Don't think I've ever read a player come out with negative remarks about Stevie.

Offline jackh

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #21 on: March 5, 2012, 09:08:53 PM »

I will read, for sure.

It just began to read as though the principle intention of the post was to give Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher a kicking, before moving on to the broader issue.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #22 on: March 5, 2012, 09:10:24 PM »
I can't stick up as much for Carra as I can for Gerrard, but I'll have a go anyways. First off, how can Gerrard lack a footballing brain when he can go from playing ACM to playing RB in one game and performing both positions exceedingly well? He's hardly perfect by any means when it comes to positioning and of course his own game has its faults but by his own admission he'd rather be playing farther forward than farther back.

Gerrard doesn't stand up for players when they get bullied by the other teams? Ask Agger how he feels about that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd6LBvf2NDM

Doesn't give his teammates support? Nobody seems to notice when Gerrard is in Suarez's ear constantly before the Man United match at Old Trafford.





Or the reports that he's really taken Andy Carroll under his wing.

And where is this evidence that Carra and Gerrard never gave Lucas any support when he needed it because I've read interviews with Lucas where he cites Gerrard as one of the players who have helped him a lot in his career. Here's an article from 2009 in which Gerrard fully throws his weight behind backing Lucas.

The criticism he receives does get to me, he told the Daily Star Sunday.

I think people forget hes 22 years old. Hes not 27 or 28. The England international also insisted that Lucas would improve with experience, much as he himself has done.

I remember what I was like at that age and I look at where I am now, he continued.

I know that Im a one-million-per cent better player now. I got better with experience.

I made mistakes and learned and it has helped me become the player I am.

Lucas is a good player and I know hell continue to get better.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/29/1180963/steven-gerrard-urges-critics-to-lay-off-liverpools-lucas-leiva

When the youth lads came up to Melwood last season, it was Stevie who showed them around the place and introduced them to everybody. When Ryan Babel spoke out and said he felt lonely within the squad, a couple days later he Tweeted about how he was going into the city centre that day with Stevie to do something with Dirk.



Don't think you'll find Ryan, a foreign player, complaining much about Stevie as a captain.

 That's only half of it to be honest. How many times players have come out and said good things about Stevie as a captain, again you can look at Ryan's reaction to him missing out on the England captaincy or Dirk's. Don't think I've ever read a player come out with negative remarks about Stevie.

Good post.

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #23 on: March 5, 2012, 09:12:31 PM »
I can't stick up as much for Carra as I can for Gerrard, but I'll have a go anyways. First off, how can Gerrard lack a footballing brain when he can go from playing ACM to playing RB in one game and performing both positions exceedingly well? He's hardly perfect by any means when it comes to positioning and of course his own game has its faults but by his own admission he'd rather be playing farther forward than farther back.

Excellent post.

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #24 on: March 5, 2012, 09:12:55 PM »
Same old shit, different title.

Have to say though a nice 'I come to praise Caesar not bury him' start, before the stabbings in the back commenced. I'll give you a bit of credit for that.
Shit post mate. You haven't even bothered to TRY and tackle any of the points I've raised, so what's the point? How am I stabbing them in the back? To do that I'd have to be bullshitting, basically. Where have I done that?

If you can't actually give examples and justifying them then looks to me like you've just read some criticism of two club legends and reflexively shat on the criticism, regardless of content. Which, if that's the case, kind of makes my point about how some fans regard both players as basically being the club, rather than being players at the club, which they are, have always been and remain, regardless of the fact that both of them are utter and complete legends in more ways than I can list in a post that wouldn't run at least the length of this OP. Maybe I'll write that post next week, but not today.

Also those who are just reading this in terms of Gerrard and Carragher are missing wider and much more interesting points to do with the culture at the club, about what leadership even is and how it can be built, if it even can, and about what kind of leaders and culture we want at this club.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #25 on: March 5, 2012, 09:13:45 PM »
I can't stick up as much for Carra as I can for Gerrard, but I'll have a go anyways. First off, how can Gerrard lack a footballing brain when he can go from playing ACM to playing RB in one game and performing both positions exceedingly well? He's hardly perfect by any means when it comes to positioning and of course his own game has its faults but by his own admission he'd rather be playing farther forward than farther back.

Gerrard doesn't stand up for players when they get bullied by the other teams? Ask Agger how he feels about that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd6LBvf2NDM

Doesn't give his teammates support? Nobody seems to notice when Gerrard is in Suarez's ear constantly before the Man United match at Old Trafford.





Or the reports that he's really taken Andy Carroll under his wing.

And where is this evidence that Carra and Gerrard never gave Lucas any support when he needed it because I've read interviews with Lucas where he cites Gerrard as one of the players who have helped him a lot in his career. Here's an article from 2009 in which Gerrard fully throws his weight behind backing Lucas.

The criticism he receives does get to me, he told the Daily Star Sunday.

I think people forget hes 22 years old. Hes not 27 or 28. The England international also insisted that Lucas would improve with experience, much as he himself has done.

I remember what I was like at that age and I look at where I am now, he continued.

I know that Im a one-million-per cent better player now. I got better with experience.

I made mistakes and learned and it has helped me become the player I am.

Lucas is a good player and I know hell continue to get better.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/29/1180963/steven-gerrard-urges-critics-to-lay-off-liverpools-lucas-leiva

When the youth lads came up to Melwood last season, it was Stevie who showed them around the place and introduced them to everybody. When Ryan Babel spoke out and said he felt lonely within the squad, a couple days later he Tweeted about how he was going into the city centre that day with Stevie to do something with Dirk.



Don't think you'll find Ryan, a foreign player, complaining much about Stevie as a captain.

 That's only half of it to be honest. How many times players have come out and said good things about Stevie as a captain, again you can look at Ryan's reaction to him missing out on the England captaincy or Dirk's. Don't think I've ever read a player come out with negative remarks about Stevie.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #26 on: March 5, 2012, 09:15:30 PM »
They don't need to be present every time we sign a young player, i was just giving you examples of times that Gerrard has been directly involved in the signing of 2 promising youth prospects.  Saying that, that is only two times , two times out of hundreds of youth prospects we have signed in the last few years, he hasn't been present for the signing of every English young player either!

But i would go and suggest that the preferential treatment, would probably be down to the language barrier, yet when have other senior players that we seem to commend here in favour of our two local captains ever been directly present when a young player from the country of their origin has signed?
Good points, and as I said before I don't have a problem with some degree of favouritism towards British and especially local players. It's on the pitch where I expect it to stop. I don't know about players being present when signed, but I've already talked about Lucas, and Pepe and Kuyt have also been spoken of as real role models who take a big interest in young players, though more when they reach the first team as far as I can see.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #27 on: March 5, 2012, 09:16:49 PM »
Winters and Haldane, held by their men as the finest leaders they had, are in turn very different from the hairdryer style recommended by some as the ideal form of leadership.
Dalglish and Barnes strike me as two other superb examples. I don't know if you'd agree, having seen them both.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #28 on: March 5, 2012, 09:21:07 PM »
There are always two sides to a coin...

players who care for their club more than you would normally expect are pretty rare and more often than not heroes for the fans, players to look up for the youth and play an important part in marketing the club. Wether its Carra, Terry or Roy Keane, they all played a very important role during their prime and are the players providing the little extra emotion which makes football special.

The flip side is the danger of player power though and I am always sceptical on players being too much involved, more than you would expect from a professional footballer.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 09:26:21 PM by steveeastend »
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #29 on: March 5, 2012, 09:21:08 PM »
If that is the atmosphere, and Lucas did benefit from it, and if he isn't just an incredibly exceptional player with peerless mentality and professionalism, then there should be other examples. We should be able to point to a lot of youngsters who've excelled themselves, or really bettered themselves. How many is that true of since Gerrard and Carragher became senior professionals here?

Are you laying the failure of the academy to produce talented young players at the door of Carra and Gerrard too? Come on mate that's stretching it don't you think. They haven't been able to mentor young pro's coming through because there haven't been any hence the reliance on 'foreign' imports.

Having said that the introduction of Rodolfo and Pep by Rafa has certainly produced at least promising players such as Jay, Flanagan, Robinson and  hopefully the likes of Coady, Suso and particularly Silva who I have high hopes for will also come through. I have no doubt they have all had help and advice from Stevie and Carra. Why would they not? What conceivable reason would they have to ignore these kids who hang on their every word. So what if they tell them a few home truths now and then and don't blow smoke up their arse all day. It's a tough life with many many pitfalls. Maybe they see some of these kids swanning around in their flash motors giving it large round town and think 'little prick'. I fucking know I would. Those that are dedicated, live the fucking monastic life Stevie lives are taught by example not the 'do as I say not as I do' brigade. If you know otherwise HBHR I stand corrected but what I've seen of some of our 'future' players, they have a long long way to go both on and off the pitch.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #30 on: March 5, 2012, 09:28:17 PM »
Shit post mate. You haven't even bothered to TRY and tackle any of the points I've raised, so what's the point? How am I stabbing them in the back? To do that I'd have to be bullshitting, basically. Where have I done that?

If you can't actually give examples and justifying them then looks to me like you've just read some criticism of two club legends and reflexively shat on the criticism, regardless of content. Which, if that's the case, kind of makes my point about how some fans regard both players as basically being the club, rather than being players at the club, which they are, have always been and remain, regardless of the fact that both of them are utter and complete legends in more ways than I can list in a post that wouldn't run at least the length of this OP. Maybe I'll write that post next week, but not today.

Also those who are just reading this in terms of Gerrard and Carragher are missing wider and much more interesting points to do with the culture at the club, about what leadership even is and how it can be built, if it even can, and about what kind of leaders and culture we want at this club.
I'm not reading it fully because I've heard it all before from you, and others like you. I'm just not fueling your agenda driven listen to me OP's

Why not Stick it in the Gerrard thread? Or stick it in the Carragher? Even stick it the Lucas thread FFS; but to have that same old same old debate in another thread is tedious at best. In fact, and I can honestly tell you the truth here, I gave up after the first paragraph, though, I scanned over the rest and knew, and I mean I fucking knew what name would come up as you shining example. Boring tedious and predictable. Though I'm sure those who have continually stuck it to Gerrard and Carragher will be in sooner or later praising your post.

Good luck and good day.
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Offline TomDcs

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #31 on: March 5, 2012, 09:31:04 PM »
I can't stick up as much for Carra as I can for Gerrard, but I'll have a go anyways. First off, how can Gerrard lack a footballing brain when he can go from playing ACM to playing RB in one game and performing both positions exceedingly well? He's hardly perfect by any means when it comes to positioning and of course his own game has its faults but by his own admission he'd rather be playing farther forward than farther back.

Gerrard doesn't stand up for players when they get bullied by the other teams? Ask Agger how he feels about that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd6LBvf2NDM

Doesn't give his teammates support? Nobody seems to notice when Gerrard is in Suarez's ear constantly before the Man United match at Old Trafford.





Or the reports that he's really taken Andy Carroll under his wing.

And where is this evidence that Carra and Gerrard never gave Lucas any support when he needed it because I've read interviews with Lucas where he cites Gerrard as one of the players who have helped him a lot in his career. Here's an article from 2009 in which Gerrard fully throws his weight behind backing Lucas.

The criticism he receives does get to me, he told the Daily Star Sunday.

I think people forget hes 22 years old. Hes not 27 or 28. The England international also insisted that Lucas would improve with experience, much as he himself has done.

I remember what I was like at that age and I look at where I am now, he continued.

I know that Im a one-million-per cent better player now. I got better with experience.

I made mistakes and learned and it has helped me become the player I am.

Lucas is a good player and I know hell continue to get better.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/29/1180963/steven-gerrard-urges-critics-to-lay-off-liverpools-lucas-leiva

When the youth lads came up to Melwood last season, it was Stevie who showed them around the place and introduced them to everybody. When Ryan Babel spoke out and said he felt lonely within the squad, a couple days later he Tweeted about how he was going into the city centre that day with Stevie to do something with Dirk.



Don't think you'll find Ryan, a foreign player, complaining much about Stevie as a captain.

 That's only half of it to be honest. How many times players have come out and said good things about Stevie as a captain, again you can look at Ryan's reaction to him missing out on the England captaincy or Dirk's. Don't think I've ever read a player come out with negative remarks about Stevie.

Good post. Think the OP is good too, but a bit of balance is required. We don't know everything they do off the pitch, and I agree they could improve on the pitch leadership in some ways but they're woethy role models in the main.
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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #32 on: March 5, 2012, 09:37:07 PM »
I can't stick up as much for Carra as I can for Gerrard, but I'll have a go anyways. First off, how can Gerrard lack a footballing brain when he can go from playing ACM....
First of all, brilliant post and thank you for reading, thinking about and responding to points raised. Now to tackle them! :)

OK. So, I never said that Gerrard's stupid in football terms, I just think it's a relative weakness for him. I don't think he's a VERY intelligent footballer, though he is probably above average/good. Lucas is intelligent, Alonso is intelligent, Xavi is a fucking genius. Gerrard is, in my opinion, a fair distance below those. But he's light years ahead of, say, Ashley Young, and he's a fair bit more intelligent than Rooney, for example, who isn't stupid either. His versatility isn't in doubt - but that isn't the same as intelligence. 
Quote
Gerrard doesn't stand up for players when they get bullied by the other teams? Ask Agger how he feels about that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd6LBvf2NDM
I never said he didn't. I said he wasn't consistent about it.
Quote
Doesn't give his teammates support? Nobody seems to notice when Gerrard is in Suarez's ear constantly before the Man United match at Old Trafford.
Same again. I never said he didn't, I said he wasn't consistent.
Quote
Or the reports that he's really taken Andy Carroll under his wing.

...

Don't think you'll find Ryan, a foreign player, complaining much about Stevie as a captain.
Great examples, but ones I never denied. Again, I want consistency, and where I want it is on the pitch. So Carroll is close to him. That's great for Carroll, and good on Gerrard. What about Downing then? Or Henderson? Or Skrtel when he joined? Are they less worthy of that level of support? If so, how come? Of course players are friends and enemies of the pitch. That's only natural, they're all people. But on the pitch I expect it to stop. Suarez is almost an example that makes my point. Now of course we don't know what's being said so it's pure speculation, but Suarez has been class from minute one, and hasn't really changed his play from then till now. So unless it's moral support based on recent events, does Suarez really need it that much? Does he really need it more than other players at the club? As I say though, that's highly speculative and more just a little bit to think about.
Quote
That's only half of it to be honest. How many times players have come out and said good things about Stevie as a captain, again you can look at Ryan's reaction to him missing out on the England captaincy or Dirk's. Don't think I've ever read a player come out with negative remarks about Stevie.
I wouldn't expect any player to come out with anything negative about any other player while they're both here. I'd think a lot less of ex-players openly slating other players/managers here until, at least, a good amount of time has passed. I'd also expect praise for the captain regardless.

That said, I don't doubt the influence Gerrard has had on many players, and I don't doubt that he's a fucking fantastic person and player to be on the right side of. That still doesn't make him a good leader, in my eyes. Haven't we all had bosses who bend over backwards for certain employees, yet treat others like dogshit, for no better reason than personal favouritism, than because they just get on as people? Now I'm not saying Gerrard is a shit to those he doesn't get on with, but he is inconsistent. That isn't even a matter of opinion for me, it's been obvious on the pitch for years. Is that really a good thing in a leader, especially one as iconic and influential as Gerrard has become, one who's reached a status that is very, very hard for a manager to tackle, let alone other players?

There's one more point I wanted to address, though it's a bit out of the order of your post:
Quote
And where is this evidence that Carra and Gerrard never gave Lucas any support when he needed it because I've read interviews with Lucas where he cites Gerrard as one of the players who have helped him a lot in his career. Here's an article from 2009 in which Gerrard fully throws his weight behind backing Lucas.
I thought I was pretty specific in that my problem with Gerrard in terms of Lucas isn't, and hasn't ever been off the pitch. I should have made it clearer that Gerrard's support off the pitch was vocal and no doubt important. But to me it isn't nearly as important as support off the pitch. There's one example that will live with me vividly from the '09-'10 season. Gerrard demanded the ball from Lucas with a shout, gesturing impatiently at his own feet. Lucas passed it to feet instantly, and with perfect weight of pass. Gerrard got it caught under his feet, turned and fell over clumsily. He got straight up and shouted at Lucas.

I don't ever want to see that from a team captain to a young player. I don't see any reason why that should happen even once, yet that kind of thing is not at all an isolated example from either player. If a player does something like that, then I expect them to hold their hands up, acknowledge the mistake. If that were Lucas, he would have praised the pass, I would almost bet my life on it. I've never, or very, very rarely seen that kind of thing from senior players at Man U, and I think that's a real key difference between the two clubs. Of course, things like that can happen on occasion, which is what apologies are for. But if it happens more than once, or regularly, it makes me think less of a player, and much more so if that player is a captain. Not enough to make me thing Gerrard is a bad player or even necessarily a bad captain, but enough for me to think he's a long way from being an ideal captain, and for me it's debatable whether he's even a particularly good one.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 09:40:37 PM by hesbighesred »
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Offline jackh

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #33 on: March 5, 2012, 09:42:12 PM »
You see, this was always going to happen and that was my problem with the opening post.  You surely couldn't fail to anticipate that the debate would swing this way?

Agree with this:

In fact, and I can honestly tell you the truth here, I gave up after the first paragraph, though, I scanned over the rest and knew, and I mean I fucking knew what name would come up as you shining example. Boring tedious and predictable. Though I'm sure those who have continually stuck it to Gerrard and Carragher will be in sooner or later praising your post.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 09:44:01 PM by jackh »
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Offline Rococo

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #34 on: March 5, 2012, 09:44:46 PM »
Good post HBHR (as always) though I don't agree with all of it.

I think you make an assumption that because they were very supportive of Spearing and they weren't as vocal about others, that they weren't supportive of them (Pacheco, Gulacsi, Suso etc.). I don't think we've any way of knowing this and for all you or I know, Gerrard may be there after training showing Suso how to take a corner (hope not)! For me that's a fairly fundamental flaw in your point.

Secondly, you mention Lucas has guided players like Robinson and Flanagan, but what are you basing that on?  My recollection is that Carragher talked Flanagan through his first game in a very supportive way.  I know he's another English player, but it shows that Carragher also has that more 'mentoring' side to his leadership.

The on pitch leadership is not dissimilar to other sorts of leadership, in that the same goals can be achieved through different styles.  Gerrard and Carragher do seem to be more of an authoritative style, but that can be equally as valuable as any other. I remember the abuse of Roy Hodgson's 'arm round the shoulder'style.  Is that really what we want from our leaders?

I know that they both may have had more influence than they should during the Hodgson era, but I think that was more due to Hodgsons leadership than anything about their characters. I'd hope that under Kenny, they don't need to take the same role.

To reiterate - I think your post was a good thought provoking one.  I just don't agree with some of your arguments.

Offline TLW 84

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #35 on: March 5, 2012, 09:45:18 PM »
Suspision and supposition. not unusual when discussing these two. Forget the service, forget the contributions, let's just post thousands of words about stuff we couldn't even possibly know about.

If you want to know what Gerrard's really like, ask Kuyt about how much he admires his captaincy skills and efforts behind the scenes.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #36 on: March 5, 2012, 09:45:28 PM »
If O'Shea had come through our youth system, but Degen had joined Manchester United on a free, who do you think we'd remember as a better player? Honestly? My money would be on Degen, and it's because of the atmosphere at the respective clubs, an atmosphere that senior players have a real responsiblity for.


sorry hbhr stuck with it to this point though I dont agree with a large chunk of it but I aint having this bit at all - its a travesty of a statement - dont waste your money just give it to me or charity.

now dont get me wrong Carra gobbing off and Gerrard sulking are not their most appealing traits and I basically agree with you that neither is my ideal leader but you've constructed a whole world based on very little imho.

didn't Flanagan say Carra talked him through the whole game on his debut (yeah I know he's best mates with his dad), hasn't Kelly expressly thanked Carra and plenty of youngsters spoken of how Gerrard has helped them?

sound like a broken record but the 90 mins we get to see are a  fraction of what actually happens at the club - now maybe training is worse - maybe at Melwood Carragher and Gerrard absolutely cane the youngsters destroy, their confidence and leave them as gibbering wrecks which may explain why no decent kids have come through for 10 years, on the other hand no decent kids might have come through for 10 years.

what about Reina balling out everybody - constructive or just not leadership material?
Suarez shredding Kelly on Saturday? It happens and it happens at United - Schmeichel springs to mind - its a lot easier to keep a smile on your face when you're winning though and its also a lot easier to see it as constructive.

Are you really saying United have played in a superior spirit of mutual support for the last 20 years???

Carragher is too highly strung on the pitch and rather than calming down he seems to be getting more frustrated, he organises and cajoles but I've often thought when captain its detracted from his game rather than added - he doesn't really need the armband to do what he does, Gerrard has always worn his heart on his sleeve and while he can be inspirational he can also be a very negative influence (we saw both in that classic game against Olympiacos) I'd agree that ideally you want a more consistent and determined leader than either of them. Someone that will be force of will make you believe you are going to win. That your next chance, and there will be one, wont go wide, wont  hit the post, that however well the keeper plays you will eventually beat him, that however young you are you've been selected to wear the red shirt and that makes you a very very very good player. I think both Carra and Gerrard would have been 10% better themselves if we'd had that type of player - to be honest I dont think we've had that type of 'winner' for a very long time.

I am not sure Lucas fits the bill to be honest and I know you doubt the lad at your peril, I think what he has achieved has been fantastic but I'm not sure that makes him a captain - he breathes quiet determination, reliability, calmness, but I'm not sure that means leadership.

in the band of brothers analogy (which I'd agree is probably the best tv series around bar none) Winters is a combat leader - cool, calm and decisive, he controls and dictates events, he's proactive , he makes things happen Lucas will need to start dictating games rather than providing a platform for others to do so if he wants to step into that type of leadership role. Spears on the other hand just shoots people ( or does he? insider joke) I quite like that approach.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #37 on: March 5, 2012, 09:46:38 PM »
Why not Stick it in the Gerrard thread? Or stick it in the Carragher? Even stick it the Lucas thread FFS
It started in the Coates thread, as a response to another post, but I made it a topic because it goes way beyond Gerrard/Carra/Good/Bad. It doesn't doubt their quality as players overall, nor their status as legends overall, nor their personalities. I stated that on balance I think they're a positive influence on young players, and that in terms of what they've done for the club overall, and even more so for the fans and the city, that they are absolute fucking legends of the highest order. I would hope that someone as intelligent as you would see that, and see the debate you could be having.

Quote
...but to have that same old same old debate in another thread is tedious at best. In fact, and I can honestly tell you the truth here, I gave up after the first paragraph
But instead, you did EXACTLY what I thought you had, which is see that it talks about Gerrard and Carragher, decide that it's worthless criticism, and fucked it off completely without even having the courtesy to read it.

Yet you still felt qualified to give your opinion on the post, and to not just dismiss it completely but actively slate it, everything it's trying to do and, to a certain extent, me as well.

This post worse than your first utter dogshit post in this thread. Do me a favour and get out of the thread, and maybe we can actually turn this into the worthwhile debate it could be.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 02:13:04 AM by hesbighesred »
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Offline ReddyMac

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #38 on: March 5, 2012, 09:48:55 PM »
Though you bring up an interesting discussion, I still feel Lucas cannot represent the club better than Gerrad & Carra,NOT YET anyway.

Lets take the academy and young players for instance and have a look from their point of view.

On one hand you have a born,bred scouser in Steven Gerrard who has come into the first team at a very young age from our Academy,played at different positions including full back and goes on to be one of the best midfielders in the world, winning the Champions league,FA cup(particularly his influence in these victories) and in general the way he inspires his team in multiple instances to victory. Not to forget he also captained his national team in the World Cup finals 2010(irrespective of its result). You should also take to account that his goals and the way he has scored them that often influence youngsters. He also had to go through a rough time as a teenager to get into the first team in terms of size(also had a foot injury as a boy) but his determination and hardwork has made him the player he is. You must especially consider this point,as most youngsters can relate to this while trying to break into the first team.

On the other hand, you have a defensive midfield who has come from in from a foreign land went straight into the first team. Struggled initially but his shear hardwork and determination has helped him blossom into plausibly one of the best defensive midfielders in the world before his injury.

As a youngster ideally, you should take a leaf out each of their books but if you were to choose, who would you pick? Who do you think represents Liverpool FC better from the young player's point of view?

According to me, Lucas should ideally replace Gerrard as captain in the FUTURE but as of now, Gerrard is who everyone looks upto when in reference to LFC, whether we like it or not.

Lets take Messi and Barca for example.Messi is brilliant, a very hardworking player who doesn't have an air about him. He sets up everyone in good positions and is ideal for any player in football to look upto,but you see Puyol being the captain,Xavi as vice-captain and Pique as 3rd captain of Barcelona. Hate to say this but when you represent a club it is a HUGE bonus that you are from the same city and come through the academy.

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Re: On pitch Leadership, Role-Models and the Youth
« Reply #39 on: March 5, 2012, 09:50:35 PM »
Bit of a naughty post that, full of assumption and a less-than-brilliantly concealed hostility to two local lads, one of whom is one of our best ever.
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