Author Topic: Remembering the Bradford fire  (Read 31293 times)

Online oldfordie

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2015, 07:17:26 pm »
Absolutely gobsmacked. Just beyond belief. how was this not all brought out in the open at the time. poor lad has fought for years to find the truth, nothing but respect for him, would really like to say more, not a good idea at the moment.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2015, 07:20:21 pm »
This is heartbreaking.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2015, 07:38:54 pm »
Holy fuck. Unreal discovery

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2015, 07:44:07 pm »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2015, 08:29:03 pm »
I'd wait for a bit more info before jumping to conclusions. We already know the Bradford chairman was a gobshite whose negligence and lack of maintenance was identified before the fire. We know they considered prosecuting him for manslaughter.

Some of those fires had a very tenuous link to Heginbotham or were minor and put out in twenty minutes. There's something there but it could simply be that he's a gobshite property owner who took no care with fire precautions.

It's worth bearing in mind that one of the arguments that's still used against us is that it can't be a coincidence that Liverpool were involved in two of the worst football stadium disasters and therefore...

Even the author doesn't claim that he set the fire deliberately as an insurance scam.

Personally I think Heginbotham was a scumbag whose negligence caused the death of 56 people in the most horrific circumstances. I haven't seen anything in what I read to suggest anything else.

I feel for him but there is no comparison between what is presented here and the work done by the likes of Phil Scraton, the independent panel, RAWK's own Nikki (HFD) and many, many others. And the work is still going on while the inquests are being held, poring over hundreds of thousands of documents looking for the kind of evidence that would stand up in court.

As I say, I'll read the book and look at what the evidence is before making my mind up.
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Offline DutchRed

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2015, 08:31:01 pm »
Nine fires looks dodgy, unless you're a chemistry teacher..
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2015, 08:33:12 pm »
At face value that sounds dodgy as fuck.
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Offline Slick_Beef

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2015, 08:34:31 pm »
I'd wait for a bit more info before jumping to conclusions. We already know the Bradford chairman was a gobshite whose negligence and lack of maintenance was identified before the fire. We know they considered prosecuting him for manslaughter.

Some of those fires had a very tenuous link to Heginbotham or were minor and put out in twenty minutes. There's something there but it could simply be that he's a gobshite property owner who took no care with fire precautions.

It's worth bearing in mind that one of the arguments that's still used against us is that it can't be a coincidence that Liverpool were involved in two of the worst football stadium disasters and therefore...

Even the author doesn't claim that he set the fire deliberately as an insurance scam.

Personally I think Heginbotham was a scumbag whose negligence caused the death of 56 people in the most horrific circumstances. I haven't seen anything in what I read to suggest anything else.

I feel for him but there is no comparison between what is presented here and the work done by the likes of Phil Scraton, the independent panel, RAWK's own Nikki (HFD) and many, many others. And the work is still going on while the inquests are being held, poring over hundreds of thousands of documents looking for the kind of evidence that would stand up in court.

As I say, I'll read the book and look at what the evidence is before making my mind up.

Yes, that's an important point. I hope this at least leads to a closer look being taken at these events but I agree that it's still too early to jump to any conclusions.

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2015, 08:37:10 pm »
Interesting but I'm going to read the book before jumping to any conclusions.



After the interview on the local news that's exactly wants to author wants people to do, read the book and make your own conclusions. Interview here - all starts about a minute in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05qhyng/look-north-yorkshire-15042015
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 08:40:56 pm by Ziltoid »

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2015, 08:58:42 pm »
I find it hard to believe if it was deliberate it he would do it on a matchplay,rather than at night, if you were going to commit fraud.
Why do it on a populated stand on a game that was televised. He goes from fraudster to psychopath. It's a huge.jump.
More evidence needed.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2015, 09:12:33 pm »
After the interview on the local news that's exactly wants to author wants people to do, read the book and make your own conclusions.

Good. It's a shame that the way   it's presented leads people to a conclusion he doesn't draw himself (see above). Let's face it - Heginbotham is an easy target. He was obviously a c*nt responsible for the deaths of 56 football fans, he was a club owner, maybe a dodgy businessman, negligent and there's an obvious parallel between Bradford and Hillsborough. And he's dead. But that's not proof of anything. 

I hope there's some better research in the actual book. We know what the insurance claims were. Did he speak to loss adjusters to find out the value of the goods or property that was lost?  It should be fairly easy to establish what the cost of rebuilding the stand was (*edit - it's on Wiki - Ł2.7 m). If the cost of the stand was half the insurance claim then you'd have a case for insurance fraud. If the cost of the stand was the same or more than the insurance payout then it falls apart. And from the Guardian story the insurance claim was Ł900,000 and the rebuilding cost was Ł2.7 million. They needed grants and gifts to make up the difference - so in terms of insurance fraud there's nothing there.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2015, 09:20:42 pm »
I find it hard to believe if it was deliberate it he would do it on a matchplay,rather than at night, if you were going to commit fraud.
Why do it on a populated stand on a game that was televised. He goes from fraudster to psychopath. It's a huge.jump.
More evidence needed.
It would be more likely the fire would be caused by a cigarette, match etc I guess.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2015, 09:30:16 pm »
It would be more likely the fire would be caused by a cigarette, match etc I guess.

Indeed - two years later I just missed being caught in the Kings Cross fire which was caused by a build up of rubbish under the wooden escalators and almost certainly started by a lit match.

It's easy to knock 'health and safety gone mad' but it's easy to forget that everyone smoked indoors (and in then stands and on trains and buses) in those days, and health and safety legislation was more lax. A few fires in some industrial buildings contains highly inflammable stock (stuffed toys, rubber, plastic foam etc) in 1970s Bradford is not a story.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2015, 10:03:56 pm »
It would be more likely the fire would be caused by a cigarette, match etc I guess.

Agreed if your going to commit arson for insurance fraud, then you'd do it in the middle of the night when no one is around, like the then Doncaster owner Ken Richardson did.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2015, 10:10:18 pm »
It would be as easy to jump to conclusions as it would to dismiss it out of hand. What we do know is that this terrible disaster happened at a time when the establishment's view of football related incidents ranged from complete negligence to total cover up. If there's anything left uninvestigated or botched then I hope there is a review so those who suffered and are still suffering can remove the pain of doubt and injustice.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #95 on: April 15, 2015, 10:49:56 pm »
Agreed if your going to commit arson for insurance fraud, then you'd do it in the middle of the night when no one is around, like the then Doncaster owner Ken Richardson did.

Exactly - you don't pay someone to set an insurance fire with 6,000 potential witnesses at the match and millions on TV. And why risk going down in history as one of the worst mass-murders in history by setting fire to a stand full of people, when you could burn it down empty and achieve the same result with the risk of a few months inside at the worst?

The more you look at it the more it falls apart.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #96 on: April 15, 2015, 11:02:56 pm »
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #97 on: April 15, 2015, 11:05:11 pm »
It would be as easy to jump to conclusions as it would to dismiss it out of hand. What we do know is that this terrible disaster happened at a time when the establishment's view of football related incidents ranged from complete negligence to total cover up. If there's anything left uninvestigated or botched then I hope there is a review so those who suffered and are still suffering can remove the pain of doubt and injustice.

Something that we understand more than most.

Hang on. What is being implied is that one individual callously and deliberately murdered 56 people live on TV, and could have killed a couple of thousand, for insurance money. Nothing to do with the establishment or cover-ups.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 11:07:26 pm by Alan_X »
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #98 on: April 15, 2015, 11:50:34 pm »
Hang on. What is being implied is that one individual callously and deliberately murdered 56 people live on TV, and could have killed a couple of thousand, for insurance money. Nothing to do with the establishment or cover-ups.

The point I'm trying to make is that I hope both the Poppelwell inquiry and the inquests considered all the facts thoroughly and didn't submit to establishment pressure. The victims and survivors deserve that. I'm not concerned with implications, conjecture or hearsay from anyone with or without an agenda.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2015, 12:35:24 am »
The point I'm trying to make is that I hope both the Poppelwell inquiry and the inquests considered all the facts thoroughly and didn't submit to establishment pressure. The victims and survivors deserve that. I'm not concerned with implications, conjecture or hearsay from anyone with or without an agenda.

I agree - I've just been looking at a really good site that has loads of information about the Bradford fire and was reading through the court transcript of the case against the council and the club. There are interviews with a couple of the stewards and with Susan Fletcher (Mark Fletcher's mother) who agreed to be the test case that was used to take the club and council to court. That was separate to the Popplewell enquiry.

The reports on the fire risk under the stand and the descriptions of it, including a recorded interview with Heginbotham, coupled with the location of the seat of the fire, mean it would have had to have been started deliberately by someone actually in the stand itself standing amongst the crowd. The reason the litter had accumulated was because that whole area was inaccessible.

The poor lad lost three generations of his family and was the only one to survive. He must suffer dreadfully and it's understandable that he's looking for a more 'satisfying' (I can't think of a better word) explanation for the loss of so many than a discarded cigarette.

The responsibility for the deaths if 56 was the treatment of fans as animals, a lack of care and attention, unenforced regulations and shambolic operating procedures. This just diverts attention from all those who were responsible and critisised in the Popplewell enquiry and in the court case and puts the focus on one, dead ex-owner. If this was twenty or thirty years ago he would have been the perfect scapegoat. 

I will read his book but I'll also look through all the other evidence (Bradford University has loads of documents and archive video, audio and transcripts) and see what comes out of it.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2015, 08:44:47 am »
Fletcher claims all the evidence for his theory is on public record, but that much of it was not considered (ignored, wilfully or not) by the Popplewell Inquiry. I haven't read the book but it seems he sets great store on a report by the Fire Research Station which appears to undermine the 'discarded cig' theory and other facts about the fire.

Like others I'm sceptical as to why a fire like this would be arranged on a match day and none of the reports answer that question. I look forward to reading the book. It's clear, regardless of his conclusions, that it's a stunning piece of research.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2015, 09:04:02 am »
Being devil's avocate here but if he was callous enough, starting it on a matchday makes it much easier to point the blame elsewhere like a cigarrette/match does it not? After all the Docaster owner was caught when he tried it at night.

Though I think on balance it looks more likely that Heginbotham was a negligent shithead rather than a complete psychopath, still makes him culpable for what happened though.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2015, 09:37:19 am »
I'm not too familiar with all the details regarding this so wouldn't want to make any speculation, but it certainly looks like this should thoroughly be investigated further, even just to help give closure to the families. Accusations and theories like this must cause a lot of distress for them, but potentially not knowing the truth obviously hurts a whole lot more.

We know full well the hurt that an inquiry can cause when not done properly and when all evidence is not looked at. Hopefully this will trigger another look and allow as much justice and closure that can be achieved so long after an event. Hearts go out to the victims families. Must be a terrible thing to read for them.

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2015, 09:39:53 am »
Read this on the way to work this morning. Surely the uncovering of such precedent should ensure a fresh inquiry? It certainly wasn't known (or at least recognised) at the time, as far as I understand.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2015, 09:59:36 am »
The picture of that stand on fire used in the link in the opening post is just absolutely horrific.

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2015, 01:34:07 pm »
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/16/oliver-popplewell-bradford-valley-parade-disaster

The former high court judge who led the inquiry into the Valley Parade fire in 1985 has called on police to look at the “remarkable number” of fires allegedly connected to Bradford City’s then chairman “to see if there was anything sinister”.

Sir Oliver Popplewell, who led the original inquiry that ruled the blaze that killed 56 people was an accident started by a discarded cigarette or match, defended his original verdict and the timescale of the original probe. But although he maintained that any suggestion of arson was “bizarre” he has now called on police to look again at the other fires at businesses connected with Stafford Heginbotham uncovered by the author Martin Fletcher, who survived but lost his brother, father, uncle and grandfather in the disaster.

“I don’t think it’s going to affect what we decided but I think it is important from a public point of view that the police look at the other fires and see if there was anything sinister. It is a remarkable number,” said Popplewell. “I think it’s important to satisfy people’s minds that the other fires are unconnected.”

Popplewell earlier trenchantly stood by his verdict that there was no evidence of arson, reached in just five days in the weeks following the disaster on 11 May 1985. A new book, serialised by the Guardian, claims the fire at Bradford’s Valley Parade stadium was one of at least nine blazes at businesses owned by or associated with Heginbotham, who died in 1995.

Fletcher does not make any direct allegations in the new book but said Heginbotham’s history with fires, which resulted in payouts totalling Ł27m in today’s terms, warranted further investigation. “Could any man really be as unlucky as Heginbotham had been?” he asks.

Popplewell, now 87, had earlier said that he remained convinced that the fire, which claimed 56 victims, was “undoubtedly” started by accident by a discarded match or cigarette, despite the new evidence. “As to how it happened, there wasn’t any serious dispute,” he told the Guardian following the revelations published on Wednesday.

“Everyone accepted that at the particular place where the fire was first detected, something had gone through a hole in the stand and that was where the fire started. I find the suggestion absolutely bizarre, frankly.”

Popplewell’s inquiry lasted five days and was conjoined with a parallel investigation into the death of a Birmingham City fan at a home game with Leeds United on the same day as the Bradford fire, the 15-year-old supporter dying after violent clashes led to the collapse of a wall.

In his book, Fletcher, who spent 15 years re-examining evidence related to the fire, criticises the limited remit and short timescale of the inquiry and painstakingly questions whether it properly considered all of the evidence. Popplewell, though, defended the speed with which the inquiry was conducted.

“It was obviously very important to have an inquiry immediately,” he said. “One doesn’t want an inquiry lasting five years, as happened in Ireland or in other places where they have gone on for ever. The facts were absolutely not in dispute.

“There was no reason to make any more inquiries than we did. Subsequently there were civil actions between the various parties. I’m sure if there was anything untoward it would have come out in those civil actions. I wouldn’t say it was cut and dried but it was about as simple a finding of fact as anything I’ve ever been involved in.”

The disaster occurred at a time, according to Fletcher’s book, when Heginbotham was in desperate financial trouble – and two days after he discovered it would cost Ł2m to bring the ground up to safety standards required by Bradford’s promotion from the old Third Division (now League One).

Speaking to the BBC, Popplewell reiterated that he believed the claims were “nonsense”, saying: “I’m sorry to spoil what is obviously a very good story but I’m afraid it’s nonsense for a number of reasons.”

The retired judge said the main flaw in the implication that the fire might have been arson was that the stand involved had no insurance value because it was due for demolition.

He said the fire was examined by experienced and thorough investigators who found nothing suspicious. And he said no question of arson was ever raised in civil legal proceedings.

West Yorkshire police said the force would consider any new evidence concerning the fire. Det Supt Mark Ridley, of the homicide and major inquiry team, said: “The jury at the inquest in 1985 delivered a verdict of misadventure. However, should any evidence come to light which was not available to Her Majesty’s coroner at the original inquest, then we will consider its significance and take appropriate action.”

On Thursday the former sports minister Gerry Sutcliffe said the new allegations did not justify a new inquiry into the disaster. Sutcliffe, MP for Bradford South and deputy leader of Bradford city council at the time of the tragedy, said he knew Heginbotham “flew by the seat of his pants” in terms of the finances of the club, but remains convinced by the conclusion of the inquiry.

The new claims are contained in the book Fifty-Six – The Story of the Bradford Fire, by Martin Fletcher, who was 12 at the time and escaped from the blaze but lost three generations of his family including his father and brother. Fletcher’s 11-year-old brother was the fire’s youngest victim while his father John, 34, uncle Peter, 32, and grandfather Eddie, 63, also died.

The sometimes outspoken Popplewell caused widespread outrage among relatives and survivors of the Hillsborough disaster in 2011 when he questioned their continuing campaign for justice, which eventually resulted in the new inquests currently taking place in Warrington.

“The citizens of Bradford behaved with quiet dignity and great courage. They did not harbour conspiracy theories. They did not seek endless further inquiries,” he wrote then in a letter to the Times.

“They buried their dead, comforted the bereaved and succoured the injured. They organised a sensible compensation scheme and moved on. Is there, perhaps, a lesson there for the Hillsborough campaigners?”
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2015, 01:35:51 pm »
The lad who wrote the book has just been on Jeremy Vines show on radio 2. His account of the day is shocking. A terrible day and the years of suffering for so many.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2015, 01:42:17 pm »
I am not convinced by the Popplewell inquiry - was all rather speedy. Also, the Popplewell's comments re: Hillsborough families in 2011 are rather indicative of his attitude IMHO:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/oct/19/judge-hillsborough-families-conspiracy-theories

And Fletcher's response via David Conn the following day
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/oct/20/bradford-disaster-attacks-judge-hillsborough

I am also very curious as to how Heginbotham kept on getting re-insured or were businesses constantly on fire back then and a history of eight fires is no biggie?

Finally, picked this up on another forum, but isn't this interview with Heginbotham a year after the fire a tad weird?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLK4k1vIP30

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2015, 03:41:14 pm »
Apparently , Martin Fletcher was at Hillsborough in 1989 also , as linked in the post above.

Below is the article taken from the Guardian in 2011 in which Fletcher makes strong criticisms of both Popplewell and the Popplelwell report , and makes comparisons to Hillsborough :

"A survivor of the 1985 fire at Bradford City in which 56 people died has profoundly criticised the judge who conducted the official inquiry into that disaster and who this week unfavourably compared the response of families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster to those of Bradford. Martin Fletcher, who lost four close relatives in the fire, pointed out that Mr Justice Popplewell's report had failed to overhaul safety at football grounds and have fences in front of stands removed, and that Hillsborough then happened four years later.
 
Popplewell said in a letter to the Times that the Hillsborough families are "harbouring conspiracy theories'" rather than behaving with "quiet dignity and great courage" like the Bradford families did.
 
Fletcher was 12 when he emerged alive from Valley Parade's inferno, but his father, John, brother Andrew, grandfather Eddie and uncle Peter, with whom he had been attending the Third Division match between Bradford City and Lincoln City, all died. He was also at the FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough four years later, at which 96 Liverpool supporters died.
 
"For Popplewell to say that the Hillsborough families are 'harbouring conspiracy theories' while the Bradford families 'organised a sensible compensation scheme and moved on', is an absolute travesty of the truth and a disgrace," Fletcher said.
 
"I have many unanswered questions still about the fire in which four of my family died, as does my mother. Popplewell's report was nowhere close to the quality of Lord Justice Taylor's report after Hillsborough, and since reading it as an adult I have always been very disappointed in it and considered it a poor piece of work.
 
"Rather than lecture the Hillsborough families not to ask questions, the judge should ask himself why, after a disaster caused by a negligent approach to safety at football, despite his report, standards in football were allowed to remain so lamentably poor that another disaster happened at Hillsborough just four years later."
 
Fletcher, now an accountant, also wholly rejected Popplewell's assertion that "a sensible compensation scheme" was organised after Bradford. In fact, there was a charitable disaster appeal, no organised compensation scheme, and his mother, Susan, took a negligence action, which she had to fund herself, against the club and West Yorkshire county council, for its safety oversight of Valley Parade.
 
In the high court, both were found to have been negligent in allowing litter to build up over many years under the void of the club's wooden main stand, and to have done nothing to clear it despite explicit written warnings that it was a fire risk. Two years later, the club were found to be two-thirds liable, the council one third.
 
Popplewell, in his report, wrote that his task was "not to allocate blame", and that he was sympathetic to the club, saying that lower division football was "run on shoestring".
 
That season Bradford City, owned by the motor trade entrepreneur Jack Tordoff and the chairman Stafford Heginbotham, fielded a side good enough to win the Third Division championship (what is now League One), while doing little safety or maintenance work on the ground.
 
After the fire, Valley Parade was rebuilt with public grants and insurance money, and Popplewell himself returned to Bradford to open it. Shortly afterwards, Heginbotham and Tordoff sold their shares in the club at a profit.
 
Fletcher has spent years in his 20s and 30s trying to understand the disaster, including a detailed reading of Popplewell's report and the evidence given to the inquiry, which has left him deeply dissatisfied.
 
The judge held his inquiry just over three weeks after the fire, and it lasted little more than a week. After Hillsborough, the West Midlands police force was appointed to investigate independently, three months were spent gathering evidence and Taylor heard arguments in detail in his inquiry over several weeks.
 
Taylor's report clearly identified who was to blame and how the disaster happened, which the bereaved Hillsborough families are able to point to 22 years later, in their fight to understand why nobody in authority took responsibility, with South Yorkshire police instead blaming the disaster on supporters.
 
Fletcher argues Popplewell's inquiry was too quick, he believes there should have been an independent investigating police force brought in, and he is frustrated by what he feels is Popplewell's failure to allocate responsibility clearly.
 
"He stated that a discarded cigarette was the likely cause, but never identified the smoker or detailed the circumstances in which that happened. Nor did he properly expose and allocate blame for the scale of negligence which lay behind the disaster."
 
Fletcher, who had family in Bradford but grew up in Nottingham, was in the Forest end at Hillsborough.
 
"I cried after that, in my mother's car, asking why, as people had survived at Bradford because there were no fences in front of the main stand, there were still fences up at football grounds four years later. Popplewell made precious few useful safety recommendations, and instead, soon after that, football supporters were going to have an identity card-type scheme imposed on them.
 
"Taylor, after Hillsborough, emphatically insisted that football must be forced by legislation wholly to improve its safety culture. Popplewell did no such thing after Bradford, and when he talks about 'moving on', yes, supporters moved on to another disaster, in which 96 people were killed.
 
"He should be asking himself some searching questions, rather than lecture the families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster that they should just accept it.
 
"In all these years, Popplewell has never spoken to me or my mother, who lost four family members. He should not presume to speak on our behalf. Perhaps he should act with 'quiet dignity' himself."

Oh , and for what it's worth , Popplewell can fuck himself - incompetent twat !
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2015, 04:21:45 pm »
Being devil's avocate here but if he was callous enough, starting it on a matchday makes it much easier to point the blame elsewhere like a cigarrette/match does it not? After all the Docaster owner was caught when he tried it at night.

Though I think on balance it looks more likely that Heginbotham was a negligent shithead rather than a complete psychopath, still makes him culpable for what happened though.

The alibi is the seeming absurdity of the claim itself.  You can question the risk of doing something like this on a match day, live on TV, but on the flip side you can just as easily point out it has taken 30 years to even pull this into the spotlight.  I think if you consider the establishment's attitude of the time - "They're just football fans" - then there IS a sense of dismissal; the authorities might not look too closely at this, instead taking the situation at face value. 

On balance though, whilst it wouldn't surprise me if his first thought on witnessing this tragedy was: "Well at least there's the insurance", being a callous, insensitive, money grabbing negligent twat doesn't make you a pre-meditated murderer. 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 04:29:57 pm by Red Beret »
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2015, 04:47:00 pm »
Think I will read the book with an open mind and see what this fella's got to say before having an opinion on this. The people attached to this club know more than most what's it's like to be  disbelieved by an entire nation with all and sundry telling us we were wrong and they knew best.

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2015, 05:20:32 pm »
Popplewell is a c*nt

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2015, 05:55:04 pm »
Another interview suggesting that things were overlooked. This time with someone who saved a lot of lives on that day.

Hard to know what to think. Andy Burnham is calling for the police to review the evidence. That seems a reasonable thing to do.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2015, 06:37:11 pm »
It would be as easy to jump to conclusions as it would to dismiss it out of hand. What we do know is that this terrible disaster happened at a time when the establishment's view of football related incidents ranged from complete negligence to total cover up. If there's anything left uninvestigated or botched then I hope there is a review so those who suffered and are still suffering can remove the pain of doubt and injustice.

Something that we understand more than most.

Horrible story, this. Alan is right - we need further investigation before jumping to conclusions.

However, it sticks in the craw that Lord Justice Popplewell didn't get to the bottom of this at the time, and that he had the bloody cheek a few years ago to say that the Hillsborough families should move on, and accept their loss like the Bradford families. Well, thank God even one of the Bradford bereaved hasn't let it go, and he's uncovered what should have been fairly easy for Popplewell's team to discover themselves.

Even if the fire wasn't started deliberately - and I can't believe anyone would have deliberately started a fire in the ground on a match day, with tens of thousands of spectators in there - the point is that Heginbotham was the owner of multiple properties that went up in flames. Surely the onus was on him to ensure that Valley Parade was not a fire hazard.

A couple of things to bear in mind:

Bradford city council was committed to renovating the Odsal stadium, to help put Bradford Northern rugby club back on the map; so their focus might have been elsewhere.

I think Heginbotham took over in 1983, and it was well known at the time that Valley Parade was in a state of neglect. The fans knew it too: read The City Gent fanzine, the BCFC fanzine, from November 1984. They pondered whether BCFC might not have been better moving to Odsal too, to escape the neglect and 'crumbling facilities' at Valley Parade.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2015, 08:08:56 pm »
I've just downloaded the ebook and skim read through it. I'll write in more detail but essentially it's his life story, his experience at Bradford and also at Hillsborough in the Forest end. There are some interesting bits about the Popplewell enquiry and Chapter 9 makes some good points about the treatment of football fans by the establishment and governments not just under Thatcher but for years before that. Chapter 10 also contains interesting stuff about West Yorkshire Council and the deficiencies/lack of enforcement at Bradford. Chapter 11 makes some valid criticisms of the Popplewell enquiry.

I'm going to read Chapter 12 in more detail. It covers Stafford Heginbotham's ownership of the club and the costs of upgrading the ground.

The stuff that's all over the papers though is in Chapter 14 and is pretty weak stuff.

The Matgoods fire happened after Heginbotham had sold the company.

The Douglas Mills November 1977 fire was started by John Disley who pleaded guilty to setting fire to a pack of foam granules at Tebro Toys. He also set fire to Globe Mills in 1978 (no connection to Heginbotham).  The August 1977 fire was started by two boys and was put out in 20 minutes before any damage was caused.

The 1968 Genefoam fire: A witness saw two brothers aged 10 and 13 light a bonfire which got out of control and set off the fuel tank. Charges were brought but the case was finally dropped because the children were judged to be below the age of criminal responsibility.

1977 was the year of the fireman's strike and Bradford was in the grip of a "fire blitz" according to the local press. There were four major fires in Bradford on the same night.

The supposed revelation that he was in dire straits isn't supported in the book. He was struggling to pay his workforce but that's not unusual. The company as eventually would up but it obviously continued trading before and after the fire. He owned a substantial property in large ground that he converted to a country house hotel. And he wouldn't have got any money himself from the insurance on the ground. Which was any way insufficient to cover the cost of rebuilding.

And so on.

There are quite a few obvious errors in this chapter - it doesn't appear to have been proof read - and it reads like something that was thrown together to spice the book up and increase sales.

The Bradford fire may not have been an accident and there are some interesting points raised as I say. The claims on the front pages today are simply not justified by the text.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #115 on: April 16, 2015, 08:19:34 pm »
Horrible story, this. Alan is right - we need further investigation before jumping to conclusions.

However, it sticks in the craw that Lord Justice Popplewell didn't get to the bottom of this at the time, and that he had the bloody cheek a few years ago to say that the Hillsborough families should move on, and accept their loss like the Bradford families. Well, thank God even one of the Bradford bereaved hasn't let it go, and he's uncovered what should have been fairly easy for Popplewell's team to discover themselves.

Even if the fire wasn't started deliberately - and I can't believe anyone would have deliberately started a fire in the ground on a match day, with tens of thousands of spectators in there - the point is that Heginbotham was the owner of multiple properties that went up in flames. Surely the onus was on him to ensure that Valley Parade was not a fire hazard.

A couple of things to bear in mind:

Bradford city council was committed to renovating the Odsal stadium, to help put Bradford Northern rugby club back on the map; so their focus might have been elsewhere.

I think Heginbotham took over in 1983, and it was well known at the time that Valley Parade was in a state of neglect. The fans knew it too: read The City Gent fanzine, the BCFC fanzine, from November 1984. They pondered whether BCFC might not have been better moving to Odsal too, to escape the neglect and 'crumbling facilities' at Valley Parade.

It's worth a read - not too expensive as an ebook. I feel really weird about it having skim read it and probably need to read it in detail. It feels like a mixed bag. On the one hand it's his story and his fight to overcome the effects of being at two of the worst football disasters, on the other there's some fairly painstaking research and conclusions that most of us would agree with (and a passionate dislike of Thatcher which most of us would agree with). And that creates problems where he lets his personal feelings or opinions make leaps of logic that aren't supported by facts. The Heginbotham stuff falls foursquare into that category.

Others can make their own judgements but I think it would have been a better book without the fire stuff in particular - it adds nothing and dragging in the fires beyond those originally reported by Paul Foot in 1985 weakens his whole argument and calls into question other parts of the book. Having seen the massive holes holes in that chapter I don't know that I'd trust some of his other claims.

The irony of course is that without the nine fires story we may not have been talking about it.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2015, 08:30:56 pm »
Certainly not saying the Bradford fire was started deliberately but it does need to be investigated thoroughly. have a feeling this could take a completely different direction after a few enquiries.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #117 on: April 16, 2015, 08:47:50 pm »
Certainly not saying the Bradford fire was started deliberately but it does need to be investigated thoroughly. have a feeling this could take a completely different direction after a few enquiries.

lIf I'm honest I think the fact that the book has been promoted so heavily on the stuff in the chapter about the other fires and because that's so weak it will be straightforward to address those and put them to bed, the interesting stuff about the state of the ground and how repairs would have been funded can be swept under the carpet.

I don't think he's been well advised unless the intention was to maximise sales.
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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #118 on: April 16, 2015, 09:00:52 pm »
lIf I'm honest I think the fact that the book has been promoted so heavily on the stuff in the chapter about the other fires and because that's so weak it will be straightforward to address those and put them to bed, the interesting stuff about the state of the ground and how repairs would have been funded can be swept under the carpet.

I don't think he's been well advised unless the intention was to maximise sales.

Its staggering that he was there, and also at Hillsborough... and lost 4 members of his family while just escaping himself. He definitely has a valid story to tell , not sure if the book is about his story that day and beyond, or about the other fires conspiracy theory , or is that just something that the media picked up on. Either way, the least the authorities owe him and other families is a decent investigation, not a half arsed attempt at a report.

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Re: Bradford Fire
« Reply #119 on: April 16, 2015, 09:23:18 pm »
Its staggering that he was there, and also at Hillsborough... and lost 4 members of his family while just escaping himself. He definitely has a valid story to tell , not sure if the book is about his story that day and beyond, or about the other fires conspiracy theory , or is that just something that the media picked up on. Either way, the least the authorities owe him and other families is a decent investigation, not a half arsed attempt at a report.

The other fires bit is a small and not really very interesting story. The other families have nothing to do with this. It's just him. 
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