Author Topic: Sexual Abuser Donald Trump Indicted  (Read 386003 times)

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #400 on: February 7, 2021, 01:30:36 pm »
Let's be clear, in any other circumstances threatening the Acting Attorney General of Georgia and that entire conversation in itself is worthy of Impeachment and a vote at a trial, irrespective of the anticipated outcome. That cannot be allowed to become a norm and to be repeated because it's regarded as inconsequential.

I still shudder at the thought of what was conspired on January 6th, albeit grateful there wasn't more deaths. Every single thing that occurred on that day was orchestrated by Trump and his cohorts and he must be brought to trial in the exact manner the Impeachment process was designed for. It's unthinkable to reach any other conclusion.

It may be an inconvenience to the business of Government, but a corrupt President has to be held accountable.

Absolutely.  Consider that Trump - almost immediately after the election - fired select people from the Pentagon and appointed loyalists in acting roles; people who subsequently delayed and stalled the appropriate response from security services during the riot.  When this is taken into account, the pre-meditation is not just obvious, it's downright sinister.

The riot was intended; everything over that 77 day period, or whatever it was, was intended to rile up a people to take matters into their own hands.  It was done because Trump knew it would be allowed by people who took him for a fool and didn't think it could get as bad as it did.

This notion that the futility of impeachment means we shouldn't even bother absolutely staggers me, it really does.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #401 on: February 7, 2021, 02:05:10 pm »
Absolutely.  Consider that Trump - almost immediately after the election - fired select people from the Pentagon and appointed loyalists in acting roles; people who subsequently delayed and stalled the appropriate response from security services during the riot.  When this is taken into account, the pre-meditation is not just obvious, it's downright sinister.

The riot was intended; everything over that 77 day period, or whatever it was, was intended to rile up a people to take matters into their own hands.  It was done because Trump knew it would be allowed by people who took him for a fool and didn't think it could get as bad as it did.

This notion that the futility of impeachment means we shouldn't even bother absolutely staggers me, it really does.
This is what shocked me as well. I agree with all the people who argued BLM met a far different response when they protested but this was about something else far more sinister and am not sure we will get the answers listening to one Democrat last night, they may put this down to bad planning as if it was all down to people making a mistake which is basically a cover up for me, this wasn't about bad planing this was a deliberate decision to leave the Senate undefended when the mob arrived to protest. we can speculate why but we shouldn't have too, this is the whole point of the Impeachment, all the heads of security need dragging before the Senate, a answer of we messed up badly isn't acceptable.
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #402 on: February 7, 2021, 03:15:26 pm »
Let's just wait until Tuesday.
It'll probably be weeks, if not months, before this trial's outcomes can be fully assessed and analysed.

Obviously different people will take different meanings from its conclusion.

Some -as TSC has stated for example- would like to see a light shined on those behind Trump, this may come to pass, it might be one of the easier things to determine.

Other bits, like finding a link between Trump's loyalists and proving they intentionally delayed and stalled the response from security services will be extremely hard to prove.

There's nothing staggering about not wanting this impeachment. I'll find it staggering if any of this happens:

1) Trump impeached (removed from an office he no longer serves in?).
2) Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, OAN etc being found complicit in propagating the myths and conspiracies. Somehow being sued or censored, or made to apologise.
3) Proud Boys, Boogaloos and other militias being outlawed and ordered to disband or surrender the arms.
4) Rand Paul, DeSantis, Cruz, Hawley, Jr., Boebert etc all told they will no longer be allowed to run for office or further their opinions in future.

Until the above is implemented it's all just gestures unfortunately Red Berry, shakes of DC double chins, droopy cheeks, and handwringing with token indignation to an empty chair.

When you go into something, you need aims, you need objectives you'd expect to happen 1, 2, 3.

I'd genuinely (not having a go, genuine request) like to know what do people expect to happen from this impeachment? but please note, not what you want because I hope we all share in the same endgames where Trump and his cohorts are concerned, but rather, what do you (realistically) expect to happen from this impeachment?

I'm not bothered with idealist talk about "Oh there needs to be a line in the sand", "Oh this was an attack on democracy", "Well we must ensure it never happens again I tell you what". Yeah this is all good and well, all of this has already been repeatedly said within hours after it happened, within the Capitol itself. Senator after Senator stood up and pretty much covered that.

I'm asking what real world, effective, tangible measures do people expect this impeachment trial to provide at its conclusion?

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #403 on: February 7, 2021, 03:30:46 pm »

Other bits, like finding a link between Trump's loyalists and proving they intentionally delayed and stalled the response from security services will be extremely hard to prove.

Why? 

Records exist.  We know pleas for assistance went unheeded; we know Trump ignored those around him as he watched the riot unfold on TV; we know Flynn's brother was present in the Pentagon after it was earlier denied.

Quote
There's nothing staggering about not wanting this impeachment.

Yes.  Yes there is.  He tried to overthrow the fucking government, and you have still failed to justify in any reasonable manner why he should not by tried by his political peers for it, other than "he'll get off."

Quote
I'll find it staggering if any of this happens:

1) Trump impeached (removed from an office he no longer serves in?). - he's already been impeached.  This is about forcing Republicans onto the record that they're ok with what he did

2) Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, OAN etc being found complicit in propagating the myths and conspiracies. Somehow being sued or censored, or made to apologise. - these organisations are all in the process of being sued for huge amounts of money for defamation

3) Proud Boys, Boogaloos and other militias being outlawed and ordered to disband or surrender the arms. - we are two weeks into the Biden Administration.  How about we hold off on certainties such as these?

4) Rand Paul, DeSantis, Cruz, Hawley, Jr., Boebert etc all told they will no longer be allowed to run for office or further their opinions in future. Hawley has already lost his chief donor and has tanked his political career for the foreseeable.  Cruz is universally despised and commands no widespread support. It's true they will likely face no great sanction unless some form of criminal liability can be established, but again, we can wait and see on that.


Quote
I'd genuinely (not having a go, genuine request) like to know what do people expect to happen from this impeachment?

We have said, multiple times.  Re-read this thread.  Just because you are not satisfied with the answers or they don't tick any of your supposed boxes does not invalidate those answers.

« Last Edit: February 7, 2021, 03:32:46 pm by Red Berry »
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #404 on: February 7, 2021, 03:58:49 pm »
Why? 

Records exist.  We know pleas for assistance went unheeded; we know Trump ignored those around him as he watched the riot unfold on TV; we know Flynn's brother was present in the Pentagon after it was earlier denied.
That's not the same thing as proving he intentionally hired people so that they let the gates open and security to stand down. You need solid evidence, directives, papers or communication records of some sort to show a command to stand down.

Look I'm not telling you he's innocent. I'm saying you need more than just what you're stating if you intend to bring him to justice.
Yes.  Yes there is.  He tried to overthrow the fucking government, and you have still failed to justify in any reasonable manner why he should not by tried by his political peers for it, other than "he'll get off."
I think you should reserve that statement to the jurors who have already told you they will shoot this down. Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks for that matter.

With regards to my points
1) My fault of using the wrong terminology, indeed he has been impeached, I meant found guilty.

2) Why do the news outlets continue to spout their hate and rubbish? being sued by Dominion is not going to be their end. Might be for the smallter outlets.

3) We will have to wait and see.

4) These people are still alive and well and currently using their platform to further the MAGA crap. Again, we will have to wait and see what happens to them.

Heaven help, I'll go through the thread again at some point to see if anyone has actually stated they'd expect a similar set of tangible actions as the ones I listed to specifically come out of this impeachment.

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #405 on: February 7, 2021, 04:02:44 pm »
Yes.  Yes there is.  He tried to overthrow the fucking government,

Not if you're an old 'Nam hand like TipTop. He's been there, seen it, done it. We're talking about a man who is equally at home negotiating his way through the back streets of Al Saydiya while keeping a back channel open to the Pentagon. Everything else is froth. For nothing surprises a man who has seen the dark side of the human personality manifest itself, alike, in the chancellories and torture chambers of this grim and dangerous world. 

Get real RB. Get down and get dirty. And above all, abandon your juvenile ideals and stop being shocked. It's about percentages.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #406 on: February 7, 2021, 04:06:52 pm »
It'll probably be weeks, if not months, before this trial's outcomes can be fully assessed and analysed.

Obviously different people will take different meanings from its conclusion.

Some -as TSC has stated for example- would like to see a light shined on those behind Trump, this may come to pass, it might be one of the easier things to determine.

Other bits, like finding a link between Trump's loyalists and proving they intentionally delayed and stalled the response from security services will be extremely hard to prove.

There's nothing staggering about not wanting this impeachment. I'll find it staggering if any of this happens:

1) Trump impeached (removed from an office he no longer serves in?).
2) Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, OAN etc being found complicit in propagating the myths and conspiracies. Somehow being sued or censored, or made to apologise.
3) Proud Boys, Boogaloos and other militias being outlawed and ordered to disband or surrender the arms.
4) Rand Paul, DeSantis, Cruz, Hawley, Jr., Boebert etc all told they will no longer be allowed to run for office or further their opinions in future.

Until the above is implemented it's all just gestures unfortunately Red Berry, shakes of DC double chins, droopy cheeks, and handwringing with token indignation to an empty chair.

When you go into something, you need aims, you need objectives you'd expect to happen 1, 2, 3.

I'd genuinely (not having a go, genuine request) like to know what do people expect to happen from this impeachment? but please note, not what you want because I hope we all share in the same endgames where Trump and his cohorts are concerned, but rather, what do you (realistically) expect to happen from this impeachment?

I'm not bothered with idealist talk about "Oh there needs to be a line in the sand", "Oh this was an attack on democracy", "Well we must ensure it never happens again I tell you what". Yeah this is all good and well, all of this has already been repeatedly said within hours after it happened, within the Capitol itself. Senator after Senator stood up and pretty much covered that.

I'm asking what real world, effective, tangible measures do people expect this impeachment trial to provide at its conclusion?
10 Proud boys have been charged for the Capitol building attack, they are planning more attacks on American Democracy, action will be taken against the Proud boys am sure. Roger Stone has close connections to the proud boys. Stone has close connections to Trump. be interesting to see if any of those Proud Boys flip when they are faced with 20yr behind bars.
The real world effect of the Impeachment is the number 1 priority, that's what people mean by a message has to be sent to make sure this never happens again. this isn't all about Trump, it's also about all the Republican politicians who supported and argued Trumps lies to please Trumps nutty supporters.
The one thing politicians respect is loosing their seat 1st, loosing power after a election 2nd.
How many times have posters argued this on this thread but it still gets ignored.
The Republican party and many Republican politicians are being viewed as toxic by donors and long standing Republican supporters, many of these supporters have walked away from the party en masse, certainly enough for these politicians to loose their seat.
10s of millions of Americans will be glued to their seats listening to the evidence over the next 10 days or so, many of those people voted Republican in the last election, the evidence wil be damining yet they will watch all those Republican Senators vote to allow this sort of treason to continue. am certain many will be very angry. that anger will be taken out on all those Senators at the next elections in 2 yrs.
Thats the message sent, your contempt for our democracy and the peace of this country will not be tolerated, we are refusing to vote for politicians like you.
I like a bet on Politics, won quiet a bit on the last US election, won some decent bets on the Senate run offs in Georgia last month, I would never consider backing the likes of Cruz and Hawley to loose their seats in normal circumstances, I would expect any politicians who stood against Cruz and Hawley to be at least 6/1 -10/1, I will snap the bookies hands off if they offer half those odds in 2 years time, anything around evens for Hawley to go will a great bet. Cruz opponent would normally be around 10/1. offer 3/1 now and I would hammer it. I may even hammer evens, point is all these Republican Senators had it made before they treated their democracy and the people of the US with contempt. they will get the message come election time when they are kicked out.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2021, 04:18:05 pm by oldfordie »
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #407 on: February 7, 2021, 04:09:20 pm »
Not if you're an old 'Nam hand like TipTop. He's been there, seen it, done it. We're talking about a man who is equally at home negotiating his way through the back streets of Al Saydiya while keeping a back channel open to the Pentagon. Everything else is froth. For nothing surprises a man who has seen the dark side of the human personality manifest itself, alike, in the chancellories and torture chambers of this grim and dangerous world. 

Get real RB. Get down and get dirty. And above all, abandon your juvenile ideals and stop being shocked. It's about percentages.
I'll endeavor to let you know when I give a toss about your opinion Yorky. Don't wait up though.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #408 on: February 7, 2021, 04:33:16 pm »
That's not the same thing as proving he intentionally hired people so that they let the gates open and security to stand down. You need solid evidence, directives, papers or communication records of some sort to show a command to stand down.

Look I'm not telling you he's innocent. I'm saying you need more than just what you're stating if you intend to bring him to justice.I think you should reserve that statement to the jurors who have already told you they will shoot this down. Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks for that matter.

With regards to my points
1) My fault of using the wrong terminology, indeed he has been impeached, I meant found guilty.

2) Why do the news outlets continue to spout their hate and rubbish? being sued by Dominion is not going to be their end. Might be for the smallter outlets.

3) We will have to wait and see.

4) These people are still alive and well and currently using their platform to further the MAGA crap. Again, we will have to wait and see what happens to them.

Heaven help, I'll go through the thread again at some point to see if anyone has actually stated they'd expect a similar set of tangible actions as the ones I listed to specifically come out of this impeachment.

TipTop, there is no point in continuing this discussion. Nobody is changing anybody else's minds and it's becoming antagonistic so I wont be responding further.
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #409 on: February 7, 2021, 04:37:46 pm »
TipTop, there is no point in continuing this discussion. Nobody is changing anybody else's minds and it's becoming antagonistic so I wont be responding further.
Agreed mate. I'm out. Genuinely sorry if I upset you or any poster on here. Not my intention. Stay safe and well mate.

Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #410 on: February 7, 2021, 05:35:17 pm »

I'll endeavor to let you know when I give a toss about your opinion Yorky. Don't wait up though.

A bit rich, that.

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #411 on: February 7, 2021, 06:49:11 pm »
That's not the same thing as proving he intentionally hired people so that they let the gates open and security to stand down. You need solid evidence, directives, papers or communication records of some sort to show a command to stand down.


We're not quite of the exact same mind on this, but I do feel that there's a often a streak of naivity in this thread in just how things will play out, posting as a certainty what they hope is going to happen rather than extrapolate out from what has already happened.

I would ask you though, how you think this should have been handled? To my mind, Democrats had to do something. They hoped that Pence would bail them out with the 25th, unlikely as it would have been. Once their calls were rebuffed there wasn't really anything to do but open impeachment proceedings... you can't exactly declare the president attempted a coup and then do nothing about it, even with barely any time left in office. That would have set the same precedent that the senate is about to - that any future president could launch a coup attempt in 'transition January' and in the event of failure just walk away from any reprimand as a private citizen a few weeks later, as long as they personally made no overt criminal action.

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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #412 on: February 7, 2021, 07:13:15 pm »
We're not quite of the exact same mind on this, but I do feel that there's a often a streak of naivity in this thread in just how things will play out, posting as a certainty what they hope is going to happen rather than extrapolate out from what has already happened.

I would ask you though, how you think this should have been handled? To my mind, Democrats had to do something. They hoped that Pence would bail them out with the 25th, unlikely as it would have been. Once their calls were rebuffed there wasn't really anything to do but open impeachment proceedings... you can't exactly declare the president attempted a coup and then do nothing about it, even with barely any time left in office. That would have set the same precedent that the senate is about to - that any future president could launch a coup attempt in 'transition January' and in the event of failure just walk away from any reprimand as a private citizen a few weeks later, as long as they personally made no overt criminal action.

I said before, the main reason for the impeachment was to remove Trump before he could do anymore damage; it was implemented because Pence refused to remove the guy who tried to have him murdered. It's not the Democrats' fault that Mitch McConnell refused to hear the impeachment before the inauguration; and until the spat about the filibuster, the signs that Republicans were willing to convict and bar Trump from office were promising. 

It's not naive to press ahead with the impeachment knowing the likely outcome, if only for those Republicans who want to go on record as saying they want Trump impeached. As you say, it sets a pretty awful precedent for any future losing president who might fancy trying for themselves.

As a sidebar, I noticed that Liz Cheney was not one of the 11 house Republicans who voted with Democrats to strip the Greene-Goblin of her committee assignments.  I find this strange, given that Greene was almost certainly one of the Republicans who tried to oust Cheney from her position after voting to impeach Trump.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #413 on: February 7, 2021, 07:53:14 pm »







I'd genuinely (not having a go, genuine request) like to know what do people expect to happen from this impeachment? but please note, not what you want because I hope we all share in the same endgames where Trump and his cohorts are concerned, but rather, what do you (realistically) expect to happen from this impeachment?



Prevent Trump from running again in 4 years time. 

He’s already secured his legacy of being the only president in history to be impeached twice, so there’s the first tick.

Ensure that no-one will ever again attempt to overthrow the government via violent insurrection.

Ensure irreparable damage to the Republican Party as it currently exists.

Beyond that hopefully individual states, ie New York, pursue him for other crimes.

Most importantly it allows the new administration to draw a line under Trump and get on with the real job that Trump failed miserably at.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #414 on: February 7, 2021, 08:14:24 pm »
I feel like we're in Revenge of the Sith, up against Palpatine.

"He must stand trial!"
"He has control of the Senate, and the courts!"

;D
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #415 on: February 7, 2021, 08:18:42 pm »
He's not going to be convicted by the Senate. We'll see what the other lawsuits bring about, but most of them are civil suits which he'll end up settling as he's always done.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #416 on: February 7, 2021, 08:30:56 pm »
He's not going to be convicted by the Senate. We'll see what the other lawsuits bring about, but most of them are civil suits which he'll end up settling as he's always done.

Nobody is settling out of court with Donald Trump again.  For one thing, he wont have the money.  SDNY is coming for his flabby ass.

There are plenty of criminal suits primed and ready to go.  They are just waiting for the impeachment to run its course first.  And that doesn't even include Georgia pressing charges over election tampering.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #417 on: February 7, 2021, 09:07:13 pm »
This is just an opinion piece, and I don't always agree with this guy's opinion.  But it seems relevant enough to share in here rather than the video thread.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/RWWJQp_kDGA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/RWWJQp_kDGA</a>

We cannot reduce this to black and white politics.  The human element cannot be divorced from the situation. Hundreds of lives were placed at risk; it was only by the greatest of good fortune we didn't witness a massacre.

Think about this when you say impeachment is a waste of time, or a waste of tax dollars.  When you want to kick this into the long grass, you're saying these people don't deserve to be heard.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2021, 09:08:52 pm by Red Berry »
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #418 on: February 7, 2021, 09:32:25 pm »
The Republicans will do what all extreme wing politicians do, try to re-write history. the Republicans could be arguing the riot started before Trump started speaking so Trump never incited the riot.
I may have been a few thousand miles away but am pretty sure Trump was speaking to a mass rally, am sure I saw them march down the road to the Capitol building and then they pushed the police barrier away and attacked the Senate. very weak argument by the Republican politicians. if this is the best they can do to defend Trump then they are best sticking to the this is unconstitutional technicality defense.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #419 on: February 7, 2021, 09:54:33 pm »
What Trump said to incite a riot, all the rehtoric prior to it regarding the election fraud and his massive mishandling of the pandemic is reprehensible. Unfortunately, It seems that there will be no consequence whatsoever for him. That is the sad fact of it all. I believe the Impeachment will hopefully help change the minds of some in congress, at least make them think about thier decision and how important it is for the country going forward that we see some kind of accountabilty. It must be done. You never know, It seems everyone but the dems has it nailed on that republicans are going ignore the facts. The way this year has panned out, I would not be overly suprised if that changes during a week of impeachment proceedings.

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #420 on: February 7, 2021, 10:24:56 pm »
TipTop, this is my final word on this issue. Let me start by saying I both understand and admire you for sticking to your guns, and you've made a valid point on impeachment conviction, as we all know Republicans and what happened last time.

However, as the saying goes, whilst we are all entitled to our own opinions, we are not entitled to our own facts.  These are facts:

- Trump is the leader of a violent, white supremacist, domestic terrorism movement
- his followers tried to violently overthrow the lawful government of the US, and Trump did everything he could to let them
- he lost the election by 7 million votes
- he lost the popular vote twice
- Trump never cracked a 50% approval rating. Joe Biden exceeded 60% in his first two weeks,  just by virtue of not being Donald Trump.
- Trump left office with the lowest approval rating of any Republican president amongst Republican voters in years. Something like 70%, which sounds high, until you consider that, in office, Trump routinely enjoyed approval ratings amongst Republican voters of high 80s to low 90s
- since the insurrection, thousands of Republican voters have deregistered from the party
- donors have held back money from Republican candidates and elected officials.

You have offered nothing to back your opinion up, other than vague assertions that impeaching Trump will antagonize his base, make him a martyr, or hand him and the Republican Party some kind of propaganda victory.

And, whilst you couch your opinion in reasonable terms of wanting to focus on Covid relief, getting the economy back up and running, not splitting the country, moving on and healing political divisions, you sound, at best, just plain scared; scared of what else might happen.  At worst, you come across as skirting outright appeasement - and history shows, you cannot appease a dictator.

Fear is ok. Fear is normal. Nobody wants to see more violence and bloodshed; and it's important to crack on with the tasks at hand.  But fear is what Trump and his people want. Fear is their bargaining chip, their only bargaining chip. Fear is the currency of the Republican party.

We cannot take emotion out of this political decision because it is emotion that drives it - the moral necessity to stand against terror and hold terrorists to account.

Donald Trump is not as powerful as he wants you to think, and neither is his base. That is the essence of the conman - make your opponent believe you are more than you are. Treat Trump and his ilk as abstract phantoms and you empower them. We need to deal with the reality of them - terrorists and lawbreakers, acting on the orders of a corrupt despot who wants unquestioning adoration and absolute power.

They will not be any more enraged by impeachment than they already are. Prosecuting impeachment wont hinder any subsequent criminal proceedings; it will not inhibit work on Covid relief, or steps to rebuild the economy. You have provided no evidence to support any of these assertions.

We may not have anything to gain from impeaching Trump, but equally we have absolutely nothing to lose either.



Fantastic post RB. Spot on in every way.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #421 on: February 7, 2021, 10:30:47 pm »
And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Hundreds of ordinary staff members at the Capitol have written to Senators begging them to convict Trump.The evidence that is going to be presented will be powerful. Five people died on the day, including a policeman beaten to death with a fire extinguisher.

This isn't a question of meetings with Russians where it all rests on meetiungs held in private. This happened live on television in the very same place the impeachment trial is being held.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #422 on: February 7, 2021, 10:56:45 pm »
What Trump said to incite a riot, all the rehtoric prior to it regarding the election fraud and his massive mishandling of the pandemic is reprehensible. Unfortunately, It seems that there will be no consequence whatsoever for him. That is the sad fact of it all. I believe the Impeachment will hopefully help change the minds of some in congress, at least make them think about thier decision and how important it is for the country going forward that we see some kind of accountabilty. It must be done. You never know, It seems everyone but the dems has it nailed on that republicans are going ignore the facts. The way this year has panned out, I would not be overly suprised if that changes during a week of impeachment proceedings.

Rest assured, there will be consequence.  Probably not through impeachment; maybe not even through any way currently perceived.  But he and his brood will not escape this consequence free.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #423 on: February 7, 2021, 11:00:13 pm »
Fantastic post RB. Spot on in every way.

Thanks Alan.  I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I also know you are a person who respects the facts of a situation as it stands.  I've done my best here, but I can't seem to get through to people, so it's an issue I'm bowing out on before I just lose my rag.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #424 on: February 8, 2021, 11:34:49 am »
And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Hundreds of ordinary staff members at the Capitol have written to Senators begging them to convict Trump.The evidence that is going to be presented will be powerful. Five people died on the day, including a policeman beaten to death with a fire extinguisher.

This isn't a question of meetings with Russians where it all rests on meetiungs held in private. This happened live on television in the very same place the impeachment trial is being held.
I agree. Everyone keeps talking about 17 Republican Senator votes required for conviction - this is not true. What is required is a two-thirds majority of those present for conviction. I wonder how many Republicans will be unable to make the vote for some reason? The effect of each and every Republican failing to turn up is two-thirds of a vote to convict (and one-third to acquit).

To example this, lets add in some real numbers. Suppose 10 Republicans do not show, there are now 90 Senators to vote. Only 60 votes are now required for conviction (10 votes from Republicans). If 16 do not show, that's only 84 Senators to vote, and 56 votes (including 6 from Republicans) required for conviction. OK, all that might still seem a stretch, but the details of the attempted coup to be illuminated in the Senate trial will be gruesome. There remains a path for conviction both by direct Republican votes and by their cowardice. And if not, every Republican Senator will be required to go on the record in failing to vote for Trump's conviction.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #425 on: February 8, 2021, 11:55:01 am »
And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Hundreds of ordinary staff members at the Capitol have written to Senators begging them to convict Trump.The evidence that is going to be presented will be powerful. Five people died on the day, including a policeman beaten to death with a fire extinguisher.

This isn't a question of meetings with Russians where it all rests on meetiungs held in private. This happened live on television in the very same place the impeachment trial is being held.

I agree Alan. The evidence will be stark and of course there is the unknown quantity of the man himself. No doubt his lawyers, whoever they are now, will be advising him to say nothing but he has proven time and time again that he hates turning down any opportunity to say his piece.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #426 on: February 8, 2021, 01:26:46 pm »
Elie Honig is doing a 10 mins daily pod with Preet to summarise the impeachment developments.
https://cafe.com/third-degree-podcast/impeachment-preview/

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #427 on: February 8, 2021, 01:32:32 pm »
I agree. Everyone keeps talking about 17 Republican Senator votes required for conviction - this is not true. What is required is a two-thirds majority of those present for conviction. I wonder how many Republicans will be unable to make the vote for some reason? The effect of each and every Republican failing to turn up is two-thirds of a vote to convict (and one-third to acquit).

To example this, lets add in some real numbers. Suppose 10 Republicans do not show, there are now 90 Senators to vote. Only 60 votes are now required for conviction (10 votes from Republicans). If 16 do not show, that's only 84 Senators to vote, and 56 votes (including 6 from Republicans) required for conviction. OK, all that might still seem a stretch, but the details of the attempted coup to be illuminated in the Senate trial will be gruesome. There remains a path for conviction both by direct Republican votes and by their cowardice. And if not, every Republican Senator will be required to go on the record in failing to vote for Trump's conviction.

It will be a full house. Kamela Harris has already had to serve as tie breaker on key Covid budget votes. It's increasingly obvious that Republicans intend to vote en masse against this. They have no excuse not to turn up
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #428 on: February 8, 2021, 01:35:20 pm »
It will be a full house. Kamela Harris has already had to serve as tie breaker on key Covid budget votes. It's increasingly obvious that Republicans intend to vote en masse against this. They have no excuse not to turn up
You might well be right. But, it is not a given. At least not until we begin to see how the trial evolves and what new evidence is presented (I expect there will be some).
« Last Edit: February 8, 2021, 01:37:35 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #429 on: February 8, 2021, 01:46:51 pm »
You might well be right. But, it is not a given. At least not until we begin to see how the trial evolves and what new evidence is presented (I expect there will be some).

The unknown factor in all of this is the orange turd himself. He is capable of completely bollocksing his own defence very very quickly. I also agree that some senators may think it is in their interests to simply not show.

There's a lot more to happen yet.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #430 on: February 8, 2021, 02:25:41 pm »
Elie Honig is doing a 10 mins daily pod with Preet to summarise the impeachment developments.
https://cafe.com/third-degree-podcast/impeachment-preview/
He made an interesting point about the Senate vote regarding the constitutionality of trial: the vote asked the question should they have debate about constitutionality of the trial; it was not a vote as to whether or not it is constitutional. So, some (probably small) wriggle room there too.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #431 on: February 8, 2021, 02:31:57 pm »
You might well be right. But, it is not a given. At least not until we begin to see how the trial evolves and what new evidence is presented (I expect there will be some).

Given how the usual suspects were doing the rounds on the Sunday shows yesterday, I'm taking it as a given. That's just me though. They're clearly trying to sell the decision in advance to the people.

I just wish someone would ask them, "so you don't believe what the president did was impeachable? You don't believe he incited a riot? You don't think he encouraged a mob based on a false narrative of electoral manipulation?"

But if course, they won't appear on the shows that would ask such questions.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2021, 02:34:24 pm by Red Berry »
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #432 on: February 8, 2021, 03:03:10 pm »
He made an interesting point about the Senate vote regarding the constitutionality of trial: the vote asked the question should they have debate about constitutionality of the trial; it was not a vote as to whether or not it is constitutional. So, some (probably small) wriggle room there too.
Yep, very interesting mate.

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #433 on: February 9, 2021, 08:54:43 am »
And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Hundreds of ordinary staff members at the Capitol have written to Senators begging them to convict Trump.The evidence that is going to be presented will be powerful. Five people died on the day, including a policeman beaten to death with a fire extinguisher.

This isn't a question of meetings with Russians where it all rests on meetiungs held in private. This happened live on television in the very same place the impeachment trial is being held.
It will possibly come down to what Mitch does he say to his conference I'm voting to convict and whip votes(likely convicted), I'm going to convict and it a vote of conscience(maybe enough), say he not going to convict and whip against it(No chance), not going to convict  and say it a vote of conscience(unlikely to convict. Or does he not disclose and just tell vote your conscience(unlikely enough)
It very odd to be the person attacked and also be the Jury in this case.
If I had a guess on Yes votes right now it 51 to convict(Romney plus 50 Dems), with at least 3+ who are leaning from R just not sure there getting 16 more vote.
I wont think it foregone he not getting convicted, it just having a hard time seeing with 100 senators how they getting enough votes at this point. Jamie Raskin the lead impeachment manager was a constitutional law professor before congress, which was an excellent choice for this case.

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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #434 on: February 9, 2021, 09:10:32 am »
In the immediate aftermath of the riot, Republican senators were clearly terrified that there was a very real prospect they'd have to convict Trump. Maybe their donors have let them off the hook, or perhaps they're counting on voters having the memory of goldfish, but they're definitely trying to rewrite the narrative of what happened in the friendly media, as well as looking for strawman technicalities to excuse acquittal.

I think you'll see no more than the five Republicans who have already voted with Democrats on the issue. But the Democrats will make them squirm for it with the video evidence.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #435 on: February 9, 2021, 09:32:49 am »
In the immediate aftermath of the riot, Republican senators were clearly terrified that there was a very real prospect they'd have to convict Trump. Maybe their donors have let them off the hook, or perhaps they're counting on voters having the memory of goldfish, but they're definitely trying to rewrite the narrative of what happened in the friendly media, as well as looking for strawman technicalities to excuse acquittal.

I think you'll see no more than the five Republicans who have already voted with Democrats on the issue. But the Democrats will make them squirm for it with the video evidence.

To think that many of them would have been lynched had Trump's mob found them.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #436 on: February 9, 2021, 09:43:01 am »
To think that many of them would have been lynched had Trump's mob found them.

Actually makes you wonder what it would have taken, and whether that might have been the necessary thing to happen for the long term good of American politics. And then I tell myself I'm crazy for thinking it.
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #437 on: February 9, 2021, 09:55:45 am »
Actually makes you wonder what it would have taken, and whether that might have been the necessary thing to happen for the long term good of American politics. And then I tell myself I'm crazy for thinking it.

If you're British it's worth trying imagine the whole thing taking place at the Palace of Westminster, with Tory MPs having to hide from the mob as it stormed through the House of Commons, the Lobby, the House of Lords etc. And then coming out a few weeks later and pretending everything was normal, "time to come together", best not waste tax payers' money on a trial etc. 
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #438 on: February 9, 2021, 09:57:55 am »
I hope the Democrats have been keeping a lot of their powder dry to not only prove Trump incited the riot, he also couldn't understand why everyone else around him wasn't excited about it as much as him.  real timeline showing the riot develop on tv and Trumps actions at that time. very damning. Republican Senators on the floor in hiding and Trump only wants to talk to them on the phone to ask them to delay the vote. he really is a Psycho.
Republican Senators hiding from the mob are believed to have said something on the lines of "Wheres Trump, why isn't he saying anything" they must have believed Trump pulled the mobs strings to say this. rioters charged on tape being asked why they are leaving. "Trump told us too. so we are going home"
« Last Edit: February 9, 2021, 12:53:59 pm by oldfordie »
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Re: Legal repercussions for Trump and his cabal
« Reply #439 on: February 9, 2021, 11:26:02 am »
Republicans Want to Ignore the Trauma of the Capitol Riot Because Most of Them Are Guilty of Inciting It

I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again. I've had guns pointed at me multiple times. I've been in fights. I've done some weird shit that was dumb and dangerous. None of that made much of an impression on my psyche because I was fairly certain each time that I wasn't going to die. The one thing that sticks with me is one sound: the jiggling of a locked doorknob as someone tried to open the door to the bedroom I was in. No one else was supposed to be in the apartment of my then-partner. But at around 3 in the morning, from the bed, I heard the screen door open and then some prying at the front door and then footsteps and then a pause and then the metal knob being turned. This was before cell phones, and the only landline in the joint was in the living room, so calling the cops was out of the question. I yelled, "Whoever you are, I've got a gun" as, yes, I held in my hand the pistol that my partner kept under her bed, ready to shoot anyone who came through the door. It didn't come to that. They ran away and we discovered the only thing missing was the large knife that we had left on the counter in the mess we intended to clean in the morning. Whoever was there didn't intend to rob. They could have grabbed the TV and a couple of items and had a decent haul. They were there to kill or rape. Ever since that day, I have never felt entirely safe wherever I'm staying. It really is more a feeling. I don't really do that much differently, but I always double-check locks now since the fact that I happened to lock the door that night was potentially the difference between life and death. Or life and me shooting someone.

That's trauma. That's the way trauma works. I don't like that my behavior changed due to it, but I don't fucking like that it happened and I don't fucking like that I really can't help the way I feel. I don't want to, but I just do. And what happened to me was mild. It's nothing compared to the victims of violent crimes who suffer physical and emotional damage. It's less than nothing compared to sexual assault survivors or war victims or, hell, soldiers, even. Or kids in a school shooting. But this shit stays with you, even if you made it out physically unscathed.

What happened to the members of Congress, their staffs, the building staff, and the police of January 6 was traumatic. I mean, Jesus fuck, imagine being a Democrat as you hear a crazed mob of conspiracy nuts hooting and yelling down the halls, shouting the names of Nancy Pelosi, the Squad, and others, a bunch of violent white people who broke windows and doors, who overwhelmed the Capitol police, who you know are hopped up on calls for them to "Stop the Steal," who have been talking openly about spilling the blood of those who oppose Donald Trump, their leader who gave them permission to make sure that Democrats and turncoat Republican got the message and ordered them to march on the Capitol. Imagine barricading yourself in an office with others, piling furniture against the door, hiding in closets and under desks, hoping that they don't find you, that you just wanted to come to work and do your job as, say, Rep. Ayanna Pressley's chief of staff and now you don't know if you'll get out alive because right outside the door is a literal lynch mob, one that has sent your boss and you a continuous stream of death threats, one that had set up an actual, useable gallows outside your place of work. The legit fear of being killed rewires you.

We don't have to totally imagine it because we're hearing from members and their staff about how they were traumatized by the events of that day, and, really, all the days after with much of the right's reaction to the riot. Conservatives mocked people who said they felt that their lives were in danger, like Tucker "I Always Look Like I'm Trying to Convince You I Didn't Fart" Carlson saying of Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, "When the most harrowing thing you've done in life is pass freshman sociology at Boston University, every day is a brand new drama." He sneered that out of his smug, dumb face on January 14, when the Democrat had said that she and her staff had "narrowly escaped death" in the Capitol.

On Monday, Ocasio-Cortez explained in detail what happened to her on that day, and, yeah, by any measure, it was gut-wrenchingly frightening. She framed the experience of trauma within another trauma she has suffered in her life, a sexual assault, and the PTSD  that comes after that traumatic event. Of course, dickhead conservatives even mocked her for that, as if those who didn't experience any of this have a single fucking right to say how those who did handle it.

Those in Congress who wish to deny that trauma, those who wish for the ones who incited it to go unpunished, those who just want to move on without figuring out why this happened and how to stop it from ever fucking happening again, they are also participants in traumatizing their colleagues and others. And it's easy to see why. Because the nation as a whole is suffering from series of collective traumas, from the pandemic to the economic turmoil to Trump and the Republicans' effort to overturn the 2020 election.

That last part is key because it's impossible to get over the abject cruelty (and greed) of what the GOP and conservative media did to this already weakened, beaten down country. And they essentially split the country into those who were driven mad believing the election lies and those who were anywhere from worried to shit-scared about what the mad mob would do. And then they fucking did it, and we are merely fortunate that the insurrection wasn't far, far worse than the 5 people who died that day, along with the over 100 injuries to law enforcement and others.

So when a GOP senator says that impeaching and trying Trump is a waste of time, when Republican senators refuse to even entertain the idea of saying that Trump is guilty of inciting the insurrection, what they are revealing is that they know they are guilty, too, with some, like the odious cockmites Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz, directly guilty through encouraging the mob prior to the riot. And they can't even excise the garbage Republicans in the House who have doubled down on threats of violence and the overwhelming majority of whom voted to overturn the presidential election. Frankly, if you supported Trump at all during this attempted coup, you are guilty, too.

These motherfuckers can't wish the trauma away. They know that they fucked up, that they finally went too far. And their refusal to accept responsibility does continuing damage to not just the Congress, but to the country as a whole. We are all the victims of the GOP.