Author Topic: British and Argentina relations strained  (Read 27871 times)

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2010, 07:17:59 am »
You see, I just think that's pushing it. Quite simply, farflung former colonies are geopolitical oddities and they shouldn't have the same maritime property rights. That's my personal opinion, nothing more, but it smells all wrong to me.

Why? Don't the people who live on the Falklands, who mostly run their own affairs and are self sufficient for pretty much everything bar defence, deserve the same rights as everyone else in the world?

Funny how it took the British Govt 800 years to understand that :)

History's history and nothing's going to change about it. Invading smaller countries and building empires was normal for most of the last couple of thousand years.

No, we're beyond that. There's no sense in giving oil enough for 10 million people to an island of 3,600 folks. That simply amounts to a lottery win for the parent state.

Maritime limits should be based on need, first and foremost. If you have two neighbouring islands, one densely populated, one sparsely populated, why should the shares be equal? We are people, not land masses.

Doesn't that go for everyone with rich natural resources? Should we take all of the UAE's oil or Canada's forests or Sierra Leone's diamonds off them because their population isn't big enough to deserve them?
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Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2010, 10:11:21 am »
My thoughts are that this is just a rather sad attempt to deflect domestic pressure by the Argies, just like the original Falklands conflict was. Even with the British armed forces as stretched as they are the Argies are not stupid enough to think they can take the islands by force.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2010, 10:15:40 am »
Why? Don't the people who live on the Falklands, who mostly run their own affairs and are self sufficient for pretty much everything bar defence, deserve the same rights as everyone else in the world?

Yes, they do. Those rights shouldn't extend to their colonial overlords.

Doesn't that go for everyone with rich natural resources? Should we take all of the UAE's oil or Canada's forests or Sierra Leone's diamonds off them because their population isn't big enough to deserve them?

I said maritime limits. You can keep whatever you already have.

Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2010, 10:34:25 am »
Yes, they do. Those rights shouldn't extend to their colonial overlords.

The Falkland islands may have once been a colony, now they are an overseas territory of the United Kingdom. As with the other British Overseas territories, they have chosen this and it should be respected.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2010, 10:37:57 am »
The Falkland islands may have once been a colony, now they are an overseas territory of the United Kingdom. As with the other British Overseas territories, they have chosen this and it should be respected.

If you read the thread, you'll see I agree. It's the oil under the surrounding sea that I have a problem with.

Offline ABZ Rover

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2010, 11:58:29 am »
Just to straighten out the "twice as much oil as the North Sea" which I have seen quoted in several media sources.  The initial exploration wells drill in the 90's did show traces of oil in all but one well which showed gas.  Someone them extrapolated the results to the best understanding of the Falklands Basin geological model and estimate the “potential” reserves. The current round of drilling in designed to test if the reserves are recoverable and, more importantly, economic to recover.  There is no point spend $120/bbl to recover if you can only sell it for @ $70.

We are a very long way off seeing Falkland oil flowing right now.  The infrastructure needed to recover any economic find would be immense with the possibility of pipelines rather remote you would probably have to resort to FPSO (floating production and storage vessels) then have to tanker the crude to market.

All that said one thing is for sure if the reserves are proved to be large enough we will be back at some point in the not too distant future to recover them.  Oil industry technology advances at a rapid rate and deep water reserves off the West coast of Africa for example which were unrecoverable only 10 - 15 years ago are now coming on line thanks to new drilling and completion methods.

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Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2010, 12:06:51 pm »
If you read the thread, you'll see I agree. It's the oil under the surrounding sea that I have a problem with.

I did and I disagree. While it may be a geological fluke that the Falklands has oil and the Argies do not, they should be entitled to the revenues from it just as they benefit from the likes of fishing licences for their waters. Argentina has no more rights to any oil revenue from the waters of the Falklands than Britain has to the oil in the Norwegian sector of the North Sea.
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2010, 12:38:54 pm »
I said maritime limits. You can keep whatever you already have.

So because they used to be a colony they shouldn't have the same rights as every other country in the world? Why should every country in the world (with a coastline) be allowed to have their maritime limits, with all the oil, fish and everything else that goes with it but not the Falklands

Besides which, how on earth does Argentina get the right to anything that's 300 miles off their coast line?
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2010, 03:50:46 pm »
So because they used to be a colony they shouldn't have the same rights as every other country in the world? Why should every country in the world (with a coastline) be allowed to have their maritime limits, with all the oil, fish and everything else that goes with it but not the Falklands

Because the Falklands aren't a real country. They're
farflung former colonies/geopolitical oddities and they shouldn't have the same maritime property rights.

I'm not suggesting they have no rights, far from it. But they shouldn't have the same rights as real countries.

Besides which, how on earth does Argentina get the right to anything that's 300 miles off their coast line?

Sorry, can't help you there.

Offline CHOPPER

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2010, 03:57:31 pm »
Because the Falklands aren't a real country. They're

But they have a flag?
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Offline hansen6

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2010, 04:01:06 pm »
History's history and nothing's going to change about it. Invading smaller countries and building empires was normal for most of the last couple of thousand years.
It's still "normal" for some countries - they just dress it up differently.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2010, 04:07:40 pm »
But they have a flag?

Well then under Eddie Izzard Rules, they're sorted.

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2010, 04:16:04 pm »
Because the Falklands aren't a real country.

There are people who have lived there for generations. So when does an island become a real country then? What about all those small islands in the Pacific? Are they too insignificant to have any rights?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2010, 04:21:55 pm »
There are people who have lived there for generations. So when does an island become a real country then? What about all those small islands in the Pacific? Are they too insignificant to have any rights?

If a place is an overseas territory or protectorate of another place and it's nowhere fucking near that place then it's not a real country.

And, once again, I never said they should have no rights. They should have limited rights in respect of maritime property.

I repeat, this is purely my personal opinion.

Offline CHOPPER

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2010, 04:24:10 pm »
Well then under Eddie Izzard Rules, they're sorted.
Ace. The world can now revolve safely in the knowledge that they are indeed a country, a small one but still a country none the less and with a flag to prove so.

To my understanding there was an exclusion zone set around the Falklands during and after the 'war' is this not still in place? and has only become an issue since the drilling/exploration rights have been issued out to four companies.
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2010, 04:46:12 pm »
If a place is an overseas territory or protectorate of another place and it's nowhere fucking near that place then it's not a real country.

eh? Are there any indigenous Falklanders/Malvinasianis that have a prior claim?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2010, 05:16:47 pm »
eh? Are there any indigenous Falklanders/Malvinasianis that have a prior claim?

No idea. Why?

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2010, 05:38:51 pm »
No idea. Why?


Us Brits work under the internationally recognised auspices of the 'Finders Keepers'* rules.

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Offline GREGtheRED

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2010, 05:39:00 pm »
Because the Falklands aren't a real country. They're
I'm not suggesting they have no rights, far from it. But they shouldn't have the same rights as real countries.

Sorry, can't help you there.

No, the falklands aren't a country, they are part of a country - the United Kingdom. Therefore the territory should have the same rights as any other part of the UK and its waters. Its very simple.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2010, 07:07:23 pm »
Because the Falklands aren't a real country.

Sorry, but that's just utter rubbish.

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2010, 09:32:08 pm »
out of interest how many of you have met or spoken to someone from The Falklands?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2010, 09:41:36 pm »
out of interest how many of you have met or spoken to someone from The Falklands?

Never. I have no doubt they are a hardy bunch of bastards, though. You have to admire anyone who lives out in the arsefuck of nowhere, being constantly leered at by Argies. Although I hope they're importing people, otherwise their gene pool doesn't look terribly healthy.


Offline Trada

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2010, 09:41:46 pm »
When the Falklands war first kicked off, how many people thought that they where just off the coast of Scotland?  :P

I did and it came as a complete shock when I found out where there were.
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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2010, 09:47:36 pm »
Never. I have no doubt they are a hardy bunch of bastards, though. You have to admire anyone who lives out in the arsefuck of nowhere, being constantly leered at by Argies. Although I hope they're importing people, otherwise their gene pool doesn't look terribly healthy.



Inbred? Leered at? Lousy gene pool?

They don't have relatives in Buckingham Palace do they?
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2010, 10:01:03 pm »
Let's get down to raw numbers.

Suppose there is an oilfield in a disputed area between Argentina and the Falklands. We will assume that their arguments are fairly evenly matched, to an impartial observer, based on geographical positioning and treaties and so forth. Also, drilling is fair game and the oil is good.

Let's say this oilfield generates £1 billion over its life. How much of that do you think the Falklands should get? And of what they get, what should Her Majesty, their executive ruler, get?

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2010, 10:36:41 pm »
I've been to the Falklands and lived there for 4 months.The people are very proud and even though they are very grateful for the support that Britain gives them,they don't class themselves as British but as Falklanders.

Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2010, 10:50:38 pm »
I've been to the Falklands and lived there for 4 months.The people are very proud and even though they are very grateful for the support that Britain gives them,they don't class themselves as British but as Falklanders.
That's exactly what a mate of mine told me who served out there.

Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2010, 12:04:40 am »
How much of that do you think the Falklands should get? And of what they get, what should Her Majesty, their executive ruler, get?

Do you think that Aberdeen as the base for the North Sea oil industry is entitled to have more of the revenue the government gets from North Sea oil than any other part of the UK?
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Offline lachesis

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2010, 09:35:23 am »
Seems a dispute based on bureaucracy. By the same token, embassies in Britain are considered their respective soil aren't they. For instance, an American embassy is considered 'american soil' - if oil was found under one of the embassies, would the UK happily say that it belongs to the US?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 10:47:43 am by Pheeny »

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2010, 10:52:57 am »
this is what is on The official website of the Falklands

Oil Statement

One of the primary goals of the Falkland Islands Government is to achieve a sustainable economic future for the Islands. Encouraging hydrocarbons exploration remains an important element of that goal.

The operators drilling wells in the 2010 drilling phase have been required to gain comprehensive approval taking into consideration environmental, health and safety and technical issues.  The Falkland Islands Government is encouraged by the investment being made to establish whether there are commercial quantities of hydrocarbons in the Falklands.  However, any potential revenues from exploitation will not feature in the Islands’ economic planning unless and until commercially viable reserves are discovered.

In his New Year’s message to the Islands, the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown reinforced our view. He said: “The British Government will continue to support the development of your hydrocarbons sector. But there is of course no guarantee that commercially viable reserves will be found. And, should there be any, extraction will be some years away. You are right therefore not to factor any revenues into your economic planning. But the opportunities – and the risks – make careful preparations vital for this important work. The British Government will continue to work with you on this agenda.”

He went on to say that there are “no doubts about United Kingdom’s sovereignty over the Falkland Islands and that the principle of self determination underlies this.”

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2010, 11:16:17 am »
Let's get down to raw numbers.

Suppose there is an oilfield in a disputed area between Argentina and the Falklands. We will assume that their arguments are fairly evenly matched, to an impartial observer, based on geographical positioning and treaties and so forth. Also, drilling is fair game and the oil is good.

Let's say this oilfield generates £1 billion over its life. How much of that do you think the Falklands should get? And of what they get, what should Her Majesty, their executive ruler, get?

The money will all go to the Falklands Government, the same as the money they get from fishing permits.

At least, that's how I understand it.
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Offline SP

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2010, 11:22:02 am »
The money will all go to the Falklands Government, the same as the money they get from fishing permits.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Although, I would expect that they would start paying for the defence costs associated with the British Forces being stationed there if the money started rolling in.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2010, 11:27:23 am »
Although, I would expect that they would start paying for the defence costs associated with the British Forces being stationed there if the money started rolling in.

Possibly, I don't know how defence of the Islands is governed (ie if we have a treaty saying that we will provide the bulk of their defence or whether we just do it), I know the FI Government pays for the FI Defence Force and that they're equipped differently from the British Army (they're armed with Steyr Aug assault rifles instead of the L85 'SA80' that the British Army uses), but I'm not sure whether they contribute anything to the costs of the British garrison on the islands.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2010, 11:43:25 am »
Anyone of a certain generation who remembers what happened in the 1980s will probably have mixed feelings about the bloody Falklands. The way it was used by Mrs Thatcher to boost her own popularity at home, the Belgrano incident, the ill-equipped expeditionary force which recklessly exposed our soldiers and sailors to near total defeat, and the astonishing amounts of money that the British taxpayer had to pay in order to maintain the Falkland Islanders afterwards etc. All this at a time when Thatcher was closing down other 'uneconomic' parts of Britain like Merseyside, Durham, Lancashire, south Yorkshire, South Wales and Clydeside. Yet, who the fuck wanted General Galtieri and his military government to win?

Corky finds it amazing that there are 'colonial oddities' all over the globe which still demand their rights. I don't. If the Falkland Islanders were kept under sovereign British rule against their will it would be a scandal. But they aren't. They've made their own choice and should have the same rights - including mineral rights - of self-determination as any other people. It's certainly awkward that they are where they are. It's faintly embarrassing that they are a relic of the old British Empire. But no group of people should be punished because their origin story isn't as pure as the rest of the world would like. Christ, most Argentines aren't exactly south American aborigines either. Plus, once again, their government is waving 'the Malvinas' flag because it's messing stuff up at home again. We wouldn't want to reward that would we? 

 
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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2010, 06:06:18 pm »
Let's get down to raw numbers.

It's just a number (as my wife keeps telling me!).

Quote
Suppose there is an oilfield in a disputed area between Argentina and the Falklands. We will assume that their arguments are fairly evenly matched, to an impartial observer, based on geographical positioning and treaties and so forth. Also, drilling is fair game and the oil is good.

Let's say this oilfield generates £1 billion over its life. How much of that do you think the Falklands should get? And of what they get, what should Her Majesty, their executive ruler, get?

The only number I see bandied about is "up to 60bn barrels". I doubt there's that much recoverable oil, but anyways, reports also suggest a production capacity of 500,000 barrels of oil per day. For some perspective, Iraq produces around 2.5m per day as does the UAE, Iran does about 4m per day, and Saudi does 9m with a claimed production ceiling of up to 12m per day coming online over the next decade.

The Falklands will receive 9% royalty per barrel. Best case scenario -  if oil averages $100 over the next decade, which is reasonable if a little rosey, they get $9 per barrel or $4,500,000 per day. They also get 20-28% of all oil profits on the venture.

http://www1.american.edu/TED/falkoil.htm

How many of these hardy bastards are there again?

Offline SMD

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2010, 06:48:01 pm »
Don't forget the added benefits that having oil and gas plants will bring - the companies that'll come and the extra business they'll get just owing to the presence of oil and gas firms.
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2010, 07:35:42 pm »
Don't forget the added benefits that having oil and gas plants will bring - the companies that'll come and the extra business they'll get just owing to the presence of oil and gas firms.

Of course, although that's going to be harder to quantify. On the royalties alone, though, The Islanders stand to receive up to a $547,500 bump up in GDP per head. It's the fucking craziest statistic I've ever seen in economics.

And 9% royalties and 28% profits is cheap for the oil companies. You think the Nahyan, Khalifa, Otaiba or the Suwaidi family would sell his oil for 9 cents on the dollar? Would he fuck.

Offline hansen6

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2010, 08:36:48 pm »
Anyone of a certain generation who remembers what happened in the 1980s will probably have mixed feelings about the bloody Falklands. The way it was used by Mrs Thatcher to boost her own popularity at home, the Belgrano incident, the ill-equipped expeditionary force which recklessly exposed our soldiers and sailors to near total defeat, and the astonishing amounts of money that the British taxpayer had to pay in order to maintain the Falkland Islanders afterwards etc. All this at a time when Thatcher was closing down other 'uneconomic' parts of Britain like Merseyside, Durham, Lancashire, south Yorkshire, South Wales and Clydeside. Yet, who the fuck wanted General Galtieri and his military government to win?
The tories were well known for standing up for the little man and certainly were no friends of quasi-fascist south american dictatorships, oh no.

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2010, 09:12:26 pm »
"Falklands War 2: The Wrath Of Carlos"

Argentina will whine and complain but I doubt they'll be stupid enough to try anything again.
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Offline TSC

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2010, 01:17:59 am »
The tories were well known for standing up for the little man and certainly were no friends of quasi-fascist south american dictatorships, oh no.

What 'little man' was this that was triumphed by the tories?  They don't give a fuck about the average bloke on the street. Fact was Thatcher was on the verge of defeat at the ballot box and the wee war thousands of  miles away saved her bacon.