Topic: British and Argentina relations strained

[Indomitable_Carp]

Argentinians just drink the Kool Aid in general, I think! Hero (or rather Saint) worship, nationalism, self-importance, and performative passion are all part of the parcel of being Argentinian. They are known for it throughout the Spanish-speaking world (fairly or unfairly). It's why their football fans are like they are.

It's also one of the reasons their politics is so messed up. Their most influential political "ideology" of the last 70 years, which helped land them in this mess, is essentially a form of populism that wildly veers from left-to-right, and draws upon nationalism and personality-worship as their guiding principals. But for that same reason, it is hard to draw straight correlations with other countries that have turned to the far right. Although some correlations can most certainly be made (mainly the country being a complete mess and crying out for change, with the far right stepping into that gap as the "change candidate").

[Nobby Reserve]

Hearing the Peronist Party described as left-of-centre did make me double-take.

They were founded on lines not dissimilar to Mussolini-type fascism.

[jambutty]

Somebody new and different. How bad could he be?

He looks an ageing Elmo Parsley with them sideboards.

[Sangria]

Very much a general point, but it's infuriating that, when 'the left' (when they genuinely were 'the left') would say "the system is broken, we want to smash it up and replace it with something much more fair and equal that will improve the lives of the many, at the expense of the privileged, super-wealthy few", 'the plebs' would turn their noses up and reject it.

Now, when egomaniac mavericks say "the system is broken, we want to smash it up and replace it with something that will destroy public services, cut taxes that the super-rich will most benefit from and thus increase wealth inequality, and curtail your personal freedoms!", 'the plebs' lap it up and go "you know, I think it's time for a change"

That's why I dislike using democracy to preach that everything is broken and we need a revolution. You and I aren't the only people who can vote. If people do believe everything is broken and we need a revolution, the revolution they choose might not be the one you had in mind. We saw this in 2016.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Somebody new and different. How bad could he be?

He looks an ageing Elmo Parsley with them sideboards.

OK. I'll bite. Wot!?

[Tepid water]

OK. I'll bite. Wot!?

Blue Sage shoes. 
A little less coriander


You must have heard of him?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Blue Sage shoes. 
A little less coriander

You must have heard of him?

Hmm. OK. I understand, but there is still something I'm missing here. But no matter.

[Nobby Reserve]

Blue Sage shoes. 
A little less coriander


You must have heard of him?

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

 

I don't really get it. I guess I'm all stuck up.

[disgraced cake]

Anyone else think Milei looks like Carm off The Bear or is it just me?

[Kennys Jacket]

Blue Sage shoes. 
A little less coriander


You must have heard of him?

[Nobby Reserve]

All going predictably terrible in Argentina as this far-right shitstain fucks everyone over except a small group of the capital-owning wealthy

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/27/poverty-rate-argentina-milei


Predictably, he's now making noises about the Falklands

[BarryCrocker]

All going predictably terrible in Argentina as this far-right shitstain fucks everyone over except a small group of the capital-owning wealthy

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/27/poverty-rate-argentina-milei


Predictably, he's now making noises about the Falklands

Another example of him struggling for his own ideas.

“We believe in defending everyone’s lives. We believe in defending everyone’s property. We believe in freedom of speech for everybody. We believe in freedom to worship for everybody. We believe in freedom of trade for everybody … And because in these times what happens in one country quickly has an impact in others, we believe all people should live free from tyranny and oppression, whether in the form of political oppression, economic slavery or religious fanaticism. This fundamental idea must not be mere words – it has to be supported by deeds: diplomatically, economically and materially.” - Javier Milei 24/09/2024 to the UN General Assembly

“We’re for freedom of speech everywhere. We’re for freedom to worship everywhere. We’re for freedom to learn … for everybody. And because in our time, you can build a bomb in your country and bring it to my country, what goes on in your country is very much my business. And so we are for freedom from tyranny, everywhere, whether in the guise of political oppression … or economic slavery … or religious fanaticism … That most fundamental idea cannot be met with merely our support. It has to be met with our strength: diplomatically, economically, materially.” - President Jed Bartlet in Episode 15, Season 4 of The West Wing.

[Giono]

All going predictably terrible in Argentina as this far-right shitstain fucks everyone over except a small group of the capital-owning wealthy

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/27/poverty-rate-argentina-milei


Predictably, he's now making noises about the Falklands

A libertarian that has massive tarrifs on foreign imports. Libertarian my arse. There are mules for electronics in Argentina.

His 1st action was to make the pro-cops leader of the traditional right wing party his interior secretary and then change the law to limit demonstrating. Libertarian my arse.

He downplays the atrocities of the military regime. Libertarian my arse.

[Gerry Attrick]

Everyone should be free of tyranny. Except an island that votes and identifies overwhelming as British. Everyone free of tyranny except them, who should be forced to be Argentinian. c*nts need to fuck off and I’m no nationalist. Britain should defend the Falklands with everything we have while the population want to be. No ifs no buts.

[BarryCrocker]

Everyone should be free of tyranny. Except an island that votes and identifies overwhelming as British. Everyone free of tyranny except them, who should be forced to be Argentinian. c*nts need to fuck off and I’m no nationalist. Britain should defend the Falklands with everything we have while the population want to be. No ifs no buts.

Sound like he's hitting the 'Thatcher' panic button as a distraction coupled with the UK handing back Chagos Islands.

[Nobby Reserve]

Sound like he's hitting the 'Thatcher' panic button as a distraction coupled with the UK handing back Chagos Islands.

It's the Galtieri playbook

[Yorkykopite]

It's the Galtieri playbook

Exactly.

Thatcher was the beneficiary, not the orchestrator.

[jambutty]

Baby Elvis denounces climate talks hours before leaving for Mar a Lago.

[mickeydocs]

Why does Britain need the Falklands? What is the strategic importance of these islands?

[Gerry Attrick]

Why does Britain need the Falklands? What is the strategic importance of these islands?

We need them because they want to be British. They don’t need a strategic importance when the population don’t want to be anything else.

[mickeydocs]

We need them because they want to be British.

Really, the UK is only interested in the c. 4,000 people and their sheep? Surely there's some strategic importance.
What's important about the Falklands? Drop the rhetoric that 'they want to be British' for a moment.
Why the interest in this part of the world?

Are there oil interests? A quick google search suggests 1.7billion barrels North of the Island.

So no doubt the UK are ready for the Border poll once the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland exceeds the Unionist population. Interesting times ahead.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Really, the UK is only interested in the c. 4,000 people and their sheep? Surely there's some strategic importance.
What's important about the Falklands? Drop the rhetoric that 'they want to be British' for a moment.
Why the interest in this part of the world?

Are there oil interests? A quick google search suggests 1.7billion barrels North of the Island.

So no doubt the UK are ready for the Border poll once the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland exceeds the Unionist population. Interesting times ahead.

Depends if you think the world is that simple, and all decisions boil down to "resources" or "no resources".  The UK government was willing to negotiate on the islands sovreignty in the 1950s/60s/70s and was making primarily conciliatory moves towards Argentina. There was a garrison of 42 marines, with no air or naval bases, on an island inhabited by 3,500 sheep farmers and fishermen. Hardly screams "strategic importance".  It's one of the reasons the Argentinian's throught they could get away with invading in the first place, as the British government had shown no signs that they held the islands in particular regard.

Argentina ended that by invading. Once the invasion had happened, the fact the population wanted to be British became the primary issue. How could any subsequent British government think about handing over sovereignty against the populations wishes after having already beaten back an invasion by a dictatorial regime?

Any resources that may or not be discovered there subsequently (which weren't known about in 1982) are incidental. Do you think Thatchers decision making process was, should I send an armada on the off chance that bilions of barrels of oil might be discovered here at some point in the future?

[west_london_red]

Really, the UK is only interested in the c. 4,000 people and their sheep? Surely there's some strategic importance.
What's important about the Falklands? Drop the rhetoric that 'they want to be British' for a moment.
Why the interest in this part of the world?

Are there oil interests? A quick google search suggests 1.7billion barrels North of the Island.

So no doubt the UK are ready for the Border poll once the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland exceeds the Unionist population. Interesting times ahead.

You could ask exactly the same question about the Argentines, why do they want islands with 4,000 people who don’t want to be theirs? What interest do the Argentines have in those islands?

[Yorkykopite]

Drop the rhetoric that 'they want to be British' for a moment.

In other words, drop the most salient point!

Jeez, whatever happened to the concept of 'self-determination'?

[So… Howard Philips]

In other words, drop the most salient point!

Jeez, whatever happened to the concept of 'self-determination'?

Well maybe the Donetsites don’t really want to be Ukrainian as well.

Argentina were making noises about retaking the Falklands in the 1970s. The Labour government let them know that they’d despatched submarines so the Argentinians pulled back.

A few years later the new Tory government, on one of their futile cost saving exercises, withdrew a survey ship (read spy ship) and Galtieri saw this as the red light to invade.

I remember at the time the usual appeasers were saying that the only reason we went to war (other than Thatcher’s reason to maintain power) was oil.

Forty years on and I’m not aware of a single drop being extracted.

Edit. It was strategically important in WW1 as a coal refuelling base and the scene of a naval engagement with the German navy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Falkland_Islands

When news of the invasion first filtered out no one knew where the Falklands were. At lunchtime my mate nipped out to Huyton library, consulted the Encyclopaedia Brittanica and rushed back with the location and news of a previous famous victory by the Senior Service.

Forty years on and a couple of clicks on your phone and you’d have all the information you need.

[Tepid water]

If the Argentinan dictatorship had not invaded the Falklands they would almost certainly have become first neutral and then Argentinan in time as that is the way bipartisan talks were going.

The Tory government couldnt have given two shits about them either way (or the previous labour government to be fair)as nobody had heard of them.

Because Galteriri came to power and was utterly impatient and …well… a dictator, he decided to invade and, that pissed thatcher off who saw an opportunity and…the rest is history

[classycarra]

Really, the UK is only interested in the c. 4,000 people and their sheep? Surely there's some strategic importance.
What's important about the Falklands? Drop the rhetoric that 'they want to be British' for a moment.
Why the interest in this part of the world?

Are there oil interests? A quick google search suggests 1.7billion barrels North of the Island.

So no doubt the UK are ready for the Border poll once the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland exceeds the Unionist population. Interesting times ahead.

hilariously ignorant. just remembered you're the guy who was sticking up for China the other day (and said that Iraq was stable before 2003, including during the Iran-Iraq war and Gulf war).

you have quite the selective concern about borders and self determination! when Argentina and China want to annex territory that has never been theirs, it's no biggie for you!

If the Argentinan dictatorship had not invaded the Falklands they would almost certainly have become first neutral and then Argentinan in time as that is the way bipartisan talks were going.

[Citation needed]

[Tepid water]

hilariously ignorant. just remembered you're the guy who was sticking up for China the other day (and said that Iraq was stable before 2003, including during the Iran-Iraq war and Gulf war).

you have quite the selective concern about borders and self determination! when Argentina and China want to annex territory that has never been theirs, it's no biggie for you!
[Citation needed]

No citation…this is from my memory

[So… Howard Philips]

If the Argentinan dictatorship had not invaded the Falklands they would almost certainly have become first neutral and then Argentinan in time as that is the way bipartisan talks were going.

The Tory government couldnt have given two shits about them either way (or the previous labour government to be fair)as nobody had heard of them.

Because Galteriri came to power and was utterly impatient and …well… a dictator, he decided to invade and, that pissed thatcher off who saw an opportunity and…the rest is history

Not quite. Unless you discount the two submarines and support shops despatched in 1977.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/01/argentina.military

[Reform Ste 123]

Sounds like Milei Is doing a fantastic job turning Argentina around after a disastrous leftist government ruined the country. Out of recession, inflation massively down, getting rid of rent controls is massively reducing rental prices, his approval rating keeps on rising.

Four in 10 adults (41%) say their city’s economy is getting better, a significant increase from 25% in 2023. The percentage of Argentines who say their standard of living is getting better (53%) has inched above the majority level for the first time since 2015.

Just another reminder that socialism doesn’t work.

[TSC]

Sounds like Milei Is doing a fantastic job turning Argentina around after a disastrous leftist government ruined the country. Out of recession, inflation massively down, getting rid of rent controls is massively reducing rental prices, his approval rating keeps on rising.

Four in 10 adults (41%) say their city’s economy is getting better, a significant increase from 25% in 2023. The percentage of Argentines who say their standard of living is getting better (53%) has inched above the majority level for the first time since 2015.

Just another reminder that socialism doesn’t work.

Source?  Absent any source I’d guess austerity measures may be the driver.  As experienced here such measures may deliver short term gain at the expense of medium-long term pain.

[Reform Ste 123]

Source?  Absent any source I’d guess austerity measures may be the driver.  As experienced here such measures may deliver short term gain at the expense of medium-long term pain.

Approval rating: https://www.as-coa.org/articles/approval-tracker-argentinas-president-javier-milei


Effects of Rental control scrapped :  https://www.wsj.com/world/americas/argentina-milei-rent-control-free-market-5345c3d5?st=c4sdyty0vtwjzsm&reflink=article_copyURL_share

“BUENOS AIRES—For years, Argentina imposed one of the world’s strictest rent-control laws. It was meant to keep homes such as the stately belle epoque apartments of Buenos Aires affordable, but instead, officials here say, rents soared.

Now, the country’s new president, Javier Milei, has scrapped the rental law, along with most government price controls, in a fiscal experiment that he is conducting to revive South America’s second-biggest economy.


Landlords are rushing to put their properties back on the market, with Buenos Aires rental supplies increasing by over 170%. While rents are still up in nominal terms, many renters are getting better deals than ever, with a 40% decline in the real price of rental properties when adjusted for inflation since last October, said Federico González Rouco, an economist at Buenos Aires-based Empiria Consultores.


Inflation dropping to 3 year low: https://apnews.com/article/argentina-inflation-milei-economy-21560cec4fd473a95155adf06ca46c4a

Out of recession : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-12-20/argentina-s-economy-expanded-faster-than-expected-in-october


In reality he hasn’t done the austerity the uk had to do, he had had to fundamentally change the structure of their economy, 55% of all registered workers where employed by government, that’s not sustainable.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Approval rating: https://www.as-coa.org/articles/approval-tracker-argentinas-president-javier-milei


Effects of Rental control scrapped :  https://www.wsj.com/world/americas/argentina-milei-rent-control-free-market-5345c3d5?st=c4sdyty0vtwjzsm&reflink=article_copyURL_share

“BUENOS AIRES—For years, Argentina imposed one of the world’s strictest rent-control laws. It was meant to keep homes such as the stately belle epoque apartments of Buenos Aires affordable, but instead, officials here say, rents soared.

Now, the country’s new president, Javier Milei, has scrapped the rental law, along with most government price controls, in a fiscal experiment that he is conducting to revive South America’s second-biggest economy.


Landlords are rushing to put their properties back on the market, with Buenos Aires rental supplies increasing by over 170%. While rents are still up in nominal terms, many renters are getting better deals than ever, with a 40% decline in the real price of rental properties when adjusted for inflation since last October, said Federico González Rouco, an economist at Buenos Aires-based Empiria Consultores.


Inflation dropping to 3 year low: https://apnews.com/article/argentina-inflation-milei-economy-21560cec4fd473a95155adf06ca46c4a

Out of recession : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-12-20/argentina-s-economy-expanded-faster-than-expected-in-october


In reality he hasn’t done the austerity the uk had to do, he had had to fundamentally change the structure of their economy, 55% of all registered workers where employed by government, that’s not sustainable.

He is also facing 53% poverty

[Reform Ste 123]

He is also facing 53% poverty

They were already in poverty. Their government was just hiding the numbers through price fixing, currency manipulation, and excessive spending/money printing, hence inflation being through the roof. All the new administration's measures did was unmask how deep the problem really was when you pull up the curtain so you are now getting numbers closer to the reality that was already there.

[Giono]

Sounds like Milei Is doing a fantastic job turning Argentina around after a disastrous leftist government ruined the country. Out of recession, inflation massively down, getting rid of rent controls is massively reducing rental prices, his approval rating keeps on rising.

Four in 10 adults (41%) say their city’s economy is getting better, a significant increase from 25% in 2023. The percentage of Argentines who say their standard of living is getting better (53%) has inched above the majority level for the first time since 2015.

Just another reminder that socialism doesn’t work.

Inflation is down because nobody has any money to spend. Eventually you can't ask people to pay more. They've hit the limit. And there is ridiculous shrinkflation going on. Smaller and poorer quality/ingredients for a higher price

The street currency exchange rate has risen because US paper currency is how people save money. Before they had savings and went looking to convert their pesos to dollars...so the peso declined. But now they need those savings to live, so the peso is in more demand. The official rate is set by the government and there are limits on exchanging dollars.

Millei says he is a 'libertarian' :he has dropped price controls on medicine, health insurance, public transportation and some food. University tuition is up too But he has not lowered the tariffs that protect his rich industrialist friends. Nothing is imported. Hell, there are professional mules that bring electronics in from Miami.

People living below the poverty line is now north of 55%. It was 40% in 2023 .

Argentina was F'ed by historical bad policy from the left and right. As well as not responding to historical changes like the Panama Canal and losing the European market for their agrarian export economy after WW2.