Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24  (Read 82110 times)

Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #520 on: April 17, 2024, 02:30:17 am »
One could fit a negative slope to our live after week 5. Cheats and Arsenal's trends are almost horizontal in the second half of the season; that's champion's form... Still waiting for Arsenal's implosion, I think it will happen, but the Cheats' cookie is harder to crumple.
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Online gazzam1963

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #521 on: April 21, 2024, 06:51:36 pm »
Back to -3 and back to the top

Offline moloch

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #522 on: April 28, 2024, 08:12:55 pm »
I assume both City and Arsenal are now ahead of us in the APLT.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #523 on: April 28, 2024, 10:02:02 pm »





Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #524 on: April 28, 2024, 10:07:17 pm »
I think it's interesting to see that the home records are all below the average expected of a league winning team.  Something worth watching going forward.  Is it a blip or is it because more teams are being competitive away from home?

Offline johnny74

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #525 on: April 29, 2024, 12:53:26 am »
First half of that graph. That's typical title winning form. We just ran out of steam.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #526 on: April 29, 2024, 06:21:48 am »
Arsenal and Man City have won all 7 of their par 3 away games.  We dropped 7 points in ours.

Online courty61

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #527 on: April 29, 2024, 09:52:34 am »
Arsenal and Man City have won all 7 of their par 3 away games.  We dropped 7 points in ours.

Beat the dross. Win the league
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #528 on: April 29, 2024, 10:05:47 am »
Beat the dross. Win the league

To be fair generally we were doing that, bar that Luton result. More recently though, that went to shit.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #529 on: April 29, 2024, 10:05:24 pm »
To be fair generally we were doing that, bar that Luton result. More recently though, that went to shit.
Which is why we were in the running.  It's this idea that the game against man Utd was a catastrophe that has annoyed me.  It damaged confidence more than our title chances.  You don't lose the league by dropping points in those games.  You do it by losing at home to crystal Palace and away at Everton (although in fairness, Everton away is a different proposition for us than for the other two, but Spurs and West Ham are probably harder for arsenal than for other teams).

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #530 on: April 29, 2024, 10:21:08 pm »
Which is why we were in the running.  It's this idea that the game against man Utd was a catastrophe that has annoyed me.  It damaged confidence more than our title chances.  You don't lose the league by dropping points in those games.  You do it by losing at home to crystal Palace and away at Everton (although in fairness, Everton away is a different proposition for us than for the other two, but Spurs and West Ham are probably harder for arsenal than for other teams).

Good post, and thank you for all the work you do for this thread, every season. It’s by far one of my favourite threads (setting aside my personal dislike of the mockers meme  :D )

As I’ve noted elsewhere, as someone who thinks defence is the most important facet of a challenging team, I am also convinced our psychological collapse has been precipitated by the constant falling behind through conceding the first goal. I don’t think even “mentality monsters” can keep doing that game after game. I damn sure I have found it utterly draining and I’m just a fan.

It’s interesting to me that we have always faced two really challenging rivals in Everton and United, that consistently prove to be very tough games even if they are struggling. Arsenal have the same, two “derbies” in Chelsea and Spurs. Abu Dhabi has none (even their supposed derby rivals, Manchester United, unfailingly refuse to turn up against them. I don’t think the APLT can account for this - especially since it’s a personal bias, possibly only anecdotal rather than evidenced) but it seems to be a factor in the title race each year.
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Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #531 on: April 30, 2024, 05:40:52 am »
Even from week 6 to 31 our performance has a negative slope. Staying on that we could have lost the league. City had a slump week 13-15, arsenal had two bad results around week 18, then then both were more or less on par. To me, the bigger problem was not the most recent slump in our form, it was that loss or draw here and there all year long.
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Online courty61

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #532 on: May 12, 2024, 07:19:30 am »
I know this thread has died a death in recent weeks, but am I correct in saying it is the first time that City have been top on their own all season now?
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #533 on: May 12, 2024, 12:29:05 pm »
I know this thread has died a death in recent weeks, but am I correct in saying it is the first time that City have been top on their own all season now?
Oops. I missed the last update didn't I? Sorry

I'll get an update done after our match on Monday.  But yes, man city are top on this at the moment. First time all season (if you don't count round 34 as they played theirs at the same time as Arsenal played round 35).

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #534 on: May 12, 2024, 12:36:46 pm »
Something else I've been quietly thinking for a while is that we seem to have these catastrophe moments each season.  A short period where nothing seems to go right and we have a run of awful results (comparatively speaking).

My hypothesis, (which is very anecdotal and I haven't even looked to see if these periods do exist season to season) is that we get a bit found out tactically after a period of finding a way of playing that gives us a run of good results.  It's like one team finds a way of hurting us that others the copy and it becomes a blueprint for playing against us.  We then have to adapt our system again (or refine a specific role in the structure) then get it together again.

My frustration has been how long it takes for these things to be corrected.  Having an alternative way of playing when we do get found out might be a way to limit the damage caused by these runs.

Or, I might be miles off with this theory.


Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #535 on: May 12, 2024, 12:56:05 pm »
Something else I've been quietly thinking for a while is that we seem to have these catastrophe moments each season.  A short period where nothing seems to go right and we have a run of awful results (comparatively speaking).

My hypothesis, (which is very anecdotal and I haven't even looked to see if these periods do exist season to season) is that we get a bit found out tactically after a period of finding a way of playing that gives us a run of good results.  It's like one team finds a way of hurting us that others the copy and it becomes a blueprint for playing against us.  We then have to adapt our system again (or refine a specific role in the structure) then get it together again.

My frustration has been how long it takes for these things to be corrected.  Having an alternative way of playing when we do get found out might be a way to limit the damage caused by these runs.

Or, I might be miles off with this theory.



I mentioned on another thread that we seem to be prone to a head loss moment when it seems something is out of reach. In 16/17, when we started to drop out of the title race we hit a sticky patch and it took a while to compose ourself for fourth. In the covid season 20/21, we were in a race then when we were out we collapsed. Last season we have a bad start and then are awful for ages. This season knocked out the cup and one or two dodgy league performances and all confidence is lost.

Other teams seem to be able to ride a couple of bad results and recalibrate. I actually think a good reason we came third is because we challenged for the title. If we hadnt then i think third or fourth may have been a struggle, we cant seem to coast, its all or nothing.

I dont know whether thats the fault of the players and their mentality, the manager and how emotional his approach is, the tactics, or maybe thats just us as a club in that we are all or nothing.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #536 on: May 12, 2024, 02:07:55 pm »
I mentioned on another thread that we seem to be prone to a head loss moment when it seems something is out of reach. In 16/17, when we started to drop out of the title race we hit a sticky patch and it took a while to compose ourself for fourth. In the covid season 20/21, we were in a race then when we were out we collapsed. Last season we have a bad start and then are awful for ages. This season knocked out the cup and one or two dodgy league performances and all confidence is lost.

Other teams seem to be able to ride a couple of bad results and recalibrate. I actually think a good reason we came third is because we challenged for the title. If we hadnt then i think third or fourth may have been a struggle, we cant seem to coast, its all or nothing.

I dont know whether thats the fault of the players and their mentality, the manager and how emotional his approach is, the tactics, or maybe thats just us as a club in that we are all or nothing.
Yes. Mentality certainly seems part of it.  One of the reasons I started thinking about the APLT model was to remove the impact of other teams' results on yourself.  If you are focused on where you are in the league week to week, it makes the pressure and focus different.  If you focus on what you can control and spend more time thinking about process, generally you'll be more stable mentally.

Focus on the points you can achieve, and the league will be what it is.  I see the plus 90 point seasons as being brilliant, regardless of the league position at the end (you can't control how another team is going to perform in 36 matches, and I'll avoid opening up the discussions about fair play etc).

Take that same process focused approach to a game situation, and you'll reduce the difficulty of doing things when the pressure is on (opening the scoring or being behind).  Generally I think Klopp's Liverpool team have done this really well and the language he uses is certainly in keeping with this approach. I think the issue is that sometimes the individual player can't operate in line with that theoretical approach (it's what makes the greats so good).

Years ago I worked in performance golf (hence the par score idea).  The approach for the best golfers is often process related for the most part.  There's a fascinating part of Jack Nicklaus's Golf My Way book which describes how he foscues on process.  There's a reason he won more majors than anyone.

For the most part, Klopp has done a brilliant job around the psychology of his teams, so it's frustrating if it was psychology that caused these poor runs.  I like to think it might also be influenced by opposition teams exploiting a tactical weakness and us not adapting quickly enough to this (or simply not having the players available to overcome the issue).

Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #537 on: May 12, 2024, 04:49:38 pm »
While there are undoubtedly many factors which contribute to slumps, it's hard to look past injuries as the primary reason.