Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[alonsoisared]

Funny how those who keep arguing it's not bias or corruption couldn't find an excuse for this one

You literally said yesterday that it's not corruption

[Eeyore]

Taylor wasnt having LFC scoring any quick witted shit on his watch. Does anyone believe that Divoks Barca goal wouldve stood with PGMOL in charge?

Given Diaz's goal wasn't allowed to stand then probably no.

[Yorkykopite]

I will ask again.

I will ask again.

The million pound question for me is whether you think Taylor deliberately denying Liverpool a goal scoring opportunity was bias. I mean Taylor did absolutely nothing wrong. He indicated to the keeper to play on. He wasn't covering up his own mistake when he cheated and told Areola to go to ground.

So was it an act of affection to Areola or was it just his bias coming to the fore and he didn't want Liverpool to score from a mistake. Furthermore if Ali had done the same thing do you think he would have blown his whistle told our physios to come on and told Ali to go to ground.

Are you mad? He did everything wrong. Rank incompetence followed by an astonishing decision to cover up his mistake by asking the goalie to hit the floor. Would he have done the same with Alisson? We'll never ever know. But I'd have thought probably.

It's a boring question though since neither of us can know the answer and there is no evidence either that will clinch it.

Let me ask you a question about the Gabriel hand ball now. Was the referee biased towards Arsenal or was that just incompetence?

[Peabee]

You literally said yesterday that it's not corruption

Maybe he's including himself in that statement. 

[Eeyore]

Are you mad? He did everything wrong. Rank incompetence followed by an astonishing decision to cover up his mistake by asking the goalie to hit the floor. Would he have done the same with Alisson? We'll never ever know. But I'd have thought probably.

It's a boring question though since neither of us can know the answer and there is no evidence either that will clinch it.

Let me ask you a question about the Gabriel hand ball now. Was the referee biased towards Arsenal or was that just incompetence?

No Areola made the mistake not Taylor. Areola had a brain fart and thought he had been awarded a free kick. Taylor did not blow his whistle to cover up a mistake he had made. He saw Gakpo bearing down on goal and then blew his whistle.

As for the Gabriel it is far more nuanced. Players regularly give the ball to a team mate at restarts. A good example is when a player looks to take a quick throw in and then decides to throw it under arm to the regular throw in taker. By the letter of the law you could deem that action a foul throw.

I think Nyberg made a poor decision but it is far less straight forward than a player awarding himself a free kick.

[kasperoff]

I recorded MOTD just to see what got said. Pearce glossed over in comms, saying Taylor knew Areola was injured. Lineker, Shearer and Wright, especially Wright, had a right go about it and they highlighted that Taylor called for the physios and the physios had absolutely no idea that Areola was injured. They actually said he (Taylor) is telling Areola to go down to cover his mistake.

The big issue is that its not getting proper coverage. MOTD has an average viewer figure of 4 million and is only available in the UK, the BBC website gets over 1 billion visits a month and says fuck all about it, while yapping on about the Mo/Klopp tiff

We are covered differently from other teams. Klopp has done an amazing job of keeping he nose clean and giving the media nothing to cling on to an make a fuss about. The moment any type of controversy come round and they are on it like a rat up a drain pipe. A spat between a player and manager at another team get zero coverage.

If it was Liverpool facing 115 charges, it would be all over the news. It would be used to generate the column inches you'd expect a massive story like this to do.

On to referring. We've been royally shafted this season to the point we've been effectively taken out of the title race. Massive decisions in big games has gone against us time and time again. Spurs, Man City and Arsenal decisions were all massive and all went against us. It sticks to high heaven.

[alonsoisared]

Maybe he's including himself in that statement. 

We all have these internal wranglings from time to time

[redbyrdz]

No Areola made the mistake not Taylor. Areola had a brain fart and thought he had been awarded a free kick. Taylor did not blow his whistle to cover up a mistake he had made. He saw Gakpo bearing down on goal and then blew his whistle.

I think Taylor turned around a saw what looked like the keeper taking a freekick, and Gakpo approaching. He blew his whistle, and after that realised he hadn't actually given a freekick and had now fucked up. Thats when he remembered the keeper had hurt his foot when he caught the ball, so he decided he'd cover up his fuckup by pretending the keeper needed medical attention.

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with Liverpool, I think he's just a shite ref who is way too much up his own arse, so he'd never even consider admitting his own mistakes.

[stoa]

I think Nyberg made a poor decision but it is far less straight forward than a player awarding himself a free kick.

Is it though? Raya clearly places the ball in a manner to take the goal kick and then does so. The ball is in play from that point on and Raya is in no way indicating that that wasn't a goal kick and he just wanted to give the ball to Gabriel. The latter still picks up the ball with his hand. Whether it's a lapse in concentration or whatever, that's a penalty. The explanation of not giving a penalty for a "kid's mistake" is a joke. It's a CL-quarterfinal, you shouldn't make "kid's mistakes", if you want to win one of the biggest trophies in football there is.

My feeling is that the same thing happened in our game. Taylor wanted to help out a player who had just lost his concentration and made a mistake. You can't do that though, when those mistakes (and especially avoiding them) is part of the game. You'd never hear anyone say the ref should have blown the whistle when Quansah gave the ball away and we conceded a goal as a result of that. Same should be true in an instance where a player thinks he has a freekick, but doesn't. Once Taylor realised what he had done, he was looking for a way out and just called on the physios to have a look at Areola.

[Eeyore]

Is it though? Raya clearly places the ball in a manner to take the goal kick and then does so. The ball is in play from that point on and Raya is in no way indicating that that wasn't a goal kick and he just wanted to give the ball to Gabriel. The latter still picks up the ball with his hand. Whether it's a lapse in concentration or whatever, that's a penalty. The explanation of not giving a penalty for a "kid's mistake" is a joke. It's a CL-quarterfinal, you shouldn't make "kid's mistakes", if you want to win one of the biggest trophies in football there is.

My feeling is that the same thing happened in our game. Taylor wanted to help out a player who had just lost his concentration and made a mistake. You can't do that though, when those mistakes (and especially avoiding them) is part of the game. You'd never hear anyone say the ref should have blown the whistle when Quansah gave the ball away and we conceded a goal as a result of that. Same should be true in an instance where a player thinks he has a freekick, but doesn't. Once Taylor realised what he had done, he was looking for a way out and just called on the physios to have a look at Areola.

I think it is poor decision by the referee but as I said it isn't clearcut unlike the Areola one.

I mean the referee awards a free kick blows his whistle and then a player decides to rotate the ball or move it slightly. Technically you could say that was handball. It would be ridiculous to do so.

[Yorkykopite]

I think it is poor decision by the referee but as I said it isn't clearcut unlike the Areola one.

I mean the referee awards a free kick blows his whistle and then a player decides to rotate the ball or move it slightly. Technically you could say that was handball. It would be ridiculous to do so.

But that's nothing like what happened. The closest comparison would be someone responding to the ref's whistle, taking a free kick to a teammate and the teammate deciding to pick the ball up instead of shooting. It never happens.

That is precisely what ties the two incidents together. "It never happens". In both cases the referee sees the thing that "never happens" and he can't get his stupid head round it and so he brings the whole thing to a crashing halt.

It's deeply symptomatic of the modern refereeing condition. Not bias. Just stupidity.

[Fromola]

I don't buy it that Taylor deliberately cheated (our season done anyway, under massive scrutiny after being the ref against Forest last week). He's fucked up and tried to cover it up, as will SYP Webb in getting their stories straight.

Soft arse Liverpool will not make a big deal of it and it'll be swept under the carpet. Imagine if that happened to Forest today to deny them an equaliser.

[rob1966]

I don't buy it that Taylor deliberately cheated (our season done anyway, under massive scrutiny after being the ref against Forest last week). He's fucked up and tried to cover it up, as will SYP Webb in getting their stories straight.

Soft arse Liverpool will not make a big deal of it and it'll be swept under the carpet. Imagine if that happened to Forest today to deny them an equaliser.

He does deliberately cheat though, he tells Areola to fake an injury to attempt to cover his own arse - faking injuries is cheating and a referee making a player fake an injury is even worse.

[Yorkykopite]

He does deliberately cheat though, he tells Areola to fake an injury to attempt to cover his own arse - faking injuries is cheating and a referee making a player fake an injury is even worse.

I do agree with that. I don't see how he can survive that as a referee. It should be a crisis moment in his career. The consequences for the league title race are irrelevant. What is relevant is that he appears to have tried to make the West Ham goalie complicit in his charade in order to cover his error.

[Mister Flip Flop]

If the Spurs, Man City, West Ham and Arsenal decisions hadn't been called against us we'd be top of the table right now. I can't ever remember this much corruption against another team in this league.

[Peabee]

I think Taylor turned around a saw what looked like the keeper taking a freekick, and Gakpo approaching. He blew his whistle, and after that realised he hadn't actually given a freekick and had now fucked up. Thats when he remembered the keeper had hurt his foot when he caught the ball, so he decided he'd cover up his fuckup by pretending the keeper needed medical attention.

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with Liverpool, I think he's just a shite ref who is way too much up his own arse, so he'd never even consider admitting his own mistakes.

Why would the ref think there was a freekick, when that same ref didn't give a freekick? Incompetence keeps being used as an excuse, yet their mistakes are getting worse and more bizarre.

[Peabee]

I don't buy it that Taylor deliberately cheated (our season done anyway, under massive scrutiny after being the ref against Forest last week). He's fucked up and tried to cover it up, as will SYP Webb in getting their stories straight.

Soft arse Liverpool will not make a big deal of it and it'll be swept under the carpet. Imagine if that happened to Forest today to deny them an equaliser.

That's a form of "cheating" as he subverted the rules.

[rob1966]

Reminds me of this, scroll to 1:00, yet this was allowed to stand

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk</a>

[Peabee]

Reminds me of this, scroll to 1:00, yet this was allowed to stand

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk</a>

I can see why Forest employed Clattenburg for inside info...

[Andy82lfc]

Reminds me of this, scroll to 1:00, yet this was allowed to stand

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk</a>

If it was one isolated incident fair enough but it's repeated.

These straws people are clutching at to protect these refs must be pretty worn out by now.

Taylor shits himself thinking we are going to grab a winner and almost blows the whistle out of his mouth. That is not the actions of a calm ref that is one who has panicked as they don't want something to happen, clear as fucking day after he literally tells the goalkeeper to fake an injury. I can't ever remember in the history of the game seeing a ref telling a player to fake an injury, especially when he has just chalked a goal off. If he is just 'shit' then he blows the whistle throws a drop ball to the keeper and carries on. These refs are arrogant as fuck, he doesn't need to go and tell the keeper to fake an injury but that's pure panic to try and cover his tracks as he has just shown his arse.

I mean, if he is just shit he can easily let the goal go in also, but it's always incompetence against us right? Funny that. Have we had maybe a crazy offside var this season in our favour, or a freeze frame red card, a last minute kick to the chest we got away with, or a ref actually telling our player to fake an injury!? No, but yeah it's all just incompetence and repeated coincidence against us and I'm sure other teams they have bias for/against.

Gone the game less than ever this season and I can't see me going next year, I've become way less attached to it than a once daily obsession it used to be. The cheat's done most of it, Klopp is going to take a lot out also, but it's now impossible to watch with these refs doing this more and more often, I can't remember a season like it this year. Yet the club does nothing and PGMOL (even if by a miracle it is all incompetence) smile away and allow manc refs to ref rival games and others to be actually paid by Man city's owners. The whole thing is utterly absurd and corruption, bias, incompetence or whatever way people want to call it I'm not going to be taken for a ride anymore, can't be arsed.

[Eeyore]

But that's nothing like what happened. The closest comparison would be someone responding to the ref's whistle, taking a free kick to a teammate and the teammate deciding to pick the ball up instead of shooting. It never happens.

That is precisely what ties the two incidents together. "It never happens". In both cases the referee sees the thing that "never happens" and he can't get his stupid head round it and so he brings the whole thing to a crashing halt.

It's deeply symptomatic of the modern refereeing condition. Not bias. Just stupidity.

It does happen though that is the point. How often do you see a teammate kick the ball in the direction of the player who is going to take the free kick so he can position the ball? How often do you see a player go to take a quick throw-in decide it is not on and throw it to the regular throw-in taker?

I can think of three incidents straightaway involving Liverpool that show how nuanced restarts are.

The first one involved Attwell and was one of the reasons he got demoted from the select group.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/feb/15/stuart-attwell-dropped-premier-league-referees
Later that year he awarded Liverpool a highly controversial goal against Sunderland. He had awarded the Black Cats a free-kick inside their own half and Michael Turner touched the ball back to Simon Mignolet, apparently for the goalkeeper to take the set piece.

But Attwell ruled the ball active, allowing Fernando Torres to steal in and set up Dirk Kuyt to finish into an unguarded net.

Now by the letter of the law, Attwell was correct. However how many times do you see a player kick the ball to where the free kick taker is going to take the free kick from.

Secondly was the Derby game when the ball was smashed against Ferguson and ended up going in.

Thirdly we used to have a corner routine in which a player would make it look like he was going to take the corner put his foot on the ball and then leave it for a teammate mate who would then dribble the ball into the area. IIRC we tried it twice the first time the ref blew up the second it worked. That shows the ambiguity of when a restart takes place.

For me with the Arsenal game I think it was a mistake however that is far more ambiguous than the Areola incident. In the Arsenal one there is a level of ambiguity because it is a restart. The Areola one is from open play.

[Avens]

If the Spurs, Man City, West Ham and Arsenal decisions hadn't been called against us we'd be top of the table right now. I can't ever remember this much corruption against another team in this league.

To be fair though, I imagine you probably pay a lot more attention to the ones that go against us, than those that go against anyone else.

[Avens]

If it was one isolated incident fair enough but it's repeated.

These straws people are clutching at to protect these refs must be pretty worn out by now.

Just to point out, again, that I don't think anyone is trying to protect refs.

[Wghennessy]

Just to point out, again, that I don't think anyone is trying to protect refs.

I think the fact that this seems to have been brushed under the carpet suggests otherwise. They need to explain what the fuck happened.

[Avens]

I think the fact that this seems to have been brushed under the carpet suggests otherwise. They need to explain what the fuck happened.

Oh right, I thought Andy meant in this thread, but he may well have meant the wider world (more important than RAWK, some might say). As you were.

[Yorkykopite]

So you're now saying Taylor must be biased against Liverpool. But Attwell is biassed towards Liverpool?

[Fromola]

That's a form of "cheating" as he subverted the rules.

Yeah but in terms of the bottom line, once he blew the whistle then any goal couldn't stand. I think he's reacted quickly in embarrassment, going over to the keeper.

Taylor will be going to the Euros and was at the heart of controversy last week.

[Fromola]

Reminds me of this, scroll to 1:00, yet this was allowed to stand

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/o1nIcDslWGk</a>

The offside goal in the Manchester Derby last season was a scandal.

[Peabee]

Taylor has been a referee since 2002, when he was 23, so I don't buy all these "incompetence" excuses for him. Unless he's suffered severe cognitive decline recently.

[rossipersempre]

Taylor has been a referee since 2002, when he was 23, so I don't buy all these "incompetence" excuses for him. Unless he's suffered severe cognitive decline recently.

22 years' experience in the same job can also be the equivalent of 1 year's experience, only repeated 11 times.

[Eeyore]

So you're now saying Taylor must be biased against Liverpool. But Attwell is biassed towards Liverpool?

You have now resorted to not even quoting my post.

Epic trolling mate.

Your whole argument is laughable. Based on directly opposite theories. Firstly that referees are professional so their sense of professional pride and desire to be the best they can be rules out any bias whatsoever. Then you switch tack and argue these very same super-professional referees only make mistakes because they are incompetent.

Which one is it Yorky mate?

As for Attwell he isn't biased so much as absolutely terrified of making a decision or sending a Ref to the monitor. He is a 'Patsy' and that is why he is VAR for so many of our games. Compare Patsy Atwell with the Doku challenge to a foreign VAR with the same Referee yesterday in the North London Derby. 

[Yorkykopite]

You have now resorted to not even quoting my post.

To be honest I couldn't see the relevance of the point you were making about throw ins. I think that was because it wasn't relevant. But that's you all over Eeyore. If you have no answers, then just change the question.

It was interesting to me that Attwell gave us that goal v Sunderland though. I thought he was one of the referees who was part of the PGMOL anti-Liverpool conspiracy. So that's a tough incident to explain away. Thanks for posting.

As for this:

Your whole argument is laughable. Based on directly opposite theories. Firstly that referees are professional so their sense of professional pride and desire to be the best they can be rules out any bias whatsoever. Then you switch tack and argue these very same super-professional referees only make mistakes because they are incompetent.

Which one is it Yorky mate?

I realise you don't have a supple mind. But where's the contradiction? Why can't a person have professional pride AND be bad at their job?

[Cafe De Paris]

What a wretched referee that Taylor is. The most incompetent official ever. No wonder mourinho got the ump with him. Every other week he fucks up. Yet he gets a game every other week. I honestly can’t believe what he did. He knew he fkd up. Hence telling their goalie to sit down and get treatment.

[rob1966]

What a wretched referee that Taylor is. The most incompetent official ever. No wonder mourinho got the ump with him. Every other week he fucks up. Yet he gets a game every other week. I honestly can’t believe what he did. He knew he fkd up. Hence telling their goalie to sit down and get treatment.

Him and Atwell have the BVB v PSG CL semi

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The interesting thing about this thread is that despite all that is being said, every single week there has been something else absolutely batshit to explain away/discuss/talk about.

That in itself is fucking weird.

That we don't get reffed 'normally' appears to be pretty apparant when pretty much** every single game throws up something that is unreal.


**Possibly every game, certainly seems like every week.


Has anyone got a compiled list of league games when outrageous/bizarre/fucked up/shite decisions HAVEN'T gone against us? Not just saying in games where we've won either.

[Elzar]

One could argue that referees are fatigued and making silly mistakes as a result, but that just puts flying out to Abu Dhabi between premier league games in to question even more. Ignoring the fact they will be getting paid massive amounts from an owner of one of the clubs in the league they normally referee in.

They are incompetent and many making mistake week after week, it's got a lot worse under Webb. The premier league clubs should be requesting big changes at the end of the season and investigations into it all.

[Paul JH]

Has anyone got a compiled list of league games when outrageous/bizarre/fucked up/shite decisions HAVEN'T gone against us? Not just saying in games where we've won either.

Had this discussion with Utd fan the other day Andy, and we agreed that City NEVER have a single dodgy decision go against them. Ever.

How many controversial incidents have happened with them? The Grealish running through one and since then, absolutely nothing. They never have a decision that is controversial. Or 'why did the ref do that?!?!' (unless it's in their favour). People like to mock the conspiracy posts, but Christ you'd have to be oblivious to everything if they believe there isn't any dodgy stuff going on behind the scenes in this league.

[Eeyore]

Him and Atwell have the BVB v PSG CL semi

To be fair that is only because Laurel and Hardy are dead. Add in the loss of one of the chuckle brothers and they have had to go with Taylor and Attwell. It is a step down but what can you do?

[Yorkykopite]

The interesting thing about this thread is that despite all that is being said, every single week there has been something else absolutely batshit to explain away/discuss/talk about.

That in itself is fucking weird.

And, of course, no one in the thread disagrees with that. There might be occasional disputes about whether this or that was a hand ball and should haver been a penalty or whether this or that was a genuine foul or a dive. But on the whole everyone in the thread thinks that refereeing standards are poor and that VAR has probably made them worse. (I would add that VAR and - obviously - multi-positioned high-speed cameras around the pitch, have also educated us, the fans, who are able to spot more 'batshit' decisions than before.)

Where we differ and sometimes fall apart are over why terrible decisions are being made and whether we, as a club, suffer more than others and have systematically suffered more than others over the years.

[JRed]

And, of course, no one in the thread disagrees with that. There might be occasional disputes about whether this or that was a hand ball and should haver been a penalty or whether this or that was a genuine foul or a dive. But on the whole everyone in the thread thinks that refereeing standards are poor and that VAR has probably made them worse. (I would add that VAR and - obviously - multi-positioned high-speed cameras around the pitch, have also educated us, the fans, who are able to spot more 'batshit' decisions than before.)

Where we differ and sometimes fall apart are over why terrible decisions are being made and whether we, as a club, suffer more than others and have systematically suffered more than others over the years.

I don’t think it’s even debatable whether we suffer more at the hands of the corrupt officials than other clubs is it?