Topic: Football has been taken away from us

[kingkop182]

I mean people arriving 5-10 ins late, then sliding to the bar for a hotdog with 35-40 mins gone, and then leaving the game with 80 minutes gone to get back to the car…..what the fuckin ells that?

Best point i've read all day!! If there was one thing i could change it would people coming and only watching 75 mins of the match.  Either come and give you Full support or fuck off and let the ticket go to somebody who will.

[Life]

Spot on Roper.  There's loads feeling like it's not theirs these days -  to me it's been getting like it since the early 90s.

Scousers spin around wondering what the fuck has happened and often try for the easy answer of OOT.
Others blame Sky TV.
Others blame seats.
Others blame agents
Others blame the champions league.
Others blame the huge wages players earn these days.
Others blame greedy clubs wanting to fleece every last penny.

They're all to blame and loads more besides.  Like you said, I'm looking forward to the implosion.  I'm not a regular match goer - since my last season ticket year in 1990 I've probably been to around 10-15 games a year.  Sometimes it's been easy, I've had money, I've had time.  A fair few years it's been anything but because I had neither.  But creeping up on me more and more recently has been the realisation that when I finally get to my seat after 3 or 4 hours of shite traffic, £60 lamped out and a shitty drive home to come - they're not arsed.  They're not putting the effort in, and they don't give a flying one about me.  There's not really a two-way relationship going on here - and how can there be.  I pay 3/10000 of Stevie Gerrard's weekly wage.  Give it a whole year and I'm paying about 1/1000th of his weekly wage.  So all my effort, all my graft (and I'm not saying it's all without it's rewards - last season I had a blast at times - ditto 2001 and 2002 and a few years in the mid 90s) and it literally means that 1000 other people will have to do the same for a season to pay for one week's wages for Gerrard.
We're too far away from them. Their reality isn't ours.  To expect them to give a toss about our banners, our songs, our dreams - it's too much to expect.

The fans have changed as well - in their defence it's more than likely hugely influenced by some of what I've put above, and what Roper's post was on about.
The Carling Cup final nearly had me fighting with other Liverpool fans there were winding me up so much slagging the players off while the game was still there to be won.

Last season with the champions league run was my last hurrah (and what a last hurrah that was) - I'll hardly ever be going anymore.

[harrytrow]

I've been going for 48 years now and I don't remember it being any different.
You talk of Rush etc, well I used to drive the team to Melwood from Anfield back in Tosh and Keegans day.
The only guy who bothered to acknowledge me was Ray Kennedy.
The rest were a bunch of 'stars'. I even played against Keegan some years before when he was shipped out the following day to join the first team.
I'm sure if you saw any of the players out there they would engage with you as long as you aren't stupid.
Don't forget some players deal with nutters when they are out, too willing to blame them for every minutes unhappiness they experience in life.
Look at how many incidents Robbie had with fans and no wonder they want to be aloof.
It is a high pressure existance they live in, caused by the exposure they get. But it's always been like that just more so.
Players will always respond and react to the crowd when they hear their name being chanted, that will never change.
Tell me after last seasons Champs league that the players have no feeling for the supporters.

There were loads of boring games at Anfield in the glory days.
Struggling to break down 10 men behind the ball, and tactics have been negative before, then a formula comes along to counter that and then coaches spend hours working out how to stop that formation from taking their team apart. That's the evolution of the game.
Watch some highlights of games during the Hansen days and you'll be surprised at the slow pace and wonder how you found it so exciting, then watch Rhonaldinho perform magic against superfit opposition and that's demonstrating that skill increases to match the physical and negative aspects of the game.
As one poster said- Football is about going to the game with your mates having a few bevvies watching and then discussing with a few more bevvies and then eagerly awaiting the next match.
But I do sympathise with you on the Sky multi kick off times.
The best part of a Saturday was competing at the same time as all the other teams and seeing the impact of all the results.
Last Saturday - 3 prem games that's a joke.

[Life]

Harry - last season's champions league run just highlighted what we don't have for most games.
Passionate, up for it fans.
Loyalty rewarded by the club.
Players responding to the crowd and putting 100% in, and the crowd getting acknowledgment from the players.

If anything, the whole thing made me realise that most games are just plain crap, unenjoyable dross.

[hoonin]

Harry - last season's champions league run just highlighted what we don't have for most games.
Passionate, up for it fans.
Loyalty rewarded by the club.
Players responding to the crowd and putting 100% in, and the crowd getting acknowledgment from the players.

If anything, the whole thing made me realise that most games are just plain crap, unenjoyable dross.

Had to read that twice before I got what you meant. Thought you were questioning the CL games for a moment

[Jules01]

Good post - All this talk of falling attendances had me thinking of sundays match,which as far as i can recall was the highest Anfield attendance for 6 years.

[Mirra]

To sum it all up for me, I was offered a ticket for Istanbul. I could easily afford it as i had plenty of spare cash around the time. I didnt even need to think about it. No, i dont want it mate but thanks for the offer is what I said. I waited all my life for a chance to see Liverpool become Champions of Europe again, when it came I couldnt be bothered. Why should I is what i thought. Im sickened by footballers, the state of the game. All overpaid ponces who couldnt give a fuck about me or  you, im sick of wankers like Harry Kewell, a bloke going on the tele showing off his "crib" basically saying, Ha ha look what ive got and you havent, Im sick of being expected to worship these wankers, like Kewell, who to me, seem like people I wouldnt piss on if they were on fire if they didnt play for Liverpool and were famous, im sick of football clubs, the prices they charge, how fans are treat sometimes and all that. Im sick of it all really. I promised myself I wouldnt pay another penny to watch football again, I said that two seasons ago and apart from going to St James park to watch us play Newcastle (where me brother in law lent me a season ticket) I have stuck to it. I still want Liverpool to do well, of course I do. Not for the players, but for the fans who, like yourself Roper are still passionate about it all. I havent spent even half as much money and havent been to a quater as many games as you have mate. So I cant imagine how ti feels for you. Id love to see football fall flat on its face and come back to the people. I think it will soon. I hope it does.

Rant over

[Big Red One]

Spot on Roper.  There's loads feeling like it's not theirs these days -  to me it's been getting like it since the early 90s.

Scousers spin around wondering what the fuck has happened and often try for the easy answer of OOT.
Others blame Sky TV.
Others blame seats.
Others blame agents
Others blame the champions league.
Others blame the huge wages players earn these days.
Others blame greedy clubs wanting to fleece every last penny.

They're all to blame and loads more besides.  Like you said, I'm looking forward to the implosion.  I'm not a regular match goer - since my last season ticket year in 1990 I've probably been to around 10-15 games a year.  Sometimes it's been easy, I've had money, I've had time.  A fair few years it's been anything but because I had neither.  But creeping up on me more and more recently has been the realisation that when I finally get to my seat after 3 or 4 hours of shite traffic, £60 lamped out and a shitty drive home to come - they're not arsed.  They're not putting the effort in, and they don't give a flying one about me.  There's not really a two-way relationship going on here - and how can there be.  I pay 3/10000 of Stevie Gerrard's weekly wage.  Give it a whole year and I'm paying about 1/1000th of his weekly wage.  So all my effort, all my graft (and I'm not saying it's all without it's rewards - last season I had a blast at times - ditto 2001 and 2002 and a few years in the mid 90s) and it literally means that 1000 other people will have to do the same for a season to pay for one week's wages for Gerrard.
We're too far away from them. Their reality isn't ours.  To expect them to give a toss about our banners, our songs, our dreams - it's too much to expect.

The fans have changed as well - in their defence it's more than likely hugely influenced by some of what I've put above, and what Roper's post was on about.
The Carling Cup final nearly had me fighting with other Liverpool fans there were winding me up so much slagging the players off while the game was still there to be won.

Last season with the champions league run was my last hurrah (and what a last hurrah that was) - I'll hardly ever be going anymore.

I've been on a season ticket waiting list for ten years, struggle like a bastard trying to get tickets through the clubs various 'options' but still like a pilock will give every last penny when needed to sort something out.  At times I wonder why I bother, when some part timer is sat reading the Guardian in front of me while the game is on (I kid you not!) and looking over their shoulders every time I utter a 'fucking hell' or similar (forget sometimes that emotion is banned). Yet then there's nights like Olympiacos/Juve/Chelsea and of course Milan, when I genuinely feel a sense of emotion only second to the birth of my kids (just !:0) ).  And the I know, I'll always be there and they'll NEVER Walk Alone...............mad fool..............      

[4SamiSami4]

Great post Roper, made me think back to games in the late 70's and the pure excitement.  I don't think its just the players, the game, sky, etc.  I think its partly us, the fans, the average fan if you like, that is different now.

The "middle class people watchers" are often blamed but if half the day ticketers are there to crowd watch rather than take part, that's only about 7,000 "fans".  It doesn't explain the quietness all around Anfield.  I wonder what the average age of the fans at a match is now compared 10, 20 or 30 years ago.   It must be older now, and perhaps that's linked to the changing atmosphere.

Though its not just the oldies,  the youngsters now (our girl is 17) are so bloody sensible and more to the point just so bloody lazy.  They probably can't be arsed to sing and shout, and don't give a toss about "heroes" be it in footie, music or anything else.

And outside football its the same, think of anything you did 20 years or more ago.  For me its fishing.  The massive anticipation of a day out, making the best of (relatively) difficult situations, hundreds of people lined up on the banks at a big match all part of something special.  Nowdays its easy, an no one can be arsed.  Its all "gone".

Perhaps people have always yearned for good (tough) old days in all aspects of life, especially the really good bits?  Perhaps we have "all seen it all before" a little bit.

[lawrie]

Harry, a pretty dull but nontheless welcome beacon in the fog, thank you

[-HH-]

Id love to see football fall flat on its face and come back to the people. I think it will soon. I hope it does.

Hope you're right.

[harrytrow]

Harry - last season's champions league run just highlighted what we don't have for most games.
Passionate, up for it fans.
Loyalty rewarded by the club.
Players responding to the crowd and putting 100% in, and the crowd getting acknowledgment from the players.

If anything, the whole thing made me realise that most games are just plain crap, unenjoyable dross.

Oh come on. I remember the kop being quiet lots of games even back then and not all games were exciting end to end stuff.
I believe what we are hearing is 'the good old days', when it never rained in the summer and kids had respect etc etc.
Nothing has changed except different issues.(as someone has just said so I just noticed

[Hway]

My friend if we only had that passion times 44K we truely would be invincible!

I'm one of these OOT'nrs that so many have the hump with. I can't help that I decided to support Liverpool in 1974 at the age of 6. I don't live in Liverpool - I'm an Irishman  living in Yorkshire so I'm used to being not from wherever I am.

We're not all tossers just cos we don't have a scouse accent and an 'L' postcode-
- I hate sitting down.
- I don't bring a camera or wave one of those stupid fucking camera phones(sorry,  pet hate)
- I don't read the paper.
- Having driven that far I want the full 90 minutes.
- Sing yer song and wave yer arms about- remember its about passion.
- I go to away games when I can get a ticket.
- I don't have any mates who are into footie so I tend to go on my own and I really envy the groups of mates having a beer and going off to the game - don't give that up easily.
- I left home at 5.30 this morning to get in the queue for the Chelsea CL game. I was absolutely fucked until at 9.30 just before I got to the window a chap behind me told me he left home at 4am!! Day trippers my arse!

[AdamS]

Probably worth mentioning that I spoke to a fan of many a year who assures me that for himm having attended all the biggies, no night in history matches up to the Chelsea home game last year (CL). Now that is just an opinion, but it's worth reflecting on. Is there just too much footy now?

[bangorlad]

"I know its not just me, and id be interested to hear from long standing Reds on how they feel about it all….Id imagine the fellas from the 70’s and 80’s and further back are devastated with the way the game is now? It’s such a distant memory the days when the players played for you, and were on the whole pretty much just ordinary fellas. Yeah, the fans were cattled like shite, but that was all part of it….you got on with it and the group mentality and being with the ‘box of toys’ got you through it. All Reds together for one cause, no surrender, no ones left behind….a siege mentality. It’s all gone, dust, disappeared for ever."

Great read Roper. I started going to Anfield last 60s, and you're right, we were herded into grounds (home and away). You'd walk down Walton Breck road, there'd be massive queues outside the Kop, you'd push and shove for ages, no police control, eventually you'd get to a turnstile, and squeeze in.

But the feeling of getting into the ground was fantastic. Get a programme, leg it up the steps, over the top, and down the other side, trying to get to your usual spot - if not anywhere would do.

Then mid/late 70s it was more controlled with police and horses keeping an orderly queue. But again it was a laugh and you'd feel part of something really great and satisfying. The hours spent on the terraces (getting into the ground 1 to 2 hours before kick off, the game, and then at the end just standing there after the players had gone off the pitch, still taking in the great feeling of being somewhere special) - leave early; no chance, even if you wanted to (and I didn't know anyone who did) you couldn't get out anyway. Like Roper said "cattled like shite" - 26000 people wedged on the Kop.

Oh yes, and when the players came out to warm up about an hour or so before kick off, we'd chant their names, and they would wave to us.

I don't go to matches much these days (once or twice a season, tickets permitting of course), partly because I live some distance away and I am not in good physical health; but also, like many fans, there is much apathy with it all and some disillusionment. I was ever so proud of our achievements last season, and am hopeful for Rafa delivering future success. First and foremost, like Roper says, its the club thats important. Listening to YNWA on sunday brought it all back to me - mind you when we sung it way back then you only heard a few bars of Gerry Marsden, before the Kop took over.

Halycon days, and not just because of our success. It was a privilige to stand on the Kop, and yes we did have our "off" days, but generally the atmosphere was fantastic, and we were the 12th man (at many matches).

[blert596]

Cracking post Roper.

But amidst all the crap that is football today, there are still those moments when putting up with all the shite, make me happy and proud to be a red.

Theres a line from "Leave right now" by Will Young (sad I know) that says "But if I miss the highs, at least I'm spared the lows" and its something I've related to before (not just footy either).  Paying your money/time to watch/worship these so called superstars has made me say loads of times that I might just sack going.

But at the end of the day, for all the one wayness, of our love of the club, for all the lows (and I dont mean results/performances), I dont think I'll give it up because of the highs. There's just something that special about it.

To tell the truth, I dont really enjoy going the match anymore that much. Its just a habit now. Its not the same, never will be. Fuck, I dont think Ive spoken more than a couple of words to some fuckers around me in the ground the majority of games. Had a good bevvy before, and a good bevvy and a debate afterwards. But inside? Even on Sunday, I thought we were pretty fuckin poor considerin who we were playin.  Row in front of me about 5 people just talked all the way through YNWA. Another lot just did the usual clappin shite half way through it. Dont know if I really want to be associated with a lot of our lot anymore. Fed up lookin like a bell singin meself.

Who's to blame? SKY? Club? Fans? Money?   All of them have played their part in taking away my enjoyment. Give it up though? I'd love to say I will, love to be able to say ah fuck it.

But those highs, just keep me coming back. Like a sad twat.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Oh come on. I remember the kop being quiet lots of games even back then and not all games were exciting end to end stuff.
I believe what we are hearing is 'the good old days', when it never rained in the summer and kids had respect etc etc.
Nothing has changed except different issues.(as someone has just said so I just noticed

Are ya, I am generally hearing keep Anfield scouse and as an OOT I say bollocks to that.

I will watch who I like, say what I like and sing what I like. If you dont like it, frankly, could care less.

This is what amazes me about so many at Anfield. They all seem to notice what is going on around them - who is singing, who is reading a paper, who is going for a piss.

I see nothing other than the pitch. Football for me, has always been a personal thing. My own little world. Dont get me wrong I take the missus, but I dont see her except when we score and I throw her in the air and she gets the half time teas just in case something happens, you never know.

Personally think many on here should just appreciate the game and that happens on the pitch not the row to your left.

[Nerik]

OOTers. I am one of them. Also from out of the country. Have supported Liverpool for close to 25yrs, been to watch them 5 times (5th time in Istanbul) and have spent a lot of time and money on the Reds. I do not think that I am the type of OOTer that has ruined the game. I was there before the internet. I would follow LFC on BBC radio on a Saturday and then watch the game highlights on Big League Soccer. I'd buy Match magazine to read match reviews and player interviews.

There are OOTers and OOTers. In the same way as all Scouse fans are not the same type of fan.

[horne]

crackin thread....amazingly good poem......still ....weve gotta move with the times and go with the flow.....and remember how it used to be and bring it back....sky and the rest cant stop us(istanbul) from believing ,singing ,banners as funny as fuck and ingenious....but most of all....have a fuckin laugh cos were scousers and we owe it to all thats been before us to keep it going and pass it on to the next generation as those before us did to us.
let every other club slide down the slippery slope...we're not!

[Hij]

Hmm, thats left me feeling rather depressed this thread

[Grwler]

what a great thread.

Its a serious issue, and something that needs to be addressed. I think a large portion is due to the 'new' fans.  Fans from the last 20 years have stood together, and sat together.  Now, a fan who wants to sing, and get involved, is sat next to a man who brings his flask and blanket to the game, and gets upset, if anyone talks (seriously happened).  so you meet up before the game, go to your seat, and try and meet up afterwards.  Just not the same.

Having seating blocks would make more sense.  put the families and the accountants in an area, put the fans that want to sing together etc.

As for those that leave early, I just don't get it!! I mean, why pay hundreds of pounds to get to turkey and then leave at half time.  what a pillock.  I personally am in my seat/pub/home wherever, 15 minutes before kick off.  and definitely will not budge until after full time.  Not even for a leak at half time. those from the kop will remember where the loos were in the standing days.

my memory of the kop was getting beaten up and repeatedly called Paki unfortunately.  however, the games were not always exciting, but no one cared.  it was cheap to get in, you were with your mates, and had a great laugh.  It was like attending a concert, except you got to do it every week!!

It needs drastic action, like 50% globally of everything football related.  Tickets, sponsorship, wages, merchandise etc.  Very drastic, and the logistics would be a nightmare, but it cannot be sustained on what is there currently.

the footy has always had its boring moments, and certain games are always quiet, but generally, the premier league is boring now.  by that, does anyone expect the top 4 to NOT be chelsea, mancs, arse and us?

its sounds crazy, but maybe having the 'top 4' play in a european league, and have a second local club that plays in the actual league here.  at least then it would be more youngsters, and the moneymen will have what they want anyway.

I think we will be unlucky too.  Sky came around a decade too late for us, and football will die just as we are about to rule again.

As for blaming chelsea, thats just lazy.  we never complained when we dominated, and no one complained in the 90's.  at the end of the day, its 11v11 on the pitch.

Its where the game started, and where it can be won back

Maybe points bonus for scoring x goals?bonus points for beating teams x points higher in the league than you? less points for beating a team x points BELOW you? so if Wigan beat chelsea, they get 4 points, but if chelsea beat wigan they get 2points?

[Bob Sacamano]

"Everyone always talks about the good ole days...that's a crock. There's no such thing. Today is a good day."

Those were the words of Johnny Peskey, a legendary Boston Red Sox baseball player from the 1940's and 50's. That sums up my sentiments perfectly. Stop the moaning, the groaning and the complaining. If you don't like the game, then stop buying tickets, stop watching on tv, stop buying jerseys, go find something else to do and leave the rest of us be so we can watch the game in peace. How can you call yourself a fan and hope for the game to "fall flat on its face." Could you hope for some financial adjustments to level the playing field...sure...but to hope for the game to be ruined??? You know why the players make the big bucks? Cause you invest so much money into watching the sport..thats why. Enough of the "Gerrard makes 10 billions more than me" routine. Of course he does. How many people would pay to see you work in a factory? And why the selfishness? Who said its your game? Just because the sport isnt the way you want it doesnt mean its ruined beyond repair. Obviously enough people like the product as it continues to make incredible profits. This thread sickens me, and the fact that so many people agreed with your post is shocking. The "good ole days" are nonsense. Things change, the world evolves, stop crying about it, and appreciate what you have got.

[4pool]

Great read lads..

I was 47 the first time I actually got to Anfield for a match. Long story made short I actually came over with my Mum , who has never been to Anfield and from Kirkdale, got us two tickets to the Newcastle match..which was cancelled due to the Princess Di tragedy. And then paid again for the long trip over for a long weekend just to see my first match, arrive thursday, return Monday from London to the USA.

I still experienced the same emotion as Roper for the first visit. Can't say I sang YWNA as the tears were rolling, so who knows how loud I was,  as I FINALLY got to be involved, albeit from the Anny Road end.

I've been able to get to 6 home and 1 away match. Every last one was special. None of them seemed poor matches to me. It was the experience, the feeling of being with like minded people. And those who couldn't care or have been a 1,000 times and want to moan..to bad..i'm there to enjoy and support. I know some of the songs but not all. And i'll chip in when they get going..

I envy those who get to go frequently. Maybe because some do get to so many matches to them they've become blase' about it all.

But it's still about passing down the traditions because if supporters don't do it.....who will? And then who do you blame?

It's up to supporters to change things if that is the problem. Otherwise it will all be gone...

[TomE]

Roper - thats one of the best pieces i've read in a long long time. I ope you don't mind, i've put it up onto RAOTL.

Superb, lad and bring home some of the feelings i;ve had since i was in Istanbul. I've moved to aus since for a few months, and I've not missed the game like i thought iwould. Just my mates. Am i loosing my religon?

[raemarc]

DAMN!!! To think that I am still saving for that trip to Anfield from Kuala Lumpur Malaysia. Why bother? Might as well upgrade my car.

[harrytrow]

Are ya, I am generally hearing keep Anfield scouse and as an OOT I say bollocks to that.

I will watch who I like, say what I like and sing what I like. If you dont like it, frankly, could care less.

This is what amazes me about so many at Anfield. They all seem to notice what is going on around them - who is singing, who is reading a paper, who is going for a piss.

I see nothing other than the pitch. Football for me, has always been a personal thing. My own little world. Dont get me wrong I take the missus, but I dont see her except when we score and I throw her in the air and she gets the half time teas just in case something happens, you never know.

Personally think many on here should just appreciate the game and that happens on the pitch not the row to your left.

I'm trying to work out why my post has irritated/annoyed you.
Never mentioned out of towners people reading the paper or any of the other things that have annoyed you.
I also tune into the game, and see no difference in the game today re tactics, players attitudes and all I said was it was no different to 1960 when I saw my first game. It's all a question of rose tinted glasses.

[Johnnyboy1973]

I'm trying to work out why my post has irritated/annoyed you.
Never mentioned out of towners people reading the paper or any of the other things that have annoyed you.
I also tune into the game, and see no difference in the game today re tactics, players attitudes and all I said was it was no different to 1960 when I saw my first game. It's all a question of rose tinted glasses.

Chill Harry - your post did not annoy me and my reply was not directed at you per se.

It was just that you said, all I am hearing is the good old days and my reply to you was all I am hearing is etc.. etc..

To be honest, thought your post brought some reality back to the post.

One thing that strikes me having read more depression elsewhere is these good ole days seem to hark back to when the fans in question were in their teenage years and really, looking back with nostalgia everything looked better then not just a trip to Anfield.

[diggers suit]

agree with a lot of that and also that the domination of the league by a few teams is killing the game.  Chelsea apart as they are financed by a bottomless pit, the money needs to be distributed more evenly - we just  need to look at Scotland to see the problems that come with a non competitive league.

you can actually look at Everton for a good example of this - 20 years ago they were able to assemble a fantastic side and win the league.  what chances of this now?  absolutely zero.  as much as it pains me to say it, Everton are a big club and if the absolute limit of their ambition is now to finish 4th (at best!) then football's in a bad state.  let's face it, we're miles behind as well, and don't realistically look like winning the title this year or any year soon either (altho Rafa could work miracles yet).

I totally agree with how the players have lost all touch with reality.  Our own Stevie G is a good example - what exactly apart from money would he gain going to Chelsea?  he's won everything apart from the League with Liverpool, he's an established England player, his stock is already high around Europe and the rest of the world.....he's supposed to be a Liverpool fan and even *his* head is turned.

sad days indeed, and unless something is done things will only get worse.  we may need to look at the US and how they've capped the wage bill or something similar to control how a small number of teams just hoover up all the best players

[el-ahmer]

A very interesting article that covers so much ground making it difficult to comment on. As an oot, I probably have less to complain about as most of the games I see are on TV, but I do agree with much of what has been covered. Especially the points on the know it all fans that seem to think they have the right to say what they like without any responsibility for it and those who have a go at them for talking drivel are then accused of bulling. Political correctness, money, TV, the internet and many other factors have changed our world and in many ways for the worse though no one is likely to want to revert to the past. So I suppose we must find a new way forward as fans of a great institution where we could reclaim the passion we seem to have lost while still living in the modern world. Someone suggested retiring the no 12 shirt as the one for the fans, and thought it’s just s superficial gesture, it could be the type of thing for the fans to reconnect with the lads and the institution itself. The club must also do more to educate the players in what is expected from them though that would again be more of what is going on right now anyway, as spin doctors have entered all aspects of life. I suppose time will tell as to how things will turn in the future, but I feel that we the fans can still make a difference by not falling into the trap of being run of the mill fans that can be found at other clubs. We can educate our fellow fans even if they are totally deluded and talking utter shit we can still take responsibility and try to move them closer to the realms of reality. A very good read that must have taken a heap of soul searching, thank you for sharing.

[WOOLTONIAN]

God only knows how the kids younger than us must feel. I am fully aware that to the players, walking out of the ground and seeing hundred of kids is nothing new. It's week in, week out for them, and it would be hard to sign for them all [and obviously harder once word got out to say they did]. But the odd one or two wouldn’t go a miss, and just a smile and the words "Thanks" every so often?

Some people will probably say "well they can’t please everyone" - and that is a fair point. But I would hope that those players know how much 2 seconds of their time with one kid means to that kid and those who were there. It's hope, it’s even inspiring. Yet, they don’t seem to care.

Andy
your sentiments pretty much echos what my Dad said in the 80's when he decided to call it a day.
He was of the opinion that players were losing touch with the fan base back then.
I, in my naivity totally disagreed and continued to go.
He was from the Liddell era and I would ask Harry to confirm or deny the following.
Liddell arrived at Anfield at 1.45pm by the time he had finished signing autographs, he arrived in the dressing room at 2.40 and had the mickey taken out of him by the other players.
After the game he was also outside the ground and continued singing autographs until the last fan had left content.
I dont think it's too much to say, no player would do similar today.
However I understand Harry's reflection that not every game in era's past was a classic and anyone who refers to the NINE 0-0's in 1970/71, may understand that.
0-0's have a funny effect on match going fans and often draw the "Non-tryers" comment.
We absolutely revel in 3-0 victories and we even have a masochistic side that revels in defeat.
But a draw always leaves us hollow.

Yes. there are changes in the game and they are not all for the better.
But I am beginning to think that most of the changes are within ourselves.
When we were young the money used to burn a hole in our pocket.
Now we're older, we've started grading games by value for money.
A 3-0 win is money well spent.
A hard fought 2-3 defeat teaches us humility.
A 0-0 draw is a total waste of hard earned cash (not always true)

I think when above starts to kick in, it's time for the pipe and slippers.
Worse is the emotionless reaction to a defeat or a 0-0 bore draw.
"Ah well never mind"
When it doesn't really hurt, it's time to call it a day.
To be brutally frank, I'm getting that way now.
When comments like, "It's not the end of the world" started to creep in to my vocab, I realised my time had come.

The Armchair - beer in the fridge - fag when I like - swear when I want - tv games, are beginning to look very attractive.
And if that means I am not allowed an opinion on how we're playing, so be it.
I prefer to write historical posts anyway.

Only advise I could offer is,
Think of the last decade, as the time spent down amongst the dead men (Div 2) and look forward to what we received later for our loyalty.
As to the current crop of players, there will NEVER be another Liddell, he was a total one off.
And if you ever read MY Soccer Story, by Billy Liddell, I think you will come to terms with that.

[Jim Price]

Would have to echo much of what Roper has written.

Despite the glorious run in the European Cup last year, I felt like I suffered some serious body blows watching the side last year. I was seething with the lack of effort being put in, Southampton away, City away, Palace away. Games we needed to win to climb above Everton (Everton for fucks sake), the players as a group weren't arsed. Just left my stomach in knots, and after that just an empty feeling.

As for Anfield these days, I think it was summed up when Scholes, who let's not forget is a ginger snide who plays for our most hated rivals, went to take a corner on Sunday, people are scrambling to take a picture of the prick. Where did it all go wrong eh?

[bubs]

stop complaining. stop whining. just try to enjoy the game.

[Tarpaulin]

Just an additional question/point.....

Do you think the fact that season tickets have such a long waiting list has a bearing? Bear with me on this one....

As someone said earlier, the fan basde on the whole seems older now than ever before. Mainly cos kids are priced out and not given an opportunity but also because the fellas who;ve have seasies for 20 years plus or whatever, are scraed to give em up cos they will probably struggle get them back.

I know for a fact that the fellas just infront of me come the game as a matter of chore sometimes, even just as routine...they sit for 90 mins and giggle and talk and miss most of the match. They are waiting for those one or maybe two magical nights a season that make it all seem worthwhile.

Maybe if you could spew yer ticket and then decide another year to get it back, loads of these people whove fallen out of love would leave and make way for those who really wanna be there?

Just a thought.

Also, someone above mentioned visiting Anfield for the 1st time and having to save to do it. I wonder how many find it a total let down when they finally get here? Compared to when i 1st went.

Mad innit? I see them every week and think "will you ever come back?"

[4pool]

Roper: I wasn't dissapointed with my first visit and we drew 2-2. I've been back. Last time was the 1-1 end of the season match with Newcastle. Hopefully will get back again after the New Year. My ticket costs about 500-600 quid or more counting travel and accomodations and staying in England for a bit. But I could save the money and stay at home and watch the match on tv.

--------------

As for players not signing autographs....wonder if the FA and teams would go for something like what golf does. They have a set area for player to sign autographs. Why not before or after training the players go to a "secured" area where they can sign things?

Make that part of their contract...

I guess where some players have had their heads twisted is the e-bay effect where others make money off their signature. Which is a shame. Because there always that true little lad who would beam for days if he got an autograph...
---------------------------------

Also wonder if the club wouldn't have a dvd package of what it means to be a Liverpool player and what it means to supporters available for the newcommers to the team to watch. Have them watch Shanks, Sir Bob, Joe, Kenny, etc....Make it mandatory for any new signing. And fine any player a weeks wages for not touching the TIA sign....

[Olly]

Cracking post Andy, and something that I whole-heartedly agree with. It saddens me that I'm not the only one who thinks have got to this stage, and although I've only scanned the responses I fully agree with someone's reply that they can't wait for the whole football bubble to burst. I just want my game back.

We've know for a long long time that football was getting greedy. Agents are everywhere, snapping up kids when they're 16 in the hope they make it to the big time so that they can retire with a villa in Spain.

This Nigerian 18 year old that signed to go to the Mancs but then changed his mind after a no doubt sneaky word in his ear from Slimeball Kenyon (if ever there was a man who sums up exactly where football has gone wrong then this is it).

Rio Ferdinand holding out successfully for a £100k a WEEK.

Ashley Cole trying to sue the football authorities for not letting him try and break his contract.

Steve McLaren telling Boro fans that they SHOULD be paying money to watch his side play a game in midweek against a side no-one has ever heard of.

Michael Howard stating in the general election campaign that he is a red.

10's of footballers being featured in the Times' 100 Rich List.

Just today, a feature on the news about Glasgow Rangers building a state of the art mega Casino, with hotel complex, bars, and a sports pitch on the fucking roof!

Another group / committee / talking shop set up by the authorities to tackle footballs problems. Today the FA and Premier League have announce they will be organising an extraordinary meeting to try and fathom out why attendances are down. For fucks sake! Ask any geniune match going fan you bunch of numpties.

The list could go on and on.

In what other sport do officials get treated with such contempt? Does the governing body have such little power? Do the players care so little about the fans who pay them?

I remember in Bucharest 3 years ago. It was lashing down with rain, properly bucketing it down. The 800 of us there were soaked to the skin. We'd spent a load of money getting there, and yes although we'd had a cracking time, the only real reason we were there was to support our team. The final whistle blows, and the whole team sprint off the pitch without a seconds thought. At the last minute Gerrard runs over screams at them and they all trudge back out to the half way line to give us a little clap. Disgrace. And this happens every game.

It's getting to the point now where instead of wandering into Anfield in awe (I'll always remember the first time I walked up the steps and saw the almost neon-like green pitch) I almost start wondering what I'm doing there. It has become routine. Every so often a night like Chelsea last season comes along and you think to yourself "that's it! That's why I do this". And don't get me wrong - I love it. But I'm beginning to find it hard to justify the expense now.

Getting 3 tickets for the Chelsea game next Wednesday - £104! What?!!! Away games are becoming a joke. There are very few good away games left. Euro aways are always the highlight of my season, and that saddens me because it used to be going to Anfield every other week. Now wander round the place before the game, and look around me during the game, and look at the billionaires on the pitch and I can't get that special feeling anymore. I used to read everything I could about football, and listen to every interview and watch every programme. I find myself at times now actively avoiding this. That's not right.

And I want to laugh at it all, and something my mate said to me this morning did make me laugh. But it's not funny - it's sad.

"I’m looking forward to a few pints with me mates but I’m especially looking forward to a dull game, sitting down, paying 43 quid for me ticket, another midday kick off, he’sgay having his game of the season, ‘who rr ya..who rr ya’, ‘you’re not singing anymore’,  ‘..you bring me sunshine – sorry I mean he drinks sangria..’, gerrard getting man of the match for one pass and listening to a load of numpties.

Look out for me in my new home shirt with ‘Istanbul 05 I was there’ printed in large lettering on the back.

In fact, forget all that I’ll watch it on the telly."

[harrytrow]

Chill Harry - your post did not annoy me and my reply was not directed at you per se.

It was just that you said, all I am hearing is the good old days and my reply to you was all I am hearing is etc.. etc..

To be honest, thought your post brought some reality back to the post.

One thing that strikes me having read more depression elsewhere is these good ole days seem to hark back to when the fans in question were in their teenage years and really, looking back with nostalgia everything looked better then not just a trip to Anfield.

Yeah sorry mate.
Looking back though it was a great journey at the time. Coming up from the second, being on the train in the guards van to go to blackburn with a new beatles hit being released, I think it was she loves you or I wanna hold your hand, and the whole train were singin it as well as the footie songs, winning the league and then Bolton in the cup the next season and walking back to town with the whole road marching singing HP baked beans as the advert did. and then the decline after the next league championship - Watford. The rebuilding. Shanks resigning. Paisley the master manager then Kenny Oh god no wondewr it all seemed so much better those days.
I can't remember anything bad but it was there

[oldswanexile]

I agree with most of what you say, but it's the bit about the Liverworld daytrippers that got me. As my tag name suggests, I'm an Old Swan exile. I used to love being simply able to walk to the game - now (thanks to my job) I live and work in Grimsby - and it has to be a day trip mate (or a 5hour round trip minimum). I spend hours online or on the phone getting my tickets. Not to mention the money I spend and the grief I get from the girlfriend!
However, I never pass up the chance to go and I don't agree that it's getting boring. To knock back an opportunity to sit in the finest ground in the land would be madness. This is just the opinion of one guy but matchdays are special to me, regardless of where, when and what time the kickoff is - from that first match pint in the King Harry (having parked up) to the struggle back up the East Lancs listening to the post-match analysis (and shouting back at the radio!).
There's not a lot we can all do about ticket prices. And boycotting the match (as some folk up the road have tried) is sheer stupidity. Personally the thought of some glory-boy going instead of me makes me feel quite ill.

[Life]

Just an additional question/point.....

Do you think the fact that season tickets have such a long waiting list has a bearing?

Yes, we need new blood.
Which brings us back onto ticket prices for kids...for my pocket money at the time (a quid or so) I could get the 320 to the match and back (16p "anywhere in Merseyside" scratch card - superb), get in the Kop at the kids turnstiles (50p I think when I started) and get a bag of chips and gravy after the match (probably about 30p).
I'm not sure how much it is for a kid to get in these days - £15 or so.  Even allowing for inflation over the last 20 years, that's got to be a shit-load more than the average kid gets in pocket money.

[WOOLTONIAN]

I agree with most of what you say, but it's the bit about the Liverworld daytrippers that got me. As my tag name suggests, I'm an Old Swan exile. I used to love being simply able to walk to the game - now (thanks to my job) I live and work in Grimsby - and it has to be a day trip mate (or a 5hour round trip minimum). I spend hours online or on the phone getting my tickets. Not to mention the money I spend and the grief I get from the girlfriend!
However, I never pass up the chance to go and I don't agree that it's getting boring. To knock back an opportunity to sit in the finest ground in the land would be madness. This is just the opinion of one guy but matchdays are special to me, regardless of where, when and what time the kickoff is - from that first match pint in the King Harry (having parked up) to the struggle back up the East Lancs listening to the post-match analysis (and shouting back at the radio!).
There's not a lot we can all do about ticket prices. And boycotting the match (as some folk up the road have tried) is sheer stupidity. Personally the thought of some glory-boy going instead of me makes me feel quite ill.

Mate
I know Andy and I dont think that was aimed at exiles like you
At least I hope not.
I moved away for work 7 years ago
As did a lot of others

I think its aimed at the one timers, so they can say
been there, seen that, wore the replica kit

[ScouserTommy37]

Excellent post. I spent 8 hours pressing redial yesterday and couldnt get a ticket. It's a lottery now if you don't have a a season ticket. It was easier to get a semi final ticket for the Champions league last season!

I hate glory hunters. No loyalty shown to fans as were replacable now. I wish I could go support a team nearby "not Everton" as I would always get to the games but only one team has my heart.