Topic: Liverpool's Summer Transfer Activity Explained

[Rushback]

Lovely piece Paul, with you all the way

[Paul Tomkins]

Funny read, just a few mistakes though, a) zidane never won the cl with juve(arrived in 1996/7) and won it with real, so real got his best years, plus he cost closer to 40m pounds, not 46.

b)Luis Garcia was promoted from Barca's reserves in 2002(he was sold to atletico and bought back again as well), and when Liverpool signed him he had played 32 games for Barca's first team in La Liga and the Uefa cup, so hardly a reserve team player as is often misrepresented in the UK tabloids.

c)when looking at the value of players, it makes no sense to basket together different players and using an average of their overall prices as a determinent of their value, two free transfers will never make an overpriced flop look any better, it seems remarkably abstract to begin doing this, and more than a little pointless.

d) Kevin Phillips has been in the premiership for something like 7 consecutive seasons now, and always at struggling clubs and twice getting 30 goals in a season. Calling him as a 1 season wonder is really without reference to any facts whatsoever, i would expect more from someone purporting himself to be a footballing authority of any sort.
Still, funny read though

Oh here we go. Sorry, but yours is the kind of post which really pisses me off, as it is indeed a Lazy post.


A) Yes, Zidane won the CL with Real Madrid, but does that mean Real had his best years? Maybe. Maybe not. But I think most people feel he was at his best in the late 90s, when at Juve. You may disagree. That's your opinion. He won two league titles at Juve, plus the World Cup and European Champions with France during that time, hence why many feel they were his "best" years.

His individual awards, bar one, were from his Juve days too. (3 x FIFA World Player of the Year 1998, 2000, 2003;
1 x World Soccer Player of the Year 1998;   1 x European Player of the Year 1998)

Also, I looked up his transfer - the value quoted in several sources was £46m (I checked various sources, here is one: http://www.answers.com/topic/zinedine-zidane). If you know better, all well and good.


B) Luis Garcia was a "reserve" - doesn't mean he only played for the reserves, but he was not a definitive "first choice" player. Igor Biscan played 35 games for Liverpool last season - more than Luis G in the season you mention at Barca. Was Biscan a reserve? Of course he was!


C) Sorry, but disagree with you here. Please read my post again, and this time take a little time to digest it. My point was that if Rafa has a set budget for players (six, say), and gets those players within the budget, why quibble over who cost this and who cost that?

I'm looking at the bigger picture: all players signed within a set budget. If Rafa only has £8m to spend on six players, paying £8m on one would be silly. But that's not the case.


And finally

D) - which proves you really were not paying attention. I was quoting *other people* mentioning Kevin Phillips. I even went so far as to express my surprise at him being called a 'one season wonder', as it's not true. So stop picking holes in my argument when you haven't even read the bloody piece properly!


And please, I do not consider myself an authority on the game. I write stuff, and leave it up to others to decide its worth or relevance, and that applies to my book as well as my postings on internet fora.

[Paul Tomkins]

What's with this 2-4 pound discount for "the book"bought online i bought mine last week form www.paultomkins....and guess what....correcty mondo...no discount.........typical.......damn good read though......YNWA

Thanks for buying the book. However, like anything, the price can be lowered, or deals be done with certain websites or outlets.

This deal is in conjuction with ynwa.tv

 

[Jason_King]

Paul- You missed promising players with an impressive scrapbook 

[Woodbury]

I personally like "He's not good enough to be part of a championship winning side."

[Paul Tomkins]

I personally like "He's not good enough to be part of a championship winning side."

Bollocks! Forgot that one! I've covered it before, but would have fitted in well here...   

Paul- You missed promising players with an impressive scrapbook 

Is that a reference to *my* legendary scrapbook?! 

[Jason_King]

Sorry legendary, I played it down with "impressive" lol

[Paul Tomkins]

Sorry legendary, I played it down with "impressive" lol

Ah, but those were the old days.

It is now the stuff of legend 

[Jason_King]

you really should put it on here Paul, its wasted gathering dust....

[montse]

C) Sorry, but disagree with you here. Please read my post again, and this time take a little time to digest it. My point was that if Rafa has a set budget for players (six, say), and gets those players within the budget, why quibble over who cost this and who cost that?

I'm looking at the bigger picture: all players signed within a set budget. If Rafa only has £8m to spend on six players, paying £8m on one would be silly. But that's not the case.

I do enjoy reading your articles.  Have to agree with Laz-e-boy just on this point.  I do understand that getting your targets on budget is a great achievement in itself, and probably very difficult due the uncertainties in the transfer market.  Why quibble over getting ripped off on a single player?  Well all the hard work in obtaining cheaper players to hit your target has been undone.  All savings go back into the club, so I am sure that rafa does quibble over the price of each signing.

Anyway, I personally find it hard to come up with better crouch-like alternatives for £6-8mill, assuming that RB wants this type of player. 

[naken]

F**king brilliant post.....

....and spot on.

[mercury]

Is that a reference to *my* legendary scrapbook?! 

Jason, now you've done it.  We'll hear (or see) no end of it...again!   

[Jason_King]

Sideburns, tight shorts, local sponsors on shirts, two left feet

Class 

[Paul Tomkins]

All savings go back into the club, so I am sure that rafa does quibble over the price of each signing.

Of course - but it's *his* business.

As I said, Crouch is worth £8m if Rafa thinks he is. Of course we want players as cheaply as possible, and yes, all savings help. And yes, Rafa quibbles - and rightly so. But as Rafa knows who he wants, and his total budget, he is the only one in a position to judge.

I never said £8m for Crouch was being ripped off, but I never want to see us taken for a ride. If Rafa thinks he's being ripped off, he won't pay it. My point was with people saying Crouch is worth no more than £2m.

Ultimately the value of a player is not set in stone. It depends on many factors: how much he means to the selling club, how much he is needed by the buying club, length of contract, contract clauses, and so on. And that's my point: that there is no exact science to this.

[Jason_King]

I have to hold my hands up and say I cant see him being worth 7-8m. Granted I havent seen a lot of him, but I suppose Rafa sees him fitting in with his plans.

Bear in mind that if Crouch fails he will be Rafa's "Diouf"

[armchair manager]

Bear in mind that if Crouch fails he will be Rafa's "Diouf"

this is just getting out of hand.

god help the lad when he has a few poor games.

[SkyBlueRed]

I actually disagree with the tone of the piece - if you're suggesting that these arguments are wrong or invalid (judging by your conclusion).  By definition, "speculation" is guesswork, purely because it is made before events unfold and not in retrospect.

I would argue that for each occurence where a player's reality turns out to be different to the expectations of him at the point of signing him - whether it be the disappointment of Kewell, the new Zidane or the Serial Killer, or unexpected jackpots such as Dalgish, Hyypia or Gary Mac - there is at least one occurence where the reality does conform to the expectation.

Heskey - 'not a true goalscorer', and so it proved, Riise - we got the solid player we expected.

You own point that all players are individual cases means that there is a certain random element to how they will perform at a new club. They are all risks to some extent.  We speculate on how we think players would turn out in a red shirt.  Some of us think Crouch would be a waste of oxygen (though admittedly, there is less of it up where he is), some of us think that he would provide a useful alternative option in attack in certain situations.  Time will tell which camp are right.  He could turn out to be a flop à la Heskey, he could turn out to be a star à la Carragher.  By definition, one camp will be proved right, and one wrong.

But next time, the wrong 'uns will get it right, and vice versa.

Must say I agree with some points here, not to say I disagree with all of Pauls post. The whole point of this forum is discussion, to me that post effectively says who are we to weigh up the pro's and cons of a signing? Isnt that just what this forum is here for? Maybe im getting the wrong end of the stick, im hot, sweaty and pissed off.

I also ask by what should we judge a players ability to be a success at Liverpool Football Club? If we havent previously seen him at the club (and even if we have (Owen) judging by your post we cant assume he will be a success / failure based on his past here) then how can we "debate" whether or not in our opinion he will be a good signing? I just think the post is a bit of a discussion killer criticising the basic factors that a scout, a manger and even a know nothing forum member like myself will use when making our own summation about a player.

[Laz-e-Boy]

Sorry, didnt know we werent allowed to disagree on a PUBLIC FORUM. Firstly trinkets versus silverware, hmmm, well when zidane said himself when he left juventus that he only wanted one trophy in club football i didnt realise he was talking about the world player of the year award. i, and the rest of the world, thought he was talking about the champions league. so glad that your here to enlighten us on all things football. Apart from the 1997 season and 1998 season, when he won the league and got to the champions league final first as a bit part player in his first season in 1997, and with a slightly higher profile in the 1998 season, his time with juventus was not a succesful one. If you actually watched a little seria a over the last few years you would know this. if you just read a little profile of a player on some crappy web site, then this will all be new to you, im talking to you here, paul. the 1999 season ended poorly, with no champions league final for the first time in 4 seasons, and ac milan won the leuge. the 2000 and 2001 seasons were no better, with no league titles and two humiliating seasons in europe. in the summer of 2001 real came a-caling and zidane jumped at the chance. he instantly won his holy grail of the champions league with the one of the greatest goals of all time, and world player of the year award. in the next season he won the spansih league. 2003 2004 have seen two barren years, but with the freedom zidane has been given since casting off the shackles of the overly stuffy and exesively methodical italian league, he has over the past few years been able to express himself in footballing terms in a truly attacking and flair team. (I implore anyone who disagrees with me to give me one good reason why they think that zidane was better when playing in the overly defensive italian league than playing for the most carefree attacking team in the world)
Secondly it is great that you can read. im very proud of you. it really impresses me. however rather than looking at second hand and amateur written on line resources, it might perhaps be worth your while observing actual events at the time they unfurl and then endevour to remember said details. i refer of course to your reproduction of so called 'facts' which you refer to. first of all zidane cost 41 m pounds then 4m pounds in agents fees and other non player related payments, so his actual value was 41m pounds, or as i said closer to 40m than the number you quoted. furthermore, rather than talking about the spanish league teams and their players, i implore you to please WATCH A GAME FROM THE SPANISH LEAGUE. if you were to pay any attention to it, as i and many others do, you would have heard a little of luis garcia over the past couple of seasons, and you would have seen him more than a few times playing for barca, and before that you would have heard of him when he was instrumental in getting little tenerife promoted in 2000/1. But, i digress. These are details for those whose boundaries do not begin and end with the english league.

your point c still bears no resemblence to a logical argument and is as much nonsensical as it was in your original post. one players cost has no bearing on how much a completely different player should have cost the club, and if you are advocating wasting money simply because the club has already made savings in other areas then your more a fool than i thought you to be.

-'I'm looking at the bigger picture: '

whatever, mate, that is the saddest attempt to put your point accross i ever heard, just make your point, telling us how great you are isnt going to get your point across.

Lastly, why the hell would you put kevin phillips in that bracket of other peoples definitions of one hit wonders and then claim that you dont consider him to be in that bracket? i know you made some dispensation for the name of kevin philips but it still shows that you give some credence to that arguement, however i will accept that werent calling him directly a 'one season wonder' so, point detracted, for what it is worth

Please, mate, if your gonna call a topic 'liverpools transfer activity explained' it might help if you knew anything about players who, er, dont actually play  for liverpool. if you only know about liverpool players, and fuck all about non liverpool players, how are you supposed to explain tranfser activity?

[Paul Tomkins]

I also ask by what should we judge a players ability to be a success at Liverpool Football Club? If we havent previously seen him at the club (and even if we have (Owen) judging by your post we cant assume he will be a success / failure based on his past here) then how can we "debate" whether or not in our opinion he will be a good signing?

Of course you use it to judge players. But it shouldn't be 100% definitive. That's my point. Because Crouch was shit at Villa doesn't mean he'll be shit at Liverpool; because he was good at Soton doesn't mean he'll be good at Liverpool. But either is a possibility - not just the likelihood that he'll "be shit".

I guess all I am speaking out against are people with their minds set in a fixed judgment. I'd just like to see some open-mindedness...

[hooded claw]

Of course you use it to judge players. But it shouldn't be 100% definitive. That's my point. Because Crouch was shit at Villa doesn't mean he'll be shit at Liverpool; because he was good at Soton doesn't mean he'll be good at Liverpool. But either is a possibility - not just the likelihood that he'll "be shit".

Indeed.
Wasn't it Jamie Redknapp who greeted Henchoz on his first day with, 'I thought you were mingin' at Blackburn'?
Time will tell.

[Laz-e-Boy]

I guess all I am speaking out against are people with their minds set in a fixed judgment. I'd just like to see some open-mindedness...

oh my god, first he is the only one to get the bigger picture and now everyone else is closed mind. Just for disagreeing with what this guy has to say. i am glad you operate such a free thinking forum, and im sure your not the type to think that just beacause someone disagrees with you, they must be somehow inferior to your great intellect, or narrow minded, or unable to grasp this 'bigger picture' that only your genious can comprehend.

[Paul Tomkins]

Laz-e-Boy - whatever.

You don't like my stuff - fine. (You misunderstood half of it, but never mind.)

I won't lose sleep about that. I really can't be arsed with you. Have a good day.

 

[Paul Tomkins]

oh my god, first he is the only one to get the bigger picture and now everyone else is closed mind. Just for disagreeing with what this guy has to say. i am glad you operate such a free thinking forum, and im sure your not the type to think that just beacause someone disagrees with you, they must be somehow inferior to your great intellect, or narrow minded, or unable to grasp this 'bigger picture' that only your genious can comprehend.

Oh behave yourself!

[Bob Kurac]

i am glad you operate such a free thinking forum,

We do, don't we? By all means debate, that's what we're here for. Don't get abusive or insulting though. Consider this a warning, and the only one that'll be issued!

OK, as you were, carry on ...

[Laz-e-Boy]

its not i dont like your stuff, my original post was a comment on how funny it was written, i just wanted to bring to your attention one or two mistakes that you made in it. You were the one tha then started slagging me and saying i got my facts wrong. i am glad to see that you have accepted your mistakes and hope you endevour to do a little thing in the future called 'research' before you call a post of mine a 'lazy post'. You may attempt to excuse your laziness, but there is no excuse for hypocricy

[montse]

This is turning into an ephisode of east enders.  when does the dum-dum-dum bit start

[Mighty_Red]

Sorry, didnt know we werent allowed to disagree on a PUBLIC FORUM. Firstly trinkets versus silverware, hmmm, well when zidane said himself when he left juventus that he only wanted one trophy in club football i didnt realise he was talking about the world player of the year award. i, and the rest of the world, thought he was talking about the champions league. so glad that your here to enlighten us on all things football. Apart from the 1997 season and 1998 season, when he won the league and got to the champions league final first as a bit part player in his first season in 1997, and with a slightly higher profile in the 1998 season, his time with juventus was not a succesful one. If you actually watched a little seria a over the last few years you would know this.....

If you would like people to read what you have to say, please try to use paragraphs. Failing that, use of the return key every now and again would be oh so helpful.

Youve still arguing about the merits of individual players but youve missed the point completely, they are simply examples.

Zidane has been in a slow gradual decline since around 2001. He was (and still is to some degree) brilliant in 01-02 but age has started to catch up with him. The point is that Juve & France got the better years out of Zidane (even if Zidane didnt get the best years out of Juve)

Any other details are completely irrelevant for the purposes of the article!

Anyways, great stuff Paul, but to be honest youre not worth the expense, at your age, youre past it. We need younger big name writers on here 

[Paul Tomkins]

its not i dont like your stuff, my original post was a comment on how funny it was written, i just wanted to bring to your attention one or two mistakes that you made in it. You were the one tha then started slagging me and saying i got my facts wrong. i am glad to see that you have accepted your mistakes and hope you endevour to do a little thing in the future called 'research' before you call a post of mine a 'lazy post'. You may attempt to excuse your laziness, but there is no excuse for hypocricy

You listed four 'mistakes'. Some related to opinions, so they can't really be mistakes. Others, like the term 'reserve' are just semantics.

You have a very pedantic style and I can see you've already wound up other regulars. Whether Zidane cost £41m or £46m (I found the figure on a number of sources), he still cost a fuck of a lot of money. That was my point. I never said Zidane hasn't done well at Madrid. My point was that Juve got him for about a tenth of the cost, and had better value for money. My point was that, if you can, it is better to buy a superstar *before* they are known to be such.

Anyway, I'll be giving you a wide berth from now on. Feel free to do the same with me.

[Laz-e-Boy]

Heres a topic, 'liverpools summer transfer activity explained' . Liverpool are looking for a forward, an outside right, and some center backs. How do we know, because rafael benitez has implied directly or actually said on live television, that he wants to sign crouch, will look for other outside rights other than figo, as his deal is unlikely, and wants backups for sami and carra. Simple, objective, factually ccorrect and to the point, easy isnt it.

[montse]

Heres a topic, 'liverpools summer transfer activity explained' . Liverpool are looking for a forward, an outside right, and some center backs. How do we know, because rafael benitez has implied directly or actually said on live television, that he wants to sign crouch, will look for other outside rights other than figo, as his deal is unlikely, and wants backups for sami and carra. Simple, objective, factually ccorrect and to the point, easy isnt it.

Thanks laz-e-boy, as you said factual and to the point.  Wasn't as entertaining, I wouldn't buy your book based on this

perhaps it's not the time to joke

[armchair manager]

Heres a topic, 'liverpools summer transfer activity explained' . Liverpool are looking for a forward, an outside right, and some center backs. How do we know, because rafael benitez has implied directly or actually said on live television, that he wants to sign crouch, will look for other outside rights other than figo, as his deal is unlikely, and wants backups for sami and carra. Simple, objective, factually ccorrect and to the point, easy isnt it.

are you available for parties, weddings, etc?

[Bob Kurac]

Back to the discussion please ...

[Paul Tomkins]

I think both Paul T and Laz-e-Boy has a couple of good points, when it comes to Zizou Paul is right, he was the better player when he played at Juve, I follow both Serie A and La Liga so I know what I am talking about.

But the thing that annoys me with this discussion is that because Paul is a well known member of RAWK, someone tries to make fun of Laz-e-Boy because he disagrees with him...

Try to read the opinions without looking at the name of the writer and the number of posts sometime, cause I think a lot of threads would be looking alot different if that was the case.

I just don't like apparently "know-it-alls" pedantically trying to 'point score' to get one over on me, when done in a patronising fashion.  "Your piece was funny... [and I paraphrase] but there were a load of mistakes."

Which weren't necessarily mistakes, just an alternative opinion.

I make mistakes and get things wrong and admit to it, as any regular will know. (In this case, I stick by my original comments). But at the same time, I feel I've done enough on RAWK to deserve some respect, especially from newbies who've been on the board five minutes and are already shouting the odds. This is a community, not a place to come and try to argue about who has the biggest dick.

The poster in question has a style where he seems intent on long diatribes against people's posts, and doesn't seem to be entering into the spirit of things, in the way I take to be the "RAWK way", having been a staff member and a long-time poster.

Someone whose first post to me is trying to "shoot me down" as he thinks I am "someone purporting himself to be a footballing authority of any sort" is always going to get my heckles up.

[Laz-e-Boy]

thank you el figo. sorry, though,  i dont agree with you at all. i have watched serie a for a long time, and zidane was not used properly by juve until after the world cup in 98, when, ironically,  their decline began to set in. from the 99 season to the 2001 season juve really did not play good football, they rarely imposed their game on any of the big teams and really sucked in europe. at real madrid he is allowed to be far far more expressive when on the ball, and has to do much less work when tracking back and marking players. in italy this is second nature to all players, they msut all follow their defensive responsibilities from the goallie to the striker. the real madrid philosophy is very different to this, it is a matter of pride to them that their golden players do net get involved in the messy buissiness of defence and tackling. so unless you are saying that zidane is at his best when tracking back and trying to close players down in his own half of the pitch, as a pose to when he is running with the ball at his feet at defenders and making crosses, passes, tricks and shots, then how do you argue that he was 'at his best at juve'. Also he has a much better scoring rate and assist rate at real than he ever had at juve, also because they play flair football, whereas juve play negative football. We have seen a new dimension from zidane since he came to spain, and he has gone from being a great player, to one of the great 5 in the opinions of those in football.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

thank you el figo. sorry, though,  i dont agree with you at all. i have watched serie a for a long time, and zidane was not used properly by juve until after the world cup in 98, when, ironically,  their decline began to set in. from the 99 season to the 2001 season juve really did not play good football, they rarely imposed their game on any of the big teams and really sucked in europe.

At real madrid he is allowed to be far far more expressive when on the ball, and has to do much less work when tracking back and marking players. in italy this is second nature to all players, they must all follow their defensive responsibilities from the goallie to the striker.

The real madrid philosophy is very different to this, it is a matter of pride to them that their golden players do net get involved in the messy business of defence and tackling. so unless you are saying that zidane is at his best when tracking back and trying to close players down in his own half of the pitch, as opposed to when he is running with the ball at his feet at defenders and making crosses, passes, tricks and shots, then how do you argue that he was 'at his best at juve'.

Also he has a much better scoring rate and assist rate at real than he ever had at juve, also because they play flair football, whereas juve play negative football. We have seen a new dimension from zidane since he came to spain, and he has gone from being a great player, to one of the great 5 in the opinions of those in football.

[StevieMagic]

Well I always like a good discussion and this had the makings of one. Might have been a little heated at times but what debate is not? Intelligent posts by both and that cannot be all bad. If you put your opinion on the floor then its open to both praise & criticism. You cannot have it going one way all the time as it can get a wee boring eventually. If a comment invokes some thought then job well done is all I can say.

[kevindublin]

 This is a community, not a place to come and try to argue about who has the biggest dick.

i'll log off now then

[StevieMagic]

 and he has gone from being a great player, to one of the great 5 in the opinions of those in football....agree but that probably would have happened at Juve as well

[Redwhiteandnotblue]

(Admittedly, Michelangelo has been dead for 441 years, and as such, the metaphor is slightly ill conceived; unless, of course, to even it out, the monkey has also been dead for 441 years –– in which case, the whole thing is just rather macabre: a dead artist, a dead monkey and two untouched pieces of clay...)

That's not macabre - that's the winner of the Turner Prize 2006.

[StevieMagic]

i'll log off now then

LOL

And I thought I was the only one that was hitting their space bar with their knob

Sorry that was bad