Author Topic: Speeding Fines  (Read 9321 times)

Offline Squidge

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Speeding Fines
« on: July 4, 2005, 11:48:05 am »
Who's been done?

Got pulled over yesterday on the M1 - 95mph so no chance a getting out a that one.

To be fair copper was a nice enough bloke - just glad he didnt brethalize me cos i'd been out the night before so couldnt be 100% i'd a been back down to below the limit, reckon i'd a been alright but you never know
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Offline Buck Pete

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #1 on: July 4, 2005, 11:51:10 am »
Take your 3 points and 60 quid fine and be well thankful.

Another 6 mph and you'd be looking at a ban. Never mind what might have happened if you got the old "Blow into the machine sir".

Offline Squidge

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #2 on: July 4, 2005, 11:54:55 am »
Take your 3 points and 60 quid fine and be well thankful.

Another 6 mph and you'd be looking at a ban. Never mind what might have happened if you got the old "Blow into the machine sir".

Oh no worries there i gladly bent over and took my punishment.

Although i dont think its automatic ban over 100, think they have to prove its dangerous driving aswell these days which it werent. Would a meant court appearance though and getting stiffed for court fees at the very least
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Offline Graeme

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #3 on: July 4, 2005, 12:21:46 pm »
Although i dont think its automatic ban over 100, think they have to prove its dangerous driving aswell these days which it werent.

You'd do well to convince a magistrate that driving over 100mph isn't dangerous.

Offline wretchedpiles

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #4 on: July 4, 2005, 12:32:03 pm »
my only question is why so slow

was there anything in front of you at the time?

Offline Squidge

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #5 on: July 4, 2005, 12:36:41 pm »
You'd do well to convince a magistrate that driving over 100mph isn't dangerous.

you could be right but i think its more about road conditions etc and since it was bone dry and quiet i'd be ok.

anyway dont matter i aint off to court so not a problem
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Offline Kez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #6 on: July 4, 2005, 12:59:26 pm »
Always amazes me the amount of people who will try and contest speeding fines in court even though they were driving the car and they were speeding. All that happens is they piss the Magistrate off enough to end up with 4 or 5 points, £100 fine and another £250 costs. Not really worth it is it!

Offline rob1966

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #7 on: July 4, 2005, 01:05:42 pm »
Always amazes me the amount of people who will try and contest speeding fines in court even though they were driving the car and they were speeding. All that happens is they piss the Magistrate off enough to end up with 4 or 5 points, £100 fine and another £250 costs. Not really worth it is it!

Spot on, they hate it when people do that.
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Offline Kez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #8 on: July 4, 2005, 01:09:11 pm »
Mind you, there was a case in Staffordshire of a bloke trying to argue that because of the tsunami the results of the Gatso were unreliable because of the "time" the laser took to register the speed. Something to do with the theory of relativity and it's effect on the laser or some such nonsense.

Suffice to say, it didn't work.

Offline bez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #9 on: July 4, 2005, 10:00:24 pm »
I wanted to contest mine at Christmas.  69mph in a 60 zone over woodhead pass.  10% plus 2 mph is the cut off point apparently for calibration variations.  whats 9mph in a car thats designed to be a tourer with big tyres and amazing brakes!!  Gutted after 10 years of a clean license, my insurance renewal should be fun
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Offline Squidge

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #10 on: July 4, 2005, 10:02:58 pm »
wouldnt worry about your insurance mate it doesnt make much diff if any at all.

me boss got done a week before renewal was due.

he'd got his quote sorted - got a requote with the points and his quote went down!!!

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Offline bez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #11 on: July 4, 2005, 10:04:23 pm »
I hope so, a write off and speeding in 1 year :no
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #12 on: July 4, 2005, 10:09:41 pm »
Doing over 100 and being caught, stopped and given the ticket is an instant ban.

Speeding Offence Points System.

Exceeding the limit by between 5 and 14mph 3 points
Exceeding the limit by between 15 and 19mph 4 points
Exceeding the limit by between 20 and 24mph 5 points
Exceeding the limit by between 25 and 29mph 6 points
Exceeding the limit by 30mph or more Banned


that was as at january 2003
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Offline Squidge

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #13 on: July 4, 2005, 10:09:53 pm »
checked mine today with tesco and the diff was about £20 but thats just looking at one place.

I'm not expecting my premium to go up just maybe lose the benefit i would a got from the extra years no claims I'll have (searches frantically for a match to stroke)
Monkey monkey do

Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #14 on: July 4, 2005, 10:59:59 pm »
Mind you, there was a case in Staffordshire of a bloke trying to argue that because of the tsunami the results of the Gatso were unreliable because of the "time" the laser took to register the speed. Something to do with the theory of relativity and it's effect on the laser or some such nonsense.

Suffice to say, it didn't work.

ProLaser III is notoriously unreliable. And doesn't work through glass.

Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #15 on: July 4, 2005, 11:00:20 pm »
You'd do well to convince a magistrate that driving over 100mph isn't dangerous.

safety cannot be measured in mph.

Offline Bluto-clause

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #16 on: July 5, 2005, 02:01:53 am »
Got the letter yesterday, banned for 3 months for fuck all, I got stopped driving out the park gates while putting my seat belt on, 3 points, then caught by a camers doing 75 kilometers ph in a 60 zone, 3 more points and a ban, what a load of wank!
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Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #17 on: July 5, 2005, 02:20:33 am »
Got the letter yesterday, banned for 3 months for fuck all, I got stopped driving out the park gates while putting my seat belt on, 3 points, then caught by a camers doing 75 kilometers ph in a 60 zone, 3 more points and a ban, what a load of wank!

Wank indeed, but it could have been worse.



































Could have been me 8)

Offline ThingOnASpring

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #18 on: July 5, 2005, 02:58:41 am »
I stuck lucky at the begining of this year. Was doddering along at a saintly 85 on the m40, when I was overtaken by a police landrover. Don't think he even batted an eyelid.
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Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #19 on: July 5, 2005, 03:59:48 am »
Squidge, mate I'm not trying to  be, in the least, funny here, but you get yourself in some funny situations.
If it isn't tryin to get yourself in to some oulder birds Alan Whickers, and you're obviously not quite content with that. You've got to try break the world formula 1 record, from getting to one place to another.
And if thats not enough, play togger with some birds, who you are worried about how to approach said game.

My point is, can I play in that game with the birds? :P

Offline Squidge

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #20 on: July 5, 2005, 10:12:34 am »
Squidge, mate I'm not trying to  be, in the least, funny here, but you get yourself in some funny situations.
If it isn't tryin to get yourself in to some oulder birds Alan Whickers, and you're obviously not quite content with that. You've got to try break the world formula 1 record, from getting to one place to another.
And if thats not enough, play togger with some birds, who you are worried about how to approach said game.

My point is, can I play in that game with the birds? :P

i just like to share my humourous life with others - if my stupidity can bring light into others lives then my work here is done  :P

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #21 on: July 5, 2005, 10:15:06 am »
You'd do well to convince a magistrate that driving over 100mph isn't dangerous.

Unless, of course, you're an officer of the law, in which case 146MPH is considered perfectly safe.
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Offline blurred

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #22 on: July 5, 2005, 10:24:59 am »
Unless, of course, you're an officer of the law, in which case 146MPH is considered perfectly safe.

What's that I hear...? Ah yes, an impending attack of the Millsee :D

Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #23 on: July 5, 2005, 12:16:12 pm »
What's that I hear...? Ah yes, an impending attack of the Millsee :D

Hmmm....?

ProLaser III is notoriously unreliable. And doesn't work through glass.

safety cannot be measured in mph.

Any questions?

Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #24 on: July 5, 2005, 02:34:00 pm »
i just like to share my humourous life with others - if my stupidity can bring light into others lives then my work here is done  :P



Keep them comming mate  ;D

Offline campioni1984

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #25 on: July 5, 2005, 05:45:27 pm »
Just tell the courts the papparazzi were chasing you,or that you had the shites.I`ve heard that works. ;)
Anyone see that pissed up fella in yesterdays paper? He was pissed,so he didn`t drive back from the pub.Instead he got a blind woman to drive him,and she ploughed into a load of parked cars.He said he didn`t notice she was blind.
Blind drunk! :lmao
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Offline Kez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #26 on: July 5, 2005, 05:46:49 pm »
ProLaser III is notoriously unreliable. And doesn't work through glass.

They weren't aiming it through glass. Get loads of excuses at Staff's Magistrates and some of them are pretty amusing to listen to. Then you get the idiots who arrange to challenge in court and don't turn up for their appearances, twice. The Magistrate's got really pissed off with that one. Think the bloke ended up with a £200 fine, £500 costs and 4 points for being an annoying bastard. Pretty heavy penalty when you consider it would have been £60 and 3 points if he'd just paid.

Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #27 on: July 5, 2005, 07:41:24 pm »
Pretty heavy penalty when you consider it would have been £60 and 3 points if he'd just paid.

But isn't that the way the whole thing is predacated? For every case you can come with like this, I can produce a huge miscarriage of justice where magistrates will convict someone oin court when the CPS don't even turn up. Or when they "lose" vital evidence like the calibration certificates. Or when they claim that the vehcile was doing a speed in excess of what it is capable.

Your last comment is the basis of all that is rotten about this whole speed camera issue. Motorists are just expected to pay up and shut up. There a presumption of guilt - quite possibly the only crime where the defendent has to prove his innocence. It is all about £££ - the Treasury want to raise a bit more cash (£100m or so) from otherwise law abiding people who happen to drive past a school at 3am in the middle of August at 23mph.

You see, there's no room any more for mitigation. You walk down the street pissed, and a copper will approach you and see if you are a danger. What is there was a "pissed camera". Every time you have 2 pints and stepped outside - "CHING!".

Anyway, read this:

The traffic engineer was quite pleased with himself, he had finally managed to stop the local bus drivers trying to take their double deckers under the low bridge under the railway, so Councillor Prescott might finally concede that he knew what he was doing. But as he entered Prescott's office he saw that the councillor was in an ominously thoughtful mood.

'I see we've had a reduction in accidents in Railway Terrace' said Mr Prescott, 'Yes' said the engineer, anxious to demonstrate his success, 'You see I did a survey and found that the maximum safe height under the bridge was 12'2", so I arranged for some warning signs to stop anyone taking a vehicle more than 12' high...'

But the Councillor had already lost interest. 'I've been studying some statistics' said the Councillor (the engineer winced, Councillor Prescott's grasp of mathematics was notoriously shaky) 'and it seems that when those new warning signs went up the average height of vehicles using Railway Terrace fell by 9 inches', 'Well, yes..' replied the engineer, 'and accidents dropped by 18%' continued the Councillor triumphantly'. The traffic engineer tried to figure out where this was leading, 'Do you realise what this means? Every inch of average height reduction leads to a 2% reduction in accidents! All we have to do is alter the warning signs to read 11' and accidents will drop by another 24%!'

His head spinning, the traffic engineer tried to reason with the Councillor, 'but if a 12 foot vehicle can get through perfectly safely, what is the point in imposing extra restrictions?' Councillor Prescott was having none of this, 'you don't seem to understand, Height Kills, if every inch of height reduction causes a 2% drop in accidents, surely we must have a height limit reduction program, let's speak to the bus company and see if they can lower the single deckers somehow.'

The traffic engineer thought quickly, there was no point in trying to explain the facts, Councillor Prescott always regarded knowledge of road traffic and accident causation a fatal disqualification for making decisions on the subject, but there was a possible way to turn the situation to advantage. 'There is another low bridge, under the disused railway in Beeching Close, where lorries do sometimes get stuck, but I haven't had the funds to tackle the problem before, I suggest that should be the first priority for the height reduction program'. Councillor Prescott agreed and the traffic engineer set off for Beeching Close with measuring rod in hand.

At first it wasn't clear why there was a problem at this particular bridge, there was already a height restriction of 7 feet, so why on earth were drivers ignoring it? After an examination of the bridge the reason became clear, the maximum safe height was over 14 feet. On receiving a recommendation that the 7 foot height limit was unrealistic and should be raised, Councillor Prescott was apoplectic, 'lorries are getting stuck because they are too high' he yelled, 'surely the limit needs to be lowered'. The engineer tried to point out that it was precisely because the limit was obviously ludicrous that it was being ignored, and that raising the limit would increase compliance, but the Councillor did not understand. 'In Railway Terrace, reducing the height reduced accidents, therefore Height Kills' he argued, 'surely raising the limit in Beeching Close will increase average heights, therefore increase accidents,' 'But it isn't the average height that matters' the engineer tried to point out, 'a 14 foot limit will be taken seriously and will reduce instances of excessive height, therefore reduce accidents, whether the average goes up or down is totally beside the point'. 'But Height Kills' bellowed the Councillor, 'no it doesn't' the engineer bellowed back, of course he should have said 'not necessarily' but this is not an easy thing to bellow.

'How can you say height didn't cause this?' Councillor Prescott produced a press photo of the mangled remains of a double decker wedged under the Railway Terrace bridge and dropped it on the desk with the air of one producing the ace of trumps. 'The point was that the height was excessive for the situation, it is excessive height that causes the problem, not height itself' the engineer protested, but the Councillor wasn't listening, 'I've already decided to introduce a height reduction program, reducing all existing height limits by a foot, if this succeeds in reducing heights, I'll introduce a host of new height limits, if it doesn't I'll reduce the limits further until it does....'

The engineer stopped listening; once Councillor Prescott had made up his mind, there was no point in giving him the facts.

Offline Scouser_Phil

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #28 on: July 5, 2005, 07:51:10 pm »
I got pulled on Muirhead Avenue the other day by an unmarked bizzie car doing over 80mph, its a 30 or 40 for those who dont know. I seen the blue lights behind me and thought shit I have lost me license ere, because I had already received 3 points for parking on those zig zag lines on Dale St and your only allowed 6 points in your first 2 years. But the bizzie was sound and just gave me a £30 fine. First sound bizzie I have ever met.  :roger
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Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #29 on: July 5, 2005, 07:52:49 pm »
I got pulled on Muirhead Avenue the other day by an unmarked bizzie car doing over 80mph, its a 30 or 40 for those who dont know. I seen the blue lights behind me and thought shit I have lost me license ere, because I had already received 3 points for parking on those zig zag lines on Dale St and your only allowed 6 points in your first 2 years. But the bizzie was sound and just gave me a £30 fine. First sound bizzie I have ever met.  :roger

presumably because you weren't driving dangerously? what did he say to you?

Offline Steven Gerrard

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #30 on: July 5, 2005, 08:01:21 pm »
you were well lucky then!  :o
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time

Offline Kez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #31 on: July 5, 2005, 08:13:07 pm »
But isn't that the way the whole thing is predacated? For every case you can come with like this, I can produce a huge miscarriage of justice where magistrates will convict someone oin court when the CPS don't even turn up. Or when they "lose" vital evidence like the calibration certificates. Or when they claim that the vehcile was doing a speed in excess of what it is capable.

Your last comment is the basis of all that is rotten about this whole speed camera issue. Motorists are just expected to pay up and shut up. There a presumption of guilt - quite possibly the only crime where the defendent has to prove his innocence. It is all about £££ - the Treasury want to raise a bit more cash (£100m or so) from otherwise law abiding people who happen to drive past a school at 3am in the middle of August at 23mph.

Bottom line Milsee, whether you like it or not, if you break the speed limit then you break the law. If the Gatso flashes then the evidence is crystal clear on the photograph - date, time, image of car and often the back of the person driving, and the speed the car was travelling at. If you are caught by a laser with the video, then you are perfectly entitled to go into the local CTO and look at the film of you speeding.

I never said speed cameras weren't a money making venture, but I'm quite thankful for them around this area. I live on the doorstep of a section of the A34 that a lot of motorists use to bypass sections of the M6. There is a major roundabout within 10 mins walking distance from my house where many motorists used to fly round at upwards of 30mph. Now they are considerably slower due to the proliferation of speed cameras, something I am sure the parents of local kids who travel on school buses that use the route are greatful for. I was certainly greatful when I was learning to drive because, as a nervous new driver, the slower speeds of other motorists made sure I could get round the roundabout without being overtaken and cut up by speeding idiots. Now whilst I freely admit that cutting people up is an act of dangerous driving rather than speed related, it happens much less often now drivers are forced to slow because they know the cameras are there and that they are nearly always on.

You and I are never going to agree with this issue. You do not see excessive speed as unsafe; I, and many others, do. 

Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #32 on: July 5, 2005, 08:26:51 pm »
Bottom line Milsee, whether you like it or not, if you break the speed limit then you break the law.

Yeah, I know. And unfortunately there's no way of protesting about unjust laws. The examples you quote about Gatsos are false - if a scammer takes a pictur eof your car, it is assumed the registered keeper is the driver unless they prove otherwise. Like many other facets of law, guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Also, you can only look at the film, generally, if you pay a fee. Again - KERCHING!

So we should just sit back and let the state invoke whatever money raising ventures they feel like and let it happen.

You and I are never going to agree with this issue. You do not see excessive speed as unsafe; I, and many others, do. 

Indeed, myself and many fellow professional traffic engineers do not feel speed above the nominal limit is an issue - I have never claimed excessive speed is not an issue - but unfortunately,you and some other members of the public without 15 years of training and experience in this area seem to be in the know. Also, please avoid the distinction between "speed above the posted limit" and "excessive speed" - there is no correlation.

Experts like this guy, seem these days to be in the minority. And scameras in the majority.

Latest research from the Univeristy of Liverpool indicates that the effects of speed cameras are very much overstated. I would welcome your take on this.

Also, I'm also trying to find any evidence of a link between speed and accident rates without success.

IMO, cameras will all be removed from the roads within 5 years or so. And good riddance I say.

Offline scouser_senny

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #33 on: July 5, 2005, 08:29:29 pm »
phil maybe if you slowd down and did not drive 70mph you would not get stopped !!! all i can say is your a idiot... ha
sennyp

Offline Scouser_Phil

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #34 on: July 5, 2005, 08:37:27 pm »
presumably because you weren't driving dangerously? what did he say to you?

He said do you know why I have stopped you and I said yes for speeding and wearing no seat belt. He said I was doing over 70mph and I could not keep up. He basically gave me a bollocking, I said I was sorry and that if he does me for speeding I would lose my license. He was sound and said watch you speed in future and I will just give you a £30 seat belt fine.

How sound was he  ;D

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Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #35 on: July 5, 2005, 08:38:01 pm »
You and I are never going to agree with this issue.

I know, but I enjoy discussing it with you. It keeps my debating skills honed :wave

Offline Kez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #36 on: July 5, 2005, 08:39:22 pm »
Yeah, I know. And unfortunately there's no way of protesting about unjust laws. The examples you quote about Gatsos are false - if a scammer takes a pictur eof your car, it is assumed the registered keeper is the driver unless they prove otherwise. Like many other facets of law, guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Also, you can only look at the film, generally, if you pay a fee. Again - KERCHING!

Not around here. There is no fee for viewing. And there are plenty of ways of protesting unjust laws - write to your local MP, hell they help pass the laws. Write to the government. Get together an action group and lobby Parliament etc. etc.

Quote
Indeed, myself and many fellow professional traffic engineers do not feel speed above the nominal limit is an issue - I have never claimed excessive speed is not an issue - but unfortunately,you and some other members of the public without 15 years of training and experience in this area seem to be in the know.

I know that if I get hit by a car I am going to get injured. The higher you drop a stone from a building, the more damage it does on impact because of the speed it builds on its descent. Logic would suggest, therefore, that on a horizontal rather than vertical impact, the faster a driver is going, the more damage he/she will do to the person they hit.

Quote
Latest research from the Univeristy of Liverpool indicates that the effects of speed cameras are very much overstated. I would welcome your take on this.

As I'm on my summer break I'm trying to do as little academic work as possible but I will look for the report.

Quote
IMO, cameras will all be removed from the roads within 5 years or so. And good riddance I say.

And replaced with?

There is an interesting argument to be had between the accountability of people who kill. If a driver kills a person because they were going too fast and lost control,  is this a more or less heinous crime than someone who murders in cold blood? How about premeditated murder? Had a debate about this in a criminal tutorial and it got pretty heated!

Offline Kez

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #37 on: July 5, 2005, 08:39:49 pm »
I know, but I enjoy discussing it with you. It keeps my debating skills honed :wave

Likewise. I consider our debates to be good trial practice ;D

Offline scouser_senny

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #38 on: July 5, 2005, 08:53:34 pm »
phil you drive like a physco
sennyp

Offline Millsee

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Re: Speeding Fines
« Reply #39 on: July 5, 2005, 08:58:58 pm »
Not around here. There is no fee for viewing. And there are plenty of ways of protesting unjust laws - write to your local MP, hell they help pass the laws. Write to the government. Get together an action group and lobby Parliament etc. etc.

This has happened plenty of times. TRL refuse ot comment on the flawed report TRL431, the Government trots out the rather lame and tired "speed kills", and indulges the public in more and more propoganda like 1950s cars with their brakes altered being pictured hitting kids in the middle of the road who just happened to be sat there playing.

I know that if I get hit by a car I am going to get injured. The higher you drop a stone from a building, the more damage it does on impact because of the speed it builds on its descent. Logic would suggest, therefore, that on a horizontal rather than vertical impact, the faster a driver is going, the more damage he/she will do to the person they hit.

But in this, you assume that the collision is going to take place at all. Surely the thing to do is to educate people to a much higher standard than they are now, and teach them an appropriate speed to drive at, given the conditions. In that way, the collision won't happen at all - or at least the risk of it is greatly reduced. 95% of accidents are caused by driver error, it seems a good place as any to start.

As I'm on my summer break I'm trying to do as little academic work as possible but I will look for the report.

Check out TRL 421 while you are at it, and see if you can spot the flaw (actually, it's quote din Annex A of the report, so you don't have to look far!!). If you can't get the full report, let me know - I've got a password to a site with tons of info like this.

And replaced with?

Nothing. There's no link between speed cameras and accident rates (except the latest data which shows the highest rise in casualty rates in areas with speed cameras, and the lowest in the enlightened areas without).

There is an interesting argument to be had between the accountability of people who kill. If a driver kills a person because they were going too fast and lost control,  is this a more or less heinous crime than someone who murders in cold blood? How about premeditated murder? Had a debate about this in a criminal tutorial and it got pretty heated!

Interesting, but who defines what is "too fast"? And who is to say that the incident wouldn't have occured at a lower speed. What if car defects were really at fault? Or road conditions? Or the pedestrian was drunk and stepped into the road? Or the driver was inexperienced? Or fell asleep?

I have tried and failed to come up with a single conceivable incident where speed is the single causal factor in an accident, so IMO, your debate is flawed from the outset unless you can bring in other contributory factors.