Author Topic: 1965 and all  (Read 11544 times)

Offline john_mac

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1965 and all
« on: January 19, 2005, 07:27:58 PM »
1965, 1974, 1986, 1989, 1992, 2001

So what the fuck was that all about?

An absolute disgrace to see Liverpool Football Club treat the competition that Shankly described as both the greatest in the world, and as the one which brought him his greatest day in football, with such disrespect.

It made me absolutely sick to see what has become a money machine grind on, unintereted in what the competition had to offer and what it means to us. Were these bastards there when Michael broke Arsenal hearts? Did they see a broken hearted Aldridge after he became the first player to miss a penalty in a final? Do they know what it meant to bury the Blues not once but twice? Well it's beyond me.

We treated both the competition and the opposition with a total lack of respect, totally unworthy of what I know as Liverpool. In 2001 our chief executive boasted that Liverpool Football Club existed to win trophies. Maybe at the end of this season he will proudly boast that "Liverpool Football Club exists to finish fourth".

Do these pricks know what it means to go to Cardiff? Do they know what it means to win the Cup? Fucken doubt it.

I won't blame the kids, they have performed admirably, most notably at Spurs. But does the FA Cup really mean so little to us? Can we afford it to? Maybe a Champions League place should be put on offer for the winners? Had Millwall won it last season, they would have deserved it more than our poxy fourth. The FA Cup means so much; the history, the tradition, the memories, everything about the competition.

St John and Keegan made it for Shanks, Kenny's double and the second leg of Houlliers treble, and then plenty of heartbreaks along the way. Wonderful times at places as distant as Swansea, Carlisle and Norwich, to say nothing of beating the other crowd in semis and finals.

Losing to the Superstore twice in finals was an absolute fucken killer, as was Mick bastard Mills's goal, and the fact that Paisley never lifted the trophy. What he'd make of last night god only knows. The four semis against Arsenal and Terry Mac's goal at Spurs before battling our way the length of the Seven Sisters to get home.

Has the FA Cup really been consigned to our memory? Does it really mean so little? 'Cos the other thing Liverpool Football Club showed no respect for last night was us, the stupid fans who line their pockets every week. Then again that's what we're there for, part of the money making machine that Liverpool Football Club has become in our haste to follow in the footsteps of the superstore down the other end of the East Lancs Road.

Shankly decided to rebuild the team and replace his loyal players after an FA Cup defeat to lower division opposition, that's how much it meant to him. Maybe after last night's debacle the time has come to call it a day and wipe our hands, Pontius Pilot style, of what the club has become.  I can't see myself or many others doing it, but let's be honest, it fucken stinks.

Another nail in the coffin of what was once our club, but no longer fucken is.

© john_mac 2005
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 03:39:18 AM by Rushian »
We'll See Things They'll Never See

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2005, 07:31:41 PM »
John Mac. Thank fuck for people like you. :wellin

I'll be adding my two pence worth after all the wankers have been on here and spouted a load of bollocks and they've no doubt slagged you off.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2005, 07:31:58 PM »
John, I must have missed something - did we go out of the Carling Cup and Champions League as well last night?

As for the FA Cup, of course Rafa wanted to win it, but his hands were tied in many ways; in other ways he made mistakes. His players also let him down.

Oh, and not winning the FA Cup never did Bob Paisley's reputation much harm. Let's wait until May before writing off Rafa's decisions last night - if it helps attain other goals, then all well and good.

Offline Oscar3

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2005, 07:32:28 PM »
Here Here!
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2005, 07:33:13 PM »
John Mac. Thank fuck for people like you. :wellin

I'll be adding my two pence worth after all the wankers have been on here and spouted a load of bollocks and they've no doubt slagged you off.


Slagging John off is one thing; disagreeing is another.

The pride and great reputation of Liverpool football club was not built on the FA Cup alone.

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 07:34:25 PM »

Slagging John off is one thing; disagreeing is another.


Yup. But keep you're eyes on this thread because it'll probably happen.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 07:35:28 PM »
Anyway, good to read a passionate piece like that, even if I disagree with the overall thrust of it - I still think we lost a game last night, nothing more. Some people are building it into the end of football, even the end of the world.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2005, 07:37:47 PM »
Yup. But keep you're eyes on this thread because it'll probably happen.


Unfortunately there's a whole host of other threads on the topic to keep our eyes on!

I know last night was galling, and annoying for anyone who paid to travel. But that's football sometimes. There's never been any guarantees of success, or even good football.

I also remember Liverpool's reputation being built on the patience of fans; this is not aimed at John, obviously, but no manager ever turned a club around in six months.

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 07:38:36 PM »
Anyway, good to read a passionate piece like that, even if I disagree with the overall thrust of it - I still think we lost a game last night, nothing more. Some people are building it into the end of football, even the end of the world.
Not quite Paul, but I certainly woke up this morning and I've finally actually realised some of the things that I've known for a long time but have ignored, dismissed and made light of.

I feel like something has finally dawned on me.

Offline john_mac

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 07:40:07 PM »

The pride and great reputation of Liverpool football club was not built on the FA Cup alone.

It was not Paul, but i must admit I can never, ever remember us showing so little respect to this competition nor theopposition we faced in it.

Disagree if you want, its yours and everybody elses, but I know that most people who were there last night felt exactly these sentiments.

Whilst the Cup isn't the be all and end all, we've gone out to worse teams than Burnley in the past, even at home, but the whole scenario last night left a nasty taste, a very naste taste if I'm honest. Do we honestly have so little respect for the competition, the opposition and our own fans?

There is no way we could not have put a stronger team out last night. There is no way we should have gone out of the competition last night and there is no way had it been a league game last night we would have selected that team.

The fact is that the money dominated fourth spot has become the be all and end all of the club, more important than the 'reason we exist'!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 07:43:02 PM by john_mac »
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Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 07:40:38 PM »
but no manager ever turned a club around in six months.
I don't have any question marks over the managers ability to make us a great side. But I do have a problem with what went on last night and I suspect that is where John is coming from too.

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2005, 07:48:20 PM »

The fact is that the money dominated fourth spot has become the be all and end all of the club, more important than the 'reason we exist'!
Not only that John, it's this total bollocks that we're fed all the time about needing to rest players to concentrate on it.

Are we really in such a sad state of affairs that we cannot compete in the Fa cup whilst challenging to finish as low sorry I mean as high as 4th place above Everton and Middlesborough? If so then God help us. I'm all for resting a few players, but the whole team!?!?!

Would playing Hamman, Carra, Riise, and a few others last night seriously hinder our chances of finishing 4th?

I wouldn't mind so much if these 'rested' players come back the next game and play blinders but how often does that actually happen?

Offline murgaz

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 07:52:28 PM »
john, agree with your sentiments completely.But maybe last night was the wake up call we all needed-hopefully that was rock bottom and we'll all realise the mess we we've been left in at the end of last season and realise the way back will be a long one

Offline El mooro

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 07:52:58 PM »
Thank you John, agree entirely.

Some of my best early memories are of Liverpool in the F.A. Cup.  I remember going down to my grandad's grave after we had beat Everton in '86 to tell him the result, knowin' he'd be made up since half his brothers were Bluenoses!

I remember my first Cup Final in '88, how amazed I was by the occassion, even though the result went against us. And I remember sitting on the dog track around Wembley in '89, and watching that amazing game unfold.

I remember Wright's "You fuckin beauty" as he lifted the cup, and the desolation in the creme suit final.

And I remember Owen, tucking that away, the elation, the joy, the pride.

I love the F.A. Cup. There is a great piece by Steve M on the front page of this website tonight, on how the players do not have  passion for the game. Well neither do the clubs. If coming fourth by thirty points versus winning the F.A. Cup has become a reason for celebration, then planet football is beyond redemption.

The apologists for footy economics can continue all they want. I want us to compete on the big stage-sure. But I also want us to show we are part of the community that is football. And I want us winning what I believe to be the best knock-out competition in the world.

Perhaps it is easier for those who have grown up in the Sky Sport/Champion's League era to see the F.A. Cup as a minor inconvenience. I prefer to remember it as it was.





« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 07:57:53 PM by El mooro »
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Offline Guz-kop

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 07:53:49 PM »
Not only that John, it's this total bollocks that we're fed all the time about needing to rest players to concentrate on it.

Are we really in such a sad state of affairs that we cannot compete in the Fa cup whilst challenging to finish as low sorry I mean as high as 4th place above Everton and Middlesborough? If so then God help us. I'm all for resting a few players, but the whole team!?!?!

Would playing Hamman, Carra, Riise, and a few others last night seriously hinder our chances of finishing 4th?

I wouldn't mind so much if these 'rested' players come back the next game and play blinders but how often does that actually happen?

To  be fair, Hamann, Carra, Riise were the only senior players that wouldve played if possible. I dont think Garcia wouldve got anywhere near the team bus even unless we only had 11 fit players. I'd have liked to see a stronger side out or atleast more options on the bench but I dont see the point in crucifying the manager who put out a side that he believed (and are) capable of beating Division 1 oppposition.
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2005, 08:00:21 PM »
john, agree with your sentiments completely.But maybe last night was the wake up call we all needed-hopefully that was rock bottom and we'll all realise the mess we we've been left in at the end of last season and realise the way back will be a long one
I thought there might be a few blaming Houllier for last nights debacle. :wanker

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2005, 08:04:05 PM »
but I dont see the point in crucifying the manager 
I'm not crucifying him but I don't think he'll do that again next year, not to that extent anyway.

who put out a side that he believed (and are) capable of beating Division 1 oppposition.
I'm not so sure about that. I can't guess what he's thinking but everything about how we went about last night suggests to me that he is probably not all that bothered we are out.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 08:16:25 PM by vladallover »

Offline D🐶G

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2005, 08:04:20 PM »
Well said, John. Agree 100% with what you've had to say.
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Offline trigger

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2005, 08:04:37 PM »

The fact is that the money dominated fourth spot has become the be all and end all of the club, more important than the 'reason we exist'!

HEAR HEAR.....totally agree with everything you've said mate, got a sneaky feeling Rafa is experiencing the peroid of awful realisation today, and i seriously doubt he'll be making the same mistake twice.
I only hope the wasters that were on display last night make a swift speedy exit from our club and get into non league where they fuckin belong
Frankly if your team is mentioned in a Liverpool song, you should be chuffed

Offline D🐶G

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2005, 08:06:07 PM »
I thought there might be a few blaming Houllier for last nights debacle. :wanker

People probably will. The people that think Benitez never has done and never will do any wrong - these are probably the same people who thought this when Houllier was into the early days of his reign. Say what you want about Houllier, I bet you Benitez doesn't win six cups in five years of managing this football club; thats if he lasts that long.
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Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2005, 08:07:02 PM »
the FA is a good as any indicator that football has lost its way .... I feel like its a personal tragedy when we get knocked out the cup...yet you get these knobs in the media and worse still fans who "put it into perspective".....being a fan means NEVER putting being knocked out the cup into "perspective
"  ( and please don't bother saying the obvious, I know what that pain meant)....jeez I can still feel the pain of Brighton knocking us out the Cup ,,Ronnie Whelan's shot sticking in the mud one yard from the line..Aaaaargh!!!...as for those 4 Arsenal semis!!!!!....jeez !!!!.....and I have to pinch myself to remind meself that  I have actually felt better ( European cups etc) than that moment when Mickeys goal hit the back of the net against Arsenal....I still get a buzz thinking about it now..

So it pissed me off last night...like it will next year..and the year after...until we win it again...so I dont car e if its  Raffa , the players or my fellow fans ..you are  all talking out of your arses if you dont think last night was a blow to what LFC is..was ..should be ...about!

Offline Bannside Red

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2005, 08:14:50 PM »
Very well written John, I agree with you 100%


When the draw is made for next year's 3rd Round our fans will hardly be rushing out to buy tickets. We have set our stall out and will pay the price.

FA Cup RIP.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2005, 08:15:16 PM »
I'm not crucifying him but I don't think he'll do that again next year, not to that extenet anyway.
I'm not so sure about that. I can't guess what he's thinking but everything about how we went about last night suggests to me that he is probably not all that bothered we are out.

Sorry not suggesting you were crucifying him but some have been.

Not sure about the second part last night? If you're referring to his post match comments then they did seem a bit of "oh well who cares" but to be honest he looked like a man who was miserable with the fact that he got let down by his players on the night and didnt show it in front of the tele. I dont think for a minute that's what he would have said to the players. And re the team selection, well if he went on the basis that those players were good enough for Boro, Spurs and Millwall then clearly he did believe they were good enough? If he thought they needed better players he wouldve fielded them like against Watford.

But agree with you that it'll never happen again in the fa cup. I do think Benitez underestimated how much the fa cup still means in this country and if there was one thing good to come out of last night it was hopefully that.
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Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2005, 08:20:21 PM »

Not sure about the second part last night? If you're referring to his post match comments then they did seem a bit of "oh well who cares" but to be honest he looked like a man who was miserable with the fact that he got let down by his players on the night and didnt show it in front of the tele.
What I meant was, he was defiant about the team he picked, insisting he was happy about it but I'm not sure I believe his reasons for picking that team. I'm not sure he really did believe we would win. I think his attitude towards last night was 'this team might win but I'll not be losing any sleep if they do get beat'. He'd never admit that though.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 08:23:10 PM by vladallover »

Offline Wendi

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2005, 08:24:02 PM »
IMHO the 'problem' has been misidentified.

It is not disrespecting the FA Cup thats the problem. Its not having the depth of squad to be able to give it the respect (some of) the fans believe it deserves.

Today I think  all the clubs who play CL use squad players in cup ties. They dont really do anything different to us, except that their reserves are better than ours.  OK that mightnt make it right to those who want things to be like they use to, and in that sense the points made in the opening post are good ones. But imho its just not how it is anymore.

As my Nan use to say

Things Change.




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Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2005, 08:26:57 PM »

Things Change.

Yes and bit by bit football is becoming a huge crock of shit that is slowly breaking most of our hearts. Question is will any of us ever fuck it off? Probably not although I'm waiting for the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2005, 08:34:16 PM »
Whilst the Cup isn't the be all and end all, we've gone out to worse teams than Burnley in the past, even at home, but the whole scenario last night left a nasty taste, a very naste taste if I'm honest. Do we honestly have so little respect for the competition, the opposition and our own fans?


Were the fans disrespected at White Hart Lane and the New Den? Different competition, but those fans who made that longer journey got good value for money. I know when I used to go regularly, I loved seeing the kids. I was at stoke in 2000, when Stephen Wright and Richie Partridge were blooded, with Arphexad in goal. We won 8-0.

If we'd been out of the other competitions, then I'd have found it a lot more worrying. Same applies if we had a fully fit squad. But this season isn't about just finishing fourth - we're still in two cups, lest anyone forget. 

Offline Kendoddscat

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2005, 08:38:59 PM »
I wouldnt mind if we were playin AC Milan or Barcelona on saturday but its only fuckin southampton, why do we need to rest players to play southampton?

Not that they need resting that is

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2005, 08:40:36 PM »
I wouldnt mind if we were playin AC Milan or Barcelona on saturday but its only fuckin southampton, why do we need to rest players to play southampton?

Not that they need resting that is
Another good point :wellin

Offline hooded claw

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2005, 08:42:34 PM »
Because like it or not, our finances and our ability to attract the best players in the summer depends on clinching 4th spot.  It's horses for courses- when Yakubu starts mithering about 'needing to play in the CL' you know that- like it or not- we have to be in that competition year in year out.

Offline Disintegration

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2005, 08:44:20 PM »
John, I must have missed something - did we go out of the Carling Cup and Champions League as well last night?

As for the FA Cup, of course Rafa wanted to win it, but his hands were tied in many ways; in other ways he made mistakes. His players also let him down.

Oh, and not winning the FA Cup never did Bob Paisley's reputation much harm. Let's wait until May before writing off Rafa's decisions last night - if it helps attain other goals, then all well and good.

Precisely.

Did teams face financial catastrophe & long-term mid-table status (or worse!) by not qualifying for this shambles of a "Champions" League in 1965?

Thought not. Football has changed - if you want to blame anyone, blame UEFA & the fact that football is dominated by money above all else in this day and age.

Offline Wendi

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2005, 08:47:46 PM »
Yes and bit by bit football is becoming a huge crock of shit that is slowly breaking most of our hearts. Question is will any of us ever fuck it off? Probably not although I'm waiting for the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Yes many have that view.

But really theres nothing any of us can do about it. So we as fans and a club have 3 choices.

1. Give it all away

2. Cling on to the past as some sentimental lifebouy yearning continuously for the good ole days and moaning about our lost values.

3.Accept the reality that its now a dollars and cents business, and move with the times. Adapt and get ahead of the game by predicting the future instead of living for the past.

To be blunt

IMHO, the average LFC supporter (and the club) has been doing 2. for far too long, and that, during a period (the 90s), that saw the biggest revolution in not just football but sport worldwide. It left us in its wake.  This is why, imho, we are where we are now. 

We cant handle change.

(I hope no one takes this personally. Theyre just general thoughts.)

Sack Parry.

Offline cornelius

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2005, 09:01:45 PM »
 

We cant handle change.

Wrong.

We can't handle David Beckham being a couple of quid behind Bill Gates and more front page headlines than the starving in Africa despite nothing that resembles an equal amount of talent.

We can't handle having to travel to Burnley on a Friday night and then having to come straight back.

We can't handle players who claim to be lifelong supporters of a club, being made a millionaire, being made Captain, being at one of the biggest clubs in the world, having won a few trophies and having a good 10 years left in him to win more and yet still that's not enough.

We can't handle having to set off at 5 or 6am to go to Yeovil/Southampton/Norwich etc.

We can't handle having to fork out half of our wages to sit with a load of jester hat, photo taking wankers who don't know the words to You'll Never Walk Alone.

Or as Jack Nicholson would put it we 'cant handle the truth'


Offline Byrnee

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2005, 09:14:13 PM »
Whilst I sympathise with the sentiments many are expressing, in particular John, I am not as concerned about what this says about Liverpool FC.

Yes, in 2001, we managed to get 4th and win 3 trophies.
But, we JUST made it to fourth.

Last season, we JUST made it to fourth winning NOTHING losing embarrasingly to the likes of Portsmouth, Bolton, Marseille and this after being denied Champions Legaue football the season earlier.

When I was chatting to my mates last night, they couldn't believe I said I'd rather finish 4th than win the FA Cup. My Evertonian mate said he'd choose the FA Cup every time. I understand that. But... it is not an enjoyable thing to admit, that we'd rather be 4th than win the FA Cup. Its not enjoyable to admit that we are in essence valuing Silver over Silverware.

However, there is a lot more to it than that. We cannot win the league witht the squad we have. Not a chance. We not bloody likely to win the Champios League with the squad we have.

So we need new players. Now, lets say we don't qualify for the Champins League, because Stevie breaks his leg at Turf Moor, and Baros pulls another Hammy against Bournemouth. We start to drop valuable league points, but progress through the competition. At the end of the season we win the FA Cup but finish 5th behind Everton, Boro or Spurs.

We Finish 5th, 40 points behind Chelsea.

Forget the money. Who's going to want to join us? Second-rate players. Young kids with potential. Not Proven Winners, like Morientes.

We need to make a mark in Europe for the best of the best to sit up and say I want to play for Liverpool. Of course some will take issue with that: The 'we're Liverpool for fucks sake, if a player only wnats to come here to paly in europe, they can fuck off.'

Well, Yes and No. I don't want anyone who isn't committed to playing in that Red shirt be it vs Bayern or Burnley.
But we have to be realistic. Campbell, Smith, Rooney... Gerrard? All these players want/ed to be playing for the best clubs in Europe. Not the most successful clubs, not the clubs with a glamorous past but the clubs with a glamorous future. They want to be challenging for the title. They want to face off against the AC's and Real's of the world. They want to be in that exclusive club.

We may not like it, but we have to face it. The likes of Emlyn and the rest the likes of players who would stay with a club through thick and thin are gone.

As are the days when we fans would let a manager go five seasons without winning anything.

We've won the FA Cup recently, it was fucking great. We won the UEFA Cup and League Cup, we've put our name back on the map.

We've got some of Europes best players. One of the Worlds best managers and we are set up to develop a side that could COULD COULD challenge for the title. Only if we get a team capable, and that means getting a SQUAD capable of winning the title. We don't have it at the moment. Risking damaging our good first XI (that's already damaged) would be reckless.

4th or FA Cup? This season 4th, every time.

I hope that changes. In a few seasons, I would hope when we play a 'rotated' side in this competition, it will still include top class Internationals and a couple of the brightest young talents around. Players who are part of a Championship Challenging squad.
Either that or as John says they make winning the Cup have a Champions League place. Or reducing the amount of places each league can have. Reducing the gap between the haves and the have nots. But at the moment, we have to go with the flow, we have to be a part of the financial elite or risk losing any chance to reclaim our glorious heritage - barring a takeover from one of Roman's chums, and money becomming no object.

With Rafa at the helm, seeing who is up to it and who isn't, seeing who can go and where we need strengthening, I believe we have a lot to look forward to.

It may be hard to deal with an embarrassig loss like this now, but we'll reap the rewards later.
'Liverpool was made for me and I was made for Liverpool.'
Bill Shankly


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At The End Of The Storm I

Offline john_mac

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2005, 09:33:52 PM »
That's the difference mate, I'm not arsed about finishing fourth, it doesn't excite me in any way like winning the FA Cup does. Yeah, I love Europe and, of course, I want Liverpool to be able to compete both financially and as a viable option for attracting players, but I'm sorry it isn;'t why I go the game. I go the game to have a ball, to enjoy myself, I'm a red, a scouser and I love it. But I love the great times and I'd rather have the weekend in Walezs and win the Carling Cup than finish fourth, it means more to me.

I'm not arsed about the glamour, I'm not arsed about all the fucken mixed up priorities of the club where the £££ signs rukle the roost. I don't love football for finishing fourth, its not what excites me.

Yeah we put weakened teams out in the League Cup, I love the League Cup but everybody would accept that it is different from the FA, Shankly didn't even want to enter it, and I have gone on record as saying that the best footballing moment of 2004 was winning with the kids at Spurs, but that's why it was so great. I just think the FA Cup is bigger than that.

Out of interest, is there anybody who bothered their arses travelling to Burnley twice who will defend the events of last night?

........................................just wondering.
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Offline Wendi

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2005, 09:43:58 PM »
All great points Vlad.

Im not an appologist for the way the game has gone. Merely a realist.

But unless you have a plan to take over football and do something about these things .....

....it still leaves you with 3 options.

And I still think option 2 is the worst of the lot.

Sack Parry.

Offline murgaz

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2005, 09:47:19 PM »
I agree with you about the obsession with 4th John. Is it a means to an end? If so and we use the Euro money to properly challange for the title then I suppose I can stomach it but my worry is that 4th becomes the end in itself and we start thinking it represents a good season. I remember me grandad saying why 65 meant more to him than anything because he honestly thought he'd never see us win the cup. My only ambition as a kid was to see us play in a cup final at Wembley

Offline ratcatcher

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2005, 09:53:03 PM »
1965, 1974, 1986, 1989, 1992, 2001

So what the fuck was that all about?

An absolute disgrace to see Liverpool Football Club treat the competition that Shankly described as both the greatest in the world and as the one which brought him his greatest day in football, with such disrespect.

It made me absolutely fucken sick to see what has become a money machine grind on, unintereted in what the competition had to offer and what it means to us. Where these bastards there when Michael broke Arsenal hearts? Did they see a broken hearted Aldridge after he became the first player to miss a pen in a final, do they know what it meant to bury the blues not once but twice, well its beyond me.

We treated both the competition and the opposition with a total lack of respect, total unworthy of what I know as Liverpool. In 2001 our chief executive boasted that Liverpool Football Club existed to win trophies maybe at the end of this season he will proudly boast that "Liverpool Football Club exists to finish fourth".

Do these pricks know what it means to go to Cardiff? Do they know what it means to win the Cup? Fucken doubt it.

I won't blame the kids, they have performed admirably, most notably at Spurs, but does the FA Cup really mean so little to us? Can we afford it to? Maybe a champions league place should be put on offer, had Millwall won it last season, they would have deserved it more than our poxy fourth. The FA cup means so much, the history, the tradition, the memories, everything about the competition. St John and Keegan made it for Shanks, Kenny's double and the second leg of Houlliers treble, to say nothing of the heartbreaks along the way, wonderful times at places as distant as Swansea, Carlisle and Norwich, to say nothing of beating the other crowd in semi's and finals.

Losing to the Superstore twice in finals was an absolute fucken killer, as was Mick bastard Mills's goal, and the fact that Paisley never lifted the trophy, what he'd make of last night god only knows. The four semi's against Arsenal and Terry Mac's goal at Spurs before battling our way the length of the sseven sisters to get home.

Has the FA Cup really been consigned to our memory? Does it really mean so little? 'Cos the other thing Liverpool Football Club showed no respect for last night was us, the stupid c*nts who line their pockets every week. Then again that's what we're there for, part of the money making machine that Liverpool Football Club has become in our haste to follow in the footsteps of the superstore down the other end of the Lancs.

Shankly decided to rebuild the team and replace his loyal players after an FA Cup defeat to lower division opposition, that's how much it meant to him. Maybe after last night debacle the time has come to call it a day and wipe our hands, Pontious Pilot style, of what the club has become.  I can't see myself or many others doing it, but let's be honest, it fucken stinks.

Another nail in the coffin of what once our club, it no longer fucken is.

Totally and utterly agree John. I bet moores choked on his after match drink last night if he remember his 'we exist to win trophies' speech.

Jeez I stood by Houllier through thick and thin and got loads of stick for it even though I could see the errors he was making. Last night was a gross error by Benitez to this club, the FA Cup (yeah arse and mancs may field weakened teams so does that mean we should follow?) but worst of all Burnley.

Hopefully, Benitez will learn from this and go forward.
These are my own opinions. They are not meant or intended as a criticism of anyone else's opinion just because they are different but if you can't see past that, then tough shit!

Offline Rushian

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2005, 09:55:22 PM »
The Glory of the Cups

These days there appears to be an opinion among many Liverpool fans that failure to qualify for the Champions League will render any season worthless. They feel that the cups pale into insignificance when compared to the race for one of the top four spots and the ultimate aim of the League title. This opinion even kept rearing its ugly head during the headlong adrenalin rush of 2001.


Now I'm one of the old school who believes all trophies are important. The "We-might-be-Champions League" (as it should be called) is an important competition don't get me wrong. Its primary purpose though is to generate money for the bigger clubs and was set-up by UEFA to prevent a breakaway European Superleague.

The game of football is not about money, though the press may suggest otherwise. It always was and always will be about GLORY. The winning of the Championship will remain the priority for LFC, our bread and butter as Shankly once said, but who are we to be churlish in denying the Glory that the cups bring?

Our roll of honour is long and distinguished - every cup won has been important. 2001 was a fantastic season with us battling in all 3 cups into May. Who will ever forget Roma away or Barcelona at home? The fantastic performance against Palace at Anfield or the nerve-shredding anxiety of the penalties in Cardiff? Jamie Carragher's sweetly struck winner so unexpected. Owen's double-barrelled dose of genius on a sunny Cardiff afternoon and the crazy, crazy night in Dortmund against the Boca-clad Alaves. "I am not English I am Scouse" as the Basques' slogan became. Great memories all.

The cut and thrust of the sword-fight provided by these knock-out games help sustain us through those long away trips in the league to the likes of Charlton, Middlesbrough and Southampton. Have some of our fans have forgotten how to enjoy football? Its simplicity, purity and sheer beauty thrills me still. Perhaps they over-analyse financial implications and weigh up big-name buys with alacrity.

Perhaps they have forgotten that if 11 dustmen, true and fair, beat Real Madrid in a game of football on a park pitch, the Glory is theirs. And the duty of every club must remain to compete to the best of their ability for every trophy they enter. The dignity of the club and the loyalty of the fans shouldn't be lightly cast-away.

So if you're currently ambivalent towards our run to the final of the so-called "Worthless Cup" remember, now is the time to enjoy football. Rejoice in the success. Drink a toast to the glorious pursuit of the cup, no matter how "small" you perceive it to be. And remember how lucky you are to support the Reds - there are many teams that haven't reached a final in half a century.

As the banner should have said: Red wine for my men - we seek Glory at dawn.

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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: 1965 and all
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2005, 10:39:21 PM »
One of the most passionate threads I've read in a long time.

I'm torn between John and Paul on this. Both arguments are obviously equally valid.

My opinion of the situation has fluctuated throughout the day. I don't accept that Benitez undervalued the competition - he obviously thought the kids could do the job. However, I don't agree with his decision to defend his choices.

Sadly, we as supporters are seemingly going to have to accept Liverpool Football Club are simply following the priorities of the modern game. The Fourth Place v FA Cup scenario has been taken out of proportion to some extent. A fella in work, understandably upset, said he would have preferred us beating Burnley than achieving the fourth place position some of us have already taken for granted. Sorry, a knee jerk reaction for me.

It is desperately dissapointing to be ejected from the competition so early, even sadder in the manner in which it happened.

But, come May - I don't understand anyone (in this financial day and age) who would relish another trip to Cardiff at the expense of fourth place and CL qualification. The implications would be catastrophic to the future of this club. I LOVE the FA Cup and I don't think Rafa or the club have devalued it. The tenuous situation at the club at the moment demands that we play to our strengths and concentrate on the realistic expectations for the short and long term future.

Final thing I would say is that straight from the off - Rafa clearly laid out his plan for the short term future.
Fourth place or higher was ALWAYS the priority. Amidst the decline of Newcastle, Everton amongst others have perhaps gatecrashed the party and made qualification more uncertain than last season (if that were possible). Man United and the FA treated the FA Cup with utter contempt a few seasons ago - we didn't.

Some of you may remember the Anfield Forever campaign, I only mention it because I would hate to be accused of "accepting" modern day football. I don't. But it's sink or swim innit? 1965 was a long time ago. Take a look at Chelsea - our supposed rivals for the bread and butter we've been starved of for so long. Nevermind 1965. 2001 now seems like a lifetime ago. We could and should have progressed after the treble but we didn't. An FA Cup final victory over Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal or whoever would not have progressed this club under a new manager in such a season of transition and injury turmoil.

I expect this thread to go on a bit longer, and so it should - it's a really difficult one. I'm happy in mind of how I feel about the above.

But it still feels strange.