Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Redley]

Who pays the referees to referee games overseas?

You’ve been told this already, but I’m sure there’s another thread you can ask again in

[decosabute]

That Tottenham match was stolen from us by the referees. Jones got a red for something marginal, a frame-up by the VAR. Then there is the Díaz goal. And in the end, even with 10 men, we were more dangerous. Then the quickfire two yellows for Jota. I've been watching football for 3 decades, and have never seen anything like that, not even in Serie A.
Sunday I was happy at 90 minutes that refereeing was kind of okay. After the match, I wasn't that angry this time. I believe that a team that has 115 financial charges against them and their owner jets PL referees to Dubai, can influence referees with money. What can we ever know of a numbered bank account in Dubai?
The problem is, a demoted City would damage the PL brand and every PL team would lose out with them. Even us.

I agree with the rest of your post (impossible not to really), but I don't understand what you mean with the bolded bit? Is it that City getting relegated for cheating would damage the product? Everybody who isn't on their payroll knows they're cheats - if they don't get punished properly despite obviously being guilty, then how much does that damage the product?

Even if it means voiding all the titles they've won (so no champion those years) and sending then down, then it's still better that the league would have done the right thing eventually, even if it means those years were tainted. Surely that's better than them continuing to play in the league, make up sponsors and continue to be competitive having earned none of it?

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your point.

[Eeyore]

Spot on.

When fans are arguing about how things like referee decisions or our lack of spending have screwed us over (both of which are debated ad nauseum on this site), then the sportswashers have achieved their goals.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the biggest factor (by a country mile) in our success under Jurgen is the existence of City. It really is that simple, and without them we'd have many more trophies, and probably have suffered far less injuries trying to hit 95 point seasons.

No amount of microanalysis over other small margins can tip the balance back in our favour, especially considering the gulf (no pun intended) in spending. But some people just have to find reasons we've been screwed over, instead of focusing on the giant blue elephant in the room. It's no surprise to see some posters hogging as much of the airtime on here as they do on debates about how much we spend. Both topics are controversial and inevitably have differences of opinion, but take City out of the equation and literally everything changes and matters far less. The marginal referee calls, or our net spend, or injuries, or Saturday 12.30 kickoffs, or any other points of scrutiny would've received far less focus and discussion during Jurgen's reign if City hadn't cheated their way to the trophies (whìch we'd have inevitably won considering the levels we've reached).

Every single fan of other clubs that I speak to thinks that decisions regularly go against them. It has always been thus in every sport throughout history. It's in a sports fan's DNA to feel hard done by when things go against them. Many fans actually think that we're the lucky ones and have benefitted from favourable decisions down the years. Who's right? Who's wrong? I'm sure there's a Tomkins equivalent for every club who writes about or compiles stats to show bias. I'm also sure threads like this exist on every fan site of every sport in the world.

Naturally as a fan base, we'll be more skeptical because of our inherent distrust of the people in power such as the government, police, and justice system, plus the wider context of a corrupt world and a litany of sporting scandals down the years from football to cycling to athletics.

If during the course of City's 115 charges investigation it transpires there's also evidence of payments to referees or some other form of systemic corruption, then some on here may be proven right. But for me it looks like widespread incompetence plus some occasional bias rather than anything more sinister. I'm not defending the officials, as I think they're mostly shite and the whole organisation needs binning and starting again (the league deserves far better). But we see really bad decisions go against many different clubs week in, week out, and VAR certainly hasn't fixed all the problems it was designed for. So if there's anything corrupt, it's the fact that the so called Best League in the World^TM can still be officiated by such a poor standard of match officials, and that so many mistakes still get made every single week.

Spectacularly missing the point as usual.

We knew City were cheating because the numbers were implausible. The data was off the scale. They posted completely implausible commercial deals. Including a completely outlandish Stadium naming rights deal. They post attendances that are way above what the eye test shows.

They posted transfer fees and wages that were quite simply improbable. It was the data that set the alarm bells ringing.

We get similar outlandish data for Liverpool and refereeing decisions but instead of following the numbers. Instead, we get excuse after excuse. It is quite frankly getting to the stage where it is becoming embarrassing. Man City don't need Lord Pannick KC they just need useful idiots making excuses for them.

Overestimating Commercial deals was just human error. Stating attendances way over the number of people who actually attended was a mistake. Accidentally paying players and managers off the books was merely an oversight. I mean anyone could accidentally put £50m in the account of Alf-Inge Haaland instead of Erling.

Gifting Ped's brother a share of Girona was just a slip of the pen. I can't believe people are accusing Man City's owners of impropriety. As far as I can see it is just widespread incompetence. 

[Yorkykopite]

The current constituency consists of the Humberhead Peatlands Nature Reserve in the north and northeast, through Branton, Auckley, and Rossington.

Sorry, I did forget that, you're right. Good detail.

So I guess that means that Michael Oliver was part of the plot after all.

[Eeyore]

Sorry, I did forget that, you're right. Good detail.

So I guess that means that Michael Oliver was part of the plot after all.

You don't like having your pomposity pricked, do you?

You posted facts that turned out to be alternative facts and now have gone full Trump. You were wrong about the number of Sheffield constituencies. You were wrong about Doncaster constituencies voting Conservative. Just own it instead of doubling down.

You were wrong about mining communities being the Red Wall. Instead of owning your mistakes. You shout conspiracy. 

Stop making excuses for the PGMOL and let the data speak for itself. 

[Yorkykopite]

You don't like having your pomposity pricked, do you?

No, fair play. You'll sleep well tonight Eeyore. Dreaming of the village of Rossington, no doubt. This is where you begin your comeback.

[ianburns252]

People are entitled to their opinions, but generally I'm also surprised how much some are trying to defend what's increasingly become indefensible. I think some are trying to show that they're above conspiracist thinking and "sane" by defending some of the refereeing.

But even if you take the view that there isn't any funny business going on, it's simply inarguable that the number of absolutely mental decisions (including non-decisions) is astounding, as is the insane conflict of interest with the likes of Oliver, England and co. going to ref in UAE. Those are factually enormous problems, and the latter really is incredibly questionable looking to me.

Think your 2nd paragraph is where I am up to with it - and call it naivety, burying my head, or just good old fashioned misplaced faith in humans - where I can't quite bring myself to believe there is an active effort to favour City or hinder us but I think there is a passive one shaped by media narrative, attempts to overcorrect (19 teams think Liverpool get more decisions vs 1 team who believe we suffer more than we gain - well 19 can't be wrong, can they?!), and an element of general incompetence.

Within my industry we have to declare and gifts from clients (and generally reject any over £100 without partner approval), and to act on behalf of anyone we must make a declaration that we have no interests in their company, nor do our immediate family, that we have not engaged in any work for them within a certain time frame, and a few other bits that might cause conflict but I won't bore you with it.

Personally, I have no issue with referees taking work abroad but under 2 conditions - 1) PGMOL must approve this work prior to them undertaking it and amounts paid for it must be declared to PGMOL also; 2) for the remainder of the season you cannot referee, AR, or VAR matches where there might be a conflict of interest - how this is proven I don't know as could someone reffing in the US come under influence of Bohley? Maybe... but something clear cut such as Abu Dhabi or Saudi should not be hard to evidence.

When this thread first popped up I will say I was in agreement with it - again I don't like the idea that the Prem could be so corrupt - but every passing week there is something that chips away at the certainty I had that all was above reproach and no whilst I am not entirely in the camp of "they are out of get us" at a bare minimum I believe that they are being less than honest at times (if not in game them certainly when trying to cover themselves for having made errors) and there are fundamental failings within the system that need root and branch reform.

[Eeyore]

No, fair play. You'll sleep well tonight Eeyore. Dreaming of the village of Rossington, no doubt. This is where you begin your comeback.

Would that be Rossington the former mining village that is in the Metropolitan borough of Doncaster and whose MP is a Conservative?

Surely not. I mean your facts were that Doncaster had no Tory MP's. You also stated that if there was bias then the towns and Cities that had mining communities would have been treated the same as Liverpool.

The clear difference is that Liverpool supporters sing Fuck the Tories. The red wall which are almost all mining communities actually vote for the Tories. I wonder why the establishment treats Liverpool and ex-mining communities who vote Tory differently.

[Eeyore]

Think your 2nd paragraph is where I am up to with it - and call it naivety, burying my head, or just good old fashioned misplaced faith in humans - where I can't quite bring myself to believe there is an active effort to favour City or hinder us but I think there is a passive one shaped by media narrative, attempts to overcorrect (19 teams think Liverpool get more decisions vs 1 team who believe we suffer more than we gain - well 19 can't be wrong, can they?!), and an element of general incompetence.

Within my industry we have to declare and gifts from clients (and generally reject any over £100 without partner approval), and to act on behalf of anyone we must make a declaration that we have no interests in their company, nor do our immediate family, that we have not engaged in any work for them within a certain time frame, and a few other bits that might cause conflict but I won't bore you with it.

Personally, I have no issue with referees taking work abroad but under 2 conditions - 1) PGMOL must approve this work prior to them undertaking it and amounts paid for it must be declared to PGMOL also; 2) for the remainder of the season you cannot referee, AR, or VAR matches where there might be a conflict of interest - how this is proven I don't know as could someone reffing in the US come under influence of Bohley? Maybe... but something clear cut such as Abu Dhabi or Saudi should not be hard to evidence.

When this thread first popped up I will say I was in agreement with it - again I don't like the idea that the Prem could be so corrupt - but every passing week there is something that chips away at the certainty I had that all was above reproach and no whilst I am not entirely in the camp of "they are out of get us" at a bare minimum I believe that they are being less than honest at times (if not in game them certainly when trying to cover themselves for having made errors) and there are fundamental failings within the system that need root and branch reform.

Rules are put in place so that you have to register gifts over a certain value precisely because the individual is the weakest link in any corporate policy. To be blunt gifts or bribes happen because the initial outlay is recouped many times over.

To think that referees who work for far lower wages than the players they officiate aren't the weakest link in the World of Football is bizarre. That is why the PGMOL should have extremely robust rules that deter their officials from being targeted.

[ianburns252]

Rules are put in place so that you have to register gifts over a certain value precisely because the individual is the weakest link in any corporate policy. To be blunt gifts or bribes happen because the initial outlay is recouped many times over.

To think that referees who work for far lower wages than the players they officiate aren't the weakest link in the World of Football is bizarre. That is why the PGMOL should have extremely robust rules that deter their officials from being targeted.

Agreed to both and that was the crux of what I was trying to get at with my suggestion of declaring any work done that might conflict with independence in games - if PGMOL want to be taken seriously as a governing body these are the minimum independence requirements they should have for precisely the reason you state

Apologies if I have misread your tone btw - written word innit, so if you were just agreeing with me and building on it then great, if you thought I was trying to defend then hopefully I've clarified

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Sixty nine pages of bollocks.

[Eeyore]

Agreed to both and that was the crux of what I was trying to get at with my suggestion of declaring any work done that might conflict with independence in games - if PGMOL want to be taken seriously as a governing body these are the minimum independence requirements they should have for precisely the reason you state

Apologies if I have misread your tone btw - written word innit, so if you were just agreeing with me and building on it then great, if you thought I was trying to defend then hopefully I've clarified

No I agree completely.

For me, one of the biggest issues is how governing bodies set up private companies like the PGMOL or for that matter ACPO that somehow operate without corporate governance. But also manage to operate without the standard rules that government bodies adhere to.

So the PGMOL has no corporate governance but also is outside the remit of Freedom Of Information requests. Yet certain posters absolutely deny any possibility of corruption. 

[Historical Fool]

You’ve been told this already, but I’m sure there’s another thread you can ask again in

No ive been told Abu Dhabi, and reportedly - so I was wondering if anyone here has the report that mentioned it. Who are you again?

[afc tukrish]

You don't like having your pomposity pricked, do you?

You are calling someone else pompous?

Possibly the most spectacularly hypocritical slur ever cast on these boards...

[Son of Spion]

Sixty nine pages of bollocks.

What kind of magazines are you looking at?

 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

What kind of magazines are you looking at?

 

 

[Eeyore]

You are calling someone else pompous?

Possibly the most spectacularly hypocritical slur ever cast on these boards...

If I come across as pompous then I apologise.

[newterp]

Sixty nine pages of bollocks.

Usually bollocks are involved, yes.

[ianburns252]

No I agree completely.

For me, one of the biggest issues is how governing bodies set up private companies like the PGMOL or for that matter ACPO that somehow operate without corporate governance. But also manage to operate without the standard rules that government bodies adhere to.

So the PGMOL has no corporate governance but also is outside the remit of Freedom Of Information requests. Yet certain posters absolutely deny any possibility of corruption.

Cool - I find it tough detecting tone with written so just wanted to double check.

Thing is that the behaviour of closing ranks and protecting your own isn't unreasonable as a human reaction - just look at how the city has many times come together for those who couldn't over the years...but that is not and never should be how these bodies do things as they only work and have legitimacy if they have transparency and the faith of the public in them.

I have a lot of time for Yorky, Fitzy, Knight, Alonsoisared and many of the others who are on the other side of the divide and personally I think they are arguing in good faith and are making coherent arguments although I have moved across from their side to an extent - I read it as them not saying it is impossible but more improbable and generally leaning on the side of incompetence which extends to PGMOL being unable to organise a piss up in a brewery

The anger felt by the fanbase though is undeniable and justified and just because I don't feel as strong on it doesn't mean I'll deny someone else's right to be that angry but I do think those who I have mentioned get a bit of a beating too - we are all on the same side!

[Eeyore]

Cool - I find it tough detecting tone with written so just wanted to double check.

Thing is that the behaviour of closing ranks and protecting your own isn't unreasonable as a human reaction - just look at how the city has many times come together for those who couldn't over the years...but that is not and never should be how these bodies do things as they only work and have legitimacy if they have transparency and the faith of the public in them.

I have a lot of time for Yorky, Fitzy, Knight, Alonsoisared and many of the others who are on the other side of the divide and personally I think they are arguing in good faith and are making coherent arguments although I have moved across from their side to an extent - I read it as them not saying it is impossible but more improbable and generally leaning on the side of incompetence which extends to PGMOL being unable to organise a piss up in a brewery

The anger felt by the fanbase though is undeniable and justified and just because I don't feel as strong on it doesn't mean I'll deny someone else's right to be that angry but I do think those who I have mentioned get a bit of a beating too - we are all on the same side!

Not so long ago I was on the other side.

I used to dismiss the posters who shouted conspiracy when things didn't go our way. The thing is my background is in a field that uses data. When the unexpected happens then you dismiss it as variance. If you have a small data sample then you will get outliers. That makes absolute sense to me.

However when you get into Mo Salah being an absolute outlier after 240 League games then you simply have to dig deeper. That isn't variance. Quite simply there has to be something skewing the data. Yorky who I think is a really good poster dismisses it as Salah being too honest. The thing is being perceived as honest is like a see-saw sooner or later the perception that you are honest will tip the see-saw and you will get more  and more decisions.

Then we get to the other main excuse 'incompetence'. Again if you have a small sample then variance could mean you spend a period when the incompetent decisions go against you. When you have someone like Tomkins doing deep data on 1200 Liverpool games then variance isn't a factor. When every data sample shows you are disadvantaged then there are other factors at play.

Yorky would love to pretend that asking why the data is skewed is the same as propagating tin foil hat conspiracies that involve fanciful conspiratores. That isn't the question we are asking. What we are asking is why there aren't referees skewing the data in our favour.

There are only two options data that show referees who are close to the norm and referees who are massive outliers against us. 

[ianburns252]

Not so long ago I was on the other side.

I used to dismiss the posters who shouted conspiracy when things didn't go our way. The thing is my background is in a field that uses data. When the unexpected happens then you dismiss it as variance. If you have a small data sample then you will get outliers. That makes absolute sense to me.

However when you get into Mo Salah being an absolute outlier after 240 League games then you simply have to dig deeper. That isn't variance. Quite simply there has to be something skewing the data. Yorky who I think is a really good poster dismisses it as Salah being too honest. The thing is being perceived as honest is like a see-saw sooner or later the perception that you are honest will tip the see-saw and you will get more  and more decisions.

Then we get to the other main excuse 'incompetence'. Again if you have a small sample then variance could mean you spend a period when the incompetent decisions go against you. When you have someone like Tomkins doing deep data on 1200 Liverpool games then variance isn't a factor. When every data sample shows you are disadvantaged then there are other factors at play.

Yorky would love to pretend that asking why the data is skewed is the same as propagating tin foil hat conspiracies that involve fanciful conspiratores. That isn't the question we are asking. What we are asking is why there aren't referees skewing the data in our favour.

There are only two options data that show referees who are close to the norm and referees who are massive outliers against us.

Similar to me with my background in audit - we look for controls and implementation of process to support the figures and where controls are lacking or not working your first port of call is to ask why.

Observing the games is like a transaction test and if transaction after transaction doesn't match the expectation (or ref decision after ref decision) then you have to ask management how they plan to fix it.

If they don't fix it after the issue being evidenced over and over it indicates that those charged with governance don't have an interest in correcting the problem and you then have to conclude that they are trying to mislead rather than making a genuine error

[9 kemlyn road]

Would that be Rossington the former mining village that is in the Metropolitan borough of Doncaster and whose MP is a Conservative?

Surely not. I mean your facts were that Doncaster had no Tory MP's. You also stated that if there was bias then the towns and Cities that had mining communities would have been treated the same as Liverpool.

The clear difference is that Liverpool supporters sing Fuck the Tories. The red wall which are almost all mining communities actually vote for the Tories. I wonder why the establishment treats Liverpool and ex-mining communities who vote Tory differently.

Rossington and other pit villages in that Doncaster area like Hatfield,armthorpe,brodsworth were absolutely staunch pro strike places in 84 ,fought till the last until the end in march 85 .but once it was over there pits and communities were laid waste ,the tories  and the establishment wreaked their spiteful revenge and it was over ,they were beaten and no longer a threat ,they’d been dealt with.
Depressingly 30 years later these same striking men and there family’s were voting in their droves for brexit to take us out the EU,the very organisation that poured money into those areas to get them back on their feet.three years after the brexit vote the same region voted for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and the tories in the don valley constituency.after all they fought for ,the hardships they went through was completely forgotten and they bought the lies hook line and sinker .defeat was complete ,they were tories now.
Liverpool on the other hand didn’t bow down.when thatcher turned her guns on the city in the early 80s and Geoffrey howes “managed decline “ of Liverpool statement ,Liverpool fought back to the point were now the city is unrecognisable from those dark days of the 80s .tourists flock there it’s a place people know and recognise all over the world all this despite the anti Liverpool proganda that was rife in the media and the pushing of the negative stereotypes of the city and its people.
There is no bias towards ex mining communities as they were dealt with ,Beaten.Liverpool the city and its people were never beaten . For me that’s the difference.Liverpool are seen as a threat to the establishment,booing the national anthem for me is symbolic of the “fuck you “ attitude to the establishment by scousers .so the bias is there in all forms still right down to some bald headed ,middle aged referees and their inability to do their job properly because of,in my opinion their bias against the club.
Until Liverpool the city are tamed and become like those ex mining areas then the club will continue to suffer these bad decisions week after week.

[Yorkykopite]

I hope you've been hacked or you are a total piece of fucking shite.

I know that was posted at 3 in the morning, which might be an explanation. But what did I say?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I know that was posted at 3 in the morning, which might be an explanation. But what did I say?

Yeah I read it wrong.. Sorry about that.

[Redley]

Personally, I have no issue with referees taking work abroad but under 2 conditions - 1) PGMOL must approve this work prior to them undertaking it and amounts paid for it must be declared to PGMOL also; 2) for the remainder of the season you cannot referee, AR, or VAR matches where there might be a conflict of interest - how this is proven I don't know as could someone reffing in the US come under influence of Bohley? Maybe... but something clear cut such as Abu Dhabi or Saudi should not be hard to evidence.

This works to an extent, but then the conflict of interest surely depends on how a team is doing. In which case...you can't really call it beforehand, can you? We're in a three team title race so in terms of working in the UAE for Citys owners you'd surely have to take them off all of ours, Citys and Arsenals games to avoid any conflict of interest there. But then what if they get invited to do some work in Saudi Arabia, and Newcastle are involved in a 6 team battle to finish 5th and get the last CL spot? Thats potentially more than half of the games every week that they shouldn't really be involved in.

It just shouldn't be happening. Maybe a solution would be to pay them more and just say under no circumstance do you work anywhere else, but then right now its hard to justify them getting a pay rise cos they're well....shit. And its hard to imagine Howard Webb, former head of Saudi Arabian referees, agreeing that it shouldn't be a thing. Not that he's immune to being a massive hypocrite.

I do know that if one of them was invited over to Boston to be a special guest referee for the Red Sox and then came back and reffed a Man City game three days later and made an 'honest error' that absolutely screwed them over, it'd be front page news for about a week.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What kind of magazines are you looking at?

 

[Yorkykopite]

Yeah I read it wrong.. Sorry about that.

The dangers of the skim read Andy!

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Think your 2nd paragraph is where I am up to with it - and call it naivety, burying my head, or just good old fashioned misplaced faith in humans - where I can't quite bring myself to believe there is an active effort to favour City or hinder us but I think there is a passive one shaped by media narrative, attempts to overcorrect (19 teams think Liverpool get more decisions vs 1 team who believe we suffer more than we gain - well 19 can't be wrong, can they?!), and an element of general incompetence.

Within my industry we have to declare and gifts from clients (and generally reject any over £100 without partner approval), and to act on behalf of anyone we must make a declaration that we have no interests in their company, nor do our immediate family, that we have not engaged in any work for them within a certain time frame, and a few other bits that might cause conflict but I won't bore you with it.

Personally, I have no issue with referees taking work abroad but under 2 conditions - 1) PGMOL must approve this work prior to them undertaking it and amounts paid for it must be declared to PGMOL also; 2) for the remainder of the season you cannot referee, AR, or VAR matches where there might be a conflict of interest - how this is proven I don't know as could someone reffing in the US come under influence of Bohley? Maybe... but something clear cut such as Abu Dhabi or Saudi should not be hard to evidence.

When this thread first popped up I will say I was in agreement with it - again I don't like the idea that the Prem could be so corrupt - but every passing week there is something that chips away at the certainty I had that all was above reproach and no whilst I am not entirely in the camp of "they are out of get us" at a bare minimum I believe that they are being less than honest at times (if not in game them certainly when trying to cover themselves for having made errors) and there are fundamental failings within the system that need root and branch reform.

Pretty much where I am Ian. Like you I operate in a sector with clear COI guidelines and cannot believe an organisation like PGMOL, with their potential to influence outcomes, does not have clear, enforced COI policies which are open to external audit. As well as clear transparent policies around performance of its employees.

If the above are in place lots of this discussion goes away. We all expect mistakes, but we also expect an even spread - it certainly “has not evened itself out” when it comes to huge match defining decisions. Despite many pundit/journo attempts to make it appear so.

[Eeyore]

Rossington and other pit villages in that Doncaster area like Hatfield,armthorpe,brodsworth were absolutely staunch pro strike places in 84 ,fought till the last until the end in march 85 .but once it was over there pits and communities were laid waste ,the tories  and the establishment wreaked their spiteful revenge and it was over ,they were beaten and no longer a threat ,they’d been dealt with.
Depressingly 30 years later these same striking men and there family’s were voting in their droves for brexit to take us out the EU,the very organisation that poured money into those areas to get them back on their feet.three years after the brexit vote the same region voted for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and the tories in the don valley constituency.after all they fought for ,the hardships they went through was completely forgotten and they bought the lies hook line and sinker .defeat was complete ,they were tories now.
Liverpool on the other hand didn’t bow down.when thatcher turned her guns on the city in the early 80s and Geoffrey howes “managed decline “ of Liverpool statement ,Liverpool fought back to the point were now the city is unrecognisable from those dark days of the 80s .tourists flock there it’s a place people know and recognise all over the world all this despite the anti Liverpool proganda that was rife in the media and the pushing of the negative stereotypes of the city and its people.
There is no bias towards ex mining communities as they were dealt with ,Beaten.Liverpool the city and its people were never beaten . For me that’s the difference.Liverpool are seen as a threat to the establishment,booing the national anthem for me is symbolic of the “fuck you “ attitude to the establishment by scousers .so the bias is there in all forms still right down to some bald headed ,middle aged referees and their inability to do their job properly because of,in my opinion their bias against the club.
Until Liverpool the city are tamed and become like those ex mining areas then the club will continue to suffer these bad decisions week after week.

Absolutely spot on. Great Post.

Divide and conquer doesn't work with us and that is why the establishment dislikes us.

[9 kemlyn road]

Absolutely spot on. Great Post.

Divide and conquer doesn't work with us and that is why the establishment dislikes us.

Divide and conquer is the go to tactic in the establishments way of dealing with a perceived enemy.once they achieve this the job is 50 per cent easier then it’s pull out that other ace up the sleeve ..the media.
Get Murdochs and dacres rags to print as much shit as they can about said enemy everyday so white van man can take it as fact and all the gammons reading the mail and express can get enraged .fill the bbc with tories and and away you go.anti Liverpool ,scouse stereo types by the bucket.
Want a comedy ,Carla lanes got one ,it’s called bread ,about a bunch of lazy ,scrounging…you know it.
Need a dodgy untrustworthy character in a drama then guess where he’s from.
And so on and on.
All this has been seeping into the national mind for over 40 years ,that’s the perception people were told to believe about Merseyside and it’s people and the country embraced it .I’m not a scouser but I’ve heard everything negative there is to say about Liverpool and it’s people by idiots who had never been there and it’s reflective of the country as a whole unfortunately.
I started going to anfield in the late 70s as a teenager and the decline in the city had started and thatcher wasn’t even prime minister at that point .i found it a fascinating place as the older people I went with would go into the city and the pubs and I met locals who heard our accents and would chat to us all friendly and it was an eye opener as generally anywhere else you had to keep a low profile etc as was the way with football in those days.I was hooked though ,once the scouse negativity started in the following years I knew differently,I loved the place and the people ,they were special and tough .I’ve sang Liverpools praises and challenged every negative comment made to me about it and in some cases got through.non Liverpool fans went with me to the game because they wanted to stand on the most famous football terrace in the world and loved it and agreed it was different,special.
I know loads of people who regularly go to the city for a weekend and love the nightlife ,the atmosphere of the place not one of them has ever said it was crap ,they love it.
The media though is still doing its best to perpetuate the myths and in the football side of things ,it’s sky ,BT ,talkshite and the rest .everyone of them completely anti LFC .Neville is given a platform to spout as much shit about us as he can and the public believe him .and so the bias goes on with the pgmol being the standard bearers now .
A level playing field is all we ask but with these same refs on the Abu Dhabi gravy train …I don’t think so.
Definitely on the pay roll and certainly have that in mind when reffing us and the big calls like the doku ,Mac allister challenge.in my humble opinion they are influenced by their biases .if I was a ref ,I’d fuck Utd and city over everytime but then luckily for them I’m not a ref but they are ,supposedly professional …nah ..they’re not that far different from me

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Given it's Brookes 'refereeing' the game on Sunday, I think this thread will likely get a massive boost come Sunday night.

But.

Here's hoping he'll do an honest and good job and football will win.

[Eeyore]

Divide and conquer is the go to tactic in the establishments way of dealing with a perceived enemy.once they achieve this the job is 50 per cent easier then it’s pull out that other ace up the sleeve ..the media.
Get Murdochs and dacres rags to print as much shit as they can about said enemy everyday so white van man can take it as fact and all the gammons reading the mail and express can get enraged .fill the bbc with tories and and away you go.anti Liverpool ,scouse stereo types by the bucket.
Want a comedy ,Carla lanes got one ,it’s called bread ,about a bunch of lazy ,scrounging…you know it.
Need a dodgy untrustworthy character in a drama then guess where he’s from.
And so on and on.
All this has been seeping into the national mind for over 40 years ,that’s the perception people were told to believe about Merseyside and it’s people and the country embraced it .I’m not a scouser but I’ve heard everything negative there is to say about Liverpool and it’s people by idiots who had never been there and it’s reflective of the country as a whole unfortunately.
I started going to anfield in the late 70s as a teenager and the decline in the city had started and thatcher wasn’t even prime minister at that point .i found it a fascinating place as the older people I went with would go into the city and the pubs and I met locals who heard our accents and would chat to us all friendly and it was an eye opener as generally anywhere else you had to keep a low profile etc as was the way with football in those days.I was hooked though ,once the scouse negativity started in the following years I knew differently,I loved the place and the people ,they were special and tough .I’ve sang Liverpools praises and challenged every negative comment made to me about it and in some cases got through.non Liverpool fans went with me to the game because they wanted to stand on the most famous football terrace in the world and loved it and agreed it was different,special.
I know loads of people who regularly go to the city for a weekend and love the nightlife ,the atmosphere of the place not one of them has ever said it was crap ,they love it.
The media though is still doing its best to perpetuate the myths and in the football side of things ,it’s sky ,BT ,talkshite and the rest .everyone of them completely anti LFC .Neville is given a platform to spout as much shit about us as he can and the public believe him .and so the bias goes on with the pgmol being the standard bearers now .
A level playing field is all we ask but with these same refs on the Abu Dhabi gravy train …I don’t think so.
Definitely on the pay roll and certainly have that in mind when reffing us and the big calls like the doku ,Mac allister challenge.in my humble opinion they are influenced by their biases .if I was a ref ,I’d fuck Utd and city over everytime but then luckily for them I’m not a ref but they are ,supposedly professional …nah ..they’re not that far different from me

Spot on again.

The establishment has already divided the traditional labour areas. As evidenced by former pit village areas now singing feed the scousers. Whilst voting Tory.

[Eeyore]

Given it's Brookes 'refereeing' the game on Sunday, I think this thread will likely get a massive boost come Sunday night.

But.

Here's hoping he'll do an honest and good job and football will win.

Brooks is a perfect example of a homer. A referee deemed not strong enough to referee us at Anfield. Sunday will be his 6th game as a referee of a Liverpool game with five of them being away.

Crazy how he is deemed strong enough to do an FA Cup game between us and United at Old Trafford but can't be trusted to referee at Anfield.

[Lee1-6Liv]

Brooks is a perfect example of a homer. A referee deemed not strong enough to referee us at Anfield. Sunday will be his 6th game as a referee of a Liverpool game with five of them being away.

Crazy how he is deemed strong enough to do an FA Cup game between us and United at Old Trafford but can't be trusted to referee at Anfield.

And that home game was Villa last year where the boot to Gakpo's chest was deemed only a yellow and we had a goal disallowed for an offside when the Villa player tried to clear it but after a review Brooks said the clearance was unintentional. So he is a homer only when not reffing us at home.

[Eeyore]

And that home game was Villa last year where the boot to Gakpo's chest was deemed only a yellow and we had a goal disallowed for an offside when the Villa player tried to clear it but after a review Brooks said the clearance was unintentional. So he is a homer only when not reffing us at home.

It is almost as if there is a preconception that you have to treat Liverpool at Anfield differently.

[9 kemlyn road]

Spot on again.

The establishment has already divided the traditional labour areas. As evidenced by former pit village areas now singing feed the scousers. Whilst voting Tory.

And the irony of them singing that is that during the strike one of the best areas for their generosity in fundraising for the strike fund in helping to feed the miners and their families was of course ..Merseyside.something i witnessed first hand when I managed to get a couple of games in that 84-85 season courtesy of my then girlfriend,now wife .
Seeing fund raisers going round the pubs before the game with the buckets with dig deep for the miners stickers all over them and standing outside the turnstiles collecting and people giving what they could when the city was on its arse itself.
All I can say in defence of the knobheads from the mining towns/ areas that sing that shite is that the majority werent even born and those that was were too young to remember so don’t care .
Just chant scabs scabs back at them ,they’ll know what that means   

[Golyo]

I agree with the rest of your post (impossible not to really), but I don't understand what you mean with the bolded bit? Is it that City getting relegated for cheating would damage the product? Everybody who isn't on their payroll knows they're cheats - if they don't get punished properly despite obviously being guilty, then how much does that damage the product?

Even if it means voiding all the titles they've won (so no champion those years) and sending then down, then it's still better that the league would have done the right thing eventually, even if it means those years were tainted. Surely that's better than them continuing to play in the league, make up sponsors and continue to be competitive having earned none of it?

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your point.

There is no misunderstanding. I think any outcome that sees City demoted will make our owners lose a lot of money in club evaluation. I would be happy as hell. Like most of us from here. But the money men, that own the club might feel differently.
There is a pre and post-Calciopoli Serie A. It has not recovered its worldwide fanbase since.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

There is no misunderstanding. I think any outcome that sees City demoted will make our owners lose a lot of money in club evaluation. I would be happy as hell. Like most of us from here. But the money men, that own the club might feel differently.
There is a pre and post-Calciopoli Serie A. It has not recovered its worldwide fanbase since.

Do you actually think that the PL gets more because of City being in it ?

[farawayred]

Do you actually think that the PL gets more because of City being in it ?

Of course they do. And they are branding it left, right and center. You'd wander about the narrative on Sly or Beeb, but it's all part of the same brand name promotion.

[kavah]

Rossington and other pit villages in that Doncaster area like Hatfield,armthorpe,brodsworth were absolutely staunch pro strike places in 84 ,fought till the last until the end in march 85 .but once it was over there pits and communities were laid waste ,the tories  and the establishment wreaked their spiteful revenge and it was over ,they were beaten and no longer a threat ,they’d been dealt with.
Depressingly 30 years later these same striking men and there family’s were voting in their droves for brexit to take us out the EU,the very organisation that poured money into those areas to get them back on their feet.three years after the brexit vote the same region voted for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and the tories in the don valley constituency.after all they fought for ,the hardships they went through was completely forgotten and they bought the lies hook line and sinker .defeat was complete ,they were tories now.
Liverpool on the other hand didn’t bow down.when thatcher turned her guns on the city in the early 80s and Geoffrey howes “managed decline “ of Liverpool statement ,Liverpool fought back to the point were now the city is unrecognisable from those dark days of the 80s .tourists flock there it’s a place people know and recognise all over the world all this despite the anti Liverpool proganda that was rife in the media and the pushing of the negative stereotypes of the city and its people.
There is no bias towards ex mining communities as they were dealt with ,Beaten.Liverpool the city and its people were never beaten . For me that’s the difference.Liverpool are seen as a threat to the establishment,booing the national anthem for me is symbolic of the “fuck you “ attitude to the establishment by scousers .so the bias is there in all forms still right down to some bald headed ,middle aged referees and their inability to do their job properly because of,in my opinion their bias against the club.
Until Liverpool the city are tamed and become like those ex mining areas then the club will continue to suffer these bad decisions week after week.

Great post