Topic: UK General Election - CLACTON

[Schmidt]

Even if you don't think Starmer is good enough, at least he won't be trying to keep the likes of Braverman and Rees-Mogg on side if he gets into power.

[Lisan Al Gaib]

https://www.clpd.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Keir-Starmers-10-Pledges.pdf

Thank you.

There's absolutely no way you can say that he's dropped every single one of those until you've seen the manifesto. Saying otherwise right now is just bluster. Maybe some will be watered down but you've got to be pragmatic about that and realise that the country is in a much, much worse state in pretty much every department than it was when these pledges were made.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Always the voice of restraint.

Quite 

Yes because you've always been synonymous with restraint.

[Draex]

On that though, OF, you've said "Things change, it's politics" but you've blasted one side of the argument for it and defended another. Surely you can see the argument that this could be seen as hypocritical?

I'm looking at the pledges that Starmer's made before being made Labour leader and the position he's currently in and it does feel like two different prime ministerial candidates. I personally think it's absolutely fair to have misgivings about the direction he's taken himself and the likely direction of the party in a leadership role.  I guess where I may differ to some is that I'm (slightly begrudgingly) accepting the compromises that have been made so that the country switches from Tory to Labour leadership, but I think it's fine to point out the changes made if we're castigating one side for similar.

The torys have absolutely gutted the economy for their own greedy means for years, the first thing your manifest must do is fiscally stand up.

I to am disappointed he's had to reduce/remove some of his pledges but I totally understand why, its going to take years to get us to a stable position again and then hopefully we can start to see some of the more social type ones come back.

[So… Howard Philips]

Do people really think that bore in the Labour party will be any different.

Man is a clown

Is Galloway the alternative?

[Red Beret]

It will be nice to have a calm and cold prime minister.

Maggie? She's even more calm and cold than she was 40 years ago.


Just joking! I know there's a big difference between having someone who can be dispassionate and objective and an utter sociopath who is immune to the suffering they are inflicting.

But this will be part of the battle Starmer faces. People might not find him relatable. They seem to see him as a bit of a cold fish - capable but perhaps lacking warmth. The problem is that he may come across as indifferent when making tough choices - and he will need to make a lot of those.

Fwiw, I don't think Starmer took the decision to ditch any of his pledges lightly. Tories pick and drop pledges faster than they change their undies. I think Starmer is just being pragmatic and knows he's up against a hostile media. He has to thread the needle and and is treading a fine line between what he wants to do and what he thinks he can do. And he's human, so he's going to make mistakes on that.

It's inevitable that supporters will be pissed off when they feel he's not doing what they think he should. Pretty much how any armchair manager views a footie game.

On the plus side, a surge in Labour MPs will hopefully present us with a lot of new up and coming talent that can help address the brain drain that's occurred in Parliament over the last 14 years. It could be the next Labour leader is elected on July 4th - or the one after anyway.

[So… Howard Philips]

What were the pledges? Genuine question, not being obtuse

Wes Streeting has had time to learn them.

Ask him.

[Dr. Beaker]

The most satisfying way to deal with a Tory canvasser - which I've only once been able to manage - is to pretend you are more right wing, more bigoted, more nationalistic than they are. You can soon bring them round to agreeing with the most extreme statements. "I'd castrate all criminals, re-open the Workhouses, and transport climate activists to the Antarctic" is almost guaranteed to bring out "Yes, we would too, but Conservatives just have to be a little careful of saying these things out loud. Political correctness, you know."

Ultimately you want to keep them talking for as long as possible and waste as much of their day as you can. I used to try and tell them that I had voted tory all my life, but not this time. However my accent was a bit of a giveaway. I had my Labour candidate around the other day and I sent her packing. I told her not to waste her time on me but to go looking for potential converts. I also told her of my above tactics, she went away delighted!

[CornerFlag]

The torys have absolutely gutted the economy for their own greedy means for years, the first thing your manifest must do is fiscally stand up.

I to am disappointed he's had to reduce/remove some of his pledges but I totally understand why, its going to take years to get us to a stable position again and then hopefully we can start to see some of the more social type ones come back.

100%. I'm a bit weary that we don't see the latter happen though, I think we're in more of a fiscal black hole than is being told to the public. A lot will fall on Rachel Reeves' shoulders, and I trust her a lot less than Starmer.

[Red Beret]

Not elections, just that the Tories had 3 different leaders in about 8 weeks.

Sunak lost the Tory vote to a woman who lasted less time in office than it took a lettuce to go off, that's the c*nt we ended up with

And let's not forget - Truss was voted by the Tory membership. Something to bear in mind if people complain that Starmer stonewalls Labour members or stops their voice being heard.

Considering Corbyn, let's try to remember that party memberships just might not know everything there is to know about how to run a country!

[fridgepants]

Feel a bit like this is choosing between a shit sandwich and half a shit sandwich, but hey ho. Hopefully it means we won't have to have as much shit for lunch as before.

Got a work thing the day after the election, so maybe it's good that it won't really feel like 1997.

[Red Beret]

From the Guardian election newsfeed:

Jo Churchill, the employment minister, has announced that she is standing down at the election for family reasons. She has been MP for Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk since 2015. She had a majority of almost 25,000 at the last election, making this a rare example of a Tory safe, or safeish, seat. (The YouGov MRP poll suggests the Conservatives are on course to hold it, beating Labour by 38% to 28%. The boundaries have changed a bit, and it is being renamed Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket.)

Plans for an independent regulator for English football will not proceed further through parliament, it is to be announced, with the football governance bill paused as a result of the general election.

[cornishscouser92]

Thank you.

There's absolutely no way you can say that he's dropped every single one of those until you've seen the manifesto. Saying otherwise right now is just bluster. Maybe some will be watered down but you've got to be pragmatic about that and realise that the country is in a much, much worse state in pretty much every department than it was when these pledges were made.

Yes but the hard left never wanted Starmer and have hated him since day one, so any way to criticise they will - pledges, Gaza etc 

[fridgepants]

Also, the number of people on Mumsnet/social media who have decided to vote Tory because 'they're awful but at least they know what a woman is' is depressing. Not just because I don't agree (and I'm not posting this to start a debate on the trans issue either way) but of all the single issues you'd choose to determine your vote and that's the one you pick?

[Draex]

Maggie? She's even more calm and cold than she was 40 years ago.

Just joking! I know there's a big difference between having someone who can be dispassionate and objective and an utter sociopath who is immune to the suffering they are inflicting.

But this will be part of the battle Starmer faces. People might not find him relatable. They seem to see him as a bit of a cold fish - capable but perhaps lacking warmth. The problem is that he may come across as indifferent when making tough choices - and he will need to make a lot of those.

Fwiw, I don't think Starmer took the decision to ditch any of his pledges lightly. Tories pick and drop pledges faster than they change their undies. I think Starmer is just being pragmatic and knows he's up against a hostile media. He has to thread the needle and and is treading a fine line between what he wants to do and what he thinks he can do. And he's human, so he's going to make mistakes on that.

It's inevitable that supporters will be pissed off when they feel he's not doing what they think he should. Pretty much how any armchair manager views a footie game.

On the plus side, a surge in Labour MPs will hopefully present us with a lot of new up and coming talent that can help address the brain drain that's occurred in Parliament over the last 14 years. It could be the next Labour leader is elected on July 4th - or the one after anyway.

Hopefully not, evil bitch.

I quite like having a leader who is a bit emotionless, makes a change from the "charming" idiots like Bojo. A leader at the top who leads and makes decisions based on facts with good personalities under him who have the empathy and tie in with the people.

The great irony is Starmer is more strong and stable than the torys ever were.

I still maintain Starmer is playing it grey and not giving the right wing media (who need fucking off in this country) anything to go at him with.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Quite 

Although I do not recall reading your post, maybe I skimmed it and picked up on your message subliminally.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I don’t like the man, find him charmless and phony, don’t trust him (because of his demonstrable track record of breaking promises) and don’t feel remotely enthused by his project. It’s a personal judgement, not some universal truth.

If you think the way Starmer presented himself when vying for the leadership and the way he’s acted since are congruent, then fine. The way he’s rowed back on anything leftwing whilst heading rightwards is excellent, then lovely, promising signs on that front. All the pledges and promises he’s binned off, from nationalisation and student fees, scrapping private schools charitable status, a £28bn green new deal, new deal for working people, etc - all ditched or hacked away at, are good and a sign the man is a trustworthy type then again, fine. If you like a Labour Party draped in more flags than the BNP promising cast iron fiscal discipline and using their made up rules to weasel out of spending then great. Good for you. The future is bright.

Right, but you said those words. There must have been some reason why you said those words. You must believe them to be true - and you appeared to say them in an angry manner - based on the words you used.

So for you to confidentally use those words in the manner you did on this - a public forum (Which is limited only by people that can post on it) - you must have some specific reasons why you used those words about the person you used them against.

For context, I see a lot of these words (And others) used on Social Media by those that are left or very left or even far left - quite often they are repeated, quite often they are angrilly stated and I've asked for specific examples of why. I don't get any answers. Ever. Which is a bit odd. I talk a load of shite on here and elsewhere and quite often people won't agree with me and sometimes I'm wrong and when challenged had to admit that. But in every case, I can furnish people with a reason why I said what I did at the time. Sometimes that's as simple as me being angry/pissed.


I mean. You posted them - there must be specific examples for you posting the words you posted?

[Red Beret]

Hopefully not, evil bitch.

I quite like having a leader who is a bit emotionless, makes a change from the "charming" idiots like Bojo. A leader at the top who leads and makes decisions based on facts with good personalities under him who have the empathy and tie in with the people.

The great irony is Starmer is more strong and stable than the torys ever were.

I still maintain Starmer is playing it grey and not giving the right wing media (who need fucking off in this country) anything to go at him with.

I agree. I have no time for The Scum but they always like to claim they backed the winner. But the RW media HATE Starmer, so they're going to find themselves in a bit of a bind this time around.

The prospect of a Labour government rebuilding bridges with the EU, even covertly, delights me. It's the media's biggest bugbear. They're screaming, but nobody is listening to them anymore.

[oldfordie]

On that though, OF, you've said "Things change, it's politics" but you've blasted one side of the argument for it and defended another. Surely you can see the argument that this could be seen as hypocritical?

I'm looking at the pledges that Starmer's made before being made Labour leader and the position he's currently in and it does feel like two different prime ministerial candidates. I personally think it's absolutely fair to have misgivings about the direction he's taken himself and the likely direction of the party in a leadership role.  I guess where I may differ to some is that I'm (slightly begrudgingly) accepting the compromises that have been made so that the country switches from Tory to Labour leadership, but I think it's fine to point out the changes made if we're castigating one side for similar.

Well the insinuation being made is Starmer deliberately lied about those pledges to win the leadership. ive criticised Corbyn for breaking his pledges but ive never once attacked him for lying about those pledges, in fact ive gone into details on the reasons why he was forced to drop the pledges.
  I don't believe Starmers lied about any of those pledges to win the leadership, I doubt if any of us on here would disagree with them, the problem is maybe some have to be put on the back burner for now but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in these pledges.
I want every service Nationalised but I would shake my head in disbelief if Labours Manifesto said we are going to Nationalise every service inside the first 5 yrs. funny enough ive been making this point for years, Labour can only bring in change the public support. it doesn't mean they don't want to do more, am sure they do but they fear a backlash from the public.

[Libertine]

Yes but the hard left never wanted Starmer and have hated him since day one, so any way to criticise they will - pledges, Gaza etc 

It's bad enough he's been a very successful LOTO. Imagine if he gets a big majority? No wonder the attacks are ramping up.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Corbyn / Galloway dream team with all the Red-Tories burned on a bonfire.

Nope

https://news.sky.com/story/complete-non-starter-jeremy-corbyn-allies-snub-george-galloways-plea-for-political-pact-with-ex-labour-leader-13088286

[west_london_red]

Nope

https://news.sky.com/story/complete-non-starter-jeremy-corbyn-allies-snub-george-galloways-plea-for-political-pact-with-ex-labour-leader-13088286

I read something a few weeks back saying Galloway labelled Corbyn as being too woke for his party which tells you all you need to know about Galloways party.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I read something a few weeks back saying Galloway labelled Corbyn as being too woke for his party which tells you all you need to know about Galloways party.

[/b]

Exactly
Corbyn has his faults, but GG is an awful mam, they are not bed fellows.

[Lisan Al Gaib]

Also, the number of people on Mumsnet/social media who have decided to vote Tory because 'they're awful but at least they know what a woman is' is depressing. Not just because I don't agree (and I'm not posting this to start a debate on the trans issue either way) but of all the single issues you'd choose to determine your vote and that's the one you pick?

Luckily places like this are the very definition of an echo chamber because those people will be in such a minority that their votes will be extremely unlikely to make a difference

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Nope

https://news.sky.com/story/complete-non-starter-jeremy-corbyn-allies-snub-george-galloways-plea-for-political-pact-with-ex-labour-leader-13088286

I was actually joking

[Libertine]

@TomLarkinSky
Rishi Sunak taking a brave approach to small talk at a brewery in Wales.

He asked workers if they're looking forward to 'all the football'. One quickly pointed out that Wales haven't qualified for the Euros 😬





The girl to his right....

[Kenny's Jacket]

I was actually joking

Thats fine mate. I just wanted to make sure you know that they are not aligned in the same way as say Starmer and Natalie Elphicke

[Red-Soldier]

Thats fine mate. I just wanted to make sure you know that they are not aligned in the same way as say Starmer and Natalie Elphicke

 

[TepidT2O]

It’s all very well being photographed in lots of pubs… but if you don’t really drink and everyone knows it … it all looks so false.  Don’t talk about football and pretend to like it when it’s not you.
It’s the Ed Milliband mistake, don’t pretend to be something you aren’t. If you’re a nerd, own it, people don’t mind as long as you’re authentic)

[Red-Soldier]

I agree. I have no time for The Scum but they always like to claim they backed the winner. But the RW media HATE Starmer, so they're going to find themselves in a bit of a bind this time around.

The prospect of a Labour government rebuilding bridges with the EU, even covertly, delights me. It's the media's biggest bugbear. They're screaming, but nobody is listening to them anymore.

The Tories and their mates, the press, big business, etc, do not fear a Starmer Labour Party.

[B0151?]

It's pretty common for the refrain on here to be just get the Tories out but I've said it before, whatever your politics are, it's time for someone else to have a go. It's really that simple for me. It would be a disaster for the state of politics in our country if the Tories really made it to 20 years in power when nobody even likes them right now...

[Wabaloolah]

I'm looking at his pledges when he became leader, all of which have been dropped.

there's a huge difference in being elected leader of a party that was not expected to win in 2024 compared to being a Prime Minister in waiting. He has to have cost effective plans when in government or the right wing press would have a field day and the "Magic Money Tree" shite would come out again

[BarryCrocker]

So Sunak probably owes Piers Moron £1,000 after insisting that 'planes before the next election' has fallen well short.

[gamble]

A few questions for you all:

1. What are the polls saying?
2. Do you believe in the accuracy of these polls?

[cornishscouser92]

It's bad enough he's been a very successful LOTO. Imagine if he gets a big majority? No wonder the attacks are ramping up.

Owen Jones has said vote Green, and we all listen to Owen. 

[Kenny's Jacket]

A few questions for you all:

1. What are the polls saying?
2. Do you believe in the accuracy of these polls?

Someome will give you are more detailed reply
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49500-political-tracker-roundup-may-2024

You can tell the accuracy from by elections, mayoral elections etc and the fact that the media have turned on the Tories

[Lisan Al Gaib]

Thats fine mate. I just wanted to make sure you know that they are not aligned in the same way as say Starmer and Natalie Elphicke

They're probably a lot closer aligned than you think though

[stjohns]

Ditch the specs, Keir FFS!

[Lisan Al Gaib]

A few questions for you all:

1. What are the polls saying?
2. Do you believe in the accuracy of these polls?

The polls are saying a Labour landslide

I'd say they're fairly accurate, Labour should win a decent majority but I don't see it being the landslide being predicted at the moment

[PaulF]

Also, the number of people on Mumsnet/social media who have decided to vote Tory because 'they're awful but at least they know what a woman is' is depressing. Not just because I don't agree (and I'm not posting this to start a debate on the trans issue either way) but of all the single issues you'd choose to determine your vote and that's the one you pick?

How would 'Rawk' try to change someone with this mindset? It goes back a little bit to the weak voice Zeb heard.
It's mostly a nonsense issue, but it's ingrained in some people.  It should be easy enough to make people think twice about this , but changing people's minds is notoriously difficult (I don't even fully know where it comes from).

As for doorstep canvassers, remember they are not there to change your mind, they are there to make sure if you support them that you get to the polls.