Author Topic: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤  (Read 258665 times)

Offline paulrazor

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3960 on: May 21, 2024, 08:08:02 am »

The mobility issue has been there from the first game at Newcastle in August though. Read the match comments from the game, the concerns were there.

We have looked extremely vulnerable all season long defensively, and that's despite having Virgil (our 2nd best player after Mac) and Quansah at CB. The midfield is too easily bypassed, and against 10 man Wolves again they had a glorious chance after getting in behind the midfield only for Virgil to block a goal bound shot and prevent it being 11 league games without a clean sheet.

Go to 1:25 here:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/zcgLG3eBPAw&amp;pp=ygUebGl2ZXJwb29sIHZzIHdvbHZlcyBoaWdobGlnaHRz" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/zcgLG3eBPAw&amp;pp=ygUebGl2ZXJwb29sIHZzIHdvbHZlcyBoaWdobGlnaHRz</a>

It's too easy, without that defensive screen in midfield teams get in behind us. We aren't in Dublin this Wednesday at Atalanta's runners had a field day against us.


100%
Whole team was poor vs Atalanta

Newcastle away was not the best game to show case Endo given we were down to 10 early in the game

He definitely gets done for pace big time in that Wolves clip, like hes running in water. Pace isnt a strong point for him thats for sure

With Slot playing a 4231 it might take a bit of responsibilty off him

I think a DM is the most important part of this window
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Offline jepovic

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3961 on: May 21, 2024, 08:26:56 am »
Both are excellent points, this was posted in new manager thread and it's an excellent watch, a fair view on what we could improve. There is also this reinvention of Fabinho having exceptional recovery pace, I don't agree, he was one of the best front foot defenders with his telescopic octopus legs but if you got past him his tracking was average at best. It's a team game and collectively we don't defend well, and we expose our 6 massively.

Here's the video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26gyYaZ-Two

They discuss the "6" a lot and a great point used is Arsenal actually played Jorginho for the majority of their big games at 6, not Rice and me nan can run faster than Jorginho, which points to this mythical speedster at 6 not being the big fix to all our problems.

As you say jepovic we don't counter press well anymore and a lot of this is down to our shape and how we play so open and fluid so when we lose the ball we have wide open spaces for the opponent to attack into, it's no coincidence we are one of the highest for dribbled past teams in the league, stopping dribblers is about swarming the player quickly but we get exposed 1 v 1 in an open pitch a lot, and thats one of the hardest defensive jobs in football.
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3962 on: May 21, 2024, 08:49:16 am »
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

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Offline Draex

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3963 on: May 21, 2024, 08:52:23 am »
Paolo Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

Wan Bissaka -  ;D

It's so true though, Van Dijk rarely if ever slide tackles, there was a period where his aura scared off attackers :D

There is also the point of do your defending by keeping the ball, we play a bit too hectic at times leading to counters and big open spaces to defend. You expend more energy off the ball than on it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 08:54:20 am by Draex »

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3964 on: May 21, 2024, 09:30:34 am »
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

We lump players together but there are actually 2 separate skillsets in play with DMs. One is the deep lying playmaker stuff, one is the 'defensive screen/ destroyer' type stuff. It's rare that a player can be both. But if they're the latter, they're going to need to be athletic. Our issue is we kinda have neither. Fabinho to some extent used to do both for us.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 09:42:25 am by Knight »

Offline Eeyore

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3965 on: May 21, 2024, 09:44:09 am »
Recovery pace is just overrated. A lot (if not most) of the best DMs are pretty slow, in particular compared with the AMs that they are supposed to stop. Instead they use anticipation and reading of the game.

Mascherano was an exception, and he was running around like a rabid dog.
Very entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure how effective it was. If you end up having to do full speed recovery runs 20 times per game, your positioning is probably off.

It's a bit like defenders that do a lot of sliding tackles - it's often a sign of bad anticipation.

In that case was it just a case of Henderson and Fabinho losing their anticipation?

It was just a myth that they declined when their legs went?

If you want to press the opposition or use your deep midfield players in your build up then at times they are going to end up ahead of the ball. Gone are the days of your 6 or 6s just sitting in and screening the centre backs for 90 minutes. That is when you need recovery pace.

Reading the game well sensing danger and being in the right place are all things you need as a 6. Inevitably the though at some stage as a unit you are going to make mistakes. That is when recovery pace becomes essential either to get back in or just to be able to make a tactical foul.

That brings us to Endo. The thing is he doesn't really have many of the tools to be a single 6. He doesn't sense danger, far too often he let's runners go. He ends up ahead of the ball far too often. He ends up out of position and can't get back in. The number of times we get cut open and you see one of our 8s or even a forward sprinting back past him is crazy.

He just isn't a natural single 6 for me and doesn't have the skill set. He does have his qualities he is a decent passer, if you get him turned and facing the opposition goal, some of his vertical pressing is very good. His best asset though is backing up the press get him close to players and he is very brave and gets in players faces and is a useful ball winner. That only works though if we stay in shape and he only has small spaces to cover. He struggles at the start of games when the tempo is really high and gets passed around and closed down in possession far too easily.

The biggest issue though is that he basically has to play in a double pivot. His lack of pace means we end up with Macca having to sit in alongside him. Even then he isn't the best against a high press so Trent ends up inverting and we basically end up with three 6s at times.

It isn't his fault he gives everything and is a useful squad player. For me though if we genuinely want to win the big trophies then he is the easiest player to replace. Stick Rice or Rodri into our team and for me we win the League and would be looking forward to tomorrow night in Dublin. I said from the start he should be doing the Milner role. Coming on with 20 minutes to go as the closer and being the senior pro in the domestic cup games.

Years ago the 6 was an afterthought. It was the domain of an experienced 8 who had lost a yard of pace or even a converted centre back.

The game has changed now teams want to play out from the back. That requires a 6 who is very press resistant and comfortable with his back to goal or on the half turn. Teams now target the transitions so you either need mobility or have a covering player the way City do with the likes of Walker, Stones or Akanji that protects the 6. The major change though is that the 6 is no longer a dumping ground for an aging 8 or a spare centre back. It is a fully fledged key position that requires a specialist. For me Endo always looked like a 8 trying to do a 6 tribute act.

This summer we need to grasp the nettle and go big on a specialist 6. I think the impact Fabinho had on the team in his pomp shows that.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 09:47:12 am by Eeyore »
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Offline KC7

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3966 on: May 21, 2024, 11:04:56 am »
Whole team was poor vs Atalanta

Newcastle away was not the best game to show case Endo given we were down to 10 early in the game

He definitely gets done for pace big time in that Wolves clip, like hes running in water. Pace isnt a strong point for him thats for sure

With Slot playing a 4231 it might take a bit of responsibilty off him

I think a DM is the most important part of this window
The DM was exposed vs Atalanta as Koopmeiners had the run of that central attacking area of the field. We were overrun to the extent some of our fans suggested (half jokingly) were they on something, a suggestion that was also directed at us by other fans the last time we were a running/pressing machine two years ago. And when the DM is exposed, the rest of the team doesn't function. Its the knock on effect, and the DM is such a pivotal role in the heart of the action that if it doesnt work nothing works. Both full backs (Tsimikas and Gomez) were done too, Tsimikas asleep when dispossessed upfield, and Gomez failing to track the attacker who easily made it 2, so it wasn't just the DM that night of course.

Jurgen imo made his worst team selection in his time at the club less than 72 hours after Atalanta by starting him vs Palace. Even when fresh and fully rested he will get done for pace, as the clip showed vs Wolves, but when goosed after such a physically draining game less than 3 days prior he will get done even more so. Palace dominated him in the first half and they could have been more than 1 goal ahead. Jurgen then took him off at half time with Dom coming on and with the increase in tempo and running power we tried to turn around the deficit in the second half, but it was too much to go to the well yet again.

Against Newcastle we were pinned for long spells inside our own half. Gakpo wasn't pressing from the front and allowed their defenders to walk up to and past halfway with no pressure on the ball. That was also the game that we got concerned by the lack of mobility of the DM. The suggestions on here were tiredness having just signed, which I thought too, but the next game we realised that he just wasn't that quick. The lack of running power and athleticism in the team was hurting us at Newcastle, and the game changed with Nunez and Harvey on for Gakpo and Endo, the tempo ramped up and we started to look dangerous again.

With the decline in athleticism in midfield we haven't look like a Klopp team in two years. Fainho's decline was shocking, legs gone completely. Going behind 23 times this season we are just too slow out of the blocks that teams do us. And away from home especially the midfield has to be athletic and strong, tracking runners, snuffing out danger at source, stuff we don't do. We are a soft touch and give away easy chances against teams who dont have to do a great deal (six goals againat a toothless United at OT in 2 games). In the league we have 1 away win against the top 10. From an attacking standpoint we don't win the ball back quick enough (nor as high up the field) in midfield anymore that puts forwards away in space with an easier chance to score. Nunez I think has suffered most in this decline from where we were two years ago as he is getting slower ball so opposition defences are given time to get set. The 8s are having to play deeper with a less mobile 6, so that midfield isn't at full throttle.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3967 on: May 21, 2024, 11:21:56 am »
In that case was it just a case of Henderson and Fabinho losing their anticipation?

It was just a myth that they declined when their legs went?

If you want to press the opposition or use your deep midfield players in your build up then at times they are going to end up ahead of the ball. Gone are the days of your 6 or 6s just sitting in and screening the centre backs for 90 minutes. That is when you need recovery pace.

Reading the game well sensing danger and being in the right place are all things you need as a 6. Inevitably the though at some stage as a unit you are going to make mistakes. That is when recovery pace becomes essential either to get back in or just to be able to make a tactical foul.

That brings us to Endo. The thing is he doesn't really have many of the tools to be a single 6. He doesn't sense danger, far too often he let's runners go. He ends up ahead of the ball far too often. He ends up out of position and can't get back in. The number of times we get cut open and you see one of our 8s or even a forward sprinting back past him is crazy.

He just isn't a natural single 6 for me and doesn't have the skill set. He does have his qualities he is a decent passer, if you get him turned and facing the opposition goal, some of his vertical pressing is very good. His best asset though is backing up the press get him close to players and he is very brave and gets in players faces and is a useful ball winner. That only works though if we stay in shape and he only has small spaces to cover. He struggles at the start of games when the tempo is really high and gets passed around and closed down in possession far too easily.

The biggest issue though is that he basically has to play in a double pivot. His lack of pace means we end up with Macca having to sit in alongside him. Even then he isn't the best against a high press so Trent ends up inverting and we basically end up with three 6s at times.

It isn't his fault he gives everything and is a useful squad player. For me though if we genuinely want to win the big trophies then he is the easiest player to replace. Stick Rice or Rodri into our team and for me we win the League and would be looking forward to tomorrow night in Dublin. I said from the start he should be doing the Milner role. Coming on with 20 minutes to go as the closer and being the senior pro in the domestic cup games.

Years ago the 6 was an afterthought. It was the domain of an experienced 8 who had lost a yard of pace or even a converted centre back.

The game has changed now teams want to play out from the back. That requires a 6 who is very press resistant and comfortable with his back to goal or on the half turn. Teams now target the transitions so you either need mobility or have a covering player the way City do with the likes of Walker, Stones or Akanji that protects the 6. The major change though is that the 6 is no longer a dumping ground for an aging 8 or a spare centre back. It is a fully fledged key position that requires a specialist. For me Endo always looked like a 8 trying to do a 6 tribute act.

This summer we need to grasp the nettle and go big on a specialist 6. I think the impact Fabinho had on the team in his pomp shows that.

While I agree with the gist of your post, he doesnt "let" the runners go, he's just physically incapable of keeping up. He has picked up quite a few bookings in dragging back players who bypassed him. At West Ham two weeks ago he was bypassed three times, one of which led to Ali making a save, and another for which he got a booking for holding back their midfielder.

The effort is there, the mentality is good, he's a great character in the dressing room. Unfortunately he doesnt have the mobility.

The modern game especially (so the last two decades), the tempo is quicker and quicker. You just cannot get away with a lack of athleticism at this level. Seeing Fabinho get bypassed so easily in 22-23 was utterly shocking. The last game of the season at Southampton with no resistence against their runners from midfield confirmed we had to let him go.

United, who are otherwise a mess, looked decent when Casemiro arrived as he brought them stability, just as the likes of Makelele and Kante did to whatever teams they played for. But when his legs started to go the protection he gave them went, and now they look a shambles.

Offline TheMan

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3968 on: May 21, 2024, 11:33:37 am »
good back-up number 6, he should not be a started for a team aspiring to win titles

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3969 on: May 21, 2024, 11:48:16 am »

thats a good post and he definitely had a few shoddy performances
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3970 on: May 21, 2024, 06:56:55 pm »
While I agree with the gist of your post, he doesnt "let" the runners go, he's just physically incapable of keeping up. He has picked up quite a few bookings in dragging back players who bypassed him. At West Ham two weeks ago he was bypassed three times, one of which led to Ali making a save, and another for which he got a booking for holding back their midfielder.

The effort is there, the mentality is good, he's a great character in the dressing room. Unfortunately he doesnt have the mobility.

The modern game especially (so the last two decades), the tempo is quicker and quicker. You just cannot get away with a lack of athleticism at this level. Seeing Fabinho get bypassed so easily in 22-23 was utterly shocking. The last game of the season at Southampton with no resistence against their runners from midfield confirmed we had to let him go.

United, who are otherwise a mess, looked decent when Casemiro arrived as he brought them stability, just as the likes of Makelele and Kante did to whatever teams they played for. But when his legs started to go the protection he gave them went, and now they look a shambles.

For me, he does both. If you are a player with not a lot of pace then it is all about getting in good positions. You give yourself a head start so when it turns into a foot race you have an advantage. Endo doesn't sense danger. We lose the ball high up the pitch and he jogs back. You see him keeping pace with his opposite number but never getting goalside. Then when it comes to a foot race he is always trying to play catch up.

I agree he gets bypassed. The issue for me is when he is trying to press from too far away. If we are compact and trigger the press then he is very good at closing down, very brave and goes straight for the player. The issue is it is all or nothing. If the distance is too great he can't adjust and look to block off the space he just has to steam in and hope he can get a block in or manage a tactical foul.

Someone like Fabinho could back off gradually reduce the distance between themselves and their opponent and then go to ground and time a tackle. Endo can't do that defensively he is a one-trick pony. If he can anticipate a pass, close his man down and steam in he is fine. There is no plan B.
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3971 on: May 22, 2024, 05:52:42 pm »
Wears a mouth guard though.
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3972 on: May 22, 2024, 07:37:18 pm »
For me, he does both. If you are a player with not a lot of pace then it is all about getting in good positions. You give yourself a head start so when it turns into a foot race you have an advantage. Endo doesn't sense danger. We lose the ball high up the pitch and he jogs back. You see him keeping pace with his opposite number but never getting goalside. Then when it comes to a foot race he is always trying to play catch up.

I agree he gets bypassed. The issue for me is when he is trying to press from too far away. If we are compact and trigger the press then he is very good at closing down, very brave and goes straight for the player. The issue is it is all or nothing. If the distance is too great he can't adjust and look to block off the space he just has to steam in and hope he can get a block in or manage a tactical foul.

Someone like Fabinho could back off gradually reduce the distance between themselves and their opponent and then go to ground and time a tackle. Endo can't do that defensively he is a one-trick pony. If he can anticipate a pass, close his man down and steam in he is fine. There is no plan B.

See what you mean. The main issue though is his lack of mobility as only the very elite can compensate for a lack of it in being able to think ahead and position themselves. Steve Bruce wasn't blessed with pace, but his anticipation was excellent (except when up against Romario who by his own admission took him to the cleaners). Another was Paul McGrath who with dodgy knees never trained, his display in the World Cup against Roberto Baggio in Giants stadium was among the greatest in the sport.

On your point about positional sense, think I'd have kept 36 year old Milner over paying 15m for Endo as although they would have similar limitations mobility wise, Milner had more nous in knowing where to put himself. That Wolves clip above for instance, Milner would not have been side on, allowing the runner to easily bypass him.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2024, 07:40:04 pm by KC7 »

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3973 on: May 22, 2024, 09:46:15 pm »
Hehe that’s a wild shout. 37 year old Milner isn’t a PL level player. Endo isn’t good enough for a title challenging team but he’s definitely a PL player.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3974 on: May 22, 2024, 10:47:30 pm »
Hehe that’s a wild shout. 37 year old Milner isn’t a PL level player. Endo isn’t good enough for a title challenging team but he’s definitely a PL player.

Thought Milner was a year younger for some reason. Still, if you look at some of his displays in his last season with us, filling it at full back and making 31 appearances, he was still a PL level player. He never had a Gary Neville moment when you knew he was done. He's always been much younger than his years (Hendo, over four years younger, athletically was about par with him). Just think if last season the objective was about getting top four, Milner definitely could have filled in in those games when Mac didn't play in the 6. Endo is a PL player of course, and he's a great lad in the dressing room, but we already had a player in Milner who wasn't the quickest to do a job in that role in some games. I'd have rather we went big and got in a top 6, but realistically that was a big ask to do a complete rebuild in one window (never been done before by any team according to Andy Brassell). Jurgen had he stayed beyond this season would no doubt would have finished the job in this upcoming window.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3975 on: May 23, 2024, 07:15:19 am »


We have looked extremely vulnerable all season long defensively, and that's despite having Virgil (our 2nd best player after Mac) and Quansah at CB. The midfield is too easily bypassed, and against 10 man Wolves again they had a glorious chance after getting in behind the midfield only for Virgil to block a goal bound shot and prevent it being 11 league games without a clean sheet.

Go to 1:25 here:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/zcgLG3eBPAw&amp;pp=ygUebGl2ZXJwb29sIHZzIHdvbHZlcyBoaWdobGlnaHRz" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/zcgLG3eBPAw&amp;pp=ygUebGl2ZXJwb29sIHZzIHdvbHZlcyBoaWdobGlnaHRz</a>


The problem in that situation was not the midfield but us being caught in possession whilst completely out of shape. Endo does the natural thing, the bit he’s been trained to do and presses the man to try and regain possession immediately, but because Quansah is the one who’s lost the ball by slipping over whilst on between the midfield lines we are exposed.

Normally it’d be someone else out wide losing the ball, Quansah would have been in position and able to step into the space to stop the Wolves player being able to just knock it past the Endo press, and Trent would have been able to cover the overlapping run from their left back. It’s a tricky situation as whatever Endo does, he’s exposed because of the positioning of Quansah, Mac Allister and Elliott once we lose the ball. He presses and then he has to try and catch up on the turn, which is going to be difficult for any player.

Your description isn’t really accurate as Wolves were already in behind the midfield when they won the ball really. I can’t remember the buildup to the situation but it looks like Quansah naively fell into a pressing trap, out of position and lost the ball exposing us to a quick counter. Any DM in the world would be exposed once that’s happened.
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3976 on: May 23, 2024, 11:12:55 am »
A defensive midfielder, getting easily bypassed, will always be a problem.

It's why we looked to be forking out over 100 million for a mobile one last summer, to replace the previous one, whose legs had gone.

And players lose possession, that will happen, and that's when cover is needed.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3977 on: May 23, 2024, 11:14:26 am »
The problem in that situation was not the midfield but us being caught in possession whilst completely out of shape. Endo does the natural thing, the bit he’s been trained to do and presses the man to try and regain possession immediately, but because Quansah is the one who’s lost the ball by slipping over whilst on between the midfield lines we are exposed.

The problem is Endo's lack of athleticism quickly followed by him not sensing danger. He doesn't get anywhere near Cunha who just strolls past him as if he is not there. That illustrates the issue with Endo he is fine following someone else's lead. If the press is triggered and he is already halfway to the target then he is fine. He is 100% committed and flies into the challenge.

However if he needs to change direction or needs a burst of acceleration then he just hasn't got it in his locker. The midfield combination of Endo and Macca is unbelievably bad at being dribbled past. Macca is in the 2nd percentile being dribbled past 2.27 times per 90 and Endo is in the 5th percentile at 1.65 times per 90.

Compare that to Rice who is in the 56th percentile at 0.66 per 90 or even Rodri who isn't the quickest who is in the 33rd percentile at 0.92 per 90.

Normally it’d be someone else out wide losing the ball, Quansah would have been in position and able to step into the space to stop the Wolves player being able to just knock it past the Endo press, and Trent would have been able to cover the overlapping run from their left back. It’s a tricky situation as whatever Endo does, he’s exposed because of the positioning of Quansah, Mac Allister and Elliott once we lose the ball. He presses and then he has to try and catch up on the turn, which is going to be difficult for any player.

Your description isn’t really accurate as Wolves were already in behind the midfield when they won the ball really. I can’t remember the buildup to the situation but it looks like Quansah naively fell into a pressing trap, out of position and lost the ball exposing us to a quick counter. Any DM in the world would be exposed once that’s happened.

The Wolves player doesn't knock it past an Endo press. There is no press. Endo doesn't get near him. Cunha just glides past him with the ball at his feet. Cunha just has too much speed and just runs across Endo with the ball at his feet. Endo doesn't even get close enough to go to ground and slide in or even make any contact with Cunha.

Then we get to the second issue. Endo is supposedly a defensive midfield player. We are in trouble he HAS to sense the danger and bust a gut to get back in. He doesn't he tries to sprint for a few yards, then slows into a jog and then is barely at walking pace. Then Ait Nouri turns inside Trent who has busted a gut to get back in.

It is only then Endo senses about five seconds too late that he might be able to do something. It is too late at the very least Endo should have been in position to prevent the square pass back to Cunha. Ideally he sprints back gets close to Trent and shouts to Trent to force Ait Nouri wide. It sums Endo up though. For me he is an Eight trying to play as a Six. Time and time again he switches off fails to spot danger and then simply isn't quick enough to react and cover his mistake.

A good example would be Antony's last-minute goal against us. A top 6 spots Antony in space and reacts and gets himself in there. Endo only reacts when the ball is on its way to Antony. Then it is too late and Endo is far too passive. There is no anticipation it is all about reacting to something too late. Lightening quick players who are very adept at going to ground like a Wan Bissaka can just about get away with poor positioning and a lack of anticipation Endo can't.

Another example would be the start of that video in which Wolves break from a corner. Endo sells himself and doesn't win the ball and then ends up about thirty yards behind the play with Liverpool players running past him. Even Macca who isn't the quickest runs away from him and gets back in.

Endo's defensive style is like a rugby League player. Great at steaming straight towards an opponent when he has time to get close but gets sidestepped like a training cone if they see him coming. He has done as well as can be expected but he has far too many flaws to his game to be a first choice for a team with major aspirations.
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3978 on: May 23, 2024, 12:09:23 pm »
I think you’re both extremely harsh on him here. His press relies on the space in behind being closed, but that space can’t be closed because Trent has to cover the left back. There’s certain situations where you just can’t lose the ball as a marauding centre-back. It’s okay, Quansah will learn, he’s an unbelievable talent, but he left the defence exposed and no DM could do anything about it, in that situation.

That’s not me arguing for him being our starting DM next season, just saying this is not a situation you can use to knock Endo, if you’re being fair on him. Quansah has a simple pass to Mac Allister who can knock it back to Trent, but stays on the ball too long. Endo actually is part of the reason they don’t score. He’s there when Ait Nouri turns Trent, making him to prefer to pass rather than shoot under pressure and gets across to put Cunha under too when otherwise he only had Van Dijk to beat. Meanwhile Mac Allister at no point gets back but isn’t criticised at all, despite being the same distance from the turnover in play.

For me though, that’s on Quansah who late in the game, just before the subs are about to come on to provide fresh legs gifts then the ball whilst out of position when there’s no need.
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3979 on: May 23, 2024, 12:35:05 pm »
I think you’re both extremely harsh on him here. His press relies on the space in behind being closed, but that space can’t be closed because Trent has to cover the left back. There’s certain situations where you just can’t lose the ball as a marauding centre-back. It’s okay, Quansah will learn, he’s an unbelievable talent, but he left the defence exposed and no DM could do anything about it, in that situation.

It isn't even a press Endo tries to cut off the forward run and just gets done for acceleration. There are no arguments that Quansah makes an error and loses the ball. The thing is a defensive midfield player's job is to help you recover from mistakes.

Of course a DM can do something in that situation. He can be quick enough to at least get across and slow Cunha down. Jockey him make him pass it square. Do things that allow other players time to get back in. Endo because of his lack of athleticism can't do that. Do you think Cunha would have been allowed to glide past Rice?

That’s not me arguing for him being our starting DM next season, just saying this is not a situation you can use to knock Endo, if you’re being fair on him. Quansah has a simple pass to Mac Allister who can knock it back to Trent, but stays on the ball too long. Endo actually is part of the reason they don’t score. He’s there when Ait Nouri turns Trent, making him to prefer to pass rather than shoot under pressure and gets across to put Cunha under too when otherwise he only had Van Dijk to beat. Meanwhile Mac Allister at no point gets back but isn’t criticised at all, despite being the same distance from the turnover in play.

For me though, that’s on Quansah who late in the game, just before the subs are about to come on to provide fresh legs gifts then the ball whilst out of position when there’s no need.

Endo isn't a reason they don't score at all.

Ali comes out and closes down the angles. Endo has stopped running 5 yards behind the ball and doesn't even sense the pass is on.



The pass is played and then he reacts. It illustrates perfectly his lack of anticipation and the way he simply doesn't sense danger. How many times do you see a covering defender come from nowhere and make a last-ditch tackle or clear one off the line. That is because they anticipate the possibility that they might get the chance to intervene and sprint back.

Endo doesn't he waits for things to happen and then tries to react. His defensive style is best described as loitering with no intent. He isn't looking to get back and cover Trent. He isn't looking to get back and cut off the pass. He only reacts when it is too late. He is like a defender in a rondo who waits for the pass and then tries to intercept. You have to anticipate where the pass is going to go and get yourself in a good position.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2024, 12:36:54 pm by Eeyore »
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3980 on: May 24, 2024, 07:54:09 am »
It isn't even a press Endo tries to cut off the forward run and just gets done for acceleration. There are no arguments that Quansah makes an error and loses the ball. The thing is a defensive midfield player's job is to help you recover from mistakes.

Of course a DM can do something in that situation. He can be quick enough to at least get across and slow Cunha down. Jockey him make him pass it square. Do things that allow other players time to get back in. Endo because of his lack of athleticism can't do that. Do you think Cunha would have been allowed to glide past Rice?

Endo isn't a reason they don't score at all.

Ali comes out and closes down the angles. Endo has stopped running 5 yards behind the ball and doesn't even sense the pass is on.



The pass is played and then he reacts. It illustrates perfectly his lack of anticipation and the way he simply doesn't sense danger. How many times do you see a covering defender come from nowhere and make a last-ditch tackle or clear one off the line. That is because they anticipate the possibility that they might get the chance to intervene and sprint back.

Endo doesn't he waits for things to happen and then tries to react. His defensive style is best described as loitering with no intent. He isn't looking to get back and cover Trent. He isn't looking to get back and cut off the pass. He only reacts when it is too late. He is like a defender in a rondo who waits for the pass and then tries to intercept. You have to anticipate where the pass is going to go and get yourself in a good position.

It is a DMs job to help you recover, that doesn’t mean they always going to be able to when the team is caught in possession out of position. Given the situation, I don’t think Rice, Rodri or a prime Kante get across to Cunha. Endo’s problem is he gets close enough to be slaughtered by those who want to use it against him, when he actually anticipates the dangers before it happens but he is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

We’re both interpreting the situation differently so we’re not going to agree. I’d say your version is the least charitable version, and what you expect of Endo in general is often overestimating what his contemporaries would be capable of. To my mind, Endo’s presence in Ait Nouri’s line of vision is the reason he passes instead of shoots or takes another touch horizontally away from Alisson, and Endo’s closing of Cunha next to Van Dijk at the end limits his options, makes him rush and ultimately helps to ensure we don’t concede.

If Endo was slow in body and mind, as you suggest, we don’t buy him, we don’t continue to use him and we don’t get 82 points with him as a regular in the side. I get that he’s the best stick to beat the club and particularly FSG with currently, but I just think those doing so often have over exaggerated the situation , perhaps subconsciously, to suit their agenda. We operate in a certain way, within our means and without spending big on secondary targets, waiting for our primary ones to become available, purchasing cheaper alternatives when needed to allow us to have the budget for the more expensive primary alternatives in the future. I  and many others can live with that, whilst others can’t, asking us to compare him to Rice and Rodri is an example of that. This has been the issue clouding the argument around Endo all season. It’s a proxy war.

He’ll likely still be here next year as a squad member who will produce when called upon. He’ll continue to be blamed by some for any goal he’s in the vicinity on until he leaves, whilst others take it in turns to defend him. Such is the Liverpool / RAWK way.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3981 on: June 5, 2024, 02:46:47 am »
« Last Edit: June 5, 2024, 02:48:47 am by rafathegaffa83 »

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3983 on: June 5, 2024, 06:20:10 pm »
“Loitering with no intent”.

Come on Al, that’s character assassination to the n’th degree. I know you love Fab, but to say he was always scanning the horizon for incoming would have also been disingenuous. The reason he tackles so often from behind (this recovery pace people keep bringing up) was that he was liable to miss his assignments also. And his play style was not sustainable, especially once he runs out of gas either late in games or late in the season, or even his career by and large.

It’s like picking on moments where Endo has a bad stretch, then leaves the rest of the footage on the cutting room floor. For large stretches this season he was our best midfielder, the one who when playing gave us the best record overall, even winning footballer of the month for us. Endo does anticipate well, there were games where he was managing the gaps in the midfield so well that once he gets taken off we got torn apart, this was evidenced on many occasions this season. But does he get bypassed? Sure he does, but complete defensive breakdowns start from the front, ends at the back, with everyone in between culpable.

Our defensive problems aren’t from our lack of a proper 6 this season, our issues generally speaking come from a front 5 that did not do its job pressing, either through lack of effort, will, or just general lack of intent in this department. Our team as it is would work so much better if we had more forwards and midfielders who can press as a team and not as a bunch of individuals. Slot, by and large, will probably demand this as a minimum. Let’s see how he deals with all of this when he comes in.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3984 on: June 5, 2024, 08:00:58 pm »
“Loitering with no intent”.

Come on Al, that’s character assassination to the n’th degree. I know you love Fab, but to say he was always scanning the horizon for incoming would have also been disingenuous.

It has nothing at all to do with his character. He is clearly a model pro who leaves everything on the pitch. It is entirely to do with sensing danger and anticipation. It isn't something you can coach. Some players just have extraordinary levels of anticipation and are able to read the game and stay one step ahead.

How many times do you see a goal poacher for example make an instinctive run and end up getting on the end of a cross or a deflection, whilst everyone else is still reacting. The same thing happens with defenders, you get elite defenders who have high levels of anticipation and are one step ahead. Probably the best example would be Thiago Silva who could see off much quicker players because he could anticipate what they would do. Another example would be Ali who is out at a players feet before they have even realised what is happening.

Fabinho had that in his locker. He could play as a full back against much quicker players and see them off because he had elite anticipation. Endo for me hasn't got that anticipation. It isn't his fault and there is very little he can do about it. His lack of anticipation means he is always reacting to things.

I think this is interesting. Endo talking about how he plays the game.

"It is the same for defence. I see how the opponents move a ball in their system and think how I defend when a particular player makes a move. I always think about these things while playing."

That for me isn't a player relying on his instincts. That is a player who has come up with a coping mechanism to overcome his inability to sense danger.



The reason he tackles so often from behind (this recovery pace people keep bringing up) was that he was liable to miss his assignments also. And his play style was not sustainable, especially once he runs out of gas either late in games or late in the season, or even his career by and large.

It’s like picking on moments where Endo has a bad stretch, then leaves the rest of the footage on the cutting room floor. For large stretches this season he was our best midfielder, the one who when playing gave us the best record overall, even winning footballer of the month for us. Endo does anticipate well, there were games where he was managing the gaps in the midfield so well that once he gets taken off we got torn apart, this was evidenced on many occasions this season. But does he get bypassed? Sure he does, but complete defensive breakdowns start from the front, ends at the back, with everyone in between culpable.

Our defensive problems aren’t from our lack of a proper 6 this season, our issues generally speaking come from a front 5 that did not do its job pressing, either through lack of effort, will, or just general lack of intent in this department. Our team as it is would work so much better if we had more forwards and midfielders who can press as a team and not as a bunch of individuals. Slot, by and large, will probably demand this as a minimum. Let’s see how he deals with all of this when he comes in.

For me to be a top single 6 you need one of two things. Either an elite ability to anticipate danger and react accordingly or elite athleticism. Endo hasn't got either for me and instead uses his experience and desire to cope. That is all it is though coping.

For me an elite 6 gives the forwards and 8's the confidence to press aggressively. They know if they are a split second late and get bypassed then the team can recover. When you haven't got that safety blanket then the press becomes less aggressive and things go from bad to worse. Fabinho's last season would be an example of that. The press became half-hearted and we left holes everywhere in midfield.

Last season for me when we had the legs in midfield with Szobo and Jones and with Macca holding we looked a decent cohesive unit. Once that changed to having Endo and Macca in the same midfield we struggled.
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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3985 on: June 6, 2024, 10:27:58 am »
Anyone got a link to his vlog?

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3986 on: June 6, 2024, 02:45:07 pm »
It has nothing at all to do with his character. He is clearly a model pro who leaves everything on the pitch. It is entirely to do with sensing danger and anticipation. It isn't something you can coach. Some players just have extraordinary levels of anticipation and are able to read the game and stay one step ahead.

How many times do you see a goal poacher for example make an instinctive run and end up getting on the end of a cross or a deflection, whilst everyone else is still reacting. The same thing happens with defenders, you get elite defenders who have high levels of anticipation and are one step ahead. Probably the best example would be Thiago Silva who could see off much quicker players because he could anticipate what they would do. Another example would be Ali who is out at a players feet before they have even realised what is happening.

Fabinho had that in his locker. He could play as a full back against much quicker players and see them off because he had elite anticipation. Endo for me hasn't got that anticipation. It isn't his fault and there is very little he can do about it. His lack of anticipation means he is always reacting to things.

I think this is interesting. Endo talking about how he plays the game.

"It is the same for defence. I see how the opponents move a ball in their system and think how I defend when a particular player makes a move. I always think about these things while playing."

That for me isn't a player relying on his instincts. That is a player who has come up with a coping mechanism to overcome his inability to sense danger.



For me to be a top single 6 you need one of two things. Either an elite ability to anticipate danger and react accordingly or elite athleticism. Endo hasn't got either for me and instead uses his experience and desire to cope. That is all it is though coping.

For me an elite 6 gives the forwards and 8's the confidence to press aggressively. They know if they are a split second late and get bypassed then the team can recover. When you haven't got that safety blanket then the press becomes less aggressive and things go from bad to worse. Fabinho's last season would be an example of that. The press became half-hearted and we left holes everywhere in midfield.

Last season for me when we had the legs in midfield with Szobo and Jones and with Macca holding we looked a decent cohesive unit. Once that changed to having Endo and Macca in the same midfield we struggled.

Have to disagree with that. I think it is because Endo has elite levels of anticipation that he is able to play the way he does even at his age. And Macca and Endo were lauded as our best midfield pairing when they were playing together, however the lack of pressing from the front dictated that we needed more midfield support by playing two advanced midfielders to plug the gaps.

The pressing was an issue because our forwards could not press as a unit. In effect, Gakpo got so much game time is partly because Nunez underperformed, but also because we needed a Firmino clone in the side. It’s a testament to Endo’s ability that Klopp chose to play him as a lone 6 for large stretches of the season because he needed to shore up our front options, in terms of getting more players for the midfield trap. You can argue that the defence starts from the front, Klopp has said this too before, and we were missing more a Firmino type player rather than a Fabinho type.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2024, 02:46:40 pm by Bend It Like Aurelio »

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3987 on: June 7, 2024, 10:49:41 am »
This ‘Gakpo is like Firmino’ idea is very odd. They have very little in common.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3988 on: June 7, 2024, 11:26:02 am »
Have to disagree with that. I think it is because Endo has elite levels of anticipation that he is able to play the way he does even at his age. And Macca and Endo were lauded as our best midfield pairing when they were playing together, however the lack of pressing from the front dictated that we needed more midfield support by playing two advanced midfielders to plug the gaps.

The pressing was an issue because our forwards could not press as a unit. In effect, Gakpo got so much game time is partly because Nunez underperformed, but also because we needed a Firmino clone in the side. It’s a testament to Endo’s ability that Klopp chose to play him as a lone 6 for large stretches of the season because he needed to shore up our front options, in terms of getting more players for the midfield trap. You can argue that the defence starts from the front, Klopp has said this too before, and we were missing more a Firmino type player rather than a Fabinho type.

When did Endo play as a lone 6?

We either had Trent inverting and being the second 6 or Macca dropping in and making it a double pivot. You can't claim erroneously for me that Endo was our best pairing and then state that Endo was playing as a lone 6.

As for Firmino, in 21-22 we came agonisingly close to an unprecedented quadruple. Firmino started only 17 games in all comps that season. From mid-February till the end of the season, he started 4 games. Probably one of the best pressing performances during Klopp's entire tenure at Liverpool was the semi-final against City at Wembley when we absolutely blitzed City in the first half.

That day we had a midfield of Fabinho, Thiago and Keita and a front three of Diaz, Mane and Salah.
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3989 on: June 8, 2024, 03:18:03 am »
This ‘Gakpo is like Firmino’ idea is very odd. They have very little in common.

He tried to fulfill the role, but obviously he isn’t as good as Firmino doing it. He even said in an interview Klopp asked him to fulfill a similar role as Firmino even though his favorite position is playing in from the left.

When did Endo play as a lone 6?

We either had Trent inverting and being the second 6 or Macca dropping in and making it a double pivot. You can't claim erroneously for me that Endo was our best pairing and then state that Endo was playing as a lone 6.

As for Firmino, in 21-22 we came agonisingly close to an unprecedented quadruple. Firmino started only 17 games in all comps that season. From mid-February till the end of the season, he started 4 games. Probably one of the best pressing performances during Klopp's entire tenure at Liverpool was the semi-final against City at Wembley when we absolutely blitzed City in the first half.

That day we had a midfield of Fabinho, Thiago and Keita and a front three of Diaz, Mane and Salah.

You’re bagging on his defensive tendencies, so he played as a lone 6 defensively. When has Trent ever helped out defensively in midfield?

And 21/22 was probably Fabinho’s worst satistical season defensively as a Liverpool player, and he only played in 29 games. You bring up half a game with that midfield when in reality that midfield hardly ever played as a unit. In reality we hardly pressed well ever since Firmino’s injuries have taken hold.

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3990 on: June 8, 2024, 10:04:55 am »
He tried to fulfill the role, but obviously he isn’t as good as Firmino doing it. He even said in an interview Klopp asked him to fulfill a similar role as Firmino even though his favorite position is playing in from the left.

If this is true it absolutely amazes me that Klopp spent August ‘22 saying we didn’t need a midfielder and then bought Gapko in January ‘23 and asked him to play like Firmino having bought Nunez in the summer of ‘22 to be a striker very unlike Firmino. It’s just such an odd collection of clashing decisions which suggests he didn’t actually have any idea what was wrong with us in autumn ‘22 and Jan ‘23. One of my big regrets is that the structure around and above Klopp fell apart, I think we’d be in a much better place now if that had stayed together. And I suspect Klopp would have brought us more silverware before he went.
« Last Edit: June 8, 2024, 10:06:32 am by Knight »

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Re: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤
« Reply #3991 on: June 8, 2024, 10:18:49 am »
If this is true it absolutely amazes me that Klopp spent August ‘22 saying we didn’t need a midfielder and then bought Gapko in January ‘23 and asked him to play like Firmino having bought Nunez in the summer of ‘22 to be a striker very unlike Firmino. It’s just such an odd collection of clashing decisions which suggests he didn’t actually have any idea what was wrong with us in autumn ‘22 and Jan ‘23. One of my big regrets is that the structure around and above Klopp fell apart, I think we’d be in a much better place now if that had stayed together. And I suspect Klopp would have brought us more silverware before he went.

What you are missing out though is that Salah looked almost certain to leave in the summer of 22. For me we bought Nunez because we were looking to transition to a traditional 9. That then went out of the window when Salah changed his mind and signed a new deal. Gakpo had played as a false 9 successfully in the World Cup, was available on the cheap and Firmino's deal was due to expire at the end of that season.

We clearly wanted a midfield player that summer because we went for Tchouaméni when that failed we decided to wait a year and go for Bellingham. The issue for me was that a lack of transfer business when we were in our pomp meant we needed basically a new attack and a new midfield at the same time.

If we get Tchouameni or Bellingham then things would have worked out in an entirely different fashion.
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