Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD - 2023 (FSG posts = get muted)

[Garlic Red]

Not sure about that.

There are huge amounts of examples of young players thriving at top clubs right now.

Bradley
Quansah
Elliott
Palmer
Mainoo
Saka
Martinelli
Odegaard
Saliba
Colwill

I could go on, all depends how young you are talking but so many are getting minutes and progressing well with the given minutes. Carvalho is a convenient example but he came into a side with a thriving attack, mainly operating in a role we never played with, of course he struggled, you could just as easily use Elliott as the example and it looks very different. Obviously loans can help but many young players can thrive at top clubs at a young age and do really well. There are so so many factors, the big club in question, the role being filled, the makeup of the squad, how the manager views youth etc

Think players around Bajcetic’s age/experience coming straight from academy level. It’s all relative to the player but if you have aspirations of competing for silverware and north of 85 points, it’s becoming almost impossible to do so and bed in young, inexperienced players. They tend to have to be generational talents who go straight in (Trent, Foden) or players that are signed at a young age with rare experience/development under their belt (potentially Yoro). Aside from that they really need at least some experience on their CV if they’re to arrive here and play at a young age. Only really Martinelli, Saka and Mainoo have done that on that list and look where their teams were finishing during the process.

Gray is a fine young player, he’d have been a brilliant addition if our midfield was around the level it was at around 3-4 years ago, lots of experience, players settled in their role, the system rock solid, role models galore, if we brought one in like him then and gradually eased him in, he’d have been fine, a bit like Curtis really who’s only been held back by injuries, the club developed him well. But now the midfield’s slightly different, it’s not quite settled, players are being used in different roles, different systems, they haven’t played tons of games together and we simply couldn’t add another teenager into the mix when we already have Bajcetic. Our priority needs to be developing the core talent about to peak, then the younger players. That’s why I think Bajcetic may go out on loan, 40-50 games in the next 12 months will be much better for him than 10-15 starts and 10-20 sub apps.

[Simplexity]

I really do not think we need more young players. We need players that are in the 24-25 year range and is ready to win now.

[Sonofthewind]

, it’s becoming almost impossible to do so and bed in young, inexperienced players. They tend to have to be generational talents who go straight in (Trent, Foden) or players that are signed at a young age with rare experience/development under their belt (potentially Yoro).

As I'm sure many have, I've been reflecting on Klopps time at the club and this has struck me amongst other things. I wonder if the ridiculous points total required ( and having to play those same teams in Europe) has hindered development across all top teams for young players who may have otherwise been decent squad players.

I don't think Camacho, Brewster, Harry wilson, Grujic or the like were prevented from being first teamers. But there were plenty of squad players or passengers in Alex Fergueson and Arsene Wenger teams who had good careers. To be clear I don't think anyones development was stifled. But it's no coincidence city can win everything when their bench is full of 50m squad players.

The margins for error have become ever smaller.

[Garlic Red]

I'll be surprised if he's even that cheap. It seems like the reporting around Leeds having to sell is just throwing numbers around. What's the most we spent on a teenager when Michael Edwards had been involved with the transfer process.

Think it’s a little too simplistic to just look at that Edwards did a few years ago and assume that’s what he’ll do now. Edwards was all about finding value in the market and exploiting undervalued players within the market. At that point you were able to sign the best players from most clubs between 7-20 in the premier league and pay a fair price for them. The game has now changed, those same clubs now having 4-5 suitors lining up for every talent, £30m is now £60m etc you get my point.

I think every single club in the world wants the high ceiling, high floor teenage talent, there are just so few of them and the race for them tends to be very competitive, it’s easier to sit them out and focus on other areas. That shouldn’t mean you completely switch off from that part of the market, though. Yoro could be seen as the next Varane, as in the next ready to play now teenage centre half whose cost you can spread out over a decade and still recoup a decent fee for if they decide to go 10 years later. These types of players, these levels of talent, are quite simply the most valuable assets in the market if you can beat off the competition for them.

Edwards was always about minimising risk, the more evidence you had the lesser the risk etc but maybe that bracket of player is no longer undervalued as more teams have cottoned on. Maybe the new area to exploit is slightly younger. Or maybe he’s just willing to make an exception for an exceptional young talent at a premium position.

[Sangria]

Kim? Already left last season mate.

He's talking about Juan.

[Sonofthewind]

They minimise risk by counting the total number of minutes played. They want players to have minutes in their legs. Football is littered with highly rated young players who didn't make the grade after a big money move.

I don't think Edwards sees that part of the market as having the most missed value. That's my opinion though. I doubt Edwards ( and team) wholly discounts any aspect. I was merely asking the most we've outlayed on a teenager while he's been involved though. As I can't think of a notably high example. Maybe I'm missing an obvious one.

[Sonofthewind]

Think it’s a little too simplistic to just look at that Edwards did a few years ago and assume that’s what he’ll do now. Edwards was all about finding value in the market and exploiting undervalued players within the market. At that point you were able to sign the best players from most clubs between 7-20 in the premier league and pay a fair price for them. The game has now changed, those same clubs now having 4-5 suitors lining up for every talent, £30m is now £60m etc you get my point.

I think every single club in the world wants the high ceiling, high floor teenage talent, there are just so few of them and the race for them tends to be very competitive, it’s easier to sit them out and focus on other areas. That shouldn’t mean you completely switch off from that part of the market, though. Yoro could be seen as the next Varane, as in the next ready to play now teenage centre half whose cost you can spread out over a decade and still recoup a decent fee for if they decide to go 10 years later. These types of players, these levels of talent, are quite simply the most valuable assets in the market if you can beat off the competition for them.

Edwards was always about minimising risk, the more evidence you had the lesser the risk etc but maybe that bracket of player is no longer undervalued as more teams have cottoned on. Maybe the new area to exploit is slightly younger. Or maybe he’s just willing to make an exception for an exceptional young talent at a premium position.

I never said anything about what he's done in the past being how he'll operate now.

[Coolie High]

Why anyone would want Gray, when we have like 7 midfielders age 18-23 who we'll struggle to give games to is beyond me.

[Sangria]

Why anyone would want Gray, when we have like 7 midfielders age 18-23 who we'll struggle to give games to is beyond me.

I'd look to cut at least 1 from the midfield group, and 1-2 from the forward group. We should be looking to renew on that basis each summer anyway, but these areas and these numbers seem what our current squad is due for.

[Clint Eastwood]

I'm just going to say it. I want Anthony Gordon. Would be perfect for that left hand side - pace, aggression, direct, scores goals, works hard. Boyhood Liverpool fan, jumped the Everton ship as soon as he got the opportunity. Just turned 23, so still has plenty of room to improve. I don't like his diving (particularly because he's so bad at it) but that can be coached out of him.

I don't know where the rumours came from, and I don't know how easy it would be to buy a player off Saudi, but he's my first choice for that left hand side. He's everything that we've been missing in our attack this season.

[SlotRightIn]

With Leeds failing to get promoted i’d be happy with us going after Summerville.

We aren’t in a peak Mane situation right now where we have a world class 26/27 year old wide player, so personally think bringing in a 22 year old with all the raw materials of becoming that, particularly for the touted fee of circa £30/35m would be a good option. Feels like a risk worth taking rather than watching him go to somewhere like Brighton, have a great season, then be £75m a year from now.

22 years old, pace to burn, also a good dribbler, good technically as well, and scores goals. Plus he’s used to playing in England so he wouldn’t have that adjustment.

I think it’s unlikely we’ll be challenging for the title next season anyway with a new manager and the 90-95 points it takes to be in a title race at this point so a year of Summerville backing up and then potentially taking over from Diaz if he proves good enough could be something to think about. I was fully on board with us going after Diaz when we did as his half season of excellent form at Porto made him look like what we needed in a new wide man, but he’s never really been able to recapture that goal threat since moving here which in the modern game is ultimately crucial to be a genuinely elite wide player.

I understand why some might have reservations, especially if today is the first time you watched him, but I think he’s worth taking a chance on. 

[spider-neil]

I'd look to cut at least 1 from the midfield group, and 1-2 from the forward group. We should be looking to renew on that basis each summer anyway, but these areas and these numbers seem what our current squad is due for.

I think Slot needs to look at them first and decide who fits his system.

[killer-heels]

I'm just going to say it. I want Anthony Gordon. Would be perfect for that left hand side - pace, aggression, direct, scores goals, works hard. Boyhood Liverpool fan, jumped the Everton ship as soon as he got the opportunity. Just turned 23, so still has plenty of room to improve. I don't like his diving (particularly because he's so bad at it) but that can be coached out of him.

I don't know where the rumours came from, and I don't know how easy it would be to buy a player off Saudi, but he's my first choice for that left hand side. He's everything that we've been missing in our attack this season.

You are mad.

[killer-heels]

With Leeds failing to get promoted i’d be happy with us going after Summerville.

We aren’t in a peak Mane situation right now where we have a world class 26/27 year old wide player, so personally think bringing in a 22 year old with all the raw materials of becoming that, particularly for the touted fee of circa £30/35m would be a good option. Feels like a risk worth taking rather than watching him go to somewhere like Brighton, have a great season, then be £75m a year from now.

22 years old, pace to burn, also a good dribbler, good technically as well, and scores goals. Plus he’s used to playing in England so he wouldn’t have that adjustment.

I think it’s unlikely we’ll be challenging for the title next season anyway with a new manager and the 90-95 points it takes to be in a title race at this point so a year of Summerville backing up and then potentially taking over from Diaz if he proves good enough could be something to think about. I was fully on board with us going after Diaz when we did as his half season of excellent form at Porto made him look like what we needed in a new wide man, but he’s never really been able to recapture that goal threat since moving here which in the modern game is ultimately crucial to be a genuinely elite wide player.

I understand why some might have reservations, especially if today is the first time you watched him, but I think he’s worth taking a chance on. 

You are mad.

The football talent spotting ability on here has gone to shit.

[GreatEx]

What the fuck is a progressive carry?  Running while holding up LBGTQ+ positive slogans?

means we'd get good resale value from the Saudi culture war department. Count me in!

[SlotRightIn]

You are mad.

The football talent spotting ability on here has gone to shit.

Yeah. Mad to think a 22 year old who just won the championship player of the year might be worth a look at. I mean what’s he got other than pace, skill and goalscoring.

I’m guessing you thought Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc were all pointless signings.

If only everyone had your incredible talent spotting skills. Maybe you should offer your amazing skills to the football club?

[AmanShah21]

To be fair Championship Player of the Year isnt really the best measure for a player's talent. They've given the award to plenty of players in the last decade that just didn't have anywhere near the same level in Premier League. If anything, I'd look at who they gave the young player of the year, cause they seem to get that one pretty bang on more often than not. This year's is Archie Gray and I'd absolutely have him if he's on the market. That lad can play right back and midfield and there's a bit of Trent in his passing range and playing style with a touch more pace. It's hard to go wrong with that lad if you want to take a small risk.

Just to know, the last few YPOTY winners for EFL/Championship -
2017 - Ollie Watkins
2018 - Ryan Sessegnon (also POTY, maybe that's what jinxed him)
2019 - Max Aarons
2020 - Jude Bellingham
2021 - Michael Olise
2022 - Brennan Johnson
2023 - Alex Scott
2024 - Archie Gray

[Lynndenberries]

Gordon plays in a team that lives on the counter. We don’t have that luxury. Sure, we get transition opportunities, but more often than not we have to break down a low block and he doesn’t have the passing or dribbling ability to do that.

He’s also a diving prick.

[Crosby Nick]

You are mad.

The football talent spotting ability on here has gone to shit.

Yeah, famously it’s always been spot on here.

[Asam]

Yeah. Mad to think a 22 year old who just won the championship player of the year might be worth a look at. I mean what’s he got other than pace, skill and goalscoring.

I’m guessing you thought Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc were all pointless signings.

If only everyone had your incredible talent spotting skills. Maybe you should offer your amazing skills to the football club?

Real Madrid will be shitting themselves at the prospect of coming up against him for sure, he’s a lock-in for Ballon D’or 2024

[mullyred94]

Yeah, famously it’s always been spot on here.

Just like when we signed Salah
Eye test doesn't mean much if you've only watched a player play twice against your team and thats the basis of the opinion on the player.

[spider-neil]

I don't envy our recruitment team because they have to balance the youngsters already on the books in the 18-22 age range, we also need players to come straight into the first team and improve, and we don't want to miss out on potential talent but will need developing. Do we pass on potential talent because our squad is filled with it? Do we buy potential talent to just loan them straight back which waters down the transfer budget?

So you have players who may have a higher ceiling (more potential) vs players who may not have as high a ceiling but have a lower floor (their current level is higher) or you may choose to develop your kids, warts and all.

These are just examples but the point is do you go for enormous potential, develop your own talent or get someone who is going to improve your team right now and loan or move on one of your kids in that position

For example; Defensive midfield
Develop Baj?
Buy Gray (a younster big big potential) and develop him and loan Baj out?
Buy Ederson who is more the finished article and loan out Baj and ignore buying potential?

Liverpool aren't a finishing school but you may curtail Baj's formative years by loaning him, you may miss out on quality by ignoring Gray and you may hurt your potential for silverware by not buying to immediately improve a position.
As I said, I don't envy our recruitment unless they think of players as pawns on a chess board they have to make ruthless decisions.

[mullyred94]

You are mad.

Gordons stats are better then the lad from Napoli..

Underlying stats are similar too.

[spider-neil]

I would have no problem with getting Gordon as he profiles very similar to Mane at Southampton the problem is the price tag doesn't represent value for money.

[mullyred94]

I would have no problem with getting Gordon as he profiles very similar to Mane at Southampton the problem is the price tag doesn't represent value for money.

Whats the price?

If we sold Diaz and brought in Gordon for similar amounts would you do it?

70m I'd have Gordon personally, 100m is ridiculous I agree.

In todays age we'd have to pay at least 70m to sign Mane, Salah would would have gone for at least 50-60m aswell.

[zero zero]

Gordons stats are better then the lad from Napoli..

Underlying stats are similar too.

Are they?

[mullyred94]

Are they?

Yes he has more goal involvements

Gordon has 10/10 29 GCA
Khvicha 11 goals 6 assists 16 GCA
Luis Diaz 8 goals 5 assists 9 GCA

Whos the most effective player based on that?

[AmanShah21]

Whats the price?

If we sold Diaz and brought in Gordon for similar amounts would you do it?

70m I'd have Gordon personally, 100m is ridiculous I agree.

In todays age we'd have to pay at least 70m to sign Mane, Salah would would have gone for at least 50-60m aswell.

Newcastle needs to sell atleast one big name from all the noise in the media to stay clear of FFP. Everybody expects it to be Bruno or Isak but Gordon might be the one they could probably accept more readily given they'd make a bug profit for a player they only bought 18 months ago and might be the one who actually wants to leave. Ideally we do the deal before Euros because if he has a good tournament he'll be unaffordable at that point. Right now 70-75 sounds about right for him for all parties.

Personally, I'd rather we get Kvaratskhelia if possible, who will cost a bit more but is a more ready talent with an even higher ceiling but I would not be upset if we got Gordon either.

[mullyred94]

Newcastle needs to sell atleast one big name from all the noise in the media to stay clear of FFP. Everybody expects it to be Bruno or Isak but Gordon might be the one they could probably accept more readily given they'd make a bug profit for a player they only bought 18 months ago and might be the one who actually wants to leave. Ideally we do the deal before Euros because if he has a good tournament he'll be unaffordable at that point. Right now 70-75 sounds about right for him for all parties.

Personally, I'd rather we get Kvaratskhelia if possible, who will cost a bit more but is a more ready talent with an even higher ceiling but I would not be upset if we got Gordon either.

They'd be less risk in signing Gordon imo as we know he suits the league, but the last winger we signed from Serie A didn't go too bad either.

Napoli did finish 10th so maybe they would listen to offers less than they would have 12 months ago, was reported they'd want 100-120m last year I believe.

I think they'd sell Oshimen if they had the choice on who to cash in on.

[clinical]

Summerville managed a mighty 4 goals in the premier league in at attacking Leeds side.

[Draex]

Kim? Already left last season mate.

[zero zero]

Yes he has more goal involvements

Gordon has 10/10 29 GCA
Khvicha 11 goals 6 assists 16 GCA
Luis Diaz 8 goals 5 assists 9 GCA

Whos the most effective player based on that?

Bit reductive as it's just a single stat, though. You said his stats are better. Gordon is nowhere for; progressive passes, progressive carries or successful take ons. All things I'd thought were useful for a wide forward/winger. I'm not being confrontational. I'm not too clued up on stats. Where should I be looking?

[spider-neil]

Bit reductive as it's just a single stat, though. You said his stats are better. Gordon is nowhere for; progressive passes, progressive carries or successful take ons. All things I'd thought were useful for a wide forward/winger. I'm not being confrontational. I'm not too clued up on stats. Where should I be looking?

A consideration is the relative strength of the league and the strength of the team they play in. With regard to progressive passes a consideration is his job may be to work the ball up the pitch and either get a shot off or pull the ball back into a crowded area.

[mullyred94]

Bit reductive as it's just a single stat, though. You said his stats are better. Gordon is nowhere for; progressive passes, progressive carries or successful take ons. All things I'd thought were useful for a wide forward/winger. I'm not being confrontational. I'm not too clued up on stats. Where should I be looking?

As a winger or forward the stats that mainly matter are goals and assists no?

His got 20, Diaz has 13.

Gordon is involved in the build up in a goal two offensive actions before a goal (pass before the pass, bringing the team up the pitch) he is almost 3x what Diaz is.

Thats how I look it at, maybe I'm the wrong one.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Summerville managed a mighty 4 goals in the premier league in at attacking Leeds side.

He only started 12 games.

[zero zero]

A consideration is the relative strength of the league and the strength of the team they play in. With regard to progressive passes a consideration is his job may be to work the ball up the pitch and either get a shot off or pull the ball back into a crowded area.

Thanks. We're dealing with so many variables. I don't follow Serie A, so I don't know the reasons behind Napoli's poor league performance. That would impact a players output. I'm sure the Palace attacking players look far more attractive under Glasner than under Hodgson.

Our biggest unknown is we have no idea of our new manager's plans for our squad. When Klopp came in he had been playing 4231 for years at Dortmund and then barely touched it when he got here. Slot will have his principles set, of course, but I doubt he'll make any firm idea on what he wants to do with our squad till he gets them in and has a proper look at them. Slot is known for developing youth so I doubt we'll be making moves on Archie Gray. Our academy midfielders kept us at or near the top of the PL when we needed them and I'm pretty sure most if not all of them would have bossed the Championship too.

I really don't understand the clamour for Gordon. Even if we leave aside the ex-Bluenose, diving and awful clobber I just don't see the need for marginal gains (at best) on our left.

The only position we absolutely have to fill is starting CB.

[mullyred94]

Thanks. We're dealing with so many variables. I don't follow Serie A, so I don't know the reasons behind Napoli's poor league performance. That would impact a players output. I'm sure the Palace attacking players look far more attractive under Glasner than under Hodgson.

Our biggest unknown is we have no idea of our new manager's plans for our squad. When Klopp came in he had been playing 4231 for years at Dortmund and then barely touched it when he got here. Slot will have his principles set, of course, but I doubt he'll make any firm idea on what he wants to do with our squad till he gets them in and has a proper look at them. Slot is known for developing youth so I doubt we'll be making moves on Archie Gray. Our academy midfielders kept us at or near the top of the PL when we needed them and I'm pretty sure most if not all of them would have bossed the Championship too.

I really don't understand the clamour for Gordon. Even if we leave aside the ex-Bluenose, diving and awful clobber I just don't see the need for marginal gains (at best) on our left.

The only position we absolutely have to fill is starting CB.

Gordon is a better finisher and more creative then Diaz thats why I want him.

From what I have seen his movement off the ball is more direct also.

His faster than Diaz also.

[zero zero]

As a winger or forward the stats that mainly matter are goals and assists no?

His got 20, Diaz has 13.

But those figures can be affected by having a perfectly legitimate goal chalked off against Spurs. Or another goal chalked off because his team mate couldn't stay on side. Would also help if his team mates could get to par on XG.

Gordon is involved in the build up in a goal two offensive actions before a goal (pass before the pass, bringing the team up the pitch) he is almost 3x what Diaz is.

That is impressive, I'm happy to concede. Newcastle don't have Mohammed Salah on the opposite wing though.

Thats how I look it at, maybe I'm the wrong one.

No right or wrong. Thanks for elaborating you position.

[zero zero]

Gordon is a better finisher and more creative then Diaz thats why I want him.

From what I have seen his movement off the ball is more direct also.

His faster than Diaz also.

That's fair enough, but I think our attackers would have an easier time if they weren't up against an entrenched team so they had to spend a third of the game getting back to parity because we've let in another early, soft goal at the back.

Gordon's HG staus adds value, but that isn't critical with Matip and Thiago leaving.

[Phineus]

Gordon has done much better this season than I thought he would, fair play. Has shown way more quality and ability in front of goal as I thought Newcastle had been robbed.

That said, I still don’t think he’s right for us. Not sure he has the close control and dribbling ability we’d need against a low block.

He’s far better suited to a team that plays in transition regularly than looks to dominate the ball. Should do very well for England this summer.