Topic: UAPs over America: real or balloons??

[So… Howard Philips]

Ok, I really wish we could talk about this in a friendly manner. Genuinely.
So we now have Karl Nell, backed up by Admiral Gauladet he is also involved with NOAA, but anyway, and then the likes of Mellon, Gary Nolan and grusch. And then you have the direct witnesses Fravor and Dietrich and so many more people saying these things. Anyone, and I mean anyone with an ounce of curiosity couldn't dismiss this and just ignore it. They can't all be lying or making this up for shits and giggles. So many of them are so well paid that they don't need the hassle. But yet they keep telling us something is going on. I'm curious.

But what, that is the question.

We have these breathless announcements that there will shortly be the unveiling of the crucial evidence and then…….after a six months another announcement.

[lionel_messias]

Ok, I really wish we could talk about this in a friendly manner. Genuinely.
So we now have Karl Nell, backed up by Admiral Gauladet he is also involved with NOAA, but anyway, and then the likes of Mellon, Gary Nolan and grusch. And then you have the direct witnesses Fravor and Dietrich and so many more people saying these things. Anyone, and I mean anyone with an ounce of curiosity couldn't dismiss this and just ignore it. They can't all be lying or making this up for shits and giggles. So many of them are so well paid that they don't need the hassle. But yet they keep telling us something is going on. I'm curious.

I'm sure we can to be honest. Hopefully there is something more "concrete" to discuss this summer,
as the people you mention: while they are valid and credible they also seem to enrage a lot of folk as they don't present bits of UAP side-paneling or the 4k photos we'd all like to see.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I'm sure we can to be honest. Hopefully there is something more "concrete" to discuss this summer,
as the people you mention: while they are valid and credible they also seem to enrage a lot of folk as they don't present bits of UAP side-paneling or the 4k photos we'd all like to see.

I don't think anyone here is 'enraged'. Rather, many here express varying levels frustration because of the constant cycle of 'the big reveal' being inevitably followed up with, 'oh, well, nevermind', and find it a bit tedious. Generally, they just take the piss at the endless cycle of it all (I know I do).

It was only a few weeks ago when even you seemed to express some weariness of being repeatedly promised proper evidence, only to be disappointed every time. But here you are again, excited and eagerly awaiting the next 'big reveal'.

Spoiler

You are going to be disappointed.

[close]

[lionel_messias]

I don't think anyone here is 'enraged'. Rather, many here express varying levels frustration because of the constant cycle of 'the big reveal' being inevitably followed up with, 'oh, well, nevermind', and find it a bit tedious. Generally, they just take the piss at the endless cycle of it all (I know I do).

It was only a few weeks ago when even you seemed to express some weariness of being repeatedly promised proper evidence, only to be disappointed every time. But here you are again, excited and eagerly awaiting the next 'big reveal'.

Spoiler

You are going to be disappointed.

[close]

🤓 I'm not sure I'd class myself as excited. I do think we'll get somewhere though. That's my view.

Is this a big deal? Not really.

It is easy to take the piss anyway, we all do it. This topic is ripe for it but there is also something going on worth looking at and talking about.

[thejbs]

Ok, I really wish we could talk about this in a friendly manner. Genuinely.
So we now have Karl Nell, backed up by Admiral Gauladet he is also involved with NOAA, but anyway, and then the likes of Mellon, Gary Nolan and grusch. And then you have the direct witnesses Fravor and Dietrich and so many more people saying these things. Anyone, and I mean anyone with an ounce of curiosity couldn't dismiss this and just ignore it. They can't all be lying or making this up for shits and giggles. So many of them are so well paid that they don't need the hassle. But yet they keep telling us something is going on. I'm curious.

Yes they fucking can and, most plausibly, are.

Why do you assume people with reasonable government pay have no inclination to grift when the evidence is generally to the contrary - especially when looking at the US gov and public office.

[BarryCrocker]

No one is really wasting there time proving we haven't had alien contact. I wonder why?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Be real for a minute, the murkiness comes with the grift.
But they sell the dreams you are all seeking.
That thrill you get at the thought of finding the greatest conspiracy ever. That's the hook.
None of the bullshit spouted by these grifters gets past the part about space being really, really, really big and the energy required to travel FTL and break GR is insanely huge. That's before all the rest that makes it scientifically unlikely.

Saddest thing is that real astronomy and space exploration tech is actually just as amazing without all the made up shite.

I'm not having a pop but I'm tired of people disappearing down conspiracy rabbit holes because of the internet and grifters.
5G, vaccines, Pizzagate and all the rest, these things can have real world consequences.
We got Trump and Brexit because of it.

FTL travel is not possible, but it can be circumvented. The theory is already there. Not hard to imagine that a far advanced race in all of space and time could master that.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Still waiting for someone with first hand experience though, it's all well and good saying I ran this or that............yeah but have YOU literally seen UAP/Aliens etc

I've been reading a few things about studies around the idea of extraterrestrial viruses. They aren't 'alive' in the same way that organics are which makes quite a few scientists believe that wherever the components exist, they might evolve.

You'd imagine that in a universe with billions of galaxies, containing billions of billions of billions of stars that some might evolve life and/or viruses.

The time component matters here as well. It's clear that mankind will wipe itself off the map in a few hundreds years and if the average for advanced technology covers that 500-1000 year period, in a universe that's  13.787±0.020 billion years old then the gap between any civillisation, plus the distance, plus the time to develop FTL circumventing technology means it's very unlikely we'll meet or see anything ever.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Ok, I really wish we could talk about this in a friendly manner. Genuinely.
So we now have Karl Nell, backed up by Admiral Gauladet he is also involved with NOAA, but anyway, and then the likes of Mellon, Gary Nolan and grusch. And then you have the direct witnesses Fravor and Dietrich and so many more people saying these things. Anyone, and I mean anyone with an ounce of curiosity couldn't dismiss this and just ignore it. They can't all be lying or making this up for shits and giggles. So many of them are so well paid that they don't need the hassle. But yet they keep telling us something is going on. I'm curious.

I haven't seen anything really unfriendly to be honest. People have opinions, other people have other opinions.

I think that people believe that aliens are here with no evidence are stupid. I think people who think aliens can't exist are stupid. It's a big universe out there. As I said before, the biggest hurdle is the distance in time and the distance in space.

[Jiminy Cricket]

FTL travel is not possible, but it can be circumvented. The theory is already there. Not hard to imagine that a far advanced race in all of space and time could master that.

Not really. Doesn't the theory rely upon using 'negative mass'? And there is no evidence for the existence of negative energy!?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not really. Doesn't the theory rely upon using 'negative energy'? And there is no evidence for the existence of negative energy!?

Not sure what theory you're looking at. The theory around warp drive exists. Miguel Alcubierre in 1994 produced this artcle: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/11/5/001

The warp drive: hyper-fast travel within general relativity

Abstract

It is shown how, within the framework of general relativity and without the introduction of wormholes, it is possible to modify a spacetime in a way that allows a spaceship to travel with an arbitrarily large speed. By a purely local expansion of spacetime behind the spaceship and an opposite contraction in front of it, motion faster than the speed of light as seen by observers outside the disturbed region is possible. The resulting distortion is reminiscent of the `warp drive' of science fiction. However, just as happens with wormholes, exotic matter will be needed in order to generate a distortion of spacetime like the one discussed here.


You can download the linked PDF for the details..

There are quite a few other scientists working on the idea. Does look fairly interesting.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Not sure what theory you're looking at. The theory around warp drive exists. Miguel Alcubierre in 1994 produced this artcle: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/11/5/001

The warp drive: hyper-fast travel within general relativity

Abstract

It is shown how, within the framework of general relativity and without the introduction of wormholes, it is possible to modify a spacetime in a way that allows a spaceship to travel with an arbitrarily large speed. By a purely local expansion of spacetime behind the spaceship and an opposite contraction in front of it, motion faster than the speed of light as seen by observers outside the disturbed region is possible. The resulting distortion is reminiscent of the `warp drive' of science fiction. However, just as happens with wormholes, exotic matter will be needed in order to generate a distortion of spacetime like the one discussed here.


You can download the linked PDF for the details..

There are quite a few other scientists working on the idea. Does look fairly interesting.

Misnomenclature in my original comment: 'negative mass', not negative energy. But negative mass also implies negative energy (Wiki). And the point remains the same - there is no evidence for the existence of negative mass or negative energy. And without negative mass and energy, the Alcubierre Drive cannot work. Plus, the last I heard, you'd need a Jupiter-sized negative mass for the drive to work, even in theory.

These things are a massive house-of-cards theoretical constructions, where even the most basic assumptions are nowhere near established.

I recommend Sabine Hossenfelder's Youtube channel for keeping all-things-science-related real.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Misnomenclature in my original comment: 'negative mass', not negative energy. But negative mass also implies negative energy (Wiki). And the point remains the same - there is no evidence for the existence of negative mass or negative energy. And without negative mass and energy, the Alcubierre Drive cannot work. Plus, the last I heard, you'd need a Jupiter-sized negative mass for the drive to work, even in theory.

These things are a massive house-of-cards theoretical constructions, where even the most basic assumptions are nowhere near established.

I recommend Sabine Hossenfelder's Youtube channel for keeping all-things-science-related real.

Yeah I watch her on https://brilliant.org/home/.

Although exotic matter has not been yet found in the state to provide this, it is entirely possible within known physics. In fact, several have already been proven such as the exotic hadron. https://home.cern/news/news/experiments/lhcb-confirms-existence-exotic-hadrons

This isn't science fiction. It's scientific fact. It will be interesting to see what else can be discovered going forward if we haven't blown ourselves up by then (Though that's clearly not going to happen)

[Alan_X]

Insert [Chain of Command leading to the current President of United States]

There is no one I have met IRL or online who could remotely put shade on Karl Nell. The guy is what he is.

He has an MSc in Mechanical Engineering and a Masters in Strategic Studies. In what way does that make him an expert on anything other than mechanical engineering and military strategy?

I’d say you were falling for the classic logical fallacy of argument from authority, but that generally assumes the “authority” has expertise in the field in question.

[thejbs]

I haven't seen anything really unfriendly to be honest. People have opinions, other people have other opinions.

I think that people believe that aliens are here with no evidence are stupid. I think people who think aliens can't exist are stupid. It's a big universe out there. As I said before, the biggest hurdle is the distance in time and the distance in space.

In fairness, no one has posted that in here. Only the belief that we’re not in contact with them. Whereas a couple of people are pretty sold on aliens visiting here.

[lionel_messias]

In fairness, no one has posted that in here. Only the belief that we’re not in contact with them. Whereas a couple of people are pretty sold on aliens visiting here.

Calling anyone stupid is never a good way to continue the conversation, I guess, either. I'm not sure anyone on here is specific about 'aliens' visiting; we'd have to establish NHI as fact incontrovertibly, then find out what they are and where they are from.

[lionel_messias]

He has an MSc in Mechanical Engineering and a Masters in Strategic Studies. In what way does that make him an expert on anything other than mechanical engineering and military strategy?

I’d say you were falling for the classic logical fallacy of argument from authority, but that generally assumes the “authority” has expertise in the field in question.

I think you are mischaracterizing what I was saying quite a bit. I was stating that Karl Nell is both highly credible and senior in both Army and aerospace circles. "Lockheed Missiles & Space, Northrop Grumman" stand out but he was also senior to Grusch within the UAPTF (task force). He's clearly someone with access, and if you listen to him speak you can tell he is careful not to say too much. Of course, people won't like that either!

From what I have read, he was instrumental in drafting the NDAA 2023 legislation with Chuck Schumer. So for what it is worth given he must have a nicely earning career: he must either be insane (to make unfounded claims) or he knows something.

The science is fascinating to debate but I do find it amusing that people say literally no one in the world has any credibility on this subject. Especially not Ryan Graves and David Fravor, the latter who would be one the world's most elite aviators and authorities on what things are or are not in the skies.

For what it is worth, yes, I would also need to see Karl Nell under Oath being cross-examined by Congress to move things further. Credible testimony does count but it is still "no cigar".

Or cigar-shaped UAP

 

[thejbs]

It makes it easier for you to say he’s either insane or he knows something. That’s a deliciously enticing conundrum for UAP fans as, logically, you are left to conclude it’s most likely he’s telling the truth. But there’s also the possibility he’s a grifter who sees the UAP circuit as an easier way to get a nice salary. Or that he’s genuinely gullible and mistaken.

Either way, he’s another mouthpiece with fantastical claims and zero evidence.

[lobsterboy]

I'm guessing the latest "somethings going in" is the distraction for whatever new military tech they'll be testing in the sky.
Drone fleets accompanying 6th gen fighters, scramjets etc.
The West is moving onto a war footing and the alien stuff has worked previously.

[Alan_X]

Just watched a 20 minute talk by Nell at The SALT conference. What a load of shite. The best bit was when he was saying some nonsense about the “Laws of Nature” applying across the Universe and saying non-human life would be based on Darwinian evolution. It’s a reasonable assumption to say that the laws of physics apply across the universe but the laws of nature? What the fuck does that mean? And there’s no reason why evolution by natural selection would operate anywhere but on this planet. He seems to think that evolution is a process that automatically leads to hominid or quasi-hominid life forms and from there to technical civilisations. Human life on Earth is not the endpoint or even the current highpoint of evolution. We’re just a twig on one branch of the evolutionary tree.

And going by his CV and all the places he’s claimed to work at, err… where was the evidence? Just references to the same old crew: Mellon, Elizondo, Grusch etc. Is it grift? Is he a believer? Who knows. What’s clear is it’s just more evidence-free hot air.

Degrees, CVs, clearances, access to people who have access to the President, interest from politicians, testimony from pilots… is all undermined by the simple fact that there is not a single piece of incontrovertible physical evidence, or video/photographic evidence that conclusively proves the existence of alien spacecraft.

[Jiminy Cricket]

But Alan - why would he lie?

[lobsterboy]

Just watched a 20 minute talk by Nell at The SALT conference. What a load of shite. The best bit was when he was saying some nonsense about the “Laws of Nature” applying across the Universe and saying non-human life would be based on Darwinian evolution. It’s a reasonable assumption to say that the laws of physics apply across the universe but the laws of nature? What the fuck does that mean? And there’s no reason why evolution by natural selection would operate anywhere but on this planet. He seems to think that evolution is a process that automatically leads to hominid or quasi-hominid life forms and from there to technical civilisations. Human life on Earth is not the endpoint or even the current highpoint of evolution. We’re just a twig on one branch of the evolutionary tree.

And going by his CV and all the places he’s claimed to work at, err… where was the evidence? Just references to the same old crew: Mellon, Elizondo, Grusch etc. Is it grift? Is he a believer? Who knows. What’s clear is it’s just more evidence-free hot air.

Degrees, CVs, clearances, access to people who have access to the President, interest from politicians, testimony from pilots… is all undermined by the simple fact that there is not a single piece of incontrovertible physical evidence, or video/photographic evidence that conclusively proves the existence of alien spacecraft.

That famous scientific documentary Star Trek has already proven that Aliens are hominid based and all we need is some dilitheum crystals and warp travel is solved.

[rob1966]

I'm guessing the latest "somethings going in" is the distraction for whatever new military tech they'll be testing in the sky.
Drone fleets accompanying 6th gen fighters, scramjets etc.
The West is moving onto a war footing and the alien stuff has worked previously.

I've been wondering why they are throwing photos of the new B-21 Stealth Bomber out there and publically demonstrating it, test flights in public, videos on YouTube. What are they really working on that they want to move peoples focus away from?

[Riquende]

I've been wondering why they are throwing photos of the new B-21 Stealth Bomber out there and publically demonstrating it, test flights in public, videos on YouTube. What are they really working on that they want to move peoples focus away from?

How do you know that's the real stealth bomber? I've heard that's just a B-2 with some papier maché bits added, and the actual bomber is actually just behind it in the photo, using cameras to stay completely invisible like that car from James Bond.

The place I read it can't directly reveal their sources but they assure me that it's top men.

[rob1966]

How do you know that's the real stealth bomber? I've heard that's just a B-2 with some papier maché bits added, and the actual bomber is actually just behind it in the photo, using cameras to stay completely invisible like that car from James Bond.

The place I read it can't directly reveal their sources but they assure me that it's top men.

[Riquende]

Can you stop being enraged at my experts please?

[lionel_messias]

It makes it easier for you to say he’s either insane or he knows something. That’s a deliciously enticing conundrum for UAP fans as, logically, you are left to conclude it’s most likely he’s telling the truth. But there’s also the possibility he’s a grifter who sees the UAP circuit as an easier way to get a nice salary. Or that he’s genuinely gullible and mistaken.

Either way, he’s another mouthpiece with fantastical claims and zero evidence.

Please tell me how a CTO gets more money on the UAP circuit than
his day job?

If The Debrief paid him £25,000 for his one paragraph quote, maybe I'll pitch them some articles

I will say I didn't like all his answers, especially when asked about evidence I think it was. Karl Nell
has not once said how he knows what he knows, or made a positive statement about evidence. This has an expiry date for me personally. I don't give him a pass much beyond the next few months for this sort of statement; I'd rather he goes in to be questioned by congress, even if the outcome is classified at first.

As I've stated often, I don't buy the "grift" line, it makes little sense to me for these guys but the truth appears difficult and illusive.

[thejbs]

Then he’s gullible and/or delusional.

There are different kinds of grift. Personal grift on the conspiracy roadshow where you profit from appearances, docs, YouTube and books. And then the professional grift where you use ufo nonsense to get more funding allocated from the government. The latter annoys me most as it’s public money in play.

[lionel_messias]

Then he’s gullible and/or delusional.

There are different kinds of grift. Personal grift on the conspiracy roadshow where you profit from appearances, docs, YouTube and books. And then the professional grift where you use ufo nonsense to get more funding allocated from the government. The latter annoys me most as it’s public money in play.

Okay I get that but I find it incredible, and extremely unlikely a man of his career would be delusional, or needing public money. He talks like a sober, boring beaurocrat, the kind of C-suite person who could talk you to sleep for 2 hours in a boardroom presentation.

I agree we need hard evidence and it's more interesting to talk science.

But the idea Karl Nell and Chris Mellon are (independently) insane, delusional or looking for cash/attention on podcasts is just so very unlikely and doesn't hold up.

Two unlikely, probability-wise, statements?

1) UAP are "not ours and not theirs" in terms of human governments.

2) Highly qualified, paid, and promoted individuals with security clearance believe rumours or are delusional.

Should collect evidence of either case.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Okay I get that but I find it incredible, and extremely unlikely a man of his career would be delusional, or needing public money. He talks like a sober, boring beaurocrat, the kind of C-suite person who could talk you to sleep for 2 hours in a boardroom presentation.

So, you find it more likely that we have visiting inter-dimensional or FTL beings routinely fucking up their parking job when arriving at planet Earth, and then for all the world's government to conspire in a coverup involving hundreds-of-thousands (or millions) of people!? Which is the simpler (Occam's Razor) explanation?

[So… Howard Philips]

That famous scientific documentary Star Trek has already proven that Aliens are hominid based and all we need is some dilitheum crystals and warp travel is solved.

And Scotty to repair said dilithium crystals when an emergency erupts.

[whtwht]

Just checking in to see if we've had definitive proof of Aliens. Guess not.

*leaves thread*

[lionel_messias]

So, you find it more likely that we have visiting inter-dimensional or FTL beings routinely fucking up their parking job when arriving at planet Earth, and then for all the world's government to conspire in a coverup involving hundreds-of-thousands (or millions) of people!? Which is the simpler (Occam's Razor) explanation?

I don't personally have a theory on the origin of UAP, and my assumption is any hidden knowledge of their nature by government bods would be limited to dozens or low hundreds of people. People that could easily be identified if they spoke out, and lose their clearance and careers if they did.

[thejbs]

I don't personally have a theory on the origin of UAP, and my assumption is any hidden knowledge of their nature by government bods would be limited to dozens or low hundreds of people. People that could easily be identified if they spoke out, and lose their clearance and careers if they did.

That’s still incredibly unlikely. A few hundred people and not one will speak out for fear of losing their job and replacing it with the fortune they’d likely get for providing tangible evidence of alien contact.

[PROPER crazyemlyn72]

I still can't get over Dave Fravors description of the tictac flight movement. He described it as if you put a glass over a table tennis ball and shook it. 4 navy personnel witnessed it. Imagine seeing that.

[lionel_messias]

I still can't get over Dave Fravors description of the tictac flight movement. He described it as if you put a glass over a table tennis ball and shook it. 4 navy personnel witnessed it. Imagine seeing that.

Yeah, he's good to listen to. He testified in Congress and talked about the incident in July 2023. It is worth noting that he was the commanding officer of the Black Aces, no higher group of fighter pilots in the US Navy, believe the Top Gun
movies are based on them. Worth a quick read again to remember what he said under Oath. And this is no UFO dude, he was never interested in the topic and ribbed by colleagues at the time.

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/David-Fravor-Statement-for-House-Oversight-Committee.pdf

This is one of the interesting parts:

"In closing, I would like to say that the Tic Tac Object that we engaged in Nov 2004 was far
superior to anything that we had at the time, have today, or are looking to develop in the next
10+ years."

If we could have all the government data around any incident ever reported, it would be Tic Tac for me. His superiors were telling him these objects had been detected on radar for 2 weeks before Fravor was sent to intercept one.
His Admiral did not express surprise when the incident was being talked about with him present.

Hand over all available data and let scientists present what they think the object was. If it were Chinese in origin, I suggest everyone starts learning Mandarin pretty sharpish.