Author Topic: Arthur Melo  (Read 48314 times)

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #520 on: September 21, 2022, 07:42:12 pm »
Sort of a freebasin approach...
If it helps us tap into his talents (but let's not faucet too much) and plugholes in the team in a season that could be draining... Let's hope he isn't washed-up!
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Offline Jon2lfc

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #521 on: September 21, 2022, 07:45:09 pm »
If it helps us tap into his talents (but let's not faucet too much) and plugholes in the team in a season that could be draining... Let's hope he isn't washed-up!
I don't think nothing will deter this gent..

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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #523 on: September 21, 2022, 07:58:29 pm »
I don't think nothing will deter this gent..
Fairy nuff :)
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Offline Jon2lfc

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #524 on: September 21, 2022, 08:20:54 pm »

Offline GoldenGloves25

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #525 on: September 21, 2022, 09:05:35 pm »
As player-coach, Spearing subbed him off at the hour mark and brought himself on. They lost 2-0 against a struggling Rochdale.

One for Arthur's memory bank you feel.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #526 on: September 22, 2022, 01:17:08 am »
The sight of Jay Spearing wearing a Liverpool shirt again genuinely brings me out in hives.

How is this allowed to happen? Is no-one in charge of this?
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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #527 on: September 22, 2022, 01:43:18 am »
How is this allowed to happen? Is no-one in charge of this?

What's the point?
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #528 on: September 22, 2022, 03:13:47 am »
Maybe I’m old and cynical but the stuff about really buckling down and getting outside help just makes me think the guy has basically blown it so far in his career and the odds are he will again.

Offline Johnny Aldridge

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #529 on: September 22, 2022, 04:27:00 am »
Man there’s a load of talk and no one seems to have seen the 2 games he played.
What are you’re eyes telling you away from a screen?
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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #530 on: September 22, 2022, 09:39:40 am »
Maybe I’m old and cynical but the stuff about really buckling down and getting outside help just makes me think the guy has basically blown it so far in his career and the odds are he will again.

Or maybe he realises this is his last chance at a major European club?

Let’s not diagnose Delli Alli diseas just yet.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #531 on: September 22, 2022, 10:00:17 am »
Maybe I’m old and cynical but the stuff about really buckling down and getting outside help just makes me think the guy has basically blown it so far in his career and the odds are he will again.

To be fair he did relatively well apparently at Barcelona and his time at Juve has been harmed by injuries. Ultimately he will know that to maintain his wages he will need to impress and seeing as he has little chance at Juve then this is pretty much it.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #532 on: September 22, 2022, 10:04:51 am »
He’s made 135 appearances in 4 seasons for Barcelona and Juventus (26 of them being in the Champions League). So whilst he may have never nailed down a regular spot at either club, he can't have been an out and out failure.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #533 on: September 22, 2022, 10:15:08 am »
He’s made 135 appearances in 4 seasons for Barcelona and Juventus (26 of them being in the Champions League). So whilst he may have never nailed down a regular spot at either club, he can't have been an out and out failure.

And 22 caps for Brazil.

All we are saying is give him a chance.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #534 on: September 22, 2022, 10:15:08 am »
He's spent the bulk of his professional career at two fairly dysfunctional clubs and moving for him on loan at the last minute looked very desperate, it's not a shock that he's trying to put some good PR out there while he takes time to get fit enough to get a chance at a start. It's hard to read anything negative into it unless you go out of your way to.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #535 on: September 22, 2022, 10:19:39 am »
He’s made 135 appearances in 4 seasons for Barcelona and Juventus (26 of them being in the Champions League). So whilst he may have never nailed down a regular spot at either club, he can't have been an out and out failure.

He was decent enough at Barca in what became a basket case of a midfield post-Xavi and Iniesta. I don't think he was the kind of player they were needing either given the front three they had but he played fairly regularly in a title winning side in his first season there. It's not worked out for him at all at Juve for whatever reason but again Juve have been a mess for his couple of seasons there and went from blitzing the title every year to struggling for top 4.

We've signed him as an option rather than someone who's going to immediately come in and sort the midfield out. An option that we'll need given the schedule. If he can be that Thiago-lite player then we won't suffer so much without Thiago if he can come in and do a decent job. He may also be able to replicate what Gini gave to the side. It's a very low base at the moment in terms of improving our midfield options which gives him an opportunity. He's got a short window to get himself in World Cup contention.

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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #536 on: September 22, 2022, 10:44:17 am »
He was decent enough at Barca in what became a basket case of a midfield post-Xavi and Iniesta. I don't think he was the kind of player they were needing either given the front three they had but he played fairly regularly in a title winning side in his first season there. It's not worked out for him at all at Juve for whatever reason but again Juve have been a mess for his couple of seasons there and went from blitzing the title every year to struggling for top 4.

We've signed him as an option rather than someone who's going to immediately come in and sort the midfield out. An option that we'll need given the schedule. If he can be that Thiago-lite player then we won't suffer so much without Thiago if he can come in and do a decent job. He may also be able to replicate what Gini gave to the side. It's a very low base at the moment in terms of improving our midfield options which gives him an opportunity. He's got a short window to get himself in World Cup contention.
Very true due the injury problems we always seem to have in midfield.

If everyone is fit then I'm not sure he would even make the bench most weeks (Fabinho, Thiago, Hendo as starters with Harvey, Naby, Milner, Jones and/or Ox on the bench - or some other combination of those eight) but "everyone is fit" in our midfield happens about two days a season.

If he was a fully signed up player I think he'd jump that queue but realistically we're going to prioritise our contracted players - even those seemingly running down their contracts - over him in most cases.

Edit: I completely forgot Harvey...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 11:15:55 am by thaddeus »

Offline Fromola

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #537 on: September 22, 2022, 10:51:25 am »
Very true due the injury problems we always seem to have in midfield.

If everyone is fit then I'm not sure he would even make the bench most weeks (Fabinho, Thiago, Hendo as starters with Naby, Milner and Jones/Ox on the bench - or some other combination of those seven) but "everyone is fit" in our midfield happens about two days a season.

If he was a fully signed up player I think he'd jump that queue but realistically we're going to prioritise our contracted players - even those seemingly running down their contracts - over him in most cases.

Ox and Keita are pretty much out the door at the end of the season as well so they won't necessarily be prioritised. I think that's the interesting thing whether Arthur or Keita will be prioritised but if they're both available then it's still better for us.

Arthur was also an insurance signing so if he isn't needed much (assuming he's fit and proving his worth) then it's a net benefit anyway. When we signed Kabak on loan he was needed every game until he got injured himself because the rest of the senior players were all injured.

Ultimately it's up to the player to make himself indispensible though. There's a shirt there to be had.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 10:52:59 am by Fromola »
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #538 on: September 22, 2022, 11:40:45 am »
Very true due the injury problems we always seem to have in midfield.

If everyone is fit then I'm not sure he would even make the bench most weeks (Fabinho, Thiago, Hendo as starters with Harvey, Naby, Milner, Jones and/or Ox on the bench - or some other combination of those eight) but "everyone is fit" in our midfield happens about two days a season.

If he was a fully signed up player I think he'd jump that queue but realistically we're going to prioritise our contracted players - even those seemingly running down their contracts - over him in most cases.

Edit: I completely forgot Harvey...

If he's the best option for a particular game, then Klopp will play him.  Klopp isn't going to not play someone and potentially hurt our chances of winning just because that player is here on loan.

Offline smurfinaus

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #539 on: September 22, 2022, 02:20:38 pm »
Been asking around to see if anyone has seen the games he has played and how he performed albeit i know he is mainly getting his fitness up.
 Do we honestly think Ox is going to be played over this guy whenever he is back?.Im not sure there is a point to playing Keita either to be honest

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #540 on: September 22, 2022, 02:57:59 pm »
Been asking around to see if anyone has seen the games he has played and how he performed albeit i know he is mainly getting his fitness up.
 Do we honestly think Ox is going to be played over this guy whenever he is back?.Im not sure there is a point to playing Keita either to be honest

I'm sure Keita will play plenty when he's fit as he's our best option for the 8 position after Thiago. He probably won't get a new deal now but that didn't stop us playing Gini or Can.

I saw about 20 mins of Arthur against Rochdale and he looked decent enough without really standing out. Played some neat passes though and whipped in one decent corner in the time I was watching. Tough to judge anything though really when it's one senior player alongside 10 kids vs grown men.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #541 on: September 22, 2022, 03:45:01 pm »
As player-coach, Spearing subbed him off at the hour mark and brought himself on. They lost 2-0 against a struggling Rochdale.

One for Arthur's memory bank you feel.
 

Nah,Barry Lewtas was running the team,Still Spearing should not of come on,i stopped watching at that point. Arthur did o.k in a very poor game.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #542 on: September 22, 2022, 05:16:00 pm »
To be fair he did relatively well apparently at Barcelona and his time at Juve has been harmed by injuries. Ultimately he will know that to maintain his wages he will need to impress and seeing as he has little chance at Juve then this is pretty much it.

On the other hand Barca determined he had more value as an accounting gimmick than an actual player and Juve decided Westin McKennie, Manual Locatelli and a 19 year old academy product were their best midfield options to compete. You can bash Barca and Juve all you want but most clubs, no matter how badly run, don't willingly move on players that are truly of value for basically nothing to play worse players.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #543 on: September 22, 2022, 05:33:25 pm »
On the other hand Barca determined he had more value as an accounting gimmick than an actual player and Juve decided Westin McKennie, Manual Locatelli and a 19 year old academy product were their best midfield options to compete. You can bash Barca and Juve all you want but most clubs, no matter how badly run, don't willingly move on players that are truly of value for basically nothing to play worse players.

Basically nothing isn't €4.5m for 9 months with an option to buy for €37.5m and it certainly isn't €72m.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #544 on: September 22, 2022, 05:39:42 pm »
Basically nothing isn't €4.5m for 9 months with an option to buy for €37.5m and it certainly isn't €72m.

Only €4.5m guaranteed which for PL teams is nothing and the €72m was never a real amount but an accounting gimmick by having Pjanic go the other way for the same amount. Both Juve and Barca were then able to book an immediate profit for their books even though there was no cash changing hands.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #545 on: September 22, 2022, 05:41:51 pm »
Only €4.5m guaranteed which for PL teams is nothing and the €72m was never a real amount but an accounting gimmick by having Pjanic go the other way for the same amount. Both Juve and Barca were then able to book an immediate profit for their books even though there was no cash changing hands.

They aren't giving him away for €4.5m though. We paid a substantial loan fee and we don't get to keep him unless we pay out an even more substantial option to buy free. It's not basically nothing, far from it.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #546 on: September 22, 2022, 05:53:10 pm »
They aren't giving him away for €4.5m though. We paid a substantial loan fee and we don't get to keep him unless we pay out an even more substantial option to buy free. It's not basically nothing, far from it.

I'm sorry but for a club making what LFC makes then yes, €4.5m is nothing. We got almost €2m out of Bournemouth for Phillips to play in the Championship, it's completely meaningless. The option to buy is just that, an option and not a more strict requirement. This also again ignores the fact that Juve thinks McKennie, Locatelli and a kid give them a better chance to win. I'm an American, I think the world of McKennie. He's just not anything other than a bog standard midfielder though no matter what my fellow USMNT fans want to believe and I would be shocked if LFC were to ever be linked to him while trying to compete for the PL and CL titles. And yet we're taking on someone that can't even beat him out?

I'm an LFC fan. I want Arthur to succeed and for the €37m to look a steal. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be skeptical of someone with his track record, the current situation and the news reports being briefed. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised then crushingly disappointed but maybe that's just me.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #547 on: September 22, 2022, 06:01:05 pm »
I'm sorry but for a club making what LFC makes then yes, €4.5m is nothing. We got almost €2m out of Bournemouth for Phillips to play in the Championship, it's completely meaningless. The option to buy is just that, an option and not a more strict requirement. This also again ignores the fact that Juve thinks McKennie, Locatelli and a kid give them a better chance to win. I'm an American, I think the world of McKennie. He's just not anything other than a bog standard midfielder though no matter what my fellow USMNT fans want to believe and I would be shocked if LFC were to ever be linked to him while trying to compete for the PL and CL titles. And yet we're taking on someone that can't even beat him out?

I'm an LFC fan. I want Arthur to succeed and for the €37m to look a steal. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be skeptical of someone with his track record, the current situation and the news reports being briefed. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised then crushingly disappointed but maybe that's just me.

It's not a bad deal though if the players we did want weren't available.

I think some of our fans would have been happier if we'd paid out £30m for Tielemens or £50m for Douglas Luiz, both of whom are available for "basically nothing" in the summer. Personally I think that would have been bad business but the net spend worriers would have enjoyed it.

It’s a try before you buy on a good player who's had a bit of a downturn in recent times but still has huge potential and is clearly putting in a lot of effort to make it work.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #548 on: September 22, 2022, 06:11:38 pm »
How is this allowed to happen? Is no-one in charge of this?

Think Jay Spearing himself was in charge of this
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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #549 on: September 23, 2022, 08:51:39 am »
Very true due the injury problems we always seem to have in midfield.

If everyone is fit then I'm not sure he would even make the bench most weeks (Fabinho, Thiago, Hendo as starters with Harvey, Naby, Milner, Jones and/or Ox on the bench - or some other combination of those eight) but "everyone is fit" in our midfield happens about two days a season.

If he was a fully signed up player I think he'd jump that queue but realistically we're going to prioritise our contracted players - even those seemingly running down their contracts - over him in most cases.

Edit: I completely forgot Harvey...

He is easily better than Milner, Ox and (in my opinion) Jones as an option off the bench - especially as Milner and Ox should be leaving.  I'd agree Naby is a better player - but if your argument is that we'd prioritise a player who is a perm, but in their last season (so we're not recouping any money on from a sale anyway) vs him just because of that, then that is truly bizarre logic.  So for me, he is 6th choice (or at very worse 7th if you think Jones should be ahead of him) for a starting spot, or 3rd/4th choice backup - with 5 subs and a bench of 9, I'd argue most weeks we should be picking 3 midfield subs min so he should be on the bench most weeks.

Then, as you admit, a number of the players ahead of him (Thiago and Naby especially) are often missing, Hendo and Fab have started the season off form (and have had injury hit seasons recently) - I thiink you are being unfair on the chap

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #550 on: September 23, 2022, 09:17:01 am »
On the other hand Barca determined he had more value as an accounting gimmick than an actual player and Juve decided Westin McKennie, Manual Locatelli and a 19 year old academy product were their best midfield options to compete. You can bash Barca and Juve all you want but most clubs, no matter how badly run, don't willingly move on players that are truly of value for basically nothing to play worse players.

No - they determined that he was 4th/5th choice,  - the first season he was at Barce, the first choice 2 were Rakitic and Busquets (both arguably still world class players), and then him, Arturo Vidal and Sergi Roberto were basically rotated between.  They then bought in Frenke De Jong for big money - and this meant he slipped a place in the pecking order - and then due to salary issues let Vidal/Rakitic/Arthur all leave.

The deal they did was awful for them too - Arthur, despite injuries in both seasons, played well over twice the mins at Juve than Pjanic did at Barce and most Barce fans will tell you that Juve had the better part of that deal.

Juve this season are *terrible* - even though he was injured a lot season, and was continuously coming back from injuries - Juve did *significantly* better with him than without - in the 20 Serie A games he played last season, they averaged 2 points a game; in the 18 he didn't, they averaged 1.67.  The season before at Juve, they averages 2.27 points per game with him in the team, and 1.75 without.  So it is a total myth that he wasn't good for Juve - the issue was injuries coupled with a crippling wage bill (and the re-signing of Paul Pogba) meant that they thought they could make some money by loaning him out (also, their other options are all on more than him - even McKennie who is not good).  When everyone is first choice, then Rabiot and Pogba start week in week out, so it makes sense then to look to loan out someone.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #551 on: September 23, 2022, 09:24:35 am »
No - they determined that he was 4th/5th choice,  - the first season he was at Barce, the first choice 2 were Rakitic and Busquets (both arguably still world class players), and then him, Arturo Vidal and Sergi Roberto were basically rotated between.  They then bought in Frenke De Jong for big money - and this meant he slipped a place in the pecking order - and then due to salary issues let Vidal/Rakitic/Arthur all leave.

The deal they did was awful for them too - Arthur, despite injuries in both seasons, played well over twice the mins at Juve than Pjanic did at Barce and most Barce fans will tell you that Juve had the better part of that deal.

Juve this season are *terrible* - even though he was injured a lot season, and was continuously coming back from injuries - Juve did *significantly* better with him than without - in the 20 Serie A games he played last season, they averaged 2 points a game; in the 18 he didn't, they averaged 1.67.  The season before at Juve, they averages 2.27 points per game with him in the team, and 1.75 without.  So it is a total myth that he wasn't good for Juve - the issue was injuries coupled with a crippling wage bill (and the re-signing of Paul Pogba) meant that they thought they could make some money by loaning him out (also, their other options are all on more than him - even McKennie who is not good).  When everyone is first choice, then Rabiot and Pogba start week in week out, so it makes sense then to look to loan out someone.

He pitched up at both at just the wrong time. Barca's last good season was 18/19 (when Arthur did pretty well there in his first season and they won the league) but they never recovered as a squad from the Anfield semi final at the end of that season.

Juve have really lost their way the last couple of seasons and it was a bad move for him. Then there's the off field issues and injuries which have probably put clubs off more than talent.

You could compare it a bit to when we got Anelka on loan. He'd made a couple of bad moves and lost his way a bit and that loan worked out well for him.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #552 on: September 23, 2022, 05:31:12 pm »
No - they determined that he was 4th/5th choice,  - the first season he was at Barce, the first choice 2 were Rakitic and Busquets (both arguably still world class players), and then him, Arturo Vidal and Sergi Roberto were basically rotated between.  They then bought in Frenke De Jong for big money - and this meant he slipped a place in the pecking order - and then due to salary issues let Vidal/Rakitic/Arthur all leave.

The deal they did was awful for them too - Arthur, despite injuries in both seasons, played well over twice the mins at Juve than Pjanic did at Barce and most Barce fans will tell you that Juve had the better part of that deal.

Juve this season are *terrible* - even though he was injured a lot season, and was continuously coming back from injuries - Juve did *significantly* better with him than without - in the 20 Serie A games he played last season, they averaged 2 points a game; in the 18 he didn't, they averaged 1.67.  The season before at Juve, they averages 2.27 points per game with him in the team, and 1.75 without.  So it is a total myth that he wasn't good for Juve - the issue was injuries coupled with a crippling wage bill (and the re-signing of Paul Pogba) meant that they thought they could make some money by loaning him out (also, their other options are all on more than him - even McKennie who is not good).  When everyone is first choice, then Rabiot and Pogba start week in week out, so it makes sense then to look to loan out someone.

I get that you're trying to say why there are mitigating circumstances and fair enough. Yet by trying to highlight how Arthur played well, which I didn't claim one way or another, you're also supporting my point.

Barca didn't care if they had Arthur or Pjanic, they just needed the accounting gain and were fine either way. That last season he was behind a clearly washed up Rakitic and Vidal who were leaving and instead of keeping Arthur they instead choose to use him for an accounting gimmick and trust in a 17 year old because they must have assumed it would make no difference for the 20/21 season. De Jong was already there the season before so it wasn't because of that. If Arthur was playing well it wasn't well enough to where he wouldn't have been behind a kid in the pecking order if he had instead stayed.

And now the same thing at Juve. Reportedly Arthur was on a €95k/w wage though with Italy I always forget if what is reported is net or gross, either way it's not an onerous wage. Pogba was already clearly a long term injury before the loan move here. Yet Juve thought their chances weren't any worse off by letting him move on, save that money and again play a kid in his place. Juve could fall out of the CL spots this year which would clearly be a bigger monetary blow than not paying Arthur's salary. No matter how well he played for Juve the people who's jobs depend on competing and winning decided he wasn't needed.

Seems a pattern to me.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 05:33:23 pm by Dave McCoy »

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #553 on: September 23, 2022, 06:00:04 pm »
I'm sorry but for a club making what LFC makes then yes, €4.5m is nothing. We got almost €2m out of Bournemouth for Phillips to play in the Championship, it's completely meaningless. The option to buy is just that, an option and not a more strict requirement. This also again ignores the fact that Juve thinks McKennie, Locatelli and a kid give them a better chance to win. I'm an American, I think the world of McKennie. He's just not anything other than a bog standard midfielder though no matter what my fellow USMNT fans want to believe and I would be shocked if LFC were to ever be linked to him while trying to compete for the PL and CL titles. And yet we're taking on someone that can't even beat him out?

I'm an LFC fan. I want Arthur to succeed and for the €37m to look a steal. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be skeptical of someone with his track record, the current situation and the news reports being briefed. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised then crushingly disappointed but maybe that's just me.

Credible reports or gossip?

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #554 on: September 23, 2022, 06:18:05 pm »
I don't really know how good he was for Barca and Juve and I don't really care either..

What I do care about is that he's very very clearly not the midfielder that Klopp wanted in the summer. Scrambling around deadline day to sign an unfit player on loan was just shocking planning.

Even if we luck out and he somehow because a Gerrard -Thiago hybrid it won't excuse that lack of planning on our part.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #555 on: September 23, 2022, 07:01:58 pm »
Credible reports or gossip?

The Echo and Athletic were both running stories about how he hired extra help for himself which I was referencing in the post before in order to buckle down and make it here, so no not gossip.

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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #556 on: September 23, 2022, 07:05:01 pm »
The Echo and Athletic were both running stories about how he hired extra help for himself which I was referencing in the post before in order to buckle down and make it here, so no not gossip.

Surely that’s a positive though?


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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #557 on: September 23, 2022, 07:05:31 pm »
I don't really know how good he was for Barca and Juve and I don't really care either..

What I do care about is that he's very very clearly not the midfielder that Klopp wanted in the summer. Scrambling around deadline day to sign an unfit player on loan was just shocking planning.

Even if we luck out and he somehow because a Gerrard -Thiago hybrid it won't excuse that lack of planning on our part.

It would.
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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #558 on: September 23, 2022, 07:10:42 pm »
It would.
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Re: Arthur Melo
« Reply #559 on: September 23, 2022, 07:47:11 pm »
It would.

It wouldn't unless you think it is pretty pointless having a recruitment team.

If and it is a big if. Klopp manages to get Melo fit and motivated and then tweaks our system to incorporate a player who doesn't really fit in and it works then the kudos has to go to the manager.

It will be another case of him turning water into wine and for me won't excuse the lack of planning and investment in the playing squad.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10