Topic: India - deteriorating?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Which is dumb, because that just means you can commit any crime here and flee and not expect to be held accountable

The death penalty is both barbaric and dumb.

[ScouserAtHeart]

It’s probably only ever going to be circumstantial I would imagine, but as I said before flight records, CCTV, mobile phone data etc you can piece a lot together.

We just need to wait and see if and when they make it public.

This is the part I have a problem with, because he can't be irresponsibly making statements that affect thousands and thousands of people-- think of the people in Canada who have loved ones in India they can't see because issuing visas has been suspended-- and essentially be like, "Trust me, bro".

You make statements like this, you back it up with evidence right away. He can't just act on a whim

[ScouserAtHeart]

The death penalty is both barbaric and dumb.

Agree to disagree because I don't want to derail the thread

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Agree to disagree because I don't want to derail the thread

That's fine but it is the reason why some Countries refuse to send people to others that have it.

[west_london_red]

Thats exactly what many people have been asking. His exact words were "Actively pursuing credible allegations of a potential link..."

Some say it is to try and get an upper hand in the trade deal.. Some say its because of the disaster in G20 summit and wanted to save face domestically.. Some say its because of the pressure from the party thats giving him political support (the NDP)...

Apparently he got 18% of all funding from that one single party. And they seem to be khalistan sympathisers. So...

Or he said it because it’s true?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Or he said it because it’s true?

Possible. If so let him give proofs.
Simply saying something like this is moot at the end of the day.

[west_london_red]

Possible. If so let him give proofs.
Simply saying something like this is moot at the end of the day.

I think we’re all on the same page there, ultimately evidence needs to be provided.

[masher]

Like I said, my conclusion was that the govt wanted to gradually move away from buying or wanted to limit the buying. This costs public money which can of course be better spent on tax breaks for corporations.

There is no evidence that government will reduce expenditure to give corporations tax break. This is completely wild speculation and the logic given to arrive at this conclusion is flimsy at best. If there is a reduction in expenditure then there are enough areas to spend that money on - infra, education, health etc. 

If anything the tax collection as %of GDP is at record high and yet no further reductions have been made. Yes taxes were reduced on corporation to 26% from 35% to make us competitive compared to countries like Singapore as indian corporations were increasingly registering themselves. I am not sure what this has to do anything with the farm policy but this is the kind of illogical arguments given against the farm laws.

If the government wanted to eliminate MSP it could do that tomorrow as there is no law that dictates it needs to do so, no matter how counter productive it is. But they won’t as there will be a very heavy political price to pay for it in the next elections so why would this not apply in case of new farm laws? Also as you are aware farm incomes are tax free, but no one has the spine to even bring up taxing those.

[Bullet500]

There is no evidence that government will reduce expenditure to give corporations tax break. This is completely wild speculation and the logic given to arrive at this conclusion is flimsy at best. If there is a reduction in expenditure then there are enough areas to spend that money on - infra, education, health etc. 

If anything the tax collection as %of GDP is at record high and yet no further reductions have been made. Yes taxes were reduced on corporation to 26% from 35% to make us competitive compared to countries like Singapore as indian corporations were increasingly registering themselves. I am not sure what this has to do anything with the farm policy but this is the kind of illogical arguments given against the farm laws.

If the government wanted to eliminate MSP it could do that tomorrow as there is no law that dictates it needs to do so, no matter how counter productive it is. But they won’t as there will be a very heavy political price to pay for it in the next elections so why would this not apply in case of new farm laws? Also as you are aware farm incomes are tax free, but no one has the spine to even bring up taxing those.

Tax breaks for corporations and divestment of well-to-do PSUs (e.g., LIC) is a trend this government has followed. It's a reasonable conclusion when there is a pattern where government makes one announcement and quickly a big corporation makes a relevant announcement. Latest example is import duty on laptops/PCs and then quickly we hear news about "JioBook" laptop. Of course tax collection as % of GDP will be record high when almost every item has 18% GST. And tbf, it has been hovering between 14% to 18% in the last 30+ years. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/tax-collections-cant-defy-economic-reality/

[Bullet500]

My question is not answered - why is haording an issue for farmers. It should be for consumers not producers right?

It's an issue for everyone. Price hikes for consumers. And, when there is a price crash, an example of how farmers suffer: https://www.indiatoday.in/image-of-the-day/video/as-prices-crash-angry-farmers-dump-tomatoes-on-road-in-nashik-2381164-2023-05-18

[Bullet500]

Can I ask how many of you are of Indian descent, just trying to figure out who has first hand knowledge or Family/friends still living there.

Doesn't make a difference because delusion exists everywhere. A good question would be how many here are aware about the degree of alignment between their personal politics and Liverpool's politics.

Even when people say, "Will hold my Indian passport forever", it matters little. What matters more is what they prefer for their kids (i.e., they want to give their kids an Indian passport first or a foreign one). So many families from a select few Indian states go abroad to deliver anchor babies.

Most Indians who emigrate abroad are forever deluded that they were middle class in India. Indian income distribution is very skewed: https://www.statista.com/statistics/482584/india-households-by-annual-income/

[masher]

Tax breaks for corporations and divestment of well-to-do PSUs (e.g., LIC) is a trend this government has followed. It's a reasonable conclusion when there is a pattern where government makes one announcement and quickly a big corporation makes a relevant announcement. Latest example is import duty on laptops/PCs and then quickly we hear news about "JioBook" laptop. Of course tax collection as % of GDP will be record high when almost every item has 18% GST. And tbf, it has been hovering between 14% to 18% in the last 30+ years. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/tax-collections-cant-defy-economic-reality/

Divestment of all PSUs has to happen and it’s a shame this government hasn’t done so. Government has no business being in business, it’s not their job to run hotels, insurance companies, banks, steel plants, airlines, chemical plants among other things. Again what has this got to do with farm laws, absolutely nothing.

No tax break has given to any corporation, corporate taxes and income taxes have been reduced, why is that a bad thing. It might not align with your economic philosophy but it’s has got nothing to do with farm laws or your flawed conclusion.

Indirect taxes in India are progressive with essentials not being taxed and different commodities taxed at 5,13,18 with luxury items bring taxed at 28%. You might disagree with the slabs or tax policy but this again has nothing to do farms laws.

The government has a policy of increasing electronic manufacturing in India via a PLI scheme and increased duty on imports. Any Indian manufacturer or a foreign entity manufacturing laptops in India will get a competitive advantage. Jio will not be the only one doing so. No relation what so ever with farm laws.

[masher]

Doesn't make a difference because delusion exists everywhere. A good question would be how many here are aware about the degree of alignment between their personal politics and Liverpool's politics.

Even when people say, "Will hold my Indian passport forever", it matters little. What matters more is what they prefer for their kids (i.e., they want to give their kids an Indian passport first or a foreign one). So many families from a select few Indian states go abroad to deliver anchor babies.

Most Indians who emigrate abroad are forever deluded that they were middle class in India. Indian income distribution is very skewed: https://www.statista.com/statistics/482584/india-households-by-annual-income/

Not sure if it is directed to me but I do feel compelled to answer. I am well aware of my personal political opinion and that of Liverpool club and city. However I am also sure that majority Liverpool supporters would accept people having differing opinions on topics and wouldn’t mind engaging in healthy and respectful discussions.

I have no intention of securing any foreign passport nor will I personally want my kids to have one. However if they decide to get one as independent adults that will be their choice.

I am completely aware about my status and my standing based on my earning in the Indian context.

[Bullet500]

Divestment of all PSUs has to happen and it’s a shame this government hasn’t done so. Government has no business being in business, it’s not their job to run hotels, insurance companies, banks, steel plants, airlines, chemical plants among other things. Again what has this got to do with farm laws, absolutely nothing.

No tax break has given to any corporation, corporate taxes and income taxes have been reduced, why is that a bad thing. It might not align with your economic philosophy but it’s has got nothing to do with farm laws or your flawed conclusion.

Indirect taxes are in India are progressive with essentials not being taxed and different commodities taxed at 5,13,18 with luxury items bring taxed at 28%. You might disagree with the slabs or tax policy but this again has nothing to do farms laws.

The government has a policy of increasing electronic manufacturing in India via a PLI scheme and increased duty on imports. Any Indian manufacturer or a foreign entity manufacturing laptops in India will get a competitive advantage. Jio will not be the only one doing so. No relation what so ever with farm laws.

I didn't want to talk about "Adani Silos" ramping up 3 years ago, but yeah.

[masher]

It's an issue for everyone. Price hikes for consumers. And, when there is a price crash, an example of how farmers suffer: https://www.indiatoday.in/image-of-the-day/video/as-prices-crash-angry-farmers-dump-tomatoes-on-road-in-nashik-2381164-2023-05-18

If the current system is so great then why does this happen? It happens because we don’t have enough infrastructure with regards to storing and logistics of farm produce. The purpose of the new bill was to open up the agriculture to private sector and get private investment into agri. When the country passed economic reforms in 91, with private entities allowed to freely operate in manufacturing and services, the agriculture sector was not reformed and that is the reason it has continued to lag behind with farm incomes not keeping up pace with urban India. This bill aimed to change that. Alas, it was not allowed to be implemented.

[Bullet500]

If the current system is so great then why does this happen? It happens because we don’t have enough infrastructure with regards to storing and logistics of farm produce. The purpose of the new bill was to open up the agriculture to private sector and get private investment into agri. When the country passed economic reforms in 91, with private entities allowed to freely operate in manufacturing and services, the agriculture sector was not reformed and that is the reason it has continued to lag behind with farm incomes not keeping up pace with urban India. This bill aimed to change that. Alas, it was not allowed to be implemented.

The current system isn't great at all! They can't control hoarding right now and they wanted to legalise it. Until the previous page you weren't even aware that the hoarding law was also being amended. 

[masher]

The current system isn't great at all! They can't control hoarding right now and they wanted to legalise it. Until the previous page you weren't even aware that the hoarding law was also being amended. 

Can you show me examples of this practice being prevalent in any major economy where private entities hoarded up farm produce to manipulate prices. Surely greed for profits is not unique to India - US, UK, Germany, Netherlands must be suffering from this endlessly. Heck what about Argentina or Brazil which are just as corrupt as India and have a significant farm economy. I think you will struggle do so because it’s only possible when you have a monopoly or monopolistic cartels. In a free market it is impossible because you will end up losing a shit ton of money.

[Max_powers]

Can you show me examples of this practice being prevalent in any major economy where private entities hoarded up farm produce to manipulate prices. Surely greed for profits is not unique to India - US, UK, Germany, Netherlands must be suffering from this endlessly. Heck what about Argentina or Brazil which are just as corrupt as India and have a significant farm economy. I think you will struggle do so because it’s only possible when you have a monopoly or monopolistic cartels. In a free market it is impossible because you will end up losing a shit ton of money.

I mean this was such a big case that they had to make laws and create organizations to regulate the whole commodity markets because of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Futures_Act#:~:text=In%201955%2C%20two%20onion%20traders,2023%2C%20it%20remains%20in%20effect.

It depends on the product but market manipulation happens frequently in free market economies.

In the US and Canada, giant factory farms are the norm. There are obviously some advantages to it (i.e. economies of scale). But subtle price fixing can be hard to prove when it does take place. Also, bigger players can often undercut smaller competitors in order to consolidate farm ownership creating monopolies.

In the US for example four companies control 85% of meat production/packaging. In South America too in many countries where beef is the biggest agri product the industry is  very monopolistic https://en.mercopress.com/2023/02/02/uruguay-cattle-breeders-fear-monopoly-conditions-as-brazilian-companies-control-most-of-the-beef-industry

[west_london_red]

Canada has Indian diplomats' communications in bombshell murder probe: sources

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sikh-nijjar-india-canada-trudeau-modi-1.6974607

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The intelligence did not come solely from Canada. Some was provided by an unnamed ally in the Five Eyes intelligence alliance.

[Bullet500]

Can you show me examples of this practice being prevalent in any major economy where private entities hoarded up farm produce to manipulate prices. Surely greed for profits is not unique to India - US, UK, Germany, Netherlands must be suffering from this endlessly. Heck what about Argentina or Brazil which are just as corrupt as India and have a significant farm economy. I think you will struggle do so because it’s only possible when you have a monopoly or monopolistic cartels. In a free market it is impossible because you will end up losing a shit ton of money.

If it's about whether hoarding is good or not, you can search about soy farming in Argentina and Brazil. Farmers are themselves hoarding them (as they have enough storage) to fix the price.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

A few years ago they were doing that and Kirchner forced them to sell it to the Gov and then arse fell out of the market, so it's a hell of a gamble, especially in some of those South American countries.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as your not getting subsidies, if you grow it, you get to decide when you sell it.

[dirkster]

Not very helpful comments here from a local community 'spokesman': https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66897733

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Not very helpful comments here from a local community 'spokesman': https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66897733

Emotions running high because they were friends.

[Bullet500]

"Muslim MP called ‘terrorist, pimp’ by BJP member inside India’s parliament" - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/22/muslim-mp-called-terrorist-pimp-by-bjp-member-inside-indian-parliament

If you understand Hindi, watch the video. And, this guy isn't an MP from some random rural area. He is the MP from South Delhi constituency.

At best, BJP's Rajnath Singh would do "kadi ninda" and we all can forget about it.

[west_london_red]

Emotions running high because they were friends.

They were friends but no need for comments like that nor does it help his cause particularly.

[west_london_red]

"Muslim MP called ‘terrorist, pimp’ by BJP member inside India’s parliament" - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/22/muslim-mp-called-terrorist-pimp-by-bjp-member-inside-indian-parliament

If you understand Hindi, watch the video. And, this guy isn't an MP from some random rural area. He is the MP from South Delhi constituency.

At best, BJP's Rajnath Singh would do "kadi ninda" and we all can forget about it.

This aged well

As for the party workers threatening violence in political rallies, there are some bad apples that bring about a bad name to India worldwide but I dont think thats the general party guideline. Sure they could do better to control such behaviour (and should!) but I would assume, in the interest of wanting to solve bigger issues at hand, such incidents are overlooked. But I agree, they should do more to reduce such violent behaviour.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

They were friends but no need for comments like that nor does it help his cause particularly.

I agree, not got a clue about the man or if that's his normal view. We've all said or thought stupid shit when our emotions are out of control though.

Was nice to read all of the others that see one another as brothers and sisters and are sticking together. No matter the topic there's always a group of knobheads pushing to drive us apart and it's usually for coin.

[west_london_red]

I agree, not got a clue about the man or if that's his normal view. We've all said or thought stupid shit when our emotions are out of control though.

Was nice to read all of the others that see one another as brothers and sisters and are sticking together. No matter the topic there's always a group of knobheads pushing to drive us apart and it's usually for coin.

The problem is it’s always hard to know. He’s always portrayed himself as a peaceful campaigner for a referendum on the Khalistan question (but then they always do even when they are not), the Indian government labels every Khalistan supporter as a terrorist (usually working under the thumb of Pakistan intelligence) whether they are genuinely peaceful or not so it’s always hard to tell. If there is an Indian government hit list of Khalistan supporters as some have claimed, he’d probably be at the top of the list as he’s the most prominent current activist. The Indian government has tried putting a warrant on him for sedition and terrorism but it’s been rejected by Interpol for a lack of evidence.

As for relations between the communities, like with most groups people just get along. Things flare up every once in a while on the back of a particular incident here and there usually around Indian Independence Day or things like that but it’s like with most things a small minority.

[Bullet500]

This aged well

The uncropped video stream shows another BJP MP from Delhi laughing.

Can't believe people think these kind of statements are not part of BJP's guidelines.

[west_london_red]

The uncropped video stream shows another BJP MP from Delhi laughing.

Can't believe people think these kind of statements are not part of BJP's guidelines.

It’s part of the party culture

[Wool]

The uncropped video stream shows another BJP MP from Delhi laughing.

Can't believe people think these kind of statements are not part of BJP's guidelines.

Facism is very much on brand for the BJP. Modi is reprehensible.

[west_london_red]

Facism is very much on brand for the BJP. Modi is reprehensible.

I’ve seen this movie before…

Western governments are so concerned about China and hoping India will help curb the Chinese that they will just turn a blind eye to everything their new darling does until something happens and then India will become the new problem and everyone will ask why didn’t we see it coming, that’s what we did with Russia and Putin, that’s what we did with China, before all of that there’s been various Arab/Muslim countries that were allies until all of a sudden they became enemies, we’ll do the same with India now, and when India becomes the threat we’ll try and find a new ally to curb India, and then that new ally will become its own threat, rinse and repeat.

[west_london_red]

Canada-India row puts spotlight on Sikh activism in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66818190

Pretty much covers a lot of what I’ve been saying, including about our own government.

[west_london_red]

FBI warned prominent US Sikhs of threats after murder of Hardeep Singh Nijjar in Canada

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/26/indian-government-sikh-activist-hardeep-singh-nijjar-murder-canada-fbi-warning

[BarryCrocker]

FBI warned prominent US Sikhs of threats after murder of Hardeep Singh Nijjar in Canada

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/26/indian-government-sikh-activist-hardeep-singh-nijjar-murder-canada-fbi-warning

That's a massive call coming from the USA. The west has been trying to lure India as a buffer to China considering it's geographical location and scale of its population.

Maybe this is a way of indirectly making them a pariah for their support of Russia without saying it.

[west_london_red]

That's a massive call coming from the USA. The west has been trying to lure India as a buffer to China considering it's geographical location and scale of its population.

Maybe this is a way of indirectly making them a pariah for their support of Russia without saying it.

I don’t think Western governments are trying to make India a pariah, quite the opposite, they are turning a blind eye to things that would make them a pariah for fear of pushing them closer to Russia.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

This aged well

Wow thats not what I thought I would hear, I will be honest. I remember seeing a shorts video about him being rude to cops. He is a known motor mouth by the looks of it. Southern Delhi influence and what not...

Also, in the interest of fairness, Rajnath Singh issued an apology and told that the party will deal with such uncouth behaviour in the strictest manner possible.

Om Birla also said that strict actions will be taken against that guy.

He should be punished, including suspension from the parliament and/or party if necessary.

But again, this is an isolated incident and does not reflect what BJP wants to do on the national or international stage. Some third grade MP from South Delhi isnt the standards that you would expect BJP to have as its poster, would you?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Also, if you are wondering I am defending BJP and that I am a Sanghi, I assure you I am not.

My dad has been with the Services Sector until retirement and my mom with the Insurance sector. The brother of my dad was the CEO of a large bank, one of his sisters was the area head of BSNL, and one sister with the Indian Railways. So you can imagine how much the influence of central government has been on our family (not me obv.).Even they talk highly about the standards and quality improving in 5 years that wasnt there in the 20 years preceding it. And this was in 2020.

For me, domestic development, international cooperation and a strong sense of unity is what BJP represents. I have seen it with my dad, mom and his brothers and sisters. Its not easy catering to the needs of 1.4b people and sure there will be disagreements.  That doesnt mean I support them blindly like many of the sanghis back home. Being in Germany for a 16 years has made it possible to evaluate the political scene from outside of the echo chamber and thats where my opinion about BJP comes from.

[west_london_red]

It’s really not an isolated incident though is it? They may not be as open as that MP but the undertone is there pretty consistently when it comes to how Muslims are talked about by the BJP. Just from a very quick Google search:

https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/bjp-leaders-fringe-anti-muslim-remarks-gulf-countries/amp