Author Topic: Injury (and absence) related chat (so the news is kept in the other thread)  (Read 587554 times)

Offline zero zero

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So given that, it’s not some sort of outrageous question to ask why our injury outcomes have been pretty bad compared to other PL clubs over 3 of the past 4 seasons.
Asking is fine. It's when some supporters start demanding our physios need replacing with no knowledge at the various factors at hand that gets my back up.

Two of our players were stretchered off the pitch (usually a once in a season occurrence, if that) with not even a foul given for the initial challenge. How we've been refereed is a factor in our injury list and nothing to do with our physios.

Offline Knight

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Asking is fine. It's when some supporters start demanding our physios need replacing with no knowledge at the various factors at hand that gets my back up.

Two of our players were stretchered off the pitch (usually a once in a season occurrence, if that) with not even a foul given for the initial challenge. How we've been refereed is a factor in our injury list and nothing to do with our physios.

This is true and a good rebuke to me personally because in frustration at hearing Dom and Salah were out  of the league cup final I made a flippant comment like this.

Re the refeeering, I’m sure there’s something to this, Caicedo’s foul was an ‘orange’ card at least for me in that they’re sometimes given as yellows and sometimes as reds and the ref gave neither. That said I still can’t decide if the Jones one was a foul and the ref played advantage on the Grav one. A bad advantage yes given we immediately lost the ball.

Offline Knight

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Yo. Let's dispell some myths.

Myth 1. Players are robots. Return to play estimates are estimates. We're just sacks of meat and sometimes things go unexpectedly. There are no hard boundaries in the body. You can't point at a muscle tear and go yep thats a grade X, it's a diagnosis made from a combination of subjective and objective measures. Sometimes these are wrong but it's no ones fault. Sometimes the manager and coaches don't understand the subtle detail of a condition so use language that we shouldnt take as verbatim

Myth 2. Players are returning too soon. See point 1. You could sit them out for extra time to be extra sure but there's a balance between that and them missing even more games. Also the longer you are out the more you lose that top end "match" fitness. People blame the physios for some reason, when the physiotherapists are not mind readers. Players want to play. Players lie about how they feel. Players and physios are human and the best ones work together with trust. The physios want the team to win too. The greatest risk factor of injury is previous injury. We can't turn back the clock. They are now less robust statistically even if theyre healed. The players have to hit certain milestones to be allowed to return in a phased way. If they hit the milestone they progress and see how their body reacts.

Myth 3. Injury prevention is a thing. Nope. This is the biggest misnomer in sports medicine. It should be injury risk reduction. That's what the strength and conditioning department/sports science department does. That dept. will work with the physios to help reduce the risk of injury by, for example, doing some specific types of exercise to strengthen around the knee to reduce ACL injuries, or reduce risk of hamstring tears by doing nordic hamstring curls. We can minimise the risk but not prevent injuries happening.

Myth 4. The Physios don't know what they're doing and somehow are allowed free reign over when players return and are doing whatever the fuck they want without any accountability or reflection on their own performance and should be sacked/replaced with some magic new physios who are going to do all the things the previous ones were doing but somehow do it differently cos I think so little of physiotherapy as a profession that I dont realise that all the treatments they do are monitored by protocols with scientific outcome measures and informed by best evidence available so theyre not just fumbling in the dark but using a mix of both qualitative and quantitative data gathered over decades of scientific studies to inform their practice and even then theyre working on these biological beings who are all unique genetically and physically, as in shape and size - biomechanically, and so correspondingly need unique and individualised care, and also probably dont understand that if they were to have any respiratory caridac or neurological problems, or get old and have balance and falls problems, that I'd need to be looked after by one of these physiotherapists and maybe should trust they know the fuck what they are doing.

Good post.
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Offline jepovic

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.
A recent example is that only a few years ago players were using compression socks,.and now they are cutting their socks apart. These are elite athletes, not some moron on FB, but they are still susceptible to trends

Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.

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Offline Crosby Nick

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By the way, thanks for the OP Corky! I’m one of those guilty of skimming over it to jump into predicted line ups etc. very interesting read. I did know Anderson was the first black player to play for England but don’t really remember his time at Forest. Remember him more at United and then, I think always being part of Bryan Robson’s management team for that really annoying Middlesbrough side. Still far from perfect but mad to think how far things have come in our lifetimes.

Offline Draex

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By the way, thanks for the OP Corky! I’m one of those guilty of skimming over it to jump into predicted line ups etc. very interesting read. I did know Anderson was the first black player to play for England but don’t really remember his time at Forest. Remember him more at United and then, I think always being part of Bryan Robson’s management team for that really annoying Middlesbrough side. Still far from perfect but mad to think how far things have come in our lifetimes.

How old are you to get this lost Nick? Do you need a horlicks and put to bed? ;)

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How old are you to get this lost Nick? Do you need a horlicks and put to bed? ;)
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Offline Vote For Pedro

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.
Please give it a rest. You're derailing the whole thread.

Offline JP!

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.

Fucking hell hahahahahahahahaa
I don't agree, he'd go to Legoland. Bye.

Offline classycarra

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Klopp recruited this guy to counter the exact things people are talking about

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/team/mens/staff/dr-andreas-schlumberger

So I don’t think physios are the problem.

It is worth an investigation end of season though, like any abnormal levels of anything, like our performances last season.
well said. I also don't think I've seen anyone mention the physios, i seem to remember the medical staff who lead on this being mentioned by some.

this thread is pretty fascinating in how it's so emotive though - why are so many so fucking angry at other supporters?!* ;D

what's wrong with a discussion going on that mentions there's been more examples of players being reinjured than in any other season under klopp (off the top of my head, very possibly wrong)?

*not including UhohAurelio in this, because although also angry it seems like it's an anger on behalf of fellow physios - not that Ive seen the physios take any flak - but still it's informative and a good post, and not the usual one liner shite clogging/derailing this thread

Offline jillcwhomever

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well said. I also don't think I've seen anyone mention the physios, i seem to remember the medical staff who lead on this being mentioned by some.

this thread is pretty fascinating in how it's so emotive though - why are so many so fucking angry at other supporters?!* ;D

what's wrong with a discussion going on that mentions there's been more examples of players being reinjured than in any other season under klopp (off the top of my head, very possibly wrong)?

*not including UhohAurelio in this, because although also angry it seems like it's an anger on behalf of fellow physios - not that Ive seen the physios take any flak - but still it's informative and a good post, and not the usual one liner shite clogging/derailing this thread

What is wrong is when people start pointing fingers at individuals in the medical department while not having the full facts. You're not stupid, you know that already so I don't quite understand why you keep saying the same thing over and over, when you already have the answer. It's a complex situation as to why we get the injuries, though some reasons are understandable, the number of games, which means other players end up playing more games than they would normally do. Also, you can mention that the referees do not protect our players and allow the opposition to be very physical on them, which means impact injuries during games have been high. As to why players get reinjured there could be a number of reasons for that, from the odd mistake by the medical people to the players themselves perhaps overdoing it once they're back training. That's the problem with discussing all this, without knowing the facts you can't honestly decide who is to blame. Yet according to some on here our medical department should be restocked!
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.

Give it a rest Walter, you're full of shit.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2024, 11:40:43 am by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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What is wrong is when people start pointing fingers at individuals in the medical department while not having the full facts. You're not stupid, you know that already so I don't quite understand why you keep saying the same thing over and over, when you already have the answer. It's a complex situation as to why we get the injuries, though some reasons are understandable, the number of games, which means other players end up playing more games than they would normally do. Also, you can mention that the referees do not protect our players and allow the opposition to be very physical on them, which means impact injuries during games have been high. As to why players get reinjured there could be a number of reasons for that, from the odd mistake by the medical people to the players themselves perhaps overdoing it once they're back training. That's the problem with discussing all this, without knowing the facts you can't honestly decide who is to blame. Yet according to some on here our medical department should be restocked!

Yeah this is all well and good but you're forgetting that a poster has been the gym a few times and therefore knows best.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2024, 11:48:07 am by LovelyCushionedHeader »
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Offline Chris~

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Are we still using that AI company to monitor fitness that was getting loads of good will/promotional articles in 21/22?

Offline Draex

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Yeah this is all well and good but you're forgetting that a poster has been the gym a few times and therefore knows best.

Do you even lift lad?

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Offline classycarra

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What is wrong is when people start pointing fingers at individuals in the medical department while not having the full facts. You're not stupid, you know that already so I don't quite understand why you keep saying the same thing over and over, when you already have the answer. It's a complex situation as to why we get the injuries, though some reasons are understandable, the number of games, which means other players end up playing more games than they would normally do. Also, you can mention that the referees do not protect our players and allow the opposition to be very physical on them, which means impact injuries during games have been high. As to why players get reinjured there could be a number of reasons for that, from the odd mistake by the medical people to the players themselves perhaps overdoing it once they're back training. That's the problem with discussing all this, without knowing the facts you can't honestly decide who is to blame. Yet according to some on here our medical department should be restocked!
i don't think i'm saying the same thing over and over jill? like you and i have both said, we can't say on here what's going on (or not going on) because there isn't enough information (and rightly so). i just think it's odd how angry so many people are!

i don't see why people saying the things yo've just said there - like how there could be some lfc staff mistakes, that refereeing could play a part, how players could be rushing themselves - requires so many people to lose their shit!

Are we still using that AI company to monitor fitness that was getting loads of good will/promotional articles in 21/22?
good question. last year we were still listed as a current client.

the promotional stats they used were hilariously spun - basically said VVD and others returning from long term injury proved the AI worked ;D

Offline newterp

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.

Do you even lift, bro?

Offline Barneylfc∗

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Oh and by the way, as someone with decent experience of lifting heavy weights, I’m not convinced at all that S&C people actually know what they’re doing when it comes to strengthening various parts of the body. Certainly in the NFL you see them doing some bizarre stuff. The establishment position (as we well know as Liverpool fans) isn’t always the most competent and sometimes there are significant push/ pull factors towards worse ways of doing things.

Hold on a minute. Are you really saying that strength and conditioning people at a professional football team worth in the region of £4bn know less than you because you've lifted a few dumbbells in your local gym?

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Offline Red-Soldier

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I think Knight is a parody account.

Offline clinical

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Are we still using that AI company to monitor fitness that was getting loads of good will/promotional articles in 21/22?

Yeah someone did analysis of it and it had made things worse across the clubs using it.
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Offline Wabaloolah

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By the way, thanks for the OP Corky! I’m one of those guilty of skimming over it to jump into predicted line ups etc. very interesting read. I did know Anderson was the first black player to play for England but don’t really remember his time at Forest. Remember him more at United and then, I think always being part of Bryan Robson’s management team for that really annoying Middlesbrough side. Still far from perfect but mad to think how far things have come in our lifetimes.
I'm the other way, remember him at Forest, forgot he even played for United
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Offline Avens

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well said. I also don't think I've seen anyone mention the physios, i seem to remember the medical staff who lead on this being mentioned by some.

this thread is pretty fascinating in how it's so emotive though - why are so many so fucking angry at other supporters?!* ;D

what's wrong with a discussion going on that mentions there's been more examples of players being reinjured than in any other season under klopp (off the top of my head, very possibly wrong)?

*not including UhohAurelio in this, because although also angry it seems like it's an anger on behalf of fellow physios - not that Ive seen the physios take any flak - but still it's informative and a good post, and not the usual one liner shite clogging/derailing this thread

Oh thank goodness, uhoh Aurelio, you got a hall pass for this one. Phew! Everyone else, except Knight, stop derailing the thread or else! CC has spoken.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Ok, the Alisson news isn’t greta, but he’s not had an operation so we’re most likely looking at 6-8 weeks for a hamstring recovery on those grounds.

He was injured on or before the 17th feb, so back between the start and the middle of April.

That’s my guess anyway
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Offline Knight

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Hold on a minute. Are you really saying that strength and conditioning people at a professional football team worth in the region of £4bn know less than you because you've lifted a few dumbbells in your local gym?

I love this place  ;D

I’m saying that NFL teams often have their teams doing bizarre things for ‘strength and power’ and that this is commonly pointed out in powerlifting and Olympic lifting circles, yes. And as for what I’ve done, I’ve thought, read and lifted enough barbells to have some idea, yes.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2024, 02:55:35 pm by Knight »

Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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I’m saying that NFL teams often have their teams doing bizarre things for ‘strength and power’ and that this is commonly pointed out in powerlifting and Olympic lifting circles, yes.

And as for derailing the thread, injury risk reduction and how sports scientists go about it is injury related chat.

Almost like they're completely different things to train for.
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Offline Knight

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Almost like they're completely different things to train for.

If you’re training for strength, which is a good idea in the NFL, they’re really not. And don’t confuse training and practice.

Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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If you’re training for strength, which is a good idea in the NFL, they’re really not. And don’t confuse training and practice.

I'm genuinely lost for words.
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Offline classycarra

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Oh thank goodness, uhoh Aurelio, you got a hall pass for this one. Phew! Everyone else, except Knight, stop derailing the thread or else! CC has spoken.
as I said, it's mad how much this discussion topic riles people like you up. appreciate your help proving my point ;D

(but please, you need a new pastime Avens - its never nice to having to pity someone)

Offline Knight

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I'm genuinely lost for words.

Then I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining myself, this is helpful, https://startingstrength.com/training/a-bridge-between-training-and-practice-in-the-two-factor-model

Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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Then I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining myself, this is helpful, https://startingstrength.com/training/a-bridge-between-training-and-practice-in-the-two-factor-model

You should forward this on to the 32 NFL franchises.
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Offline neil4ad

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I don't give a f*ck about the NFL nor do I think that LFC have an issue in the physio/medical dept. I just want to know that there were no new knocks/injuries/illnesses today.
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Lost track of all the injury updates, has Mo had a setback or is he likely to be fit for next weekend?

Offline TepidT2O

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Lost track of all the injury updates, has Mo had a setback or is he likely to be fit for next weekend?
Possibly back in training this week according to Klopp
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Offline Jean Girard

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Was there a Gravenberch update? Him and Mo next most likely to be back? Then Trent and Jones after the break?
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Offline vblfc

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Mo back for City would really help. Not just for the obvious goal threat, but he has ripped City apart a couple of times and City will have to adjust tactics to try to mitigate. Mo just being on the pitch changes things.

Offline disgraced cake

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Hopefully Nunez, Szoboszlai and Endo all start in Prague. Would give them more minutes and give us a good chance of a positive result there. None of them have to play 90 or anything it'd just be a big help. Szoboszlai came on yesterday and didn't really feature much so if he can get an hour or seventy minutes it'd help ahead of the last few games before internationals.

Salah on the bench would be nice too.
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Offline killer-heels

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I reckon Salah will be on the bench against City.

Offline newterp

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I reckon Salah will be on the bench against City.

Might be against Prague too - with the goal of getting him 15 - 20 mins.