Topic: Sarah Everard* Update Jan 2023 - Met Police rapist.

[Levitz]

Sorry but what a load of strawman bollocks - Steve ddnt say "one bad apple": or "one Scum bag", did he???

his main point was that if the murderer wasn't a copper hed have still gone on to commit this crime and you cant refute that


Being a policeman was part of his MO - In the same way Dennis Nielsen didnt kill because he was a gay. but being gay was part of his MO

'He was a scumbag' direct quote, suggests to me it's one bad guy, the 'one rotten apple' wasn't quoting him but loads of the general discourse around this including in this thread.

He used the coercive power of his office to commit this crime, he used his fucking warrant card and handcuffs. If he wasn't a police officer she wouldn't have submitted to hand cuffs and got in the fucking car. Read the judgement the use of his position is was an aggravating factor and why he got a whole life term.

“The most important question in this sentencing exercise, therefore, revolves around a question of principle: if a police officer uses his office to kidnap, rape and murder a victim, is the seriousness of the offence exceptionally high, such that it ought to be treated in the same way as the other examples set out in paragraph 2(2). In my judgment the police are in a unique position, which is essentially different from any other public servants. They have powers of coercion and control that are in an exceptional category. In this country it is expected that the police will act in the public interest; indeed, the authority of the police is to a truly significant extent dependent on the public’s consent, and the power of officers to detain, arrest and otherwise control important aspects of our lives is only effective because of the critical trust that we repose in the constabulary, that they will act lawfully and in the best interests of society. If that is undermined, one of the enduring safeguards of law and order in this country is inevitably jeopardised. In my judgment, the misuse of a police officer’s role such as occurred in this case in order to kidnap, rape and murder a lone victim is of equal seriousness as a murder carried out for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. All of these situations attack different aspects of the fundamental underpinnings of our democratic way of life. It is this vital factor which in my view makes the seriousness of this case exceptionally high. Self-evidently, it would need for the police officer to have used his role as a constable in a critical way to facilitate the commission of the offence; if his professional occupation was of little or no relevance to the offending, then these considerations clearly would not apply."

Maybe he would have committed a similar crime, we'll never know because HE WAS A FUCKING POLICE OFFICER abusing his position and powers to enable his crime who was still in his job because his colleagues did fuck all when the knew he was a sexual predator.

Read the earlier post

He is a paid public servant? So what? Las time I checked, being a public servant doesn’t stop someone from being murderer, and last time I checked, the police didn’t condone what he did, in fact they investigated and arrested the scum bag, no?

To suggest murder and sexual assault is rampant in the police force, and using twitter as evidence is also laughable.


Like any horrible murder, people are screaming out for change and banding about a shit load of either useless changes, or changes that are completely bonkers - to make themselves feel like that I have something meaningful. It’s understandable because emotions are obviously and rightfully high.

And in terms of educating boys etc as far as I’m aware there is still a debate about nature vs nurture, and If was as simple changing thr education system, I’m sure many countries before would have successfully implemented such education.

I would rather more police in the streets, giving women the ability to carry protection, and much tougher sentencing ( sexual assault/ rape life sentences as a minimum).
.

'the police didn't condone' 'the scumbag'

suggests it's all on one guy and the police have no responsibility in allowing the culture that enabled him to exist

[Red-Soldier]

Sorry but what a load of strawman bollocks - Steve ddnt say "one bad apple": or "one Scum bag", did he???

his main point was that if the murderer wasn't a copper hed have still gone on to commit this crime and you cant refute that


Being a policeman was part of his MO - In the same way Dennis Nielsen didnt kill because he was a gay. but being gay was part of his MO

He may have done, but it's very likely that Sarah Everard would be alive today.  Pretty sure she would'nt have got into a strangers car of her own will and let him put handcuffs on her.  She likely wouldn't have stopped to speak to him or, she would have at least put up a fight.  The car driving past would have seen the struggle and would have possibly intervened too, etc..

Have a read of the judgement I quoted, being a police officer was a significant factor in him getting a whole life term.


It's likely, having committed a similar offence without being a police officer, he would have only got a regular life sentence (minimum 30 years).

[Kenny's Jacket]

'He was a scumbag' direct quote, suggests to me it's one bad guy, the 'one rotten apple' wasn't quoting him but loads of the general discourse around this including in this thread.

He used the coercive power of his office to commit this crime, he used his fucking warrant card and handcuffs. If he wasn't a police officer she wouldn't have submitted to hand cuffs and got in the fucking car. Read the judgement the use of his position is was an aggravating factor and why he got a whole life term.

“The most important question in this sentencing exercise, therefore, revolves around a question of principle: if a police officer uses his office to kidnap, rape and murder a victim, is the seriousness of the offence exceptionally high, such that it ought to be treated in the same way as the other examples set out in paragraph 2(2). In my judgment the police are in a unique position, which is essentially different from any other public servants. They have powers of coercion and control that are in an exceptional category. In this country it is expected that the police will act in the public interest; indeed, the authority of the police is to a truly significant extent dependent on the public’s consent, and the power of officers to detain, arrest and otherwise control important aspects of our lives is only effective because of the critical trust that we repose in the constabulary, that they will act lawfully and in the best interests of society. If that is undermined, one of the enduring safeguards of law and order in this country is inevitably jeopardised. In my judgment, the misuse of a police officer’s role such as occurred in this case in order to kidnap, rape and murder a lone victim is of equal seriousness as a murder carried out for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. All of these situations attack different aspects of the fundamental underpinnings of our democratic way of life. It is this vital factor which in my view makes the seriousness of this case exceptionally high. Self-evidently, it would need for the police officer to have used his role as a constable in a critical way to facilitate the commission of the offence; if his professional occupation was of little or no relevance to the offending, then these considerations clearly would not apply."

Maybe he would have committed a similar crime, we'll never know because HE WAS A FUCKING POLICE OFFICER abusing his position and powers to enable his crime who was still in his job because his colleagues did fuck all when the knew he was a sexual predator.

Read the earlier post

'the police didn't condone' 'the scumbag'

suggests it's all on one guy and the police have no responsibility in allowing the culture that enabled him to exist

you are very disingenuous

[Levitz]

you are very disingenuous

Actually, as a woman that lives alone in London, I'm fucking incandescent with rage atm.

[Kenny's Jacket]

He may have done, but it's very likely that Sarah Everard would be alive today.  Pretty sure she would'nt have got into a strangers car of her own will and let him put handcuffs on her.  She likely wouldn't have stopped to speak to him or, she would have at least put up a fight.  The car driving past would have seen the struggle and would have possibly intervened too, etc..

Have a read of the judgement I quoted, being a police officer was a significant factor in him getting a whole life term.


It's likely, having committed a similar offence without being a police officer, he would have only got a regular life sentence (minimum 30 years).

of course he would 

If it wasnt Sarah it would have been someone else.  This stance is bizarre

[Levitz]

of course he would 

If it wasnt Sarah it would have been someone else.  This stance is bizarre

I mean you're disagreeing with the judge, but I'm sure you know best,

“Self-evidently, it would need for the police officer to have used his role as a constable in a critical way to facilitate the commission of the offence; if his professional occupation was of little or no relevance to the offending, then these considerations clearly would not apply.

[Nobby Reserve]

North Yorkshire Police Commissioner, Philip Allott adding to the cesspit of bellendery:

[El Lobo]

of course he would 

If it wasnt Sarah it would have been someone else.  This stance is bizarre

You just can't say that with any certainty. He literally used his police equipment and knowledge of policing protocol and what to say to make it look like he, a policeman, was making a normal arrest in order to get an unsuspecting woman into his car.

[Nobby Reserve]

To add, as if you couldn't guess, Allott is the Conservative Party elected Police Commissioner

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-58762029

[Hedley Lamarr]

North Yorkshire Police Commissioner, Philip Allott adding to the cesspit of bellendery:

Before my daughter goes out I’ll ask if shes brushed up on her English law, if she isn’t up to speed on her stop and search procedure it’ll be no pub for her.

[Red-Soldier]

of course he would 

If it wasnt Sarah it would have been someone else.  This stance is bizarre

[Kenny's Jacket]

I mean you're disagreeing with the judge, but I'm sure you know best,

“Self-evidently, it would need for the police officer to have used his role as a constable in a critical way to facilitate the commission of the offence; if his professional occupation was of little or no relevance to the offending, then these considerations clearly would not apply.

Im not disagreeing with the judge though

this was a planed rape, hes a rapist its what they do.  He was determined to rape and he did, the police angle was just a means to an end

The defendant spent at least a month travelling to London to research how best to commit
these crimes"
"

[rob1966]

You just can't say that with any certainty. He literally used his police equipment and knowledge of policing protocol and what to say to make it look like he, a policeman, was making a normal arrest in order to get an unsuspecting woman into his car.

You can't say with absolute certainty no, but Ted Bundy managed to do come up with a method of wearing a cast to lure women to his car before abducting them. He meticulously researched the areas and knew police procedures. I'm sure this sick fuck could have done the same.

[Kenny's Jacket]

You can't say with absolute certainty no, but Ted Bundy managed to do come up with a method of wearing a cast to lure women to his car before abducting them. I'm sure this sick fuck could have done the same.

exactly
or just found a different MO

plenty of women have been raped by  men who weren't a copper, or pretending to be

The judge said it was planned well in advance

not just a case of lets exploit the situation Ive just found myself in

[El Lobo]

exactly
or just found a different MO

plenty of women have been raped by  men who weren't a copper, or pretending to be

The judge said it was planned well in advance

not just a case of lets exploit the situation Ive just found myself in

I genuinely dont even know what point you're trying to make. His position as a policeman was integral to what he did to that poor woman. That 'he probably would have done it even if he wasn't a copper' isn't really the point. Like you say, it was planned well in advance, it wasn't spur of the moment. It was planned knowing how to use his position to his advantage, having access to police equipment. That's the whole point.

[John C]

This actually contextualises how huge the problem is and how out of touch the senior leaders are over the people who are supposed to keep us safe.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I genuinely dont even know what point you're trying to make. His position as a policeman was integral to what he did to that poor woman. That 'he probably would have done it even if he wasn't a copper' isn't really the point. Like you say, it was planned well in advance, it wasn't spur of the moment. It was planned knowing how to use his position to his advantage, having access to police equipment. That's the whole point.

He bought part of the wherewithal to handcuff his victim (a
police standard issue handcuff key was purchased from Amazon on 10 February

We can all get stuff from Amazon



my point was that Im disagreeing with someone who holds an  opposing view

[TSC]

North Yorkshire Police Commissioner, Philip Allott adding to the cesspit of bellendery:

https://news.sky.com/story/sarah-everard-murder-backlash-as-north-yorkshire-police-commissioner-says-victim-should-not-have-submitted-to-false-arrest-12423202

[Zeb]

He bought part of the wherewithal to handcuff his victim (a
police standard issue handcuff key was purchased from Amazon on 10 February

We can all get stuff from Amazon



my point was that Im disagreeing with someone who holds an  opposing view

Point isn't that someone couldn't dress up and pretend, it's that there were warning signs there for the police that something wasn't right there with him and nothing was done at the time. If you read the judge's verdict, he praises how those police on the case worked their backsides off to put him away too, so it's not that either. It's the culture where signs are missed, or brushed over, because people don't want to rock the boat. The EHRC looked into the Met a few years back and they noticed it, saying you may not be breaking equalities law but the way the system is working there's a real risk of serious issues being missed because of things like a misguided sense of where loyalty should be. Can see one of the fallouts from this case now where a Whatsapp group this man was in with other police officers has now led to more police officers being charged for what they were saying and sharing in it, but this is after one of them has gone on and raped and murdered a woman.

[Kenny's Jacket]

https://news.sky.com/story/sarah-everard-murder-backlash-as-north-yorkshire-police-commissioner-says-victim-should-not-have-submitted-to-false-arrest-12423202

 

[Crosby Nick]

Point isn't that someone couldn't dress up and pretend, it's that there were warning signs there for the police that something wasn't right there with him and nothing was done at the time. If you read the judge's verdict, he praises how those police on the case worked their backsides off to put him away too, so it's not that either. It's the culture where signs are missed, or brushed over, because people don't want to rock the boat. The EHRC looked into the Met a few years back and they noticed it, saying you may not be breaking equalities law but the way the system is working there's a real risk of serious issues being missed because of things like a misguided sense of where loyalty should be. Can see one of the fallouts from this case now where a Whatsapp group this man was in with other police officers has now led to more police officers being charged for what they were saying and sharing in it, but this is after one of them has gone on and raped and murdered a woman.

Wonder if that’s linked to him restoring his phone to factory settings just before he was arrested.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Point isn't that someone couldn't dress up and pretend, it's that there were warning signs there for the police that something wasn't right there with him and nothing was done at the time. If you read the judge's verdict, he praises how those police on the case worked their backsides off to put him away too, so it's not that either. It's the culture where signs are missed, or brushed over, because people don't want to rock the boat. The EHRC looked into the Met a few years back and they noticed it, saying you may not be breaking equalities law but the way the system is working there's a real risk of serious issues being missed because of things like a misguided sense of where loyalty should be. Can see one of the fallouts from this case now where a Whatsapp group this man was in with other police officers has now led to more police officers being charged for what they were saying and sharing in it, but this is after one of them has gone on and raped and murdered a woman.

Agree with all that.


I think in this specific case the rapists immediate superiors need to be blamed more than Dick.
Im not defending her but those who worked more closely with him are more to blame than someone who is in charge of the entire met

[Welshred]

With Dick though its not just this case, she's been in charge of a litany of disasters for the Met and her incompetence has shown from the day she was appointed. She's been useless and needs to go.

[Red-Soldier]

Agree with all that.


I think in this specific case the rapists immediate superiors need to be blamed more than Dick.
Im not defending her but those who worked more closely with him are more to blame than someone who is in charge of the entire met

Do you know what institutional means?

[Millie]

Agree with all that.


I think in this specific case the rapists immediate superiors need to be blamed more than Dick.
Im not defending her but those who worked more closely with him are more to blame than someone who is in charge of the entire met

Nah - the buck stops with her.

[rob1966]

Nah - the buck stops with her.

It does, but he's right in that those who worked with him have to take a lot of them blame. Its one thing in a normal workplace to label someone rapist, but the coppers should act. Coppers will turn on their own at times, I used to know a Merseyside copper and he told us a tale of one PC that was hated, they did a house raid and he was basically left to get battered by some huge fella in a bedroom.

[Red-Soldier]

Met officers investigated over Couzens WhatsApp group are still on duty

Exclusive: under-fire force places two police officers on restricted duties, while other forces suspend officers

Two Metropolitan police officers allegedly involved in a chat group that included Wayne Couzens that swapped alleged misogynistic and racist messages have been left on duty after being placed under criminal investigation, the Guardian has learned.

The two Met officers are said to have been part of a WhatsApp group involving constables from three forces that is under investigation after Couzens’s phone was seized following his arrest for the murder of Sarah Everard in March.

The Met’s decision contrasts with the actions of the other forces, which decided to suspend their officers – who faced less serious allegations – removing them from their workplaces while the investigation continues.

Two former police chiefs criticised the decision, which has emerged as the Met reels from revelations about how Couzens abused his position toabduct and kill Everard.

Sue Fish, a former chief constable of Nottinghamshire, said: “That beggars belief. It sends the most appalling message. That clearly demonstrates the Met does not get it … does not get the seriousness.”

The Met said its officers, who are under investigation, had been placed on restricted duties.

In all, two constables and a former officer with the Met are under criminal investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct over the message group. Another Met officer is under investigation for potential disciplinary and gross misconduct offences, as are an officer with the Norfolk force and one with the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, which Couzens served with until he transferred to the Met in 2018.

Messages on the WhatsApp group involving police officers included alleged offensive and abusive terms about women. Messages recovered so far by investigators began in March 2019, two years before Couzens murdered Everard.

Brian Paddick, a former Met deputy assistant commissioner and now the Liberal Democrats’ home affairs spokesperson in the House of Lords, said his former force risked appearing not to take the issues seriously enough.

“If I were still in the Met, I would be looking for every opportunity to reassure women in particular that we take this very seriously, and that does not appear to be the message the Met is sending at the moment,” he said.

A Norfolk police spokesperson said: “We’re fully cooperating with the Independent Office for Police Conduct in the course of their investigation. We can confirm the officer has been suspended from duty while the allegations are under investigation.”

The Civil Nuclear Constabulary (CNC) confirmed that one of its officers was subject to an IOPC investigation in relation to being part of the group.

“The officer in question was suspended from duty in August as soon as we were informed of the IOPC investigation. The CNC took the decision that as these allegations related to the conduct of this officer, it was appropriate to suspend him from duty. There is no distinction between a criminal investigation or one centred solely on conduct, each case is dealt with on a subjective case-by-case basis.”

The IOPC said of its investigation: “They are being investigated for gross misconduct for allegedly sending messages of a discriminatory and/or inappropriate nature, and for allegedly failing to challenge the messages sent by the others.

“Two of the MPS [Met] officers and the former MPS officer have also been notified that they are being criminally investigated for improper use of the public electronic communications network under section 127 of the Communications Act.”

Fish said the Met had to do more to rebuild trust with the public, which she said was “shattered”.

The CNC said it had found no evidence that Couzens was nicknamed “the rapist” by colleagues in the force. A spokesperson said: “The CNC has no record of any concerns about his conduct raised by colleagues and no recorded complaints or allegations made against him. To date I don’t believe either the CNC or the Met have been able to find any confirmation that this was indeed a name used to describe him by colleagues.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/met-officers-investigated-over-couzens-whatsapp-group-are-still-on-duty

[Snail]

I’m absolutely sickened by all of it, and sick to death of being scared.

[Welshred]

Met officers investigated over Couzens WhatsApp group are still on duty

Exclusive: under-fire force places two police officers on restricted duties, while other forces suspend officers

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/met-officers-investigated-over-couzens-whatsapp-group-are-still-on-duty

This is why the buck stops with Dick because even if their superiors put them on restricted duties she should be smashing the doors down and telling them to suspend them fully whilst under investigation. There's no way either of those officers should be working right now!

[Zeb]

Agree with all that.


I think in this specific case the rapists immediate superiors need to be blamed more than Dick.
Im not defending her but those who worked more closely with him are more to blame than someone who is in charge of the entire met

If it's a culture problem then that's set from the top of the organisation, isn't it? Lead is set there. If you're not fussed then it continues because people see it in your words and how you deal with things, if you are wanting something to change then you set the example to change it and enable others below you to follow through on it. Don't know. It's just one part of it, isn't it? Although I suppose that can be applied across society, especially to men with regards to violence against women.

[Levitz]

Nah - the buck stops with her.

it's the whole culture of the police that starts at the top. It's not just this incidence, that's the point. There is a wide culture of misogyny and racism in the police which has consequences for how we are policed, what crimes are prosecuted and taken seriously and how victims are treated. She should resign. I mean she should never have been appointed in the first place given her role in the Jean Charles De Menezes killing but that's a whole other issue.

[Kenny's Jacket]

If it's a culture problem then that's set from the top of the organisation, isn't it? Lead is set there. If you're not fussed then it continues because people see it in your words and how you deal with things, if you are wanting something to change then you set the example to change it and enable others below you to follow through on it. Don't know. It's just one part of it, isn't it? Although I suppose that can be applied across society, especially to men with regards to violence against women.

But his immediate superiors will know all about him. Dick wouldnt have

[TSC]

But his immediate superiors will know all about him. Dick wouldnt have

If that’s the case then that’s an internal problem within the Met.  As with any organisation the CEO has ultimate accountability and responsibility.

[rob1966]

If that’s the case then that’s an internal problem within the Met.  As with any organisation the CEO has ultimate accountability and responsibility.

I doubt our CEO knows me from Adam nor gives a shit about dealing with any disciplinary action I might need, that is what he pays my director for.

[BobOnATank]

I doubt our CEO knows me from Adam nor gives a shit about dealing with any disciplinary action I might need, that is what he pays my director for.

That's delegation of responsibility not abdication. If there was major organisational malpractice, cultural issues, illegal activity etc. your CEO would go, possibly to jail. Dick has overseen this and many disasters so should be booted out of her job - only a few months ago she was in denial about any kind of racism in her ranks and now all this including assaulting women attending a peaceful vigil, its gobsmacking! But its the weekend so Johnson will already be on the bottle for the weekend, Patel will probably have a immigration story for tomorrows press...

[Kenny's Jacket]

I doubt our CEO knows me from Adam nor gives a shit about dealing with any disciplinary action I might need, that is what he pays my director for.

Was going to say the same thing, my CEO is in London, monitoring my behaviour will be down to the director of our office

[Circa1892]

Was going to say the same thing, my CEO is in London, monitoring my behaviour will be down to the director of our office

Yes, but if there’s awful behaviour in every office and a pattern of it, then it becomes the CEOs problem.

And even if it is just an isolated thing - you do something that becomes the biggest story in the country, and your company has seven months to prepare a response - the CEO is very much involved.

[scatman]

yes your CEO might not know either of you but I bet if someone in your department raped and murdered someone and then the media was talking about the rest of you in that department were on a whatsapp group with the murderer exchanging those kind of messages, I'm pretty sure the CEO would knocking down the door of your director for not suspending any of you.

[12C]

But his immediate superiors will know all about him. Dick wouldnt have

Fucks sake
How many fuck ups and coverups does it take for Patel to say “you’re shit, you’re sacked,”
But then Dick knows where the Russian inquiry, Johnson shagging Arcuri inquiry, the Leave inquiry and all the other inquiries are up to

[12C]

Yes, but if there’s awful behaviour in every office and a pattern of it, then it becomes the CEOs problem.

And even if it is just an isolated thing - you do something that becomes the biggest story in the country, and your company has seven months to prepare a response - the CEO is very much involved.

Dick denied the report which said the Met was corrupt despite it reporting she refused to co-operate