Topic: HBO/Sky Atlantic - Succession

[Alan_X]

Some great comments in here. I’ve watched the finale a couple of times and it’s fantastic. And then I watched Season 1, Episode 1 and it’s all there. It was always going to end this way.

Spoiler

a few observations:

The importance of a magazine. S1 E1 - Logan looks at the cover with Ken anointed as his successor and pulls back. Finale - Lucas looks at the cartoon of Shiv as puppet master and pulls back.

Feet on the desk.  S1 E1 - Ken putting his feet on the desk and taking them off when Logan walks in. Finale - Kendall puts his feet on Logan’s desk in front of Roman and Shiv.

Tom and Greg. At ‘the game’ in S1 E1 Tom is the outsider desperately seeking approval from the Roys and sees Greg as the Roy he can shit on.  Finale - Tom has beaten the Roy kids to the big job but keeps his pet Roy.

No one ‘grows’ (apart from Roman perhaps). Someone posted that they like programmes to follow the rules. In classics Hollywood/US tv writing there’s a three act story arc. Act 1 - character is shown to be missing something emotionally. Act 2 something happens to bring character low. Act 3 - realisation and growing from experience. In Succession the people you see in the first episode are the people you see at the end.

Roman is the fuck up who thinks he wants to run the company to please his Dad but doesn’t really care.

Shiv is similar she has real ability but her heart is elsewhere and the overt misogyny of the business world means the power of women is behind the scenes.

Kendall - poor Kendall. He starts the series trying to be his Dad and even when he thinks he’s winning he’s failing. The moment at the very start when the camera cuts to him singing rap weakly in his headphones is Kendall all over.

And watching Brian Cox in that first season underlines the reason Jesse Armstrong killed off Logan in episode 3. He’s such a presence he had to leave the stage to allow the stories of Kendall, Shiv and Roman to play out.

Might write more at the weekend.

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[The G in Gerrard]

Spoiler

I recently binged The Last Kingdom, so it was nice to see one-shot  Uhtred, father of Uhtred triumph.

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I am well confused by this

[Lusty]

Spoiler

I recently binged The Last Kingdom, so it was nice to see one-shot  Uhtred, father of Uhtred triumph.

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Wrecked my head when I saw him in that.  Kind of ruined the Last Kingdom for me because I couldn't get my head around the idea of Tom from Succession fending off the viking hordes.

[lionel_messias]

Spoiler

Stuck the landing, as many have said. That season is 10/10, up there with the very best ever.
I don't hate Shiv as much as some but it is clear she is badly damaged goods but one smart cookie as well. I think she deep down recognised that
Kendall is a phoney. He does all the corporate speak and can be smooth at times but does not have "it". He was so desperate to be CEO, he would lie and beg and do anything and I think that's what tipped her over the edge. They say great leaders never make it about themselves and that is Kendall's downfall. He wanted to be the King to make up for the lack of his Dad's approval in life. Roman is similar but hides his therapy issues far less effectively in public than Kendall.


The scene with the trio in league together and messing around in their Mum's kitchen was nice to watch though. Makes you remember some of the maker's involvement in Peepshow; freewheeling, natural comedy and scenes.


Tom? A fitting end for the guy who pledged all to Logan. He sucked every member to rise up in the game and yes get's the big job but bittersweet as Matson doesn't really want any of his ideas or say. He's a patsy and a sop to the American markets.


The video footage farewell to Logan - was beautifully done as well. This series was an American classic overall and very unsual, to save the best run of episodes for the final season. Will be missed, bigtime.

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[BarryCrocker]

Some insight into the finale.

Spoiler

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/lkiKn9u0bEQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/lkiKn9u0bEQ</a>

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[ljycb]

Fantastic post, @Alan_X. What a show!

[Ray K]

Sarah Snook posted on IG of her watching the finale with her new baby. Tom is looking very suspiciously at the baby too 

[Alan_X]

Well, not necessarily exactly like that, but just something that wasn’t more of the same sibling backstabbing at an important vote.

But that’s the show.

[RedSince86]

I've seen this flaoting around the Interweb.

Spoiler

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[Alan_X]

I agree with whoever said we should just label the thread a spoiler zone and post freely, what kind of dingus clicks on a TV show thread the day after a finale if they're just about to watch it? Anyway, apparently baseball nerds picked the ending

Spoiler

Tom made a similar play against some kid in the company softball game in s1ep1

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People come to things late. Some people will be looking at this thread in a year or two when they finally get round to watching. It happened with the Wire and Breaking Bad.

[Schmidt]

Spoiler

Stuck the landing, as many have said. That season is 10/10, up there with the very best ever.
I don't hate Shiv as much as some but it is clear she is badly damaged goods but one smart cookie as well. I think she deep down recognised that
Kendall is a phoney. He does all the corporate speak and can be smooth at times but does not have "it". He was so desperate to be CEO, he would lie and beg and do anything and I think that's what tipped her over the edge. They say great leaders never make it about themselves and that is Kendall's downfall. He wanted to be the King to make up for the lack of his Dad's approval in life. Roman is similar but hides his therapy issues far less effectively in public than Kendall.


The scene with the trio in league together and messing around in their Mum's kitchen was nice to watch though. Makes you remember some of the maker's involvement in Peepshow; freewheeling, natural comedy and scenes.


Tom? A fitting end for the guy who pledged all to Logan. He sucked every member to rise up in the game and yes get's the big job but bittersweet as Matson doesn't really want any of his ideas or say. He's a patsy and a sop to the American markets.

The video footage farewell to Logan - was beautifully done as well. This series was an American classic overall and very unsual, to save the best run of episodes for the final season. Will be missed, bigtime.

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Spoiler

I don't buy for a second that Shiv's motivation was that Ken couldn't do the job, she didn't really have anything concrete when pressed to explain herself on that front. I think it was pure jealousy, she hated seeing him get the plaudits for doing something right and him getting the big job would be a daily knife to the gut for her. In the end there was no grand strategy from her, no vision of how she could win out by voting yes, just a big fuck you to Kendall.

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[classycarra]

Some great comments in here.

Yep, this has been a fantastic thread - great discussion.

Something I saw put into words elsewhere which clicked as soon as mentioned:

Spoiler

as poignant as the scene of the grieving kids enjoying the dinnertime singalong was, wasn't it jarring to see Logan so comfortable and relaxed and even (almost) affable he was in the company of all the old board heads (plus his eldest, plus his mistress) - in the absence of the three siblings.

Don't think the characters necessarily saw it that way, instead clinging to the positive, but i think there was something in it

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[Alan_X]

Spoiler

Stuck the landing, as many have said. That season is 10/10, up there with the very best ever.
I don't hate Shiv as much as some but it is clear she is badly damaged goods but one smart cookie as well. I think she deep down recognised that
Kendall is a phoney. He does all the corporate speak and can be smooth at times but does not have "it". He was so desperate to be CEO, he would lie and beg and do anything and I think that's what tipped her over the edge. They say great leaders never make it about themselves and that is Kendall's downfall. He wanted to be the King to make up for the lack of his Dad's approval in life. Roman is similar but hides his therapy issues far less effectively in public than Kendall.


The scene with the trio in league together and messing around in their Mum's kitchen was nice to watch though. Makes you remember some of the maker's involvement in Peepshow; freewheeling, natural comedy and scenes.


Tom? A fitting end for the guy who pledged all to Logan. He sucked every member to rise up in the game and yes get's the big job but bittersweet as Matson doesn't really want any of his ideas or say. He's a patsy and a sop to the American markets.


The video footage farewell to Logan - was beautifully done as well. This series was an American classic overall and very unsual, to save the best run of episodes for the final season. Will be missed, bigtime.

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Good points but on Tom:

Spoiler

I think that underplays his abilities as an executive. He’s already running ATN and he’ll really be CEO of Waystar/Royco. When you see him walk in after Kendall has left the building you can see he’s everything Ken was not.

Tom’s awkwardness and uncertainty was because he felt threatened by Logan’s contrariness and the kid’s cruelty towards him (including Shiv). He has demeaned himself to get where he is but he played a weak hand brilliantly. Not just once, but twice. At the end of Season 3 he went all in with Logan and this season he did the same with Lucas.

He’s not a patsy - he’s head of Logan Roy’s company. He has cousin Greg as his Roy lapdog. Some people have said Shiv is Lady Macbeth but I don’t think that’s quite right. Not at the moment the series ends. It’s more like the royal marriages of alliance where a usurper would marry royalty to cement power.

In the end, Tom showed he was “serious people.” 

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[lionel_messias]

Yeah, really fair point:

Spoiler

Tom has shown how competent he is, as he also demonstrated holding down the forte at ACN
when Logan's funeral was happening. I think our thoughts on him are sometimes coloured by the comedy act with Greg but arguably yes, he is one character who has developed and showed a degree of self-knowledge and ability to navigate, the siblings sorely lacked.

Spoiler

Matthew Macfadyen has proven to be one helluva actor, in this company too.

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[RedSince86]

I totally forgot about this.

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/GCtwpy_AdyU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/GCtwpy_AdyU</a>

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[GreatEx]

I've seen this flaoting around the Interweb.

Spoiler

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If true, I'm really glad they cut that scene, would have been terribly overwrought. Maybe a misdirect for untrustworthy previewers?

[classycarra]

If true, I'm really glad they cut that scene, would have been terribly overwrought. Maybe a misdirect for untrustworthy previewers?

That's not actually the scene as it was written though, it's what Strong was improvising - so probably just cut to match the writing

[red mongoose]

Good points but on Tom:

Spoiler

I think that underplays his abilities as an executive. He’s already running ATN and he’ll really be CEO of Waystar/Royco. When you see him walk in after Kendall has left the building you can see he’s everything Ken was not.

Tom’s awkwardness and uncertainty was because he felt threatened by Logan’s contrariness and the kid’s cruelty towards him (including Shiv). He has demeaned himself to get where he is but he played a weak hand brilliantly. Not just once, but twice. At the end of Season 3 he went all in with Logan and this season he did the same with Lucas.

He’s not a patsy - he’s head of Logan Roy’s company. He has cousin Greg as his Roy lapdog. Some people have said Shiv is Lady Macbeth but I don’t think that’s quite right. Not at the moment the series ends. It’s more like the royal marriages of alliance where a usurper would marry royalty to cement power.

In the end, Tom showed he was “serious people.” 

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Spoiler

Jesse Armstrong has pulled off a delicious balancing act here. Things in this sphere (politics, media, the filthy rich) are so banal that any commentary on them can easily follow suit, but he's managed to skewer all of it without sinking to the level of his subject matter. The dialogue and the three-dimensionality of the characters, their unique individuality, are just jaw-dropping.
 

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[Fitzy.]

Spoiler

The emotional neglect the children faced growing up is at the heart of the story. It’s an incredible study in the damage parents can cause. Completely tragic and something we’ve possibly all witnessed in our lives - rich kid who gets everything they want but is lonely and emotionally malnourished.

Both the mum and dad have been awful parents - even in the last episode the three kids aren’t provided for by their mother who is hosting them at her luxury villa. The kitchen is bare. The ‘fun’ scene shows three neglected children looking after each other, making the best of things and helping each other through their collective problems while the parent drifts in and out without due care and attention for her offspring. She’s either oblivious or just doesn’t care.

The three kids aren’t sufficiently hardened for a world beyond the family; since childhood they have been insulated from real accountability and consequence which makes them incredibly fragile. The scene in the kitchen shows three children who haven’t grown up or fully formed into ‘serious people’. They’re just playing at being important but they’re not the real deal.

“We’re nothing”

Damaged.

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[GreatEx]

Great post Fitzy, really good point about the kitchen. It did seem significant that such a rich person would have no proper food in their fridge, but didn't articulate the meaning in my mind.

[bradders1011]

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But they did have stepdaddy's cheese that they couldn't touch and also one of stepdaddy's weird mates to try and get some cash off them. More evidence that they're 'nothing' but human ciphers for cash.

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[Barefoot Doctor]

A genuine quote from Mark Mylod, who was the main director on Succession:

I’m a big soccer fan, and when I watch, I really hope that Liverpool defense will have learned not to get caught on the swift counterattack. This time it’ll be different, and I’ll watch with passion and fervor, then be heartbroken afresh when the defense makes exactly the same mistake again. When you’re invested in the characters, the team, whatever it may be, it’s the classic triumph of hope over experience.

[Jean Girard]

A genuine quote from Mark Mylod, who was the main director on Succession:

He'd never get noticed in a half-time thread with that level of wistfulness. Needs more bad language and complaining about how Kendal's legs have gone, and how Waystar Royco mentally checked out the moment they considered the GoJo deal. 

[disgraced cake]

A genuine quote from Mark Mylod, who was the main director on Succession:

He'd never get noticed in a half-time thread with that level of wistfulness. Needs more bad language and complaining about how Kendal's legs have gone, and how Waystar Royco mentally checked out the moment they considered the GoJo deal. 

 

Spoiler

On the final episode, top end to a great season and series in general. That scene with the kids during the board meeting was intense and completely undone all the good feelings from the night before, their relationships probably wounded forever. Just brutal. Also thought a lot about Tom and Shiv in the car, that moment with the hands, wow. As someone else said pure horror movie stuff.

I thought Shiv and Kendall's final scenes where pretty telling, wasn't sure about Roman's though, it felt somewhat insignificant to me. Maybe that was the point.

My biggest surprise was the American people not selecting Connor to be president. Alas, Kentucky ...

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[Hedley Lamarr]

Does anyone else think Succession is closer to The Godfather than any 'gangster' thing since.  Obviously it's not as violent, at least not physically, but it's a very similar example of power, how it corrupts, how it destroys families.

Spoiler

The end scene was very Godfather like

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.

[tinner777]

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jesus, that hand scene between shiv and tom was absolutely heart breaking, she's pregnant with your child, and neither of them can grab the others hand  :'(

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[Ray K]

A genuine quote from Mark Mylod, who was the main director on Succession:

I did wonder how Jamie Carragher became a writer for the show.

[GreatEx]

Does anyone else think Succession is closer to The Godfather than any 'gangster' thing since.  Obviously it's not as violent, at least not physically, but it's a very similar example of power, how it corrupts, how it destroys families.

Spoiler

The end scene was very Godfather like

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.

I mean, the final scene of season 3 was so Godfather-y I'm surprised they didn't play the theme tune.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Producer Frank Reich says it's just a coincidence

Im glad that got debunked.  As if a Brit would know obscure olden day baseball Trivia.

[Qston]

Spoiler

I finally got around to watching it after having been on holiday over the long weekend. Just a brilliant ending to a brilliant show. I thought Matthew Macfadyen's acting was superb in those final scenes. It may just be me, but he seemed noticeably different in his demeanour. He seemed to walk taller and had an air of authority about him that hadn`t been there in previous seasons and episodes. The ending itself was perfect.

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[Alan_X]

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I finally got around to watching it after having been on holiday over the long weekend. Just a brilliant ending to a brilliant show. I thought Matthew Macfadyen's acting was superb in those final scenes. It may just be me, but he seemed noticeably different in his demeanour. He seemed to walk taller and had an air of authority about him that hadn`t been there in previous seasons and episodes. The ending itself was perfect.

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Spoiler

Not just you. He was finally free from the Roy family's capricious behaviour. He spent the whole series terrified of losing his position but that's all fallen away. Logan is dead, Kendall has lost everything, Roman has accepted he's never really been interested and Shiv knows she'll never be CEO.

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[Alan_X]

Producer Frank Reich says it's just a coincidence

Even if they'd named Tom for some obscure feat in baseball, I don't see how that predicts the ending?

[Kenny's Jacket]

Even if they'd named Tom for some obscure feat in baseball, I don't see how that predicts the ending?

Spoiler

. He got 3 players out in one play. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unassisted_triple_play.
Tom took out the 3 siblings

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[Schmidt]

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I wouldn't say Tom beat the three siblings, they beat themselves while he kept quietly rolling on.

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[classycarra]

Spoiler

I don't think I'll ever change anyones minds, but I really don't get the people talking up Tom as if he's excelled in his work and earned the role in a meritocratic way
 
Essentially he showed Matson that he's willing to be an empty suit with no personality, willing to suck up to anyone etc during the various retreats and then culture hangs.

He also showed willingness to screw over his wife and her family, the people he usually sucks up to, in combination with a willingness to eat shit for the organisation (working during Logan's funeral).

Matson got worked up with the idea that Shiv was 'pulling his strings' (per the political cartoon) - so decided to choose a follower rather than a leader. Someone spineless and weaker.

He's probably more 'serious people' than the three sibs (and defo more so than Con and Greg) - but I think people are falling into a trap if they think that Tom is serious and good at his job because of how he's juxtaposed alonside the Roys

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[John_P]

Spoiler

loved the ending. Just shows how much Logan fucked the three of them throughout their lives. Roman clearly clever had that much interest and probably would've been happy overseeing some random part of RoyCo (maybe cruises). Shiv was happily out of the family business and seemed to be a big deal in the political world. Enticed back to the company by Logan offering her the big job, only then to put up obstacle after obstacle. If she'd stayed away she'd have been a key player in the election campaign instead of stuck in a room watching Roman effectively hand the election to Menken. Kendal, promised the company at the age of 7 only for Logan to get cold feet because of a magazine article.

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[Dench57]

Spoiler

I don't think I'll ever change anyones minds, but I really don't get the people talking up Tom as if he's excelled in his work and earned the role in a meritocratic way
 
Essentially he showed Matson that he's willing to be an empty suit with no personality, willing to suck up to anyone etc during the various retreats and then culture hangs.

He also showed willingness to screw over his wife and her family, the people he usually sucks up to, in combination with a willingness to eat shit for the organisation (working during Logan's funeral).

Matson got worked up with the idea that Shiv was 'pulling his strings' (per the political cartoon) - so decided to choose a follower rather than a leader. Someone spineless and weaker.

He's probably more 'serious people' than the three sibs (and defo more so than Con and Greg) - but I think people are falling into a trap if they think that Tom is serious and good at his job because of how he's juxtaposed alonside the Roys

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Spoiler

I think he's much better suited to the role than any of the siblings. For all his brown nosing and insecurity he's always been portrayed as competent at his job. He has no ideas of his own, no morals, the ability to withstand pain and a work ethic which all of the kids lacked. He will work 18 hours a day for 20 years then die of a heart attack on a private jet.

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[classycarra]

Spoiler

I think he's much better suited to the role than any of the siblings. For all his brown nosing and insecurity he's always been portrayed as competent at his job. He has no ideas of his own, no morals, the ability to withstand pain and a work ethic which all of the kids lacked. He will work 18 hours a day for 20 years then die of a heart attack on a private jet.

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Spoiler

Yep think that's spot on mate. Competent at best, just not this brilliant mind or brilliant delegator.

It's a bit of a read on real life CEOs of huge companies and how they must be brilliant at this or that. Likewise that they have to be cutthroat and not caught up with things like empathy or feeling. It's easy to get caught out on the correlation =/= causation thing, but there's a selection bias in how these people end up there (and Tom matches it, exactly like you've stated it in your last sentence).

He is content not being his own person, not really leading, just taking the power he can that's afforded to him by status - and is willing to tolerate the worst side of the job because he doesn't care about much else (eg missing Logan's funeral, despite all his ostensible 'love and respect' for him when working/plotting to work together over the years)

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[Alan_X]

Spoiler

. He got 3 players out in one play. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unassisted_triple_play.
Tom took out the 3 siblings

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So they gave him that name in the pilot just so it would play out 4 seasons and six years later?... OK

[Kenny's Jacket]

So they gave him that name in the pilot just so it would play out 4 seasons and six years later?... OK

Im just giving an explanation, Im not suggesting for a minute its true.
Armstrong is from Oswestry, the chances fof him knowing about a baseball player born in the 19th Centaury is very small