Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Circa1892]

Honestly can't remember an Election where both leaders/front benches just spend so much time lying.

[Circa1892]

This "leak" this morning is pretty weird.

A) Getting into the habit of leaking purportedly confidential documents doesn't actually look good to most people. It just creates questions about where the documents were obtained.
B) I'm not really sure what it is they're supposedly leaking? Anyone who had an even small glance at the new withdrawal agreement already knew literally everything they're saying.
C) Most swing voters Labour are trying to tempt in/tempt back really don't care about Northern Ireland...

[oldfordie]

the irony is that as a north wales born and bred person there is/was always a north - south divide mentality fostered by the Tories and it is the tories who have reduced the funds going into areas like wrecsam when they reduced all the money given to a devolved welsh assembly in real terms.
The other irony is that many improvements to the area with various projects were enabled through EU grants.

Yeah, Am sure some may say were only getting our own money back when the EU pough millions into local projects, do they really think this Tory government would plough this money in to improve lives.
I was wondering what he actually meant by investment, was it also about bringing jobs to the area and why is South Wales getting all the investment.

[classycarra]

This "leak" this morning is pretty weird.

A) Getting into the habit of leaking purportedly confidential documents doesn't actually look good to most people. It just creates questions about where the documents were obtained.
B) I'm not really sure what it is they're supposedly leaking? Anyone who had an even small glance at the new withdrawal agreement already knew literally everything they're saying.
C) Most swing voters Labour are trying to tempt in/tempt back really don't care about Northern Ireland...

They know it's a weak hand they're playing, that's why they didn't bother letting journalists know in advance. Many probably wouldn't have bothered turning up. Or they might have asked a really tough question like 'what are you in favour of?' Pure theatre over politics, as usual this election.

What's the point in Labour pointing out what we knew weeks ago about the NI border (and knew years ago was a significant concern)? Genuinely, why bother bringing it up? If they don't bring a proposal of their own they're just acting as if they have a revelation (which it isn't), and are telling voters 'sorry, we don't have any suggestions of our own for this complex issue but look aren't they bad'.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

This "leak" this morning is pretty weird.

A) Getting into the habit of leaking purportedly confidential documents doesn't actually look good to most people. It just creates questions about where the documents were obtained.
B) I'm not really sure what it is they're supposedly leaking? Anyone who had an even small glance at the new withdrawal agreement already knew literally everything they're saying.
C) Most swing voters Labour are trying to tempt in/tempt back really don't care about Northern Ireland...

on point a would most people here fine with it be ok if the roles were reversed?

[classycarra]

on point a would most people here fine with it be ok if the roles were reversed?

Yep, generally (this one is just weird, it's leaking something that's common knowledge so doesn't look great from a civil service perspectvie).

This and the previous government have shown disdain for public and political accountability. It's in the public interest for people to know what they are being warned about. I'd want Labour scutinised too, it's in everyone's interests to have a well scrutinised government regardless of whether you like the party.

[TepidT2O]

Well it shouldn't be allowed. It's bad enough that the Jocks in here are cracking the whip. We don't want the Taffies to join in as well.

Given that it’s an Anglo Saxon name.... I agree!

[filopastry]

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 32% (+4)
LDEM: 13% (-3)
GRN: 3% (-)
BREX: 2% (-1)

via @IpsosMORI, 02 - 04 Dec
Chgs. w/ Nov

I think changes are with about 2 weeks ago.

[Elmo!]

Jeremy Corbyn was asked by political correspondent for Channel 4, Liz Bates, whether he thinks Labour would fare better among working-class voters with a different leader.

    Heather Stewart (@GuardianHeather)

    Jeremy Corbyn is asked by the excellent @wizbates whether he thinks Labour would fare better among working-class voters with a different leader.
    "I think Marmite’s really good for you - some people like it, some people don’t," he replies.
    December 6, 2019

He replied: “I think Marmite’s really good for you. Some people like it and some people don’t. I lead the party and I’m proud to lead the party.

“As prime minister, I want to bring our country together. I could reply in lots of ways but I believe personal abuse and personal attacks demean and lower politics, so I never reply. That’s how it is with me, I’ve got a jar of Marmite in my cupboard to prove it.”

He said he feels like he could be in the world of Alice In Wonderland, with facts becoming “a little bit elusive” in the election thanks to the Prime Minister. “Hence we have made this document available today,” the Labour leader said.

 

Why would you compare yourself to something notoriously divisive and then claim you want to bring the country together?

[classycarra]

Why would you compare yourself to something notoriously divisive and then claim you want to bring the country together?

I don't mind it

Weird for him to being facts being a bit elusive when he's personally been caught out lying in the debate and Neil interview, and his shadow cabinet operating in a post-truth world complaining about miners funds being pillaged

[rafathegaffa83]

Yes very good from Neill

https://twitter.com/i/status/1202670854410297344

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
Johnson confirms he is rejecting Neil interview Senior Con source: “The public are fed up with interviews that are all about the interviewer and endless interruptions. The format is tired and broken and needs to change if it is to start engaging and informing the public again.”

One of the things that has been evident during the latter half of this decade is the way traditional media in particular have been utterly played by right-wing political entities in a new social media landscape. This is a phenomenon that is being played out worldwide using similar tactics. The media's response has been to promote balance, while failing to realize that these people don't give a fuck about balance. It's all about controlling and disseminating their narrative. As said earlier in one of these threads, all the interviews with Neil should have been done on the same day or thereabouts

[Dr. Beaker]

It's a truly shocking state of affairs that there is so little trust, not just in politicians - because that's just normal, but in their every utterance. Literally nothing they say is believed. Johnson's adherents admit that if he lied to the Queen he'll lie to anyone, and then happily admit they are voting for him. Corbyn's promises can almost be mathematically proved to be impossible, yet in the spirit of 'well we may as well lie as well or we've got no chance', his adherents likewise profess their loyalty.

This is not normal. We've never really trusted them, but previously there was always at least some ambiguity, a fig leaf of sorts for them to hide behind. There was never any shame because there was always an acceptable sham that could be held up as justification. Now, even that has gone. As long as you share the underlying prejudices of your chosen leader, they can say what they like.

Many of us have said that the last parliament was worst collection of MP's in living memory. Now, just like the parents from hell, they are about to unleash the next generation upon us. It's going to be like Millwall versus West Ham from now on in the House. I don't think this can actually go on much longer. Which side is going to realign or reform first? What's happened to the massive rump of the Blairite centreground - they must still be there but noone is representing them? Will there even be a fight for who has the right to be called 'Labour'?

[filopastry]

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
Johnson confirms he is rejecting Neil interview Senior Con source: “The public are fed up with interviews that are all about the interviewer and endless interruptions. The format is tired and broken and needs to change if it is to start engaging and informing the public again.”

One of the things that has been evident during the latter half of this decade is the way traditional media in particular have been utterly played by right-wing political entities in a new social media landscape. This is a phenomenon that is being played out worldwide using similar tactics. The media's response has been to promote balance, while failing to realize that these people don't give a fuck about balance. It's all about controlling and disseminating their narrative. As said earlier in one of these threads, all the interviews with Neil should have been done on the same day or thereabouts

I am sort of surprised that Labour came out with the NI Brexit stuff today, I thought they might have tried to sit on that for a day or 2 and just tried to hammer Johnson on being scared of the Neil interview and make that the story of the day.

The NI Brexit stuff is useful on calling out Johnson' propensity to lie about anything, but it is about NI, which most Leavers (and to be honest a fair proportion of Remainers) in rUK don't give a shit about.

[filopastry]

It's a truly shocking state of affairs that there is so little trust, not just in politicians - because that's just normal, but in their every utterance. Literally nothing they say is believed. Johnson's adherents admit that if he lied to the Queen he'll lie to anyone, and then happily admit they are voting for him. Corbyn's promises can almost be mathematically proved to be impossible, yet in the spirit of 'well we may as well lie as well or we've got no chance', his adherents likewise profess their loyalty.

This is not normal. We've never really trusted them, but previously there was always at least some ambiguity, a fig leaf of sorts for them to hide behind. There was never any shame because there was always an acceptable sham that could be held up as justification. Now, even that has gone. As long as you share the underlying prejudices of your chosen leader, they can say what they like.

Many of us have said that the last parliament was worst collection of MP's in living memory. Now, just like the parents from hell, they are about to unleash the next generation upon us. It's going to be like Millwall versus West Ham from now on in the House. I don't think this can actually go on much longer. Which side is going to realign or reform first? What's happened to the massive rump of the Blairite centreground - they must still be there but noone is representing them? Will there even be a fight for who has the right to be called 'Labour'?

The sort of shit that used to be a resigning matter for senior politicians is now basically brushed off, we are seemingly just expected to pick a side and stick with them through thick and thin, well that has always worked well in NI, I can't imagine it would have a negative effect on the government of the nation!

[Red Viper]

That Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is quite the orator.

"I'm in favour of people of colour coming to this country, but I think we should have it democratically controlled."

15 years ago a politician says that and they're writing their resignation letter the next day.

Amazing how far we've fallen.

[filopastry]

15 years ago a politician says that and they're writing their resignation letter the next day.

Amazing how far we've fallen.

To be slightly fair there now seems to be some dispute as to whether he said "people of colour" or "people of talent", although I can't see how those sound all that similar!

I haven't heard it myself as I'm at work

[filopastry]

C4 now saying he said "people of talent" and they made an error in captioning.

Tories of course now saying its all a C4 smear

[classycarra]

I am sort of surprised that Labour came out with the NI Brexit stuff today, I thought they might have tried to sit on that for a day or 2 and just tried to hammer Johnson on being scared of the Neil interview and make that the story of the day.

I think the tories saw that labour want to end their week with messaging about this week 'leak' and saw the opportunity to bury the 'we're scared of andrew neill' news

[filopastry]

Having heard it now I think you can hear either colour or talent, so everyone probably gets a pass on this one.

[filopastry]

Leader satisfaction ratings:

Johnson
Satisfied 36%
Dissatisfied 56%
Net -20

Corbyn
Satisfied 24%
Dissatisfied 68%
Net -44

Corbyn up from -60 to -44 since Nov
Johnson down from +2 to -20

In 2017 at this time Corbyn was -11 and May -7.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Having heard it now I think you can hear either colour or talent, so everyone probably gets a pass on this one.

https://twitter.com/n_waters89/status/1202918406179217409?s=21

Pretty clear here it’s talent

[Red-Soldier]

That's a big swing!

He started from a long way back though.

I wonder if they'll manage to squeeze enough votes for a hung Parliament.

[classycarra]

There we go. That's what this is all about, what it's always been about, and what it will always be about for these people.

Only thing is, as mentioned above, in years gone by anyone who said that would have to resign.

I want to scream.

For what it's worth, a commitment to leaving the EU is a tacit commitment to increase migration to the UK by people of colour.

[eddymunster]

https://twitter.com/n_waters89/status/1202918406179217409?s=21

Pretty clear here it’s talent

Have to second this, it's clearly talent. I hate that prick but he clearly doesn't say colour.

[thaddeus]

Quote
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 32% (+4)
LDEM: 13% (-3)
GRN: 3% (-)
BREX: 2% (-1)

via @IpsosMORI, 02 - 04 Dec
Chgs. w/ Nov

By the time we get around to voting we're going to have almost the same vote split as 2017!

CON: 42.4
LAB: 40.0
LD: 7.4
UKIP: 1.8
GRN: 1.6

Hopefully tactical voting between LAB/LD in close seats can make up for the additional voters 'wasting' their vote on LD (and I say that as somebody who will be voting LD; mine is a very safe CON seat and LD most clearly represent my views on Brexit!).

[filopastry]

By the time we get around to voting we're going to have almost the same vote split as 2017!

CON: 42.4
LAB: 40.0
LD: 7.4
UKIP: 1.8
GRN: 1.6

Hopefully tactical voting between LAB/LD in close seats can make up for the additional voters 'wasting' their vote on LD (and I say that as somebody who will be voting LD; mine is a very safe CON seat and LD most clearly represent my views on Brexit!).

We will see, I don't think Labour can squeeze the LDs quite as much as it did for 2017, we're also running out of time in the campaign, a 4 point closure over about 2 weeks (most of which seemed to happen last week rather than this week from other polls), is a bit of a different pace to an 8 point closure over the last week.

Labour need something to change in this race, quickly, that is not to say it can't happen though.

For the overall race with the Tories appearing to be doing better in Scotland than anticipated and the LDs not seemingly doing as strongly, it is hard to see where they lose too many of the seats we thought they might be vulnerable in at the start of the campaign, they might not end up needing to pick up too many seats in the "Red Wall" to get a majority.

BMG and one other had the race closer than most of the others though, if that really is the starting point then Lab mightn't need to close up too much to get into hung Parliament territory, although Lab need a bit more than just a marginally hung Parliament as the DUP won't support them.

[gazzalfc]

Another fucking sideshow. Rather than talk about Sally Anne Hart, tory candidate for Hastings and Rye defending/condoning the use of lower than minimum wage jobs for disabled workers as it was "therapeutic" and that they get “happiness from working" we're talking about a rather unfortunate mistake in subtitles

https://twitter.com/BexhillLabour/status/1202721525423583233

[Circa1892]

https://twitter.com/n_waters89/status/1202918406179217409?s=21

Pretty clear here it’s talent

So clear. Honestly wish people like Aaron, Ash and Owen would fuck off now.

[killer-heels]

So clear. Honestly wish people like Aaron, Ash and Owen would fuck off now.

There are so many supposed journalists who get invited on shows to peddle partisan views. They should be banned and the only non impartial people on shows should be the politicians.

Jones, Sarkar, Blakeley and Bastani are shite and peddle a biased view. At the moment Daily Politics have Madeline Grant on, an absolute right wing nut pretending to be some impartial journalist.

[TepidT2O]

There are so many supposed journalists who get invited on shows to peddle partisan views. They should be banned and the only non impartial people on shows should be the politicians.

Jones, Sarkar, Blakeley and Bastani are shite and peddle a biased view. At the moment Daily Politics have Madeline Grant on, an absolute right wing nut pretending to be some impartial journalist.

No one is impartial.

It’s impossible to be.

What you can be is balanced

[tinner777]

Another fucking sideshow. Rather than talk about Sally Anne Hart, tory candidate for Hastings and Rye defending/condoning the use of lower than minimum wage jobs for disabled workers as it was "therapeutic" and that they get “happiness from working" we're talking about a rather unfortunate mistake in subtitles

https://twitter.com/BexhillLabour/status/1202721525423583233

fucking hell

[Libertine]

Fascinating Economist graph.




Tactical voting is key to push those blue seats up to yellow and stem Labour's losses to the Tories.

[filopastry]

Fucking hell Labour, could you please stop trying to make it more difficult for me to vote for you.



Ash fucking Sarkar, just who you need to win the undecideds over.

[TheShanklyGates]

Tamara Cohen
‏Verified account @tamcohen

.@KateEMcCann asks the PM why voters should disbelieve civil servants who wrote the NI document for the Treasury?

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson: "They should believe what I say..." Says there will be "no checks on goods between NI-GB and GB-NI".

Well.

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1202917287835185152

The absolute state of this. We are a long way down a very dangerous path.

[killer-heels]

No one is impartial.

It’s impossible to be.

What you can be is balanced

No one is impartial.

It’s impossible to be.

What you can be is balanced

Why can you not be impartial?

[Circa1892]

There are so many supposed journalists who get invited on shows to peddle partisan views. They should be banned and the only non impartial people on shows should be the politicians.

Jones, Sarkar, Blakeley and Bastani are shite and peddle a biased view. At the moment Daily Politics have Madeline Grant on, an absolute right wing nut pretending to be some impartial journalist.

There's that Guido smarmy twat who seems to be on everywhere aswell. I just don't get why the most rancid people on both sides get all the airtime.

[filopastry]

There's that Guido smarmy twat who seems to be on everywhere aswell. I just don't get why the most rancid people on both sides get all the airtime.

Its "entertaining" apparently

[classycarra]

There's that Guido smarmy twat who seems to be on everywhere aswell. I just don't get why the most rancid people on both sides get all the airtime.

I think it's because it's the main part of their jobs. They're always available to peddle their shite. Whereas people in important positions on merit tend to have important work to get on with.

Why can you not be impartial?

Anyone who claims to be impartial has never studied bias. You can try to mitigate against it, but you can't entirely eliminate it

[killer-heels]

I think it's because it's the main part of their jobs. They're always available to peddle their shite. Whereas people in important positions on merit tend to have important work to get on with.
Anyone who claims to be impartial has never studied bias. You can try to mitigate against it, but you can't entirely eliminate it

But the Beeb have had Stephen Bush and Katy Balls on their shows. One writes for the Spectator and one the New Statesman but both give a balanced and impartial view.

[Bobsackamano]

Just had a chat with my folks (both labour till death) who live in Warrington North. They were telling me its finely balanced there, could easily go Tory.

That place has never been close before, if that goes Labour are looking disaster in the face.

There's been a slight complication with a union rep from Islington with no connection to the area being parachuted in but even with that its staggering, its one of those places that the Tories should have zero chance of taking. They are very worried.