Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Andy82lfc]

Yep. She'd still be in a job if she deleted the tweet and apologised, to then ignore calls from the leaders office for 4 hours effectively forcing her sacking is incredulous!

Exactly. Really happy to see Starmer not taking anymore of this bullshit.

[JimmysHammer]

Framed with the RLB sacking will be interesting to see if Johnson sticks or twists with Jenrick.

More and more bits coming out, but I heard some Tory rep on the radio yesterday (may have been day before, been a bit blurry since 10pm the other night  ) trying to doublespeak this issue into irrelevance. "Nothing to see here gov" 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/27/robert-jenrick-admits-israeli-billionaire-in-donor-row-is-family-friend

[JimmysHammer]

Patrick Maguire in Times Red Box.

Spoiler

[close]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a7ef180e-b780-11ea-82eb-1588bf47a52f

Think it's nice of Corbyn to have gone along to the meeting with Starmer. Share some of his expertise on things.

Thanks for sharing this mate, very interesting to see the accusations of 'boring' Starmer are not so true behind closed doors, really like that he can be ruthless when required, he (and we) will need that if we want a Labour government in the next two elections.

Its a bit of a barrel shoot against Johnson, but you'd imagine Starmer wont always be squaring up against a buffoon, and eventually the right will get their house a little more in order.

[Dr. Beaker]

Its a bit of a barrel shoot against Johnson, but you'd imagine Starmer wont always be squaring up against a buffoon, and eventually the right will get their house a little more in order.

Their problem is they don't have anyone else. All the big guns left and now it's just Bullingdon Boris and his brexit bellends. The allegedly popular and competent Sunak will soon be the most unpopular man in the land when he has to start behaving like a Tory chancellor.

[So… Howard Philips]

Their problem is they don't have anyone else. All the big guns left and now it's just Bullingdon Boris and his brexit bellends. The allegedly popular and competent Sunak will soon be the most unpopular man in the land when he has to start behaving like a Tory chancellor.

I can still see Gove becoming leader. At least he would be able to explain the R value, unlike the scientifically illiterate Johnson.

[redbyrdz]

Its a bit of a barrel shoot against Johnson, 

I'd love that to be true, but unfortunately there are still large parts of the population who think he'd doing a great job!!

[Dr. Beaker]

I can still see Gove becoming leader. At least he would be able to explain the R value, unlike the scientifically illiterate Johnson.

I think tories would vote for him obviously, but he's not got the mass appeal of that 'great man of the people(?!)' Johnson. To white-van-man and his tattooed gym bunny mates though, Gove is just some chinless wimpy toff - actually, that's what he is to me as well.

[So… Howard Philips]

I'd love that to be true, but unfortunately there are still large parts of the population who think he'd doing a great job!!

Just wait until they see his gurning face wrapped around a pint next Saturday. The sycophantic cheers will be sickening.

Mind you it'd be a laugh if the other faux beer guzzler, Frottage, gets in first.

[So… Howard Philips]

I think tories would vote for him obviously, but he's not got the mass appeal of that 'great man of the people(?!)' Johnson. To white-van-man and his tattooed gym bunny mates though, Gove is just some chinless wimpy toff - actually, that's what he is to me as well.

Gove is Niles Crane then?

[JimmysHammer]

Their problem is they don't have anyone else. All the big guns left and now it's just Bullingdon Boris and his brexit bellends. The allegedly popular and competent Sunak will soon be the most unpopular man in the land when he has to start behaving like a Tory chancellor.

Sunak was who i had in mind when i wrote my post, and you make a really good argument (I'll admit i hadnt thought of it) that once he has to start enacting a bit of control, and start to reverse the covid spend he will lose many of the floating voters,however the hardcore Tory voters will lap it up, their "sticking it to the scroungers" bullsh!t is their meat and veg.  (for scrounger read instead the weakest and most vulnerable in society)

I'm not sure if i imagined it, but a vaguely recall no promises that we wouldn't return to austerity, so you may be right with Sunak, my fear is there's always an acceptable face they can throw forward to enact these policies, but be slightly better than Johnson at defending the indefensible come PMQ's

Also thank you for..'Bullingdon Boris and his brexit bellends.' i'm stealing that and claiming at my own    cheque's in the post for royalties mate.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Gove is Niles Crane then?

No mate. Niles Crane (David Hyde Pierce) was funny.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ypDCe1dmXu0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ypDCe1dmXu0</a>

[JimmysHammer]

I can still see Gove becoming leader. At least he would be able to explain the R value, unlike the scientifically illiterate Johnson.

Loads of baggage though, and also i'm not sure if its just because i hate his politics, but i feel he is quite unlikable.

And as Dr B says above i couldn't see White van man voting for him, he seems a bit of a lick-spittle!

[So… Howard Philips]

Loads of baggage though, and also i'm not sure if its just because i hate his politics, but i feel he is quite unlikable.

And as Dr B says above i couldn't see White van man voting for him, he seems a bit of a lick-spittle!

I could see him as the class sneak of the 5th Remove grassing up Billy Bunter's midnight feast to Mr Quelch.

[JimmysHammer]

Just wait until they see his gurning face wrapped around a pint next Saturday. The sycophantic cheers will be sickening.

Mind you it'd be a laugh if the other faux beer guzzler,Frottage, gets in first.

What a horrible thought, but your spot on, splashed over the front of the rags, with 'Independence Day' '4 years since we voted out of Europe' St George's Flags and every other piece of crap nationalistic shite they can squeeze in.

Will be sickening!

[Dr. Beaker]

Gove is Niles Crane then?

Had to google him up, but yeah.

[JimmysHammer]

I could see him as the class sneak of the 5th Remove grassing up Billy Bunter's midnight feast to Mr Quelch.

  fair shout, but that word just seems to sum him up perfectly in my mind 

There are a few other words too.

Point being he's climbed in the pocket of every Tory leader irregardless of what they stood for. no doubts (as you rightly say) with sights on the leadership.

[Zeb]

Thanks for sharing this mate, very interesting to see the accusations of 'boring' Starmer are not so true behind closed doors, really like that he can be ruthless when required, he (and we) will need that if we want a Labour government in the next two elections.

Its a bit of a barrel shoot against Johnson, but you'd imagine Starmer wont always be squaring up against a buffoon, and eventually the right will get their house a little more in order.

Johnson's now at the point where PMQs sounds a bit like the Two Ronnies doing Mastermind. Can see a change in the future there too, especially once a new leader won't run the risk of being tainted by failure around the pandemic.

I don't know about 'ruthless' so much as he's clearly not going to duck some decisions if they're forced on him. 'Pour encourager les autres' if nothing else. Wet weekends in Wales chatting Nicaraguan far left while your office tries to run things clearly not the model.

[JimmysHammer]

Johnson's now at the point where PMQs sounds a bit like the Two Ronnies doing Mastermind. Can see a change in the future there too, especially once a new leader won't run the risk of being tainted by failure around the pandemic.

I don't know about 'ruthless' so much as he's clearly not going to duck some decisions if they're forced on him. 'Pour encourager les autres' if nothing else. Wet weekends in Wales chatting Nicaraguan far left while your office tries to run things clearly not the model.

Perhaps ruthless wasn't the right term, but i would hope that he can paint this situation as such.

It wont do him any harm coming across as decisive at all. one of the things i did admire about Corbyn (and there were precious few by the end of his tenure as leader) was he often spoke about what he would do, rather than just point out mistakes in what others had done. giving the public a credible alternative is going to be key moving forward.

Now whether you agreed with his solutions or not was another matter but the fact he often had one was admirable imo.

(I honestly do not want to ignite another Corbyn/Starmer argument on here, So apologies to anyone who feels i'm out of line)

[Zeb]

Perhaps ruthless wasn't the right term, but i would hope that he can paint this situation as such.

It wont do him any harm coming across as decisive at all. one of the things i did admire about Corbyn (and there were precious few by the end of his tenure as leader) was he often spoke about what he would do, rather than just point out mistakes in what others had done. giving the public a credible alternative is going to be key moving forward.

Now whether you agreed with his solutions or not was another matter but the fact he often had one was admirable imo.

(I honestly do not want to ignite another Corbyn/Starmer argument on here, So apologies to anyone who feels i'm out of line)

Genuinely wasn't a criticism of you using the word. Been used a fair bit and fully agree it's what you're saying there about how it's perceived. In political terms, it's all positive if you're after a big signal that Labour has changed. That you can do the Jendrick/Johnson contrast and find it lacking in comparison. That you look to the conspiratorial part and the hopes for an apology and retraction of support (which was what was asked of Long Bailey) being met with a clear signal it just won't be tolerated full stop instead. Or even if you're of a mind to read the headline calling everyone who hated Corbyn a Tory and see the whole thing just being rejected as Starmer continues to try and be seen engaging in constituencies where Labour have hopes of persuading people back.

Talking of perceptions, very online hard left is upset today about the policies they've supported for years. Because it's Starmer presenting support for the armed forces and what Labour would like to do in government. It's quite curious. Similar thing with whenever Reynolds says, "Yeah we want rid of UC. But I'd like to talk about the bit which we need to do after that too." One of the curious parts of Corbynism was so many of the policies can be used but were robbed of any credibility by who presented them. Strange seeing it switch. (*Hugs UBS protectively*.)

Got the EHRC to navigate, which is in that weird place where those who'd have a decent idea have been saying 'soon' for a fair few weeks now, so big internal challenges ahead for Starmer. Hopefully bulk of the membership continue to see the need to push on if we're to get a Labour government this side of 2030.

[Zeb]

Question answered on where Johnson is trying to take the Tories. Predicted but confirmation. Very different political battlefield even if it proves to be just noises rather than meaningful action.

Spoiler

Last weekend Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Carrie Symonds, his fiancée, held a barbecue in the No 10 garden with Rishi Sunak and his wife, Akshata Murthy. The occasion was purely social, but behind the scenes both men have been meeting daily as they prepare to deliver two speeches that will shape Britain’s emergence from coronavirus.

On Tuesday, the prime minister will give his speech to relaunch the economy in the Midlands. The theme is “build, build, build” with a focus on jobs, health and homes. It will set out the prime minister’s vision for Britain’s economic future as he seeks to “turbo-charge” the recovery with a huge programme of infrastructure projects, housebuilding and investment in science and technology.

The prime minister is also expected to announce an overhaul of the planning system, which Dominic Cummings, his senior aide, described as “appalling” during a meeting with government advisers on Monday.

Mr Johnson is expected to say that in contrast to a “decade of austerity”, Britain will see a “decade of investment”. He will make clear that those who bore the brunt of austerity will not bear the brunt of the fallout from the Covid-19 crisis.

The prime minister believes that previous administrations have been too timid and the nation needs to go further and faster.

A week later Mr Sunak, the chancellor, will unveil his own economic stimulus package. The centre of the package will be a big reskilling programme and a “green jobs” revolution as he seeks to avert mass unemployment. Tax interventions, including a potential VAT cut and a national insurance holiday for employers, are being kept in reserve depending on how people respond to July 4, when swathes of the economy — including pubs, restaurants and hairdressers — reopen.

Both are acutely aware that the nature of their relationship will define Mr Johnson’s premiership. They are determined to avoid the pitfalls of the past — the internecine warfare of the Blair-Brown administration, the infighting between Theresa May and Philip Hammond and the tensions between Mr Johnson and Sajid Javid, Mr Sunak’s predecessor.

They want to move in “lockstep”, modelling their approach on David Cameron and George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford. Mr Johnson began drawing up plans for Britain’s economic recovery during a lunch with Mr Sunak shortly after he returned to No 10 following his stay in hospital with coronavirus.

Much of the detail of the recovery plan was hammered out on May 22, when Mr Sunak, 40, and Mr Johnson, 56, held a four-hour meeting in the garden at No 10. The meeting was attended by aides including Mr Cummings, Munira Mirza, the head of the policy unit, Lee Cain, the director of communications and Liam Booth-Smith who heads the No 10 and No 11 joint economic policy team. The discussion centred on the “brutal economic reality” to come and the policies that would be needed to ensure the recovery is as rapid as possible.

The two men are making a series of public appearances together to emphasise their unity, which yesterday included a trip to Pizza Pilgrims, a restaurant in east London. As Mr Johnson was walking back to his car he almost shook the hand of a female supporter. “Don’t worry, I’ve just washed my hands,” he said.

The rapid rise of Mr Sunak has taken many colleagues by surprise. On Monday Mr Cummings held a briefing with special advisers in which he referred to Mr Sunak four times, saying he was “knocking it out of the park” and doing an “amazing job”. “It was very noticeable and a bit weird,” one adviser said. “He kept coming back to how well Rishi is doing.”

Ministers increasingly think that Mr Sunak could be a future prime minister. “You’ve got a very bright young chancellor who is personable and prepared to tell the prime minister how it is,” one minister said. “I can see him being PM, but it is early days.”

Some ministers have criticised the chancellor for not being robust enough in cabinet, but allies say he is “direct” with Mr Johnson in private. “They have honest and frank conversations,” a source said.

In cabinet on Tuesday ministers rubber-stamped the proposals to lift the lockdown. “You get given a paper an hour before you go in and it’s usually briefed to the public within an hour or so of coming out, if it hasn’t been before you went in,” one minister said.

Mr Sunak argued that easing the lockdown was an issue of social justice, not just one of economic necessity. He said that many of those who have been hit hardest by coronavirus stand to benefit from the jobs that are reopened. “Young people and [ethnic minorities] Bame people are most likely to be hit hardest by the crisis, so opening up the economy safely is a matter of social justice,” he said.He has told colleagues that the government wants wealthier people to spend the savings they have built up during the crisis. “People on high incomes have been spending much less than usual for months,” a government source said. “Rishi was making the point that we need them to get out there and spend.”

The message from the government will be “spend, spend, spend”. Any difficult decisions about tax rises will be postponed until the Autumn budget. “Right now it’s pedal to the metal on the economy,” one senior Conservative said. “There’s billions going out. They need people to get out, spend money and keep jobs.”

There are concerns about the government’s inability to bring forward new legislation. A combination of coronavirus and Brexit have meant that there is little room for fresh legislation, even with an 80-strong majority.

The squeeze on parliamentary time last week saw No 10’s drive to suspend Sunday trading laws hit the buffers. “The parliamentary calendar is screwed,” one government source said. “Any idea of new legislation is pretty much out the window.”

As Britain emerges from the crisis, the Conservative Party will be transformed with it. “I think we’ll become Blue Labour,” one minister said. “Our job is to become Blair-lite with a conservative brand so we will win again.” Internally Downing Street has started to refer to the “red wall” of seats that the Tories won at the election as the “blue wall”.

Colleagues acknowledge that the more difficult decisions on tax rises are to come, which some believe will lead to increased tensions between No 10 and No 11.

For now, Mr Sunak jokes that the biggest difference between the two men has been over the barbecue in the No 10 garden — Mr Johnson wanted a coal-fired model while Mr Sunak argued for one that was gas-fired. In the event Mr Sunak won. “The Treasury was paying for it after all,” a source said.

[close]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-bonds-are-forged-over-a-family-barbecue-in-the-no-10-garden-p58bpx0r6

Wonder how long the Tory coalition holds together around that. Wonder how long the parliamentary party does...

[JimmysHammer]

Talking of perceptions, very online hard left is upset today about the policies they've supported for years. Because it's Starmer presenting support for the armed forces and what Labour would like to do in government. It's quite curious. Similar thing with whenever Reynolds says, "Yeah we want rid of UC. But I'd like to talk about the bit which we need to do after that too." One of the curious parts of Corbynism was so many of the policies can be used but were robbed of any credibility by who presented them. Strange seeing it switch. (*Hugs UBS protectively*.)

Absolutely agree, and as we move further into an age of politics of personality this is definitely more of an issue. “It’s not what being said but who is saying it”

I have an old school friend who considers himself quite far left in the political spectrum, and Corbyns leadership was a dream come true for him, he is very vocal online in his support, when we talk politics, many of the policies and beliefs he holds are the same as mine, (I’d put myself very left on social issues and care, but pulled more central by business policies) where we do completely disagree is I feel any Labour Party wishing to be elected in this country has to package the policies in more centrist language. And move leftwards after election, my school friend feels that selling more socialist policies to the population is more important if we are going to effect long term change in politics. And move the countries political views leftwards. (Maybe he just has more integrity than I do 😁) I feel it’s easier to do that once the country gets a chance to feel the benefits of that change.

[Dr. Beaker]

Question answered on where Johnson is trying to take the Tories. Predicted but confirmation. Very different political battlefield even if it proves to be just noises rather than meaningful action.

Spoiler

[close]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-bonds-are-forged-over-a-family-barbecue-in-the-no-10-garden-p58bpx0r6

Wonder how long the Tory coalition holds together around that. Wonder how long the parliamentary party does...

Hard to even decipher where it'll be when the inevitable string of u-turns have been performed.

[John C]

Question answered on where Johnson is trying to take the Tories.

Wonder how long the Tory coalition holds together around that. Wonder how long the parliamentary party does...

Interesting stuff Zeb. If the Tories want a future of investment they can endorse Liverpool's Covid recovery plan without delay or procrastination.
https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/liverpool-submits-1-4bn-covid-19-recovery-plan-to-no-10/

But the talk that some are already thinking of wanting to replace Johnson is delightful. Good riddance sooner rather than later.

[filopastry]

Question answered on where Johnson is trying to take the Tories. Predicted but confirmation. Very different political battlefield even if it proves to be just noises rather than meaningful action.

Spoiler

[close]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-bonds-are-forged-over-a-family-barbecue-in-the-no-10-garden-p58bpx0r6

Wonder how long the Tory coalition holds together around that. Wonder how long the parliamentary party does...

Certainly areas like freeing up planning permission rules are unlikely to go down too well with a lot of traditional Tory voters I would have thought.

How they deal with the financial aftermath of the COVID crisis is also likely to be problematic, lots of talk about asking better off pensioners to pay more and to lose some of their tax advantages, that is a core Tory voting group hard to imagine Johnson having the backbone to stick to that one.

[Zeb]

Interesting stuff Zeb. If the Tories want a future of investment they can endorse Liverpool's Covid recovery plan without delay or procrastination.
https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/liverpool-submits-1-4bn-covid-19-recovery-plan-to-no-10/

But the talk that some are already thinking of wanting to replace Johnson is delightful. Good riddance sooner rather than later.

Hope the plans for Festival Gardens come off really well with the housing and keeping the green space, seems so long to get it all fully sorted. Think Rotheram's got a big role to play in making sure central funding gets delivered. Burnham and the other mayors needs to stand with him on it too so money doesn't just vanish into trying to keep the high streets open in Greater Manchester marginals etc.

[TSC]

I'd love that to be true, but unfortunately there are still large parts of the population who think he'd doing a great job!!

Quite an achievement for a PM and government responsible for tens of thousands of avoidable deaths.

[So… Howard Philips]

Quite an achievement for a PM and government responsible for tens of thousands of avoidable deaths.

As long as they can go to the pub and fly of to Spain for their drink as much as you can holidays they don't give a shit.

And would willingly vote him in tomorrow.

[Zeb]

Opinium clearly not taking into account some *very* strong opinions this week.

Spoiler

Opinium say it's the first time a leader of the opposition has been ahead since they started polling in 2015. Yougov's Chris Curtis reckons it's since 2007 across reputable polling for a Labour leader. Lisa Nandy would be 20 points ahead though so meh.



From Opinium:

"Looking at seats gained in the 2019 election, Starmer leads on the best Prime Minister question amongst Labour seats in England and Wales that the Conservative gained in 2019; 41% think Starmer would make the best Prime Minister compared to 33% who think Johnson does."

"How respondents voted in 2019, in seats the Labour has lost  since 2005 only (excl Scotland):

Con: 50%
Lab: 35%

Voting intention among those voters this week:

Con: 43% (-7)
Lab: 43% (+8)"

[close]

[TSC]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/26/sacking-rebecca-long-bailey-labour-antisemitism-keir-starmer

[TepidT2O]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/26/sacking-rebecca-long-bailey-labour-antisemitism-keir-starmer

Yep...

Serious at last.

Another spreading of an antisemitic trope. 

She could have apologised, but chose not to.

Good riddance

[TSC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53207160

Kate Green appointed as RLB's successor.

[RobinHood]

So another Corbynite cabinet member has put their foot in it. This time it’s the turn of Lloyd Russell-Moyle who delightfully alleged that one of the nations favourite authors (JK Rowling) exploited the fact that she was sexually assaulted when she was younger to further a malicious campaign against trans people - classy.

I’d never heard of this bloke before but turns out he was the dipstick that shared that unredacted Labour report earlier this year which contained the names and personal info of the whistleblowers. And of course has a sketchy past with incidents of hosting known anti-semites, so we may be getting a second cabinet casualty soon.

[TepidT2O]

So another Corbynite cabinet member has put their foot in it. This time it’s the turn of Lloyd Russell-Moyle who delightfully alleged that one of the nations favourite authors (JK Rowling) exploited the fact that she was sexually assaulted when she was younger to further a malicious campaign against trans people - classy.

I’d never heard of this bloke before but turns out he was the dipstick that shared that unredacted Labour report earlier this year which contained the names and personal info of the whistleblowers. And of course has a sketchy past with incidents of hosting known anti-semites, so we may be getting a second cabinet casualty soon.

Bad, because diminishing a woman’s experience of domestic assault my stop one of his constituents coming forwards when at risk.   

[Zeb]

So another Corbynite cabinet member has put their foot in it. This time it’s the turn of Lloyd Russell-Moyle who delightfully alleged that one of the nations favourite authors (JK Rowling) exploited the fact that she was sexually assaulted when she was younger to further a malicious campaign against trans people - classy.

I’d never heard of this bloke before but turns out he was the dipstick that shared that unredacted Labour report earlier this year which contained the names and personal info of the whistleblowers. And of course has a sketchy past with incidents of hosting known anti-semites, so we may be getting a second cabinet casualty soon.

I want to apologies unreservedly about the comments in the article that I wrote last week in Tribune regarding Trans rights in which I mention J.K. Rowling.

J.K. Rowling's first disclosures of domestic abuse and sexual assault in her recent article on Trans issues were heartfelt and must have been hard to say. Whilst I may disagree with some of her analysis on trans rights, it was wrong of me to suggest that she used her own dreadful experience in anything other than good faith.

I have asked Tribune to remove the line in question.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle

He's smarter than some when it comes to the leader suggesting he might want to apologise.

[Dr. Beaker]

Great line from Milliband on Marr, "People say Labour needs to bury it's differences, often Labour's problem is that we bury our similarities".

[TepidT2O]

Lloyd Russell-Moyle

He's smarter than some when it comes to the leader suggesting he might want to apologise.

Although he actually wrote these words diminishing domestic violence himself... he can’t exactly suggest it was accidental...

[Rheinbacher]

Pleasantly surprised Labour are opposing further annexation's in Palestine by Israel,especially coming from Lisa Nandy who supported the violence dished out by the Spanish police in Catalonia.

[Zeb]

Pleasantly surprised Labour are opposing further annexation's in Palestine by Israel,especially coming from Lisa Nandy who supported the violence dished out by the Spanish police in Catalonia.

Think she had a bad day on that one. Never goes well assuming people will know the details about the thing they want to get agitated about.

[The Gulleysucker]

Think she had a bad day on that one. Never goes well assuming people will know the details about the thing they want to get agitated about.

Yes, not unlike the misplaced enthusiasm many of the more febrile Corbyn type followers initially had for the Gilet Jeune movement due to its appearance of being anti-centrist (whatever that means), my understanding at the time was that there were elements of the far right and those with wealthy interests who also played a significant part in the stoking up of the Catalonia Independence movement. All is sometimes not as it initially seems when viewing the riot scenes.

On other things, strong rumours this morning that the ECHR report will be released tomorrow.

[TepidT2O]

That report could well be .... interesting....