Topic: Curtis Jones

[Funky_Gibbons]

Stats as always are just one of many tools and a tool only works as well as the person using it knows how to do so. 

Interesting you think this considering your use of stats in the Thiago thread.

You can't watch the Foden goal and tell me that's the play of a good all around midfielder who was the pick of the bunch on the day.

What exactly do you think he did wrong?

As I said above the first goal was a combination of errors;

The goal starts with Firmino too high up the pitch which gives Silva too much room in midfield. Firmino makes an attempt to get back but puts in a soft tackle. Mane also goes too central which gives Walker spacer to attack;



Silva passes to De Bryne and Jones closes him down as he should. Notice the space Walker is now able to attack;



Jones needs to pressure De Bryne but also keep an eye on Walker who runs past him.



De Bryne passes the ball to Jesus, Jones attempts to get back but for me Fabinho is too high and puts in a soft attempt at tackle;



The only criticism of Jones there is he could have fouled Jesus at the point shown above which would have given City a free-kick in a dangerous position. Considering the numbers we had back that shouldn't have been necessary.

Yes he ran a lot but out of the 33 pressures we only got the ball back 5 times which was the 2nd worst of the whole squad.  This came up a lot last year as well in that there were certain games where the midfield would be Gini, Thiago and Jones and we had basically no way to get the ball back and you wouldn't know Curtis was playing aside from when he was on the ball.  One of the posters earlier in the thread was saying Curtis didn't have a "presence" and maybe he doesn't mean it in the sense I do but I think it's probably the most apt description of him as a player at this point.

Since when has pressures success been judged on how many times you win the ball back? (and by the way his five times was joint third highest in the squad on Sunday)

The first principle of defending is the player closest to the ball puts pressure on the attacker. Their role is to deny and control the penetration of the other team (they don’t want the ball to get behind them). You pressure them, delay them, control where you want them to go and then tackle if you can.

[Ghost Town]

De Bryne passes the ball to Jesus, Jones

Right here, right now I'd say that was the main issue

[Funky_Gibbons]

Right here, right now I'd say that was the main issue

Fuck what have I started 

Hopefully we can keep the subject on Jones, the International Bright Young Thing.

[Eeyore]

They were all poor in the middle of the park Sunday. Jones is sleeping for both goals - ball watching for the second and it’s a really weak challenge for the first. Still a big talent at 20, but it wasn’t a good display. But Fabinho and Henderson were crap too.

Curtis doesn't make a challenge because Jesus is already ahead of him. The only challenge he could make a challenge would be a foul and a yellow. The one who should be making the challenge is Fabinho. As for ball watching for the first goal that is exactly what Milner is doing whilst Curtis is our deepest out field player.

For the second goal Curtis is left with two men De Bruyne and Jesus and busts a gut to get back. That isn't what happens when you are asleep. 

[Dave McCoy]

Interesting you think this considering your use of stats in the Thiago thread.

10 years of minutes played means a lot more than the stats from a 90 minute game.  The use of them in this context as well are also completely unrelated.  One is about the reliability and potential availability of a 30yr old midfielder.  The other is did a 20 year old perform best in comparison to his peers in a single game. 

What exactly do you think he did wrong?

As I said above the first goal was a combination of errors;

The goal starts with Firmino too high up the pitch which gives Silva too much room in midfield. Firmino makes an attempt to get back but puts in a soft tackle. Mane also goes too central which gives Walker spacer to attack;



Silva passes to De Bryne and Jones closes him down as he should. Notice the space Walker is now able to attack;



Jones needs to pressure De Bryne but also keep an eye on Walker who runs past him.



De Bryne passes the ball to Jesus, Jones attempts to get back but for me Fabinho is too high and puts in a soft attempt at tackle;



The only criticism of Jones there is he could have fouled Jesus at the point shown above which would have given City a free-kick in a dangerous position. Considering the numbers we had back that shouldn't have been necessary.Since when has pressures success been judged on how many times you win the ball back? (and by the way his five times was joint third highest in the squad on Sunday)

The first principle of defending is the player closest to the ball puts pressure on the attacker. Their role is to deny and control the penetration of the other team (they don’t want the ball to get behind them). You pressure them, delay them, control where you want them to go and then tackle if you can.

But the answer then is yes you foul Jesus and take the card if necessary.  If free-kicks were truly as dangerous as people make them out to be then teams would never foul and the game would look a lot different.  Instead we live in a world where tactical fouling is the cornerstone strategy to the best defensive team in the world for multiple years running now.  So yeah, pretty write up but it doesn't change my opinion one iotta.

[Funky_Gibbons]

10 years of minutes played means a lot more than the stats from a 90 minute game.  The use of them in this context as well are also completely unrelated.  One is about the reliability and potential availability of a 30yr old midfielder.  The other is did a 20 year old perform best in comparison to his peers in a single game. 

No, you tried manipulating stats to suit your agenda in the Thiago thread and still kept getting it wrong. The context or amount of data isn't important, it's how you presented it.  Just like your use of ‘balls won’ to criticise Jones’s pressing.

But the answer then is yes you foul Jesus and take the card if necessary.  If free-kicks were truly as dangerous as people make them out to be then teams would never foul and the game would look a lot different.  Instead we live in a world where tactical fouling is the cornerstone strategy to the best defensive team in the world for multiple years running now.  So yeah, pretty write up but it doesn't change my opinion one iotta.

So Curtis is to blame for the goal because he didn't foul Jesus? Presumably Fabinho should have fouled him too so he shares the blame? Or Firmino should have fouled Silva at the start of the move?

Or is it purely on Jones's shoulders? It's just that you seem to have ignored all the other players and focused on Jones for some reason......

[Eeyore]

10 years of minutes played means a lot more than the stats from a 90 minute game.  The use of them in this context as well are also completely unrelated.  One is about the reliability and potential availability of a 30yr old midfielder.  The other is did a 20 year old perform best in comparison to his peers in a single game. 


But the answer then is yes you foul Jesus and take the card if necessary.  If free-kicks were truly as dangerous as people make them out to be then teams would never foul and the game would look a lot different.  Instead we live in a world where tactical fouling is the cornerstone strategy to the best defensive team in the world for multiple years running now.  So yeah, pretty write up but it doesn't change my opinion one iotta.

Err it was Liverpool who conceded the least number of goals in the League in both 18/19 and 19/20. So City haven't been the best defensive team in the world for multiple years running. The irony is that they have started conceding fewer goals because they have dropped take one for the team Fernandinho and changed their defensive strategy to one of suffocating the opposition.

[Dave McCoy]

No, you tried manipulating stats to suit your agenda in the Thiago thread and still kept getting it wrong. The context or amount of data isn't important, it's how you presented it.  Just like your use of ‘balls won’ to criticise Jones’s pressing.
So Curtis is to blame for the goal because he didn't foul Jesus? Presumably Fabinho should have fouled him too so he shares the blame? Or Firmino should have fouled Silva at the start of the move?

Or is it purely on Jones's shoulders? It's just that you seem to have ignored all the other players and focused on Jones for some reason......

Hah, manipulating.  That's a good one.  How did I manipulate the numbers that are on a website for public consumption exactly?

As far as Curtis, this is where player threads on this forum are pretty useless.  I said I didn't think he was the best midfielder on Sunday as to me even if it didn't show up on the stats sheet Fabinho was there engaging and making ManC have to work while dealing with a clearly gone Hendo for 45 minutes and Jones who doesn't offer much defensively yet (in my opinion).  Does that mean Jones was the worst midfielder?  No, just that he wasn't the best.  The Foden goal to me just jives with my prior thoughts in watching Curtis in that his off-ball work needs the most improvement but as I'm pointing out he's 20 and that's certainly possible.

Edit: In thinking about it more you could probably make a coherent argument that Hendo was actually the best midfielder on Sunday.  But that's more to do with how bad he was in the first half which I'm surprised more isn't talked about it in that it might have been one of the worst 45 minutes for a LFC player since Lovren against Spurs.  I mean it was that bad and there's no way we're doing anything but losing that game if he continues that play in the 2nd half.  So with that you can say that Hendo was the best midfielder in that he pulled his head out of his ass and at least played to a level we are used to seeing which enabled us to at minimum draw the game.

Err it was Liverpool who conceded the least number of goals in the League in both 18/19 and 19/20. So City haven't been the best defensive team in the world for multiple years running. The irony is that they have started conceding fewer goals because they have dropped take one for the team Fernandinho and changed their defensive strategy to one of suffocating the opposition.

Ok, they lead the xG against table for every year it's listed on FBref.  Currently they're at 4 and we're at 8.9.  They've added another defender in defense because they no longer have Fernandinho but the principle of taking out the transition attacker with a foul is still a bedrock to their play.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Hah, manipulating.  That's a good one.  How did I manipulate the numbers that are on a website for public consumption exactly?

Sigh, do we need to go through this again? Someone mentioned about many times Thiago had played 20 games a season, you then turned it into starts per season and then into minutes played per season to suit your arguement. And still got it wrong

As far as Curtis, this is where player threads on this forum are pretty useless.  I said I didn't think he was the best midfielder on Sunday as to me even if it didn't show up on the stats sheet Fabinho was there engaging and making ManC have to work while dealing with a clearly gone Hendo for 45 minutes and Jones who doesn't offer much defensively yet (in my opinion).  Does that mean Jones was the worst midfielder?  No, just that he wasn't the best.  The Foden goal to me just jives with my prior thoughts in watching Curtis in that his off-ball work needs the most improvement but as I'm pointing out he's 20 and that's certainly possible.

No-one forces you to post in the player threads, but if you post something that is untrue then you'll rightly be called out on it. You keep referring back to the Foden goal as if it's his fault but all you've said is he should have done is foul Jesus, totally ignoring all the other things that happened before that to suit your arguement.

Fabinho had a better opportunity to foul Jesus than Jones yet he somehow escapes your criticism. And again you keep saying his off the ball work needs to improve but his numbers in this game don't support that.
 

Edit: In thinking about it more you could probably make a coherent argument that Hendo was actually the best midfielder on Sunday.  But that's more to do with how bad he was in the first half which I'm surprised more isn't talked about it in that it might have been one of the worst 45 minutes for a LFC player since Lovren against Spurs.  I mean it was that bad and there's no way we're doing anything but losing that game if he continues that play in the 2nd half.  So with that you can say that Hendo was the best midfielder in that he pulled his head out of his ass and at least played to a level we are used to seeing which enabled us to at minimum draw the game.

You call that a coherent arguement? Henderson wasn't quite as bad as he was in the first half so he was the best midfielder?

[Dave McCoy]

Sigh, do we need to go through this again? Someone mentioned about many times Thiago had played 20 games a season, you then turned it into starts per season and then into minutes played per season to suit your arguement. And still got it wrong

LOL, someone being me?  I figured I'd give my reasoning for my opinion so at least people could understand where I'm coming from if they disagree but I guess we can just pick issues with people without fully knowing what is even happening these days.

No-one forces you to post in the player threads, but if you post something that is untrue then you'll rightly be called out on it. You keep referring back to the Foden goal as if it's his fault but all you've said is he should have done is foul Jesus, totally ignoring all the other things that happened before that to suit your arguement.  Fabinho had a better opportunity to foul Jesus than Jones yet he somehow escapes your criticism. And again you keep saying his off the ball work needs to improve but his numbers in this game don't support that.    You call that a coherent arguement? Henderson wasn't quite as bad as he was in the first half so he was the best midfielder?

I keep referring to the Foden goal as an example but nowhere did I say it was the sole reason.  I figure I've probably watched every single minute of Curtis's professional career at this point and I'm not going to think good or ill of a player based on 45 or 90 minutes.  With that said I think anybody does get notions of what a player is after a certain amount of time and I've seen enough of Curtis now to where it will take some time before my opinion changes.  To that end it's probably fair to say I'd never think he was the best midfielder on the day unless his on-ball contributions are telling because he's clearly at a PL level in that aspect of his game.  To that end he had 1 dribble, no shots, he was given credit for an assist but in FBref (statsbomb) numbers didn't have a single shot creating action, progressed the ball 7 times and that's about it.  So yeah, if he stops Jesus maybe that's then midfielder of the day without us knowing he just stopped a goal but otherwise it's just a bunch of "meh" and opinions.

Now the Hendo example is then for me is coherent in that him actually becoming a competent midfielder again in the 2nd half had more to do with the result than anything Curtis did on the field who was all in all pretty peripheral whereas if Hendo continued to stink out the joint we for sure lose.

And yeah, you'll find I don't post in most player threads as I usually remind myself in time how pointless they usually are as this discussion and Thiago's clearly proves.  Maybe I'll catch myself sooner next time, we'll see.

[Pistolero]

Some of you lot really should log out occasionally....

[rubber soul]

Fuck what have I started 

Hopefully we can keep the subject on Jones, the International Bright Young Thing.

Agreed, lets keep it Real Real Real.

[Eeyore]

Ok, they lead the xG against table for every year it's listed on FBref.  Currently they're at 4 and we're at 8.9.  They've added another defender in defense because they no longer have Fernandinho but the principle of taking out the transition attacker with a foul is still a bedrock to their play.

Are you really trying to show that City have the best defence because they underperformed against xG. They improved their defensive record after losing the title to us. They did that by playing far more conservatively and concentrating on controlling the game more and reducing the number of transitions the opposition have.

Getting back to Curtis you make a professional foul when an opponent is making a run into space not when your DM is about to make a challenge.

[Dave McCoy]

Are you really trying to show that City have the best defence because they underperformed against xG. They improved their defensive record after losing the title to us. They did that by playing far more conservatively and concentrating on controlling the game more and reducing the number of transitions the opposition have.

Getting back to Curtis you make a professional foul when an opponent is making a run into space not when your DM is about to make a challenge.

I'm not trying to show anything.  I'm stating they've been the best defensive team for a long time now based on xG against and they still tactical foul as a cornerstone of their tactics because free-kicks are very low percentage scoring events.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The best defensive side is shock fucking horror,the side that lets the least goals in.

Not rocket science.

[rubber soul]

LOL, someone being me?  I figured I'd give my reasoning for my opinion so at least people could understand where I'm coming from if they disagree but I guess we can just pick issues with people without fully knowing what is even happening these days.

I keep referring to the Foden goal as an example but nowhere did I say it was the sole reason.  I figure I've probably watched every single minute of Curtis's professional career at this point and I'm not going to think good or ill of a player based on 45 or 90 minutes.  With that said I think anybody does get notions of what a player is after a certain amount of time and I've seen enough of Curtis now to where it will take some time before my opinion changes.  To that end it's probably fair to say I'd never think he was the best midfielder on the day unless his on-ball contributions are telling because he's clearly at a PL level in that aspect of his game.  To that end he had 1 dribble, no shots, he was given credit for an assist but in FBref (statsbomb) numbers didn't have a single shot creating action, progressed the ball 7 times and that's about it.  So yeah, if he stops Jesus maybe that's then midfielder of the day without us knowing he just stopped a goal but otherwise it's just a bunch of "meh" and opinions.

Now the Hendo example is then for me is coherent in that him actually becoming a competent midfielder again in the 2nd half had more to do with the result than anything Curtis did on the field who was all in all pretty peripheral whereas if Hendo continued to stink out the joint we for sure lose.

And yeah, you'll find I don't post in most player threads as I usually remind myself in time how pointless they usually are as this discussion and Thiago's clearly proves.  Maybe I'll catch myself sooner next time, we'll see.

Are you like this in real life?

[GreatEx]

The best defensive side is shock fucking horror,the side that lets the least goals in.

Only if it supports the point you're trying to make, otherwise it's XG. If that also fails, it's blocked shots times 4 plus clearances minus corners conceded to the power of penalties conceded multiplied by the inverse of your goalkeeper's arm length.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Only if it supports the point you're trying to make, otherwise it's XG. If that also fails, it's blocked shots times 4 plus clearances minus corners conceded to the power of penalties conceded multiplied by the inverse of your goalkeeper's arm length.

 

[Eeyore]

Only if it supports the point you're trying to make, otherwise it's XG. If that also fails, it's blocked shots times 4 plus clearances minus corners conceded to the power of penalties conceded multiplied by the inverse of your goalkeeper's arm length.

Explains why Pickford is so shit.

[Dave McCoy]

Are you like this in real life?

Having my own opinion?  I would assume so.

Only if it supports the point you're trying to make, otherwise it's XG. If that also fails, it's blocked shots times 4 plus clearances minus corners conceded to the power of penalties conceded multiplied by the inverse of your goalkeeper's arm length.

That's the thing, the point I am trying to make still works if you consider ManC 2nd or 3rd or 4th best defense or whatever in that fouling Jesus is not dangerous because almost all free kicks aside from penalties don't result in a goal.   99% of fouls aren't dangerous.  So yeah we can point and laugh about xG vs. Goals Against and how dumb I am but it really has nothing to do with what it was being used for in the first place.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Having my own opinion?  I would assume so.

That's the thing, the point I am trying to make still works if you consider ManC 2nd or 3rd or 4th best defense or whatever in that fouling Jesus is not dangerous because almost all free kicks aside from penalties don't result in a goal.   99% of fouls aren't dangerous.  So yeah we can point and laugh about xG vs. Goals Against and how dumb I am but it really has nothing to do with what it was being used for in the first place.

But we were laughing at you using xg as a way to say that Citys defence has been better than ours.

Clearly bullshit no matter the metric,no ?

As for this

Yes he ran a lot but out of the 33 pressures we only got the ball back 5 times which was the 2nd worst of the whole squad.

Are you related to this guy ?

[Dave McCoy]

But we were laughing at you using xg as a way to say that Citys defence has been better than ours.

Clearly bullshit no matter the metric,no ?

But again in the context of how it was being used it's immaterial.  So sure, LFC's defense was better but what does that have to do with the point that fouling Jesus isn't dangerous or if it was teams would actually avoid fouling?  Nobody seems to be disputing that or am I missing something?

xG either for or against is proven to be more predictive of future performance than just simply G or GA.  I think ManU is a good example of this from 4-5 years ago when De Gea put in one of the all-time great GK performances in a season and they conceded the least goals or thereabouts.  xG showed it was just a fluke and as soon De Gea's form dropped their GA against climbed as expected.   Does that mean they had a the best defense in the league or just a player getting lucky?

As for this

Are you related to this guy ?

No idea who that is but I don't really see anything wrong with what I said.  Al said he pressed 33 times which he did but at the 2nd lowest success rate in the team.  Is that then something to hold up as a reason for having a good game?  He ran around a lot is good enough for best midfielder on the day? 

It's also pretty ironic considering the antipathy towards xG and analytics by a lot on here to then pull out a Statbomb statistic and then make posts like you are, isn't it?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Because the amount of times he pressured City and the amount of times we won the ball back have zero bearing on one another,zero.

You must have played the game.

And for the record,stats bore the piss out of me.

[Dave McCoy]

Because the amount of times he pressured City and the amount of times we won the ball back have zero bearing on one another,zero.

You must have played the game.

And for the record,stats bore the piss out of me.

Sounds like you have an issue with Al then....

[Eeyore]

Sounds like you have an issue with Al then....

Given I didn't mention pressing or possession regains. I honestly don't know why you are bringing me into it. Give me a break I get enough flak for the shite I post without blaming me for other people's posts.   

[Dave McCoy]

Given I didn't mention pressing or possession regains. I honestly don't know why you are bringing me into it. Give me a break I get enough flak for the shite I post without blaming me for other people's posts.   

You're right, my apologies Al.  It was Funky that posted the pressure stat.  There you go WAP, ask him if he played the game.

[killer-heels]

So what was the conclusion? City’s defence is the best isnt it?

[mrantarctica]

So what was the conclusion? City’s defence is the best isnt it?

The only conclusion I could draw from that diatribe is that Pickford is shit because his arms are small

[Funky_Gibbons]

Al said he pressed 33 times which he did but at the 2nd lowest success rate in the team.  Is that then something to hold up as a reason for having a good game?  He ran around a lot is good enough for best midfielder on the day? 

It's also pretty ironic considering the antipathy towards xG and analytics by a lot on here to then pull out a Statbomb statistic and then make posts like you are, isn't it?

Why are repeating this nonsense, are you being deliberately ignorant?

I mentioned earlier he didn't have the second lowest regains in the team, he had the joint third highest yet you ignore it and keep repeating the same lie. 



I also said you cannot measure the 'success' of a pressure by the amount of times you regain possession. Again you're manipulating stats to suit a your agenda.

The first principle of defending is the player closest to the ball puts pressure on the attacker. Their role is to deny and control the penetration of the other team (they don’t want the ball to get behind them). You pressure them, delay them, control where you want them to go and then tackle if you can.

[Lad]

Haven't seen so much waffle in a thread since Nat Phillips started playing well last season and some posters couldn't deal with it and kept telling us how shit he is.

[Dave McCoy]

Why are repeating this nonsense, are you being deliberately ignorant?

I mentioned earlier he didn't have the second lowest regains in the team, he had the joint third highest yet you ignore it and keep repeating the same lie. 



I also said you cannot measure the 'success' of a pressure by the amount of times you regain possession. Again you're manipulating stats to suit a your agenda.

Lie, manipulating, ignorant.  Quite the post here.  And I'm doing all this to accomplish what exactly?  Convince you that Jones wasn't the best midfielder in one game?  Will a RAWK moderator come on down from up high and give me a special RAWK medal or something I'm not aware of?  Are you going to send me a Xmas card thanking me? 

Anyway, it's actually you who clearly need to either take a step back or stop responding to me or something.  What is the definition of success rate?  Considering the answer is also on the screenshot that you're posting it would seem self-evident but obviously not.  Have a good one.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Anyway, it's actually you who clearly need to either take a step back or stop responding to me or something.  What is the definition of success rate?  Considering the answer is also on the screenshot that you're posting it would seem self-evident but obviously not.  Have a good one.

So first of all you, do agree that Jones had the joint third 'successful' pressures in the team, not the second lowest which you've said twice previously?

Secondly, that is one metric that site has chosen to use to measure the 'success' of a pressure. I'm sure no manager, especially Klopp, would look at it as binary as that. Pressuring a player and forcing them to pass the ball backwards is a success, stopping them from playing a forward or penetrating pass is a success, forcing a player into a potential trap is a success etc etc.

Defining a successful pressure only as one which results in possession being won back is as bad as those sites which only define a successful tackle as won that regains possession.

Lie, manipulating, ignorant.  Quite the post here.  And I'm doing all this to accomplish what exactly?  Convince you that Jones wasn't the best midfielder in one game?  Will a RAWK moderator come on down from up high and give me a special RAWK medal or something I'm not aware of?  Are you going to send me a Xmas card thanking me? 

How odd.

[Dave McCoy]

So first of all you, do agree that Jones had the joint third 'successful' pressures in the team, not the second lowest which you've said twice previously?

Secondly, that is one metric that site has chosen to use to measure the 'success' of a pressure. I'm sure no manager, especially Klopp, would look at it as binary as that. Pressuring a player and forcing them to pass the ball backwards is a success, stopping them from playing a forward or penetrating pass is a success, forcing a player into a potential trap is a success etc etc.

Defining a successful pressure only as one which results in possession being won back is as bad as those sites which only define a successful tackle as won that regains possession.

I really don't know what else to say and this is the last time I'll respond to you on this to save myself and everyone else the trouble.  Second lowest success rate is a factual statement and what I stated repeatedly now.  Do you not understand how percentages work?

For the bolded, your now quantifying all of this with your choosing to use the metrics that Statbomb measures but disputing that they're even measuring it in a way that makes sense?  Who chose to bring this up again?

How odd.

That someone would call another poster a liar, manipulator and ignorant over an opinion about how a player played?  Yeah, odd indeed.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It's like some people have never played a single minute of the game that they follow.

[TepidT2O]

[Funky_Gibbons]

I really don't know what else to say and this is the last time I'll respond to you on this to save myself and everyone else the trouble.  Second lowest success rate is a factual statement and what I stated repeatedly now.  Do you not understand how percentages work?

For the bolded, your now quantifying all of this with your choosing to use the metrics that Statbomb measures but disputing that they're even measuring it in a way that makes sense?  Who chose to bring this up again?

Do you seriously believe the only way a pressure can be considered successful is if possession is won within five seconds of that pressure? I said two days ago you can't just use that metric.

I've also not said the measurement is wrong or brought the 'possession regains' stat into this. 

That someone would call another poster a liar, manipulator and ignorant over an opinion about how a player played?  Yeah, odd indeed.

It's not about your opinion of how the player played though is it, everyone is entitled to that. What you said was;

You can't watch the Foden goal and tell me that's the play of a good all around midfielder who was the pick of the bunch on the day.  Yes he ran a lot but out of the 33 pressures we only got the ball back 5 times which was the 2nd worst of the whole squad. 

You criticised him for the Foden goal, which he had very little influence on, and the use of that 'possesion regain' stat as a stick to beat him with (which was untrue).

I've yet to see one credible reason that Foden goal could be the responsibility of Jones. There are people more culpable but ever since I posted he was our best midfielder on the day you seem intent on trying to prove otherwise, even going as far as to say Henderson was better as he wasn't as bad in the second half as he was in the first.

[Peabee]

It's like some people have never played a single minute of the game that they follow.

Experience ain’t expertise. Klopp and Mourinho were shit at football, but they’re two of the best ever coaches/managers.

[PoetryInMotion]

 

[leroy]

https://c.tenor.com/Pfz2r2r678wAAAAC/the-simpsons-bart-simpson.gif

If ever I could like a post...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Experience ain’t expertise. Klopp and Mourinho were shit at football, but they’re two of the best ever coaches/managers.

You don't need to be Shankly to understand pressing & compared to Maureen the boss was Pele.