Author Topic: General political discussion Part II  (Read 100219 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1000 on: October 17, 2019, 06:32:20 am »
Oh yes, Louise Ellmann who came up with the smear that Jeremy was anti semitic for attending a seminar 9 yrs ago with the late Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor.

A seminar that she also attended in fact she stayed longer because Jeremy had to leave early and if I remember rightly the seminar was held in a room in the HOC.

Err...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/01/jeremy-corbyn-issues-apology-in-labour-antisemitism-row
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1001 on: October 17, 2019, 06:48:24 am »
Oh yes, Louise Ellmann who came up with the smear that Jeremy was anti semitic for attending a seminar 9 yrs ago with the late Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor.

A seminar that she also attended in fact she stayed longer because Jeremy had to leave early and if I remember rightly the seminar was held in a room in the HOC.
So you’re telling Jewish people that the antisemitism they are experiencing isn’t real?

Imagine if Enoch Powell has said ‘Black people, you’re making it up’
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1002 on: October 17, 2019, 06:49:35 am »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1003 on: October 17, 2019, 07:47:38 am »

Offline TepidT2O

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“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Circa1892

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1005 on: October 17, 2019, 08:12:59 am »
Oh yes, Louise Ellmann who came up with the smear that Jeremy was anti semitic for attending a seminar 9 yrs ago with the late Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor.

A seminar that she also attended in fact she stayed longer because Jeremy had to leave early and if I remember rightly the seminar was held in a room in the HOC.

Here he comes!

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1006 on: October 17, 2019, 04:39:50 pm »
Just reading an article about a trial of a 93 year old German soldier who is accused of contributing to the killings of 5,000 plus prisoners in a Nazi death camp during World War 2. Obviously there was horrific crimes at these camps but I do struggle to see how every soldier posted at one of these camps (he had no say where he was posted and would have probably been shot himself if he did not follow orders) could be painted with the same brush as his superiors who were making the decision to kill the prisoners. Its a very touchy subject as those family members looking for justice would want him to be punished no matter how long it takes to get their justice.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1007 on: October 17, 2019, 04:45:25 pm »
So you’re telling Jewish people that the antisemitism they are experiencing isn’t real?

Imagine if Enoch Powell has said ‘Black people, you’re making it up’

I think people can fathom that there are degrees of anti-Semitism, and what is alleged to be happening now - mainly being criticism of the actions of Israel, which occasionally tips over into some generalisations by a small minority - hardly compares to the sort of anti-Semitism that Jewish people have experienced in the past.

I get that there's a fear of a 'slippery slope'. But there's also an over-reaction, which seems at times to be contrived.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1008 on: October 17, 2019, 05:12:10 pm »
I think people can fathom that there are degrees of anti-Semitism, and what is alleged to be happening now - mainly being criticism of the actions of Israel, which occasionally tips over into some generalisations by a small minority - hardly compares to the sort of anti-Semitism that Jewish people have experienced in the past.

I get that there's a fear of a 'slippery slope'. But there's also an over-reaction, which seems at times to be contrived.



I'd agree that it can sometimes seem like an over reaction, at least to my eyes. However thats pretty much standard for how these issues are viewed in the UK these days. If something can be interpreted as being racist, sexist, homophobic or anti transgender then that is the default position. Its the fault of the person being condemned as racist irrespective of if they meant it or not, nuance is a thing of the past.

There is an argument that this lack of nuance is good as it gives power to oppressed minorities and takes it away from those that would seek to slyly victimise them but appear to be respectable.

However i would argue the downside is many people are swept up in these controversies who were not being offensive but have been interpreted incorrectly.

IMO the balance has swung too far away from nuance and accepting differences of opinion. However one must note it has been the left who have been at the forefront of this change and one may say that they are currently being hoisted by their own petard over anti semitism.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1009 on: October 17, 2019, 05:15:30 pm »
I'd agree that it can sometimes seem like an over reaction, at least to my eyes. However thats pretty much standard for how these issues are viewed in the UK these days. If something can be interpreted as being racist, sexist, homophobic or anti transgender then that is the default position. Its the fault of the person being condemned as racist irrespective of if they meant it or not, nuance is a thing of the past.

There is an argument that this lack of nuance is good as it gives power to oppressed minorities and takes it away from those that would seek to slyly victimise them but appear to be respectable.

However i would argue the downside is many people are swept up in these controversies who were not being offensive but have been interpreted incorrectly.

IMO the balance has swung too far away from nuance and accepting differences of opinion. However one must note it has been the left who have been at the forefront of this change and one may say that they are currently being hoisted by their own petard over anti semitism.

I agree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50062791

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Alan_X

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1010 on: October 17, 2019, 05:36:54 pm »
I think people can fathom that there are degrees of anti-Semitism, and what is alleged to be happening now - mainly being criticism of the actions of Israel, which occasionally tips over into some generalisations by a small minority - hardly compares to the sort of anti-Semitism that Jewish people have experienced in the past.

I get that there's a fear of a 'slippery slope'. But there's also an over-reaction, which seems at times to be contrived.



It’s a shame that ‘Jews, Money, Myth’ at the Jewish Museum closes today. It won an award last week and I is one of the most important things I’ve ever worked on. The Director and curator are both amazing women who work for a museum that has bomb proof front doors and the security guards aren’t to stop things being stolen but because of the constant risk of anti-Semitic violence.

The context of anti-semitism is living everyday knowing that even in a country like Britain there are significant numbers of people who hate you and would happily see you deported, beaten up or murdered.

The history of anti-semitism is long and particularly insidious. Anti-semitism is an ‘acceptable’ version of racism for people who would baulk at the idea they are in any way racist. “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m anti-banker...” or “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m anti-Zionist...” “I’m not against the Jews, it’s just the wrong kind of Jews who are anti-Corbyn...”.

There are plenty of bankers who aren’t Jews, there are plenty of countries who behave badly towards minorities. The hatred of Jews on the left existed long before the state of Israel.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1011 on: October 17, 2019, 09:41:28 pm »
Which of us hasn’t laid wreaths on the graves of the tortures and murderers of innocent Jews?
I guessed you were skipping over something... 
It's the one where the Lab,Tory and Lib's all sent representatives and he laid a wreath for the 47 people who were killed (and 65 wounded ) in Tunisia ?
What do you think of those victims ? Did they not deserve recognition ?     
As for the allegation one of them was in Munich I guess we'll never know and he's dead but on principle alone it was never proven and I'm sure you believe in innocent untill proven guilty and I'm sure your also against the death penalty.
Then there's the actual attack a flagrant breach of the UN charter and a War Crime. Which in turn led to a spate of anti-semitic attacks in Tunisia by people conflating one thing with another and ultimately leading to another 3 deaths. I'm sure you believe in the principle of upholding International laws and you're definitely against War Crimes
So what gives ? Out of all that sorry state of affairs, why is the laying of a wreath the thing that annoys you ?     

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1012 on: October 17, 2019, 10:04:04 pm »
I guessed you were skipping over something... 
It's the one where the Lab,Tory and Lib's all sent representatives and he laid a wreath for the 47 people who were killed (and 65 wounded ) in Tunisia ?
What do you think of those victims ? Did they not deserve recognition ?     
As for the allegation one of them was in Munich I guess we'll never know and he's dead but on principle alone it was never proven and I'm sure you believe in innocent untill proven guilty and I'm sure your also against the death penalty.
Then there's the actual attack a flagrant breach of the UN charter and a War Crime. Which in turn led to a spate of anti-semitic attacks in Tunisia by people conflating one thing with another and ultimately leading to another 3 deaths. I'm sure you believe in the principle of upholding International laws and you're definitely against War Crimes
So what gives ? Out of all that sorry state of affairs, why is the laying of a wreath the thing that annoys you ?     

It’s the celebrating the grave of someone who maimed  and killed innocent people.

It’s disgraceful.

As for the rest of your ‘whatabboutery’ it does you no credit but is entirely unsurprising.
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline west_london_red

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1013 on: October 17, 2019, 10:06:02 pm »
I agree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50062791



Gandhi said some pretty despicable things about black people in his time, and yes it was along time ago and attitudes were different but at the same time it’s hard to hold someone up as an anti-colonial hero when at the same time he saw black people as little better then animals. There’s also the Indian government using the favourable view of Gandhi abroad to soften its own image abroad.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1014 on: October 17, 2019, 10:12:14 pm »
It’s a shame that ‘Jews, Money, Myth’ at the Jewish Museum closes today. It won an award last week and I is one of the most important things I’ve ever worked on. The Director and curator are both amazing women who work for a museum that has bomb proof front doors and the security guards aren’t to stop things being stolen but because of the constant risk of anti-Semitic violence.

The context of anti-semitism is living everyday knowing that even in a country like Britain there are significant numbers of people who hate you and would happily see you deported, beaten up or murdered.

The history of anti-semitism is long and particularly insidious. Anti-semitism is an ‘acceptable’ version of racism for people who would baulk at the idea they are in any way racist. “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m anti-banker...” or “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m anti-Zionist...” “I’m not against the Jews, it’s just the wrong kind of Jews who are anti-Corbyn...”.

There are plenty of bankers who aren’t Jews, there are plenty of countries who behave badly towards minorities. The hatred of Jews on the left existed long before the state of Israel.

I think there needs to be balance though?

Is somebody who criticises bankers/international capitalism inevitably anti-semitic? No - but anybody who wishes to take that stance responsibly needs to do so with a sensitivity to historic anti-semitic tropes about bankers/capitalism and ensure that their criticisms avoid these.

Is an anti-zionist also inevitably anti-semitic? The ICHR definition suggests not I think. By that definition characterising the existence of Israel as a racist endeavour is anti-semitic, as is drawing British Jews into the argument, either by suggesting that they share responsibility for Israel's action or by dismissing/criticising their support for Israel solely in terms of their shared Jewish identity. But criticising Israel and it's actions by no means inevitably comes under either of those definitions.

If a Corbyn supporter criticises a Jewish Labour MP for their lack of commitment to the Corbyn 'project' is that inevitably anti-semitic? Again no - but for me the moment they drift into dismissing their concerns about anti-semitism just because they 'don't like Jeremy'  that is anti-semitic.

For me the problem is that the current Labour administration and their supporters have shown little interest in engaging with these subtleties. I think that raises a case for them being anti-semitic by omission if not by commission.

That said what I am less comfortable with is the equivalence (in general, not from you personally) of that problem with the historic violent persecution of Jews. Of course historical context is important - that is why you cannot draw a parallel between white-on-black racist speech/ideas and similar ideas/speech in a  black-on-white direction. But following that theme the Macpherson Report that said that the Met was institutionally racist was not saying that police officers were looking for the return of slave-ships, lynchings and Jim Crow laws. But for me there is still an issue whereby when I have a real hesitancy in putting forward my opinion that large parts of the current Labour Party are anti-semitic because I know that the emotional reaction of many to that phrase is - to put it bluntly - to think back to the Holocaust. I think that there is an element of the 'anti-Corbynists' (as above not you personally) that play on that association to demonise their political opponents.

I'm not a regular Labour voter, let alone a member of the party, let alone x2 somebody that is sympathetic to Corbyn and his supporters. But that is my 2c FWIW.   

Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1015 on: October 17, 2019, 10:31:36 pm »
https://twitter.com/lara_eleanor/status/1184588875588608000?s=21

No shame these lot

It's a shame Lara doesn't know what demonstrably means (I'm assuming she meant that instead of demonstratively)

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1016 on: October 17, 2019, 11:38:40 pm »
It’s the celebrating the grave of someone who maimed  and killed innocent people.

It’s disgraceful.

As for the rest of your ‘whatabboutery’ it does you no credit but is entirely unsurprising.
I have a principle of Innocent till proven guilty to guide me, I see you are free of such constraints.
Anyway facts are I cant prove the suspect maimed or killed anyone and neither can you.
Nor can I prove Corbyn laid a wreath at the grave of him either and neither can you.
Your post was inflammatory bs yet you feel you can dismiss facts and any mention of context ie the provable
stuff like war crimes and all the other victims etc as whataboutery  ::)


 

 


 

 
   
     

Offline idontknow

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1017 on: October 18, 2019, 01:38:30 am »
We're talking about the hear and now, not the 80's.  If Corbyn is the best Labour has then Labour will get whatever it deserves.  I find it amazing that a country of 66 million people can't find one charismatic person that can lead a credible challenge to such a historically unpopular party and political platform but as you're noting maybe Blair truly did fuck it up for the non-fascists.  Guess we'll see.
Fuck it, got fed up trying to dissect this so just slammed me fist down on it. Not fucking worth it.

I'm betting you reply, even though I've said I bet you reply.
(That means I win either way. And you can't say it now cos I said it first.)

But you can come up with something smug and clever, that's fine, I probably won't understand it.

I don't give a fuck. (I might be fibbing, though, maybe I do a bit.) (Could be lying about that too, though. Hard to tell sometimes.)

Your shot, big boy  :)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 01:42:51 am by idontknow »
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Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1018 on: October 18, 2019, 02:20:35 am »
I have a principle of Innocent till proven guilty to guide me, I see you are free of such constraints.
Anyway facts are I cant prove the suspect maimed or killed anyone and neither can you.
Nor can I prove Corbyn laid a wreath at the grave of him either and neither can you.
Your post was inflammatory bs yet you feel you can dismiss facts and any mention of context ie the provable
stuff like war crimes and all the other victims etc as whataboutery  ::)   

Since you bring up facts and proof, and since we're on the topic, just a quick reminder that you've yet to find a single example of Corbyn challenging bigotry coming from people who are speaking at the same events as him. This should be much easier for you to prove that anything wreath related, if it's happened.

Long fight you say? Ok cool, let’s see an example of him challenging homophobia by people he’s sharing a platform with and let’s see him challenging anti semitism in person too please.

He’s been a part of the establishment for near forty years, and we all know how many times he’s shared platforms with holicaust deniers and islamofascists and authoritarians, so there’s no excuse that there’s a shortage of potential content there.

So go on, let’s see an example of each of those things please. If you can’t find video, writing/reporting will be absolutely fine.
We won't even get past the first hurdle..."Sharing a platform"

Offline BoRed

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1019 on: October 18, 2019, 08:50:47 am »
I'm not aware of most of this.  I just was reading something about potential and expected Brexit impacts vis-a-vis the PL and LFC in particular and there's no silver lining.

As someone from abroad, if you're truly interested in this from an LFC perspective, perhaps this might help:

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/10/is-liverpool-fc-a-socialist-football-club/

Quote
...

Liverpool, defined by its fans, its history and its present, has a strong case for being a socialist football club.

The aforementioned ‘unity is strength’ banner bears the images of current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, a true left-wing Labour leader at a time when the powers-that-be are trying to convince people that the centre is the left in order to make the extreme right appear more palatable, and make Labour seem more extreme when it has merely returned to its roots.

It shows shadow chancellor John McDonnell, who was born in Liverpool, and it also shows support for the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, the Shrewsbury 24 campaign and the Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign.

It’s also no coincidence that the banner containing the portraits of Liverpool’s most successful and iconic managers, to which Klopp has recently been added, is based on a Soviet banner bearing the images of Karl Marx, Freidrich Engels and Lenin alongside a red star, one of the symbols of communism.

The Liverpool Football Club and Athletic Grounds Limited is not a socialist company, but Liverpool, defined by its fans, its city, its current manager, cooperative and accommodating but not trademarked, is a socialist football club.

(I've quoted the most relevant part here, but the whole thing is worth a read.)

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1020 on: October 18, 2019, 08:59:33 am »
Riverside CLP releasing a statement on Louise Ellman's resignation

https://twitter.com/flowerchucker/status/1184897806227660806

Usual 'We cant be Antisemitic because we have Jewish members in in our CLP'

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1021 on: October 18, 2019, 09:42:17 am »
Please God not that banner again please

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1022 on: October 18, 2019, 12:52:28 pm »
I can see Labour obliterated in the next GE, ending with less than 200 seats.

Remainers will abandon them to punish Corbyn for not being strong enough to stop Brexit, whilst leavers will still be wanking themselves silly over pictures of 'the British Trump' for arranging for them to be basted, wrapped in foil and slow-roasted in the oven of right-wing shysterism for the rest of their lives.

It'll be a landslide for Bozo - and following that will be a further lurch to the economic right.


A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline John C

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1023 on: October 18, 2019, 06:54:41 pm »
I can see Labour obliterated in the next GE, ending with less than 200 seats.

Remainers will abandon them to punish Corbyn for not being strong enough to stop Brexit, whilst leavers will still be wanking themselves silly over pictures of 'the British Trump' for arranging for them to be basted, wrapped in foil and slow-roasted in the oven of right-wing shysterism for the rest of their lives.

It'll be a landslide for Bozo - and following that will be a further lurch to the economic right.

^^ so based on that acknowledgement, what was this post about?


Wow. With such an ability with words that you can succinctly condense the entire principles of leftism into one honest soundbite, they should but you on the RAWK Staff.


Offline filopastry

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1024 on: October 18, 2019, 07:31:38 pm »
A poll for everyone's tastes today.

Quote
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 33% (-)
LAB: 29% (+2)
LDEM: 18% (-)
BREX: 12% (-)
GRN: 4% (-)

via @ComRes, 16 - 17 Oct
Chgs. w/ 15 Oct

Quote
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 36% (+3)
LAB: 27% (-3)
LDEM: 17% (-)
BREX: 11% (-1)
GRN: 3% (-)

via @PanelbaseMD, 17 - 18 Oct
Chgs. w/ 11 Oct

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1025 on: October 18, 2019, 09:57:22 pm »
Something mentioned a bit in the older, closed, thread and on election nights. But increasing evidence for some takes on the Labour vote and Brexit being a bit daft.

Quote
With a very large sample (37,959) and questions designed specifically to measure these very types of question, the British Election Study wave 16 collected between 24th May and 18th June 2019 can provide some important insights into how that strategic situation looked earlier this year.

First, while 68% of Labour voters voted to Remain in the EU in 2016, what about voters in those seats which voted to Leave the EU? Dividing countries in to Leave and Remain seats and subdividing by the 2017 winner, the BES data shows that in Labour seats where there was a Leave majority, 60% of Labour voters voted to Remain in 2016 compared to 76% in Remain seats. In other words while unsurprisingly there were more Labour leave voters in leave seats, on average there was still a substantial Remain majority. Even in those with a Leave vote of greater than 60%, a clear majority (57%) of Labour voters voted Remain in 2016.

Of course, Labour is not looking to win only the votes of those who supported them in 2017, and some people have changed their Brexit preferences since 2016. Rather than focus on 2017 vote and 2016 EU referendum vote we can use the BES to look at the Brexit preferences of all potential Labour voters in May 2019. We defined respondents who scored Labour on a like-dislike scale at least 5 on a 0-10 scale[2] as potential supporters, making up 46% of all respondents that said they would vote and had decided how to vote.

Overall 70% of these potential Labour voters said they would vote to remain in the EU, with only 21% preferring to leave, with the rest saying they ‘don’t know’ or ‘would not vote’ in another referendum. In Leave constituencies these figures change only slightly to 65% and 25% respectively. When we narrow this down to Labour seats we see little evidence to suggest that Labour MPs in leave constituencies who are concerned about their re-election prospects need worry more about alienating leave voters than remain voters

British Election Study

Course there's an argument that you want to reach out beyond those who are vaguely ambivalent towards you and into those who actively dislike you right now, but seems a stretch as things currently are.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1026 on: October 18, 2019, 11:05:09 pm »
As someone from abroad, if you're truly interested in this from an LFC perspective, perhaps this might help:

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/10/is-liverpool-fc-a-socialist-football-club/

(I've quoted the most relevant part here, but the whole thing is worth a read.)
:)
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Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1027 on: October 18, 2019, 11:35:26 pm »
As someone from abroad, if you're truly interested in this from an LFC perspective, perhaps this might help:

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/10/is-liverpool-fc-a-socialist-football-club/

(I've quoted the most relevant part here, but the whole thing is worth a read.)

Will never understand what possessed someone to add Corbyn's grid to a liverpool banner, let alone one that associates him with the campaign for justice.

Were Corbyn a socialist of the sort that we know Shankly believed in, perhaps I'd think he'd be worthy of the recognition. But personally I don't see how an ostensible football fan, who was a sitting MP in 1989 and ever sign, who never once took it upon himself to discuss or sign anything in parliament (and I can find no evidence online outside parliament either) about the disaster (until after Cameron's government apology in 2012) is someone who should be credited in any way alongside the heroes involved in that campaign in the past and ongoing.

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1028 on: October 18, 2019, 11:37:54 pm »
Please God not that banner again please

Amen, especially not via the Morning Star.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1029 on: October 19, 2019, 12:14:14 am »
Quote
Westminster Voting Intention:

CON: 32% (+5)
LAB: 24% (=)
LDM: 21% (-1)
BXP: 13% (-3)

Via
@Survation Changes w/ 25 Sep.

Quote
Westminster Voting Intention:

CON: 39% (+1)
LAB: 25% (+1)
LDM: 18% (-2)
BXP: 8% (+1)
GRN: 3% (=)

Via
@Kantar 10-15 Oct (Before Deal),
Changes w/ 5-9 Sep.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 12:16:52 am by filopastry »

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1030 on: October 19, 2019, 10:29:19 am »
Will never understand what possessed someone to add Corbyn's grid to a liverpool banner, let alone one that associates him with the campaign for justice.

Were Corbyn a socialist of the sort that we know Shankly believed in, perhaps I'd think he'd be worthy of the recognition. But personally I don't see how an ostensible football fan, who was a sitting MP in 1989 and ever sign, who never once took it upon himself to discuss or sign anything in parliament (and I can find no evidence online outside parliament either) about the disaster (until after Cameron's government apology in 2012) is someone who should be credited in any way alongside the heroes involved in that campaign in the past and ongoing.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with all of that.

Having said that, Corbyn is no more than a symbol on that banner. I do think the banner and the article correctly reflect the strength of feeling on Merseyside about what they see as the Labour party, as the article puts it, returning to its roots, and what the rest of the UK sees as some sort of lurch to the far left. It's just a pity it turned out to be someone like Corbyn that symbolises it.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1031 on: October 19, 2019, 10:52:05 am »
Will never understand what possessed someone to add Corbyn's grid to a liverpool banner, let alone one that associates him with the campaign for justice.

Were Corbyn a socialist of the sort that we know Shankly believed in, perhaps I'd think he'd be worthy of the recognition. But personally I don't see how an ostensible football fan, who was a sitting MP in 1989 and ever sign, who never once took it upon himself to discuss or sign anything in parliament (and I can find no evidence online outside parliament either) about the disaster (until after Cameron's government apology in 2012) is someone who should be credited in any way alongside the heroes involved in that campaign in the past and ongoing.
the irony of people using shankly to somehow defend corbyn don’t realise that shankly would have despised such an inept bastard like corbyn as opposed to loving him because ‘he’s a socialist’

Offline Trada

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1032 on: October 19, 2019, 08:40:14 pm »
Jeremy in Liverpool tonight the lucky fucker........ I wish I was.

https://twitter.com/WavertreeCLP/status/1185638178956468224
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1033 on: October 19, 2019, 09:15:07 pm »
Will never understand what possessed someone to add Corbyn's grid to a liverpool banner, let alone one that associates him with the campaign for justice.

Were Corbyn a socialist of the sort that we know Shankly believed in, perhaps I'd think he'd be worthy of the recognition. But personally I don't see how an ostensible football fan, who was a sitting MP in 1989 and ever sign, who never once took it upon himself to discuss or sign anything in parliament (and I can find no evidence online outside parliament either) about the disaster (until after Cameron's government apology in 2012) is someone who should be credited in any way alongside the heroes involved in that campaign in the past and ongoing.

When Corbyn went to watch us last year, his team wanted him to walk in front of the kop to get a similar photo to Shankly ... the club told them no ... true story.
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1034 on: October 19, 2019, 09:29:00 pm »
When Corbyn went to watch us last year, his team wanted him to walk in front of the kop to get a similar photo to Shankly ... the club told them no ... true story.

That's the type of gamble he would take it could easily go wrong as he finds out a lot of RAWK fuckers are sat in the front row.

He's loved in Liverpool I can't get my head around the fact people find that hard to deal with and understand.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline killer-heels

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1035 on: October 19, 2019, 09:34:29 pm »
That's the type of gamble he would take it could easily go wrong as he finds out a lot of RAWK fuckers are sat in the front row.

He's loved in Liverpool I can't get my head around the fact people find that hard to deal with and understand.

There is absolutely no way he should be allowed to do that and I don't even hate him the way others on here do. Its far, far to divisive.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1036 on: October 19, 2019, 10:05:27 pm »
Jeremy in Liverpool tonight the lucky fucker........ I wish I was.

I was last weekend so unfortunately he missed out on seeing me.

That's the type of gamble he would take it could easily go wrong as he finds out a lot of RAWK fuckers are sat in the front row.

He's loved in Liverpool I can't get my head around the fact people find that hard to deal with and understand.

Dream on. The noisy committed comrades will make out he is universally popular and if you're in their bubble and only ever listen to them you'd be forgiven for thinking so, but from my own experiences and talking to people he's marmite amongst the general population.

None of my mates particularly like him, some really despise him for what's happened or been allowed to happen under his watch, and we are all Labour or ex-Labour going back to starting voting in the early 70's.
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Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1037 on: October 19, 2019, 10:15:55 pm »
When Corbyn went to watch us last year, his team wanted him to walk in front of the kop to get a similar photo to Shankly ... the club told them no ... true story.

Course they did. Parasites. His pal galloway tried to invoke Shankly ("Shankly") too just a few months back, so he could be antisemitic.

Great to hear the club jibbed the c*nt and his fawning team of idiots. Am sure there'd have been a few hits on google looking up "Shankly socialism" the night before among his team of Londoners

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1038 on: October 19, 2019, 10:34:33 pm »
When Corbyn went to watch us last year, his team wanted him to walk in front of the kop to get a similar photo to Shankly ... the club told them no ... true story.
and quite right too, the club should in no way be used as a prop for that absolute gobshite, that banner is an absolute embarrassment but that would be a different level

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #1039 on: October 20, 2019, 12:17:30 am »
the irony of people using shankly to somehow defend corbyn don’t realise that shankly would have despised such an inept bastard like corbyn as opposed to loving him because ‘he’s a socialist’
and you are basing that assertion on exactly what ? seems like you are using Shankly to spout your own prejudicial shit opinion on this matter and that is about as dishonest and contemptible as it could ever get 
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