Topic: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles

[Elmo!]

Ruth Davidson is stepping down

Looks like it but not confirmed yet. Wouldn't put it past her to come out with a statement blaming it all on the SNP and how Boris is now her best pal.

[Zeb]

Looks like it but not confirmed yet. Wouldn't put it past her to come out with a statement blaming it all on the SNP and how Boris is now her best pal.

Airy rumours that a few on the Westminster payroll vote will be walking with her. Same caveat as you give applies.

[Elmo!]

Airy rumours that a few on the Westminster payroll vote will be walking with her. Same caveat as you give applies.

Apparently this has been planned for a few days and has nothing to do with todays events.... I doubt it but if so is this her long awaited move into Westminster politics? They will need to find her a safe seat in England.

[Yorkykopite]

True or not?

I'm happy to read any theories or even better proof that lower earners do not consistently make political decisions that lead to worse living conditions.

Read a history of the labour movement in this country. Any one will do.

Your contempt is on a par with some 19th century backwoods Tory squire.

[Zeb]

Apparently this has been planned for a few days and has nothing to do with todays events.... I doubt it but if so is this her long awaited move into Westminster politics? They will need to find her a safe seat in England.

Interesting. She playing Feyd to Johnson's Rabban?

The spice must flow.

----

Just for the different perspective on events, Tory Lord Finkelstein in The Times (paywall)

Spoiler

Is this a constitutional crisis? No. Might there be one? Yes. Is this a democratic and political crisis? Absolutely.

The British constitution, in so far as such a thing really exists, gives the executive a huge amount of political control over parliament, largely through its control of parliamentary time. The ability to choose the time of a Queen’s Speech is part of that power. In using it, the government is simply using its discretion. They are using their constitutional position to make life more difficult for those who oppose their policy.

But that is simply a formal view. We now have, effectively, a new government with a quite different policy to its predecessor. It is trying to reduce the amount of time parliament has to rule on whether it supports this new policy. In circumstances in which it seems overwhelmingly likely that it does not. So of course it is a democratic and political crisis.

Parliament will now struggle even harder to assert its control, perhaps through a no confidence vote or legal ways of forcing the government to act. The government may try to frustrate such manoeuvres — delaying an election, for instance until after Brexit, or refusing to seek an extension when mandated - and this would turn the political crisis into a constitutional one.

The fact that the government is able to use its power as it has done, does not make it wise or right to do so, of course.

In the short term, it is true, it is showing determination. It is signalling to the European Union that it cannot expect parliament to stop no deal, so the EU must come to terms. I doubt very much that this will happen, but the government disagrees and thinks there is a good chance if they are firm enough.

And they are also taking advantage of the weakness of their opponents. Unable to agree on how to replace the government, even for long enough to stop no deal, the alliance of remain parties needs to prise time out of this government’s hands in order to pass legislation. Naturally the government is trying to make this as difficult as possible.

They are entitled to point out that parliament has had at least a year to come forward with a policy and has not done so. While everyone is very keen that the Commons should assert its power, the truth is that the more it has asserted itself, the worse things have got. What did they think would happen?

Yet beyond the short run, it is rarely a good political idea to unite your opponents in righteous indignation. Fury may propel them to act together or encourage their supporters to vote together. It could produce an election, and one in which the Conservatives lose more through tactical voting than they gain from leave voters defecting from Labour.

It would also be one in which two central messages against Mr Corbyn — that he isn’t a proper parliamentary democrat and is excessively ideological — are instead turned against Mr Johnson.

Opposition unity might also make it easier for a non Tory coalition to be assembled after an election, whenever it comes, and one which decides on a policy of joining the customs union and the single market, making the no deal pointless.

It is also rarely a good idea to use parliamentary tactics in power that you would not wish to see used against you.

So the Conservative Party may regret later what it is doing now, especially if no deal does not go as well as some members of the government expect. But such regret may take a while.

[close]

[Iska]

Good posts this afternoon. I was taken by this point:

the left in practically every other country manage to stake a claim on patriotism. Our left are incredibly prone to the"you're all idiots and i'm getting out of this shithole as soon as I can" shouts

Yeah I recognise and despise that voice, and the accusations of racism that often accompany it.

The Olympics opening ceremony is the best British example of what you’re talking about I think, but in retrospect it was gone as soon as it arrived.  I remember Neil Atkinson saying Labour should run on it.

[TepidT2O]

Thanks - I mean it though, I really worry about the future.

My boys are 11.

I worry too.

But then I have to trust that they will help improve it...

(You’ll set a great example to them though, don’t wirry).

[Red Beret]

Constitutional clusterfuck.  Does anybody have a bucket of sand I can put my head into please?

[ShakaHislop]

Good posts this afternoon. I was taken by this point:Yeah I recognise and despise that voice, and the accusations of racism that often accompany it.

The Olympics opening ceremony is the best British example of what you’re talking about I think, but in retrospect it was gone as soon as it arrived.  I remember Neil Atkinson saying Labour should run on it.

That would be because a lot of the most fervent St George/Union Flag wavers do hold bigoted views.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

That would be because a lot of the most fervent St George/Union Flag wavers do hold bigoted views.

would say also a legacy of the likes of the national front using it in their heyday in the 80s

[Ghost Town]

Good posts this afternoon. I was taken by this point:Yeah I recognise and despise that voice, and the accusations of racism that often accompany it.

The Olympics opening ceremony is the best British example of what you’re talking about I think, but in retrospect it was gone as soon as it arrived.  I remember Neil Atkinson saying Labour should run on it.

One further issue, to add to what has already been said, is that most of the patriotic ground has already been annexed by the right wing. They've grabbed it, camped on it, developed it and put up their homes and hotels and lurid fleshpots on it. There's very little patriotic ground for the left to build on without rubbing shoulders with what they would view as utter deplorables.

I agree it's worth trying; just not so sure how to go about it.

Although there is the opposite point of view as well; why should the left fall into the patriotic trap? If one is internationalist, globalist by nature; if one looks outward and sees the world as, ideally, a community of equals, and views place of birth as mere happenstance, then how much mileage can they really wring out of patriotic rhetoric without coming across as insincere? Surely it's better to try and take people with you to higher ground than attempt to slum it?

I do agree with you and alonsoisared about the tenor of discussion, though. Though I'm not sure it's a left problem so much as a general one. Hostility and rancour and belligerence and 'take downs' and 'shaming' etc have monopolised the conversational strategies in recent years, esp. on social media

[alonsoisared]

That's a good point and yes, it's through art and popular culture that we've traditionally bound ourselves together in a 'patriotic' sense, presenting and treasuring notions of Britishness via archetypes and literary representations. But again these tend to take on an understated and self-effacing quality, which seems to work better for us than outright bombast and triumphalism. This even goes right back to days of Empire, where we were more likely to be celebrating great disasters like the Charge of the Light Brigade in poetry rather than great success. And while Little Englanders have always been with us it's telling that the very phrase is pejorative, and not a term of pride or identification. Very few Little Englanders will admit to being so, for example.

What Frottage, Cummings and the new alt-right are tapping into is a smaller wellspring of triumphalist and self-aggrandising populism that has always been there, but hidden away, treated rather like a mad relative in the attic. Only the mad relative has escaped, and the rest of us, used to a more genteel, 'don't scare the horses' approach aren't quite sure how to cope with it or counter it.

Whether a new kind of tolerant positive celebratory patriotism can develop to win the hearts of the Little Englanders is a fascinating question, and one to keep an eye on, certainly.
Yes as I keep saying you can't reason people out of something they haven't reasoned themselves into. Very few Brexiters had a well-reasoned basis for their position - and the few that had were the cynical manipulators, those out to make fortunes from the event. Evil, but perfectly rational when looked at dispassionately.

So if reason did not bring them to their position, reason will probably not shift them away. I remember Aron Banks (I think) saying something like 'Remain lost because they tried to use reason and argument; Leave won because they went straight for the emotion'

We need to engage Leavers via emotion, but I'm not quite sure how

Nice one GT, I think we're in agreement and you've put it far better than me

A few years ago I was desperately trying to defend Corbyn on here, and I remember Alan rightly pointing out my hypocrisy and the hypocrisy of the left in talking about "the people" while simultaneously slagging them all off and calling them stupid. And that being ideologically pure is useless if you can't win votes. That stuck with me and I guess is something that everyone realises at some point. As you said, we aren't about to reason brexiteers out of brexit at this point. So trying to understand why they voted that way, what parts of human nature and instinct were awoken in them is a lot more useful than attacking all leavers for being pig thick. Leave won that battle of emotions and instinct and the right in general have been winning it in Britain for far too long.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

That would be because a lot of the most fervent St George/Union Flag wavers do hold bigoted views.

To take pride in a flag is small minded in any case.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Although there is the opposite point of view as well; why should the left fall into the patriotic trap? If one is internationalist, globalist by nature; if one looks outward and sees the world as, ideally, a community of equals, and views place of birth as mere happenstance, then how much mileage can they really wring out of patriotic rhetoric without coming across as insincere? Surely it's better to try and take people with you to higher ground than attempt to slum it?

Absolutely spot on. Patriotism for a country just because you were born there totally by chance is just weird.

[TepidT2O]

Next step will be filibustering, apparently multiple bank holidays are to be proposed...

Are people really that easily bought? (I know... yes)


And the queen? It wasn’t her fault.  Imagine if Johnson were president, it would be even worse

[alonsoisared]

Absolutely spot on. Patriotism for a country just because you were born there totally by chance is just weird.

Is it weird though? It's pretty established across the world. Are the Scots and Welsh weird for being proud of where they're from or is it just England that can't do it? Should scousers not feel proud of where they're from, just because they were born there totally by chance?

I think there is some pride that we can all take in where we are from. It's centuries of history, and before you mention it there's a lot of bad shit in there but there's plenty of good as well. It's our families and it's what made us all who we are today. Feeling proud of where you're from is a totally normal thing. It's like it's become trendy though for Britain's left to talk that down while the right sweep up on it.

[Zeb]

Next step will be filibustering, apparently multiple bank holidays are to be proposed...

Are people really that easily bought? (I know... yes)

For a PM with a majority of 1, it's a heck of a thing.

[TepidT2O]

For a PM with a majority of 1, it's a heck of a thing.

It is incredible ....

But it will happen again.

Once it’s been done people wont hesitate to do it again.. although to be fair, article 50 is what have allowed this tactic to be useful

[Elmo!]

Rumour that Angus Robertson will stand in Ruth Davidsons seat if she stands down, and he would be strong favourite to win it - she has a tiny majority and won it at the Tories peak.

Combine that with the byelection in Shetlands tomorrow - which despite traditionally being a Lib Dem stronghold (the equivalent WM seat is their strongest seat in the whole country and has been LD since 1950), seems to be very close and the SNP seem like they have a chance of winning - and the SNP could soon have an outright majority again in the Scottish Parliament.

[Zeb]

It is incredible ....

But it will happen again.

Once it’s been done people wont hesitate to do it again.. although to be fair, article 50 is what have allowed this tactic to be useful

Kind of reminded of how Wimbledon used to define 'entertainment' by counting the number of times the ball got lumped into the opposition's penalty area. Maybe the ends justify the means if it's successful but there's a point where no-one can ignore how few punters there are willing to endure such 'entertainment' for any length of time.

[RedGlen]

Rumour that Angus Robertson will stand in Ruth Davidsons seat if she stands down, and he would be strong favourite to win it - she has a tiny majority and won it at the Tories peak.

Combine that with the byelection in Shetlands tomorrow - which despite traditionally being a Lib Dem stronghold (the equivalent WM seat is their strongest seat in the whole country and has been LD since 1950), seems to be very close and the SNP seem like they have a chance of winning - and the SNP could soon have an outright majority again in the Scottish Parliament.

A reminder for those unfamiliar with the Scottish parliament - the voting system uses a derivative of the proportional representation voting system called Additional Member System (AMS), which is specifically designed to be difficult for any single party to gain a majority, with the intent that coalitions or minority government with other party consent/supply would be the natural course. 

If the SNP do get a majority again, it would only be the second time in Scottish parliament history a single party has held a majority.

[Lad]

Absolutely spot on. Patriotism for a country just because you were born there totally by chance is just weird.

So true. It’s ridiculous. In fact at the next Olympics everyone from every country could compete under the same flag, could be anything, Maybe just a plain brown one or something. That way we wouldn’t have any patriotic nonsense.

[Iska]

Is it weird though? It's pretty established across the world. Are the Scots and Welsh weird for being proud of where they're from or is it just England that can't do it? Should scousers not feel proud of where they're from, just because they were born there totally by chance?

The weirdness or otherwise of it is by-the-by - the fact is that people do feel patriotic and always have, and it feels like bad politics for the left to cede that ground to the other side.

[Zeb]

Is it weird though? It's pretty established across the world. Are the Scots and Welsh weird for being proud of where they're from or is it just England that can't do it? Should scousers not feel proud of where they're from, just because they were born there totally by chance?

I think there is some pride that we can all take in where we are from. It's centuries of history, and before you mention it there's a lot of bad shit in there but there's plenty of good as well. It's our families and it's what made us all who we are today. Feeling proud of where you're from is a totally normal thing. It's like it's become trendy though for Britain's left to talk that down while the right sweep up on it.

Aye. My personal feelings are one thing though, recognising that saying "We'd like to replace the army with a wicker fence" is going to alienate voters who'd otherwise be listening to me telling them about grand plans to sort out problems where they live is another.

Thought this was relevant, so far as Johnson goes. It's from Manchester Evening News' Jen Williams. She's talking to Labour MPs and officials off the record. Think it supports at least some of what you're saying.

Spoiler

Also had a v interesting conversation with a frustrated labour figure (not MP) who predicts the next big political movement will come from the north. ‘Labour died in Scotland quickly and are going down in Wales fast too: there’s no reason to think it couldn’t happen here.’

They cite general resentment around all sorts of things that are overlooked by London, but also the sense that Labour is now two distinct parties that don’t speak to the same electorate. (I would wager that Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson knows this.)

Also a brutal assessment from one MP, which ties in quite nicely with the last quote: ‘Blair took the Tories on on what he thought were their strongest issues in order to neutralise them - I think Boris is to some extent doing that. Bury & Stockport were Tory not that long ago. JC isn’t speaking to those ppl who turn out to vote; who are fundamentally conservative even though they turn out to vote labour - who want their families to get ahead, have a strong sense of fairness, don’t like the benefits system; don’t like immigration And all the time Boris is planning an election...he knows he won’t take the core Labour vote, but there’s far fewer of them than you think.

[close]

Brass tacks is that there's vacuum for some voters and the Tories have been trying to fill it. Most especially since 2015, albeit May of course failed.

[Ghost Town]

Is it weird though? It's pretty established across the world. Are the Scots and Welsh weird for being proud of where they're from or is it just England that can't do it? Should scousers not feel proud of where they're from, just because they were born there totally by chance?

I think there is some pride that we can all take in where we are from. It's centuries of history, and before you mention it there's a lot of bad shit in there but there's plenty of good as well. It's our families and it's what made us all who we are today. Feeling proud of where you're from is a totally normal thing. It's like it's become trendy though for Britain's left to talk that down while the right sweep up on it.

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. Traditionally in Britain the right has been as low-key as the left when it comes to overt expressions of patriotism, because understatement and self-effacement have long been seen as a mark of character. So I'm not sure if it's a case of the left has failed on patriotism while all the right has won; rather that a certain vulgar subsection of the right has annexed all the patriotic ground and both the left and the more understated right therefore find it hard to make camp there.

I don't know, it's a tricky subject, and a very big subject. The difference between the patriotism of the marginalised, for example, which is usually constructive (valorising nativist features like language and folklore) and often celebratory - with some aggressive and combative elements in there, of course - compared to the patriotism of the alpha states - or those who wish to be seen as alpha states - which is often triumphalist and arrogant, with a tendency to become belligerent, intolerant and authoritarian.

But generally, yes, there's nothing wrong with being proud of the hand you are dealt, and even the left has that pride - just listen to their songs and 'folk history'. It's how that pride is manifested that makes all the difference.

The British tendency of old - from both left and right - has been to underplay it, and that tends to fit in well with a moderate leftist, globalist mindset. It doesn't mean any less pride is felt, just that it is not too openly expounded, being manifest instead in other areas of life, like art and culture and language and folk traditions.

Little Englanders have always been seen as something of an embarrassment by both left and right, but they and what I think of as the vulgar right have erupted now and then, only to fail to make up too much ground. They're erupting again at the moment, and I take seriously your suggestion that the left need to make up ground in this regard in order to win over a certain constituency of people at this difficult time.

But ultimately, long term, I don't know if overt patriotism will ever be a British thing, and that may be for the best. Other countries may be better at doing it, but we only have to look at the US to see how it can quickly become malformed and malignant.

[west_london_red]

And the queen? It wasn’t her fault.  Imagine if Johnson were president, it would be even worse

Apparently Rees-Mogg was one of the people who went to see the Queen today.

I doubt there’s been many times in her life she’s been in a room and not been the poshest person there.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Great post

[ShakaHislop]

Aye. My personal feelings are one thing though, recognising that saying "We'd like to replace the army with a wicker fence" is going to alienate voters who'd otherwise be listening to me telling them about grand plans to sort out problems where they live is another.

Thought this was relevant, so far as Johnson goes. It's from Manchester Evening News' Jen Williams. She's talking to Labour MPs and officials off the record. Think it supports at least some of what you're saying.

Spoiler

[close]

Brass tacks is that there's vacuum for some voters and the Tories have been trying to fill it. Most especially since 2015, albeit May of course failed.

So what's the proposed solution from such officials and MPs? For Labour to try and out-do the Tories on the benefit claimant and immigration bashing front? Or just shite like "Citizens Assemblies" which doesn't sound like a creation of a London-based thinktank at all.

[redmark]

Although there is the opposite point of view as well; why should the left fall into the patriotic trap? If one is internationalist, globalist by nature; if one looks outward and sees the world as, ideally, a community of equals, and views place of birth as mere happenstance, then how much mileage can they really wring out of patriotic rhetoric without coming across as insincere? Surely it's better to try and take people with you to higher ground than attempt to slum it?

I do agree with you and alonsoisared about the tenor of discussion, though. Though I'm not sure it's a left problem so much as a general one. Hostility and rancour and belligerence and 'take downs' and 'shaming' etc have monopolised the conversational strategies in recent years, esp. on social media

Absolutely. And yet...

You'd fit in brilliantly at the Guardian with the "I blame Remainers for the shitshow that is Brexit" perspective.

Where was the positive, internationalist, outward looking voice in the Remain campaign?

Just checked the Britain Stronger In Europe official remain campaign website. Headline reasons to vote remain:
- More jobs
- Lower prices
- Workers rights

Hmmm, ok. Not much there for the comfortably retired, or those who have come to expect any jobs bonanza to be in the south east rather than Hartlepool, and still actually based on a heavily implied "... compared to the disaster of leaving...".

What else?

Martin Lewis: "I'm generally risk averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety."

Inspirational, I'm sure you'll agree. On the front page, no less. Maybe there was more on their 'news' feed?

- Political leaders, academics, economists and business leaders (yep, pretty much 'the elite') say we're Stronger In
- British business 'benefits massively' from EU
- Some celebrities think we're Stronger In
- Trade Unions think we're Stronger In
- The patriotic case for staying in
- More celebrities
- Bear Grylls
- "Don't wake up to bad news the morning after..."

There was no broad and coherent positive, optimistic narrative for Remaining. The leave campaign's attack on 'project fear' struck home not because the points the remainers made were false, but that they were negative. That's partly a problem with the way the referendum was set of course, as it's easier to argue for change than not. But the attempt was pitiful, regardless.

A better (and more involved) articulation of the point, from a couple of months after the referendum defeat:

http://www.commongrounduk.com/2016/08/31/why-britain-should-lead-the-eu-not-leave-it/

The Czechs say a pessimist is an optimist who has just seen the news. I know the feeling. Away on holiday I glimpsed the news. Rise in race hate. NHS facing cuts. The pound falling. Investment stalling. A Dept for Brexit. A mini EU summit highlighting Britain’s new found irrelevance.

But I’m optimistic even now about Britain in Europe. Why? Because there is a big, bold, optimistic argument to make for Britain in Europe. It is a streetwise and patriotic case – with a populist edge. Made with conviction, it might even – one day – be a vote winner. Unfortunately it’s a case that has hardly ever been made but if we are to have any chance at all of staying in the EU, it’s a case we now have to make: Britain should be leading in Europe, not leaving it.

Full disclosure, I worked with Gordon Brown on a short online film arguing this case. Very few politicians saw the need for a big positive vision – something more than the Project Fear. Caroline Lucas was one exception, and so was Gordon Brown.  His short film got nearly 5 million views – the most watched online film of the campaign, and a sign perhaps of the hunger for a positive vision for Britain in Europe?  The New Statesman he guest edited is packed with new thinking.

Language matters. “Remain” was a fatally defensive mouse of a word. Has anyone ever been inspired by a call to “remain”? “Leave” by contrast was packed with the promise of change. And where Brexit campaigners promised cunningly to “Take back control” Remain mumbled verblessly about “Stronger In”. “Lead not leave” is strong and clear. It points to Britain at its best – internationalist and engaged with the world.  It should have been on signs, T-shirts, flags, and on everyone’s lips.

___

Stronger In. Didn't mean much to those who feel weak as a result of nearly a decade of austerity at that time, or a lifetime of economic progress focused on the south east - or indeed to those who actually remember (or remember when it was a recent memory) when we were undoubtedly stronger, with an Empire no less, and were encouraged to draw the simple conclusion of "... before we joined the EU". One of the reasons for the constant appeals to a wartime spirit of the Blitz, of course. When we really were stronger.

The Remain campaign was dreadful and is indeed to blame. Blaming Leavers is pointless and defeatist. "They lied and broke electoral rules". Yeah, no one cares. The only thing Remainers could have done (and perhaps still might do) is to actually make a better case.

[alonsoisared]

The weirdness or otherwise of it is by-the-by - the fact is that people do feel patriotic and always have, and it feels like bad politics for the left to cede that ground to the other side.

Yep, that's exactly it.

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. Traditionally in Britain the right has been as low-key as the left when it comes to overt expressions of patriotism, because understatement and self-effacement have long been seen as a mark of character. So I'm not sure if it's a case of the left has failed on patriotism while all the right has won; rather that a certain vulgar subsection of the right has annexed all the patriotic ground and both the left and the more understated right therefore find it hard to make camp there.

I don't know, it's a tricky subject, and a very big subject. The difference between the patriotism of the marginalised, for example, which is usually constructive (valorising nativist features like language and folklore) and often celebratory - with some aggressive and combative elements in there, of course - compared to the patriotism of the alpha states - or those who wish to be seen as alpha states - which is often triumphalist and arrogant, with a tendency to become belligerent, intolerant and authoritarian.

But generally, yes, there's nothing wrong with being proud of the hand you are dealt, and even the left has that pride - just listen to their songs and 'folk history'. It's how that pride is manifested that makes all the difference.

The British tendency of old - from both left and right - has been to underplay it, and that tends to fit in well with a moderate leftist, globalist mindset. It doesn't mean any less pride is felt, just that it is not too openly expounded, being manifest instead in other areas of life, like art and culture and language and folk traditions.

Little Englanders have always been seen as something of an embarrassment by both left and right, but they and what I think of as the vulgar right have erupted now and then, only to fail to make up too much ground. They're erupting again at the moment, and I take seriously your suggestion that the left need to make up ground in this regard in order to win over a certain constituency of people at this difficult time.

But ultimately, long term, I don't know if overt patriotism will ever be a British thing, and that may be for the best. Other countries may be better at doing it, but we only have to look at the US to see how it can quickly become malformed and malignant.

Another really good post. Plenty of food for thought, it's a subject I've been thinking about a lot since I've been out of the country but I've never equated the political side with that natural self effacing, distinctly British characteristic. It's actually probably one of our most charming qualities!

[Zeb]

So what's the proposed solution from such officials and MPs? For Labour to try and out-do the Tories on the benefit claimant and immigration bashing front? Or just shite like "Citizens Assemblies" which doesn't sound like a creation of a London-based thinktank at all.

Probably doesn't sound like a think tank idea because deliberative democracy is a pretty old idea, and not British even in its most recent incarnation. Easier to reject attempts to find compromise as shite when you need the cliff edge to force another referendum, I suppose.

You'd have to ask Jen for what solutions they proposed. I can only guess because a lot of this is baked in so far that even ditching freedom of movement isn't enough for the Lexiters to be taken seriously by their right wing fellow travellers any more.

[Snail]

That’s a great post.

[ShakaHislop]

Absolutely. And yet...

Where was the positive, internationalist, outward looking voice in the Remain campaign?

Just checked the Britain Stronger In Europe official remain campaign website. Headline reasons to vote remain:
- More jobs
- Lower prices
- Workers rights

Hmmm, ok. Not much there for the comfortably retired, or those who have come to expect any jobs bonanza to be in the south east rather than Hartlepool, and still actually based on a heavily implied "... compared to the disaster of leaving...".

What else?

Martin Lewis: "I'm generally risk averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety."

Inspirational, I'm sure you'll agree. On the front page, no less. Maybe there was more on their 'news' feed?

- Political leaders, academics, economists and business leaders (yep, pretty much 'the elite') say we're Stronger In
- British business 'benefits massively' from EU
- Some celebrities think we're Stronger In
- Trade Unions think we're Stronger In
- The patriotic case for staying in
- More celebrities
- Bear Grylls
- "Don't wake up to bad news the morning after..."

There was no broad and coherent positive, optimistic narrative for Remaining. The leave campaign's attack on 'project fear' struck home not because the points the remainers made were false, but that they were negative. That's partly a problem with the way the referendum was set of course, as it's easier to argue for change than not. But the attempt was pitiful, regardless.

A better (and more involved) articulation of the point, from a couple of months after the referendum defeat:

http://www.commongrounduk.com/2016/08/31/why-britain-should-lead-the-eu-not-leave-it/

The Czechs say a pessimist is an optimist who has just seen the news. I know the feeling. Away on holiday I glimpsed the news. Rise in race hate. NHS facing cuts. The pound falling. Investment stalling. A Dept for Brexit. A mini EU summit highlighting Britain’s new found irrelevance.

But I’m optimistic even now about Britain in Europe. Why? Because there is a big, bold, optimistic argument to make for Britain in Europe. It is a streetwise and patriotic case – with a populist edge. Made with conviction, it might even – one day – be a vote winner. Unfortunately it’s a case that has hardly ever been made but if we are to have any chance at all of staying in the EU, it’s a case we now have to make: Britain should be leading in Europe, not leaving it.

Full disclosure, I worked with Gordon Brown on a short online film arguing this case. Very few politicians saw the need for a big positive vision – something more than the Project Fear. Caroline Lucas was one exception, and so was Gordon Brown.  His short film got nearly 5 million views – the most watched online film of the campaign, and a sign perhaps of the hunger for a positive vision for Britain in Europe?  The New Statesman he guest edited is packed with new thinking.

Language matters. “Remain” was a fatally defensive mouse of a word. Has anyone ever been inspired by a call to “remain”? “Leave” by contrast was packed with the promise of change. And where Brexit campaigners promised cunningly to “Take back control” Remain mumbled verblessly about “Stronger In”. “Lead not leave” is strong and clear. It points to Britain at its best – internationalist and engaged with the world.  It should have been on signs, T-shirts, flags, and on everyone’s lips.

___

Stronger In. Didn't mean much to those who feel weak as a result of nearly a decade of austerity at that time, or a lifetime of economic progress focused on the south east - or indeed to those who actually remember when we were undoubtedly stronger, with an Empire no less, and were encouraged to draw the simple conclusion of "... before we joined the EU". One of the reasons for the constant appeals to a wartime spirit of the Blitz, of course. When we really were stronger.

The Remain campaign was dreadful and is indeed to blame. Blaming Leavers is pointless and defeatist. "They lied and broke electoral rules". Yeah, no one cares. The only thing Remainers could have done (and perhaps still might do) is to actually make a better case.

People who voted to Leave are fundamentally responsible for all this, and no amount of deflecting blame onto the Remain campaign changes that.

[redmark]

People who voted to Leave are fundamentally responsible for all this, and no amount of deflecting blame onto the Remain campaign changes that.

Sorted. We just wait for them to realise the error of their ways, then.

[Zeb]

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. Traditionally in Britain the right has been as low-key as the left when it comes to overt expressions of patriotism, because understatement and self-effacement have long been seen as a mark of character.

See I read that and started to hum...

"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true
The Russians shall not have Constantinople."

All a bit Rees-Mogg, so perhaps *too* old to be traditional?

[Red-Soldier]

People who voted to Leave are fundamentally responsible for all this, and no amount of deflecting blame onto the Remain campaign changes that.

It was one of the worst political campaigns I can ever remember.  An incoherent, jumbled mess.

[Red-Soldier]

Sorted. We just wait for them to realise the error of their ways, then.

 

[killer-heels]

Sorted. We just wait for them to realise the error of their ways, then.

There is no better case. There is no better way to get the messaging across. Ultimately the only way a Pro EU case will ever win is after a few generations or if it goes to shit so much that we have to try to get back in.

Remain are never winning another referendum.

[So… Howard Philips]

See I read that and started to hum...

"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true
The Russians shall not have Constantinople."

All a bit Rees-Mogg, so perhaps *too* old to be traditional?

Rees-Mogg would have got on very well with the gentlemanly Raglan but he would have thought Cardigan a cad and a bounder.

[redmark]

There is no better case. There is no better way to get the messaging across. Ultimately the only way a Pro EU case will ever win is after a few generations or if it goes to shit so much that we have to try to get back in.

Remain are never winning another referendum.

Yorky will be along shortly to reply to you with an example or two of the power of actual political leadership and message. But you didn't read the last ten he posted for you, either.