Topic: May 2019 Local Elections (officially nothing to do with Brexit but, you know...)

[Nobby Reserve]

Labour stumbled on their policy of 'deliberate ambiguity' prior to the 2017 elections and managed to attract a large number of remainers, whilst not losing a catastrophic number of leave votes. That policy won't work now as the muddied waters have clarified somewhat and positions hardened. Labour's continuing insistence on following versions of it is merely causing them to fall between two stools; hardline Leavers are flocking to Frottage's new party or sticking with the BNP/UKIP. Remainers are increasingly abandoning Labour as Corbyn & McDonnell hold out against the overwhelming wishes of their party (from MPs through to ordinary members) and take an unambiguously pro-2nd Ref/pro-Remain position.

I'm far less antagonistic towards the current Labour Party than most, overall, because I see them as the only opportunity in my lifetime so far (I'm 47) for a left-of-centre government to implement the sort of policies I want to see. I've endured throughout my life variations of right-of-centre, pro-corporate, neo-liberal governments since even before 1979.

In every facet of everyday government policy, the pernicious influence of 'big business' holds sway, whether that's the NHS, housing, workers' rights, transport, taxation, whatever. This needs to end, and corporations have their interfering bollocks chopped off. Only a radical government would have any inclination to take this on. You're not going to get that with 'business-friendly' Lib Dems or Chuka's CUKoos.

But Corbyn seems determined to dig his heels in over Brexit and not play the political game, when taking such an unambiguously pro-2nd Ref/pro-Remain position would deliver a huge net polling gain.

Yes, there would be a modest further loss of pro-Leave votes, and some inbred constituencies where the window-lickers wave union jacks in their 6-fingered hands might even fall out of Labour hands. But the net effect of picking up the Remain vote would be substantial - especially in swing seats.

[Nobby Reserve]

The main topic of debate for a large part of wirral has been the proposed building on green belt land under a labour controlled council. They took a bit of a kicking as result

Not just in Wirral.

In St Helens - hardly an enlightened haven of environmentalism - the Greens won their first ever seats (2), whilst surging into second place in a whole host of other wards.

Part of this is that the Greens are the only pro-Remain left-of-centre party available to vote for (the LD's are absolutely right-of-centre overall, and won't be forgiven for a generation for the glee many of them showed - like Alexander - when rubber-stamping/helping implement Tory cuts). I voted Green for this reason.

The other aspect is that councils are being forced by central government to rip-up greenbelt for new housing targets on a massive scale. Whilst the choices of specific land made by Labour councils is down to them, the unrealistic targets and the specifics regarding the sites are being driven by the giant housebuilders, most of which are major donors to the Tory Party and have for decades influenced Tory policy.

There's well enough brownfield sites to build on, but these are generally:


1. In the less desirable (expensive) areas

2. Often smaller sites, suitable for building only 20-50 units per site

3. Have remedial & decontamination costs attached

The big, all-powerful housebuilders want huge developments (200+ units) on 'blank-canvas' agricultural fields, on the edge of the nice parts of towns. This maximises their already obscene levels of profits.

Housing policy needs root and branch reform, with the focus being on protecting the quality of lives of existing residents, whilst building affordable housing to address the housing crisis. The big housebuilders and their pernicious influence need to be kept at arms length from policy-making.

[Nobby Reserve]

Boorish tweeted last night that he'd just voted for the Tory candidate in his local elections.

It was then pointed out that local elections weren't taking place his his area.

He deleted the Tweet.

Another lie from the perpetually lying twat.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/03/boris-johnson-claims-voted-not-election-area

[Riquende]

Boorish tweeted last night that he'd just voted for the Tory candidate in his local elections.

It was then pointed out that local elections weren't taking place his his area.

He deleted the Tweet.

Another lie from the perpetually lying twat.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/03/boris-johnson-claims-voted-not-election-area

To be fair to Boris (and yes I do feel dirty), looking at the tweet in question it looks like something pushed out via Tory HQ probably to all ministers to tweet if relevant. I'd assume someone on his team lazily did so before realising the problem.

[Nobby Reserve]

Wish the ultra left would fuck off and make there own failed party because they are just bringing down everyone else with them.

Going off the 2017 manifesto, the policies of Corbyn-Labour aren't anything like 'ultra-left'. In fact, it was what I would call 'moderate-left'. Even against the Thatcher-lite policies of NuLabour it wasn't particularly anomalous.

I dare say the next GE manifesto would be a little more radical, but I wouldn't expect it to go that much further left.

I'll join you in condemning Corbyn-Labour's stance on Brexit, but look at the policies and tell me which ones are 'ultra-left'.

[Nobby Reserve]

To be fair to Boris (and yes I do feel dirty), looking at the tweet in question it looks like something pushed out via Tory HQ probably to all ministers to tweet if relevant. I'd assume someone on his team lazily did so before realising the problem.

Perhaps. What's his excuse for all the other lies?

[Red Beret]

Corbyn trying to appeal to both sides on Brexit.  When will he realise he can't? 

you can't fool all of the people all of the time, and increasingly Corbyn isn't fooling anybody except his own increasingly fanatical die hards.

[Red Beret]

https://twitter.com/bbcelection/status/1124262307196997634/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1124262307196997634&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Fmay%2F02%2Flocal-elections-2019-results-votes-counted-live-news

Not much change from the previous update.

[Nobby Reserve]

Corbyn trying to appeal to both sides on Brexit.  When will he realise he can't? 

you can't fool all of the people all of the time, and increasingly Corbyn isn't fooling anybody except his own increasingly fanatical die hards.

Exactly. Falling between two stools and shooting himself in the foot.

[John C]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

[Nobby Reserve]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

Ah, the good old Brexit Broadcasting Party

With 'Comical Ali' Kuenssberg only this morning dismissing the huge LD gains as "A Lib Dem recovery of sorts" as she continues her sterling job as Teresa May's Press Secretary.

[Red Beret]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

Aye.  It's wrong and quite deliberate.  A leaver is more likely to spoil their ballot or not vote at all than vote for a Remain party; in fact, if they were smart they'd actually go out and vote for fear of allowing Remain to set the agenda.

This isn't about people being angry over how Brexit is being handled.  It's about people not wanting Brexit at all.

[Titi Camara]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

Ian Dunt
The whispers came all week. While the headlines focused on the sacking of defence secretary Gavin Williamson, a weird rumour started floating around. Labour and the Tories were close to a Brexit deal, people said. The spokesmen were sounding increasingly bullish. The 'landing zone' between their two positions had been spotted.
Once the local election results started dribbling in, the whispers turned into shouts. Labour had done terribly, as had the Conservatives. Both were being punished for failing to deliver Brexit. Something had to be done, and quickly. Time to sign-off on the deal.
This analysis, of course, makes no sense. The big winners of the night were the Greens and the Liberal Democrats, both parties with extremely clear pro-Remain policies. If this was a punishment for failing to deliver Brexit, it was a tremendously weird way of showing it. And yet public support for Remain is treated by journalists like a ghostly phenomenon - something we suspect might be in the air but have been reliably assured does not exist.

After all, Remain lost the referendum, so in the binary win-lose mind of many political commentators it should have at that point have simply vanished.
Demonstrable instances of Remain support are ignored. The Remainers who worked to deny Theresa May her majority in the 2017 general election were wallpapered over by the relentless nonsense about 80% of voters backing parties with pro-Brexit manifestos. The huge rallies in London became the subject of a whole subculture of crowd-counting methodology experts. The six-million strong Revoke petition was dismissed as a leaky and unreliable Twitter exercise. Remain voters are treated like an old family scandal - the thing polite visitors won't mention when they come over for dinner.
This led to the extraordinary sight this morning of political commentators looking at a screen showing the Tories down, Labour down, Ukip down, and the Greens and Lib Dems up - before promptly coming to the conclusion that voters were sending a message to get Brexit over with. The level of cognitive dissonance is quite remarkable.

But regardless, that is where we are, and it was what many Labour MPs heard loud and clear. Suddenly there was an increased pressure to seal a deal with the Tories next week.

It is worth remembering that doing so is simply insane. Put aside the rights-and-wrongs of it. On a basic strategic level, it is crazy for Labour to do.
First, it will cut the party in half. In a flash, Jeremy Corbyn will lose all his Remain MPs. And he will not lose them in a briefly humiliating vote which will be soon forgotten. He will lose them in an era-defining vote which will be remembered forever. That scar will stay there, exacerbated by every Brexit event which takes place afterwards. Look at it this way: Change UK MPs will be really, really hoping he does it.
Labour won't just share the blame for what's about to happen. It'll be worse than that. Labour will own it. So many Tories oppose a customs union that a majority of the governing party are likely to vote against, meaning that if it passes it'll need more Labour votes than Tory votes. May won't just be binding Corbyn's hands to Brexit, she will be passing him the disgusting muck-encrusted chalice in its entirety.
This deal is not going to be popular. May lies when she says that the withdrawal agreement draws a line under Brexit. It barely even starts it. All it finalises is the divorce. Ahead of us, there are countless years of talks, many of which will likely take place in the humiliating position of the backstop, during which the EU will continue to out-manoeuvre and out-negotiate us, just as it has for the last three years. To call it humbling is to give in to euphemism. It'll have all the dignity of a middle-aged man caught trying to cheat on his wife in a London nightclub.  And it will keep on going, day-after-day, relentlessly, a droning mixture of tedium and embarrassment, years after people lost any interest in the issue.
Remainers will hate it because it is Brexit - and precisely as self-harming and insane as they warned it would be.
Brexiters will hate it because it is awful - and they can tell themselves the fantasy that it would all have been fine if we had just no-dealed. In fact, that would make precisely no difference. It would be a harsher shock of humiliation and chaos, followed by a return to talks on precisely the same terms as before. But they won't know that. The unicorns will live freely on their sky-island, unaffected the grim refuting reality which an ERG victory would entail.
And the plan is for Labour to buy into that? It is crazy. It would destroy Corbyn and end the party for a generation. It would make the Lib Dems' decision to support tuition fees look like a masterstroke of electoral ingenuity.
The honest truth is that there is no exit from this situation at a parliamentary level. It does not exist. The only way to break the deadlock is to go back to the public for another referendum. That's no longer just some Remainer strategy. It's the only logical course of action from where we are now.

But of course, that cannot be contemplated, because Remain ceased to exist. So we are forced to go through this dreadful charade all over again, for no discernible purpose, and with no rhyme or reason.

[filopastry]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

It is also very clearly the narrative the Tory and Labour leaderships are pushing.

At this stage I think the rumours are likely true and we will see the Tory and Labour leadership present some stitch-up "compromise" on customs arrangements in the coming days.

They will lose some more Tory rebels over that but enough will go along with the Labour leadership on the Labour benches to get it through.

When that happens Labour go from being a party I would no longer vote for, to one I will actively campaign against.

[Nobby Reserve]

...

Dunt nails it as always.

The ironic thing is that the journalists and Brexit supporters keep screeching that there is no majority support for Remain. Yet are scared shitless of a second referendum.

[oldfordie]

Yes, sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't mean that the Labour Party structure or organisation needs protecting, I mean the natural constituency of people who are Labour; the working classes, the poor, the underprivileged, the progressive, the minorities...all those who naturally fit under that umbrella. As a body politic.
You're right, of course, and I'm certainly no blind supporter or Labour stooge. If another credible party were to emerge who could protect the poor and underprivileged, and get the country back on track, protecting our public services and NHS and promoting progressive policies that would make a better world for everyone, then I would support them like a shot. I just have doubts that anything like that will emerge. Lib Dems just don't have the courage of their convictions, the Greens tend to live in a fantasy land and while I understand that you are putting a lot of faith in Change UK, I'm not convinced by them yet.

But I hope you and others are correct; I hope a show of opposition against Labour's current direction has a desired effect of changing their minds before it's to late. I also hope that the longed for revolution in politics actually occurs.

I'm just not very hopeful. I fear when the dust settles it will still be Tories versus Labour, with no other meaningful options. I just hope in that instance that Labour remain strong enough to take on the Tories. Never let it be forgotten that whatever crap Corbyn and Milne get up to,  the Tories will always be worse. We need to sort Labour out, for sure. But it is the Tories who are the eternal, once and future enemy.

I don't think our politicians understood what they were getting into when handling Brexit.
I know many Labour supporters went to bed devastated on the night of the referendum. Corbyn was very positive which I find shocking. the following months showed a lack of foresight by both leaderships. May laying down her red lines and Corbyn announcing Labour would not stand in the way of the triggering of ART 50. both leaders have had to lie through their teeth for over 2 yrs to justify their support on leaving the EU. this is what I find unforgivable, the lies and propaganda argued by our politicians, I expect it from the Tories, I never dreamed Corbyn etc would be reduced to resorting to the same tactics in the hope of winning over votes. it was all so easy over 2 yrs, the lies flowed with ease.
Ive disagreed with some of Labours policies over the years but ive never doubted their commitment to fighting the hard rights policies, I have now lost that confidence for good reason.
I have no idea what is going to happen to UK politics over the next few years, the effect of the Brexit party at a GE is impossible to predict right now. the same applies to ChangeUK.
I expected the LibDems to do very well at the last election, awful result considering they were the main remain party at the time. I can only assume the pennies finally dropped with millions of voters. the local +MEP elections should be a wake up call for Labour.
I am not using Brexit as a stick to beat Corbyn out of the leadership I just think he has now lost any credibility to fight for remaining in the EU. he should be stepping aside voluntary and letting someone who can actually hold the Tories to account, someone who can point out all the lies,Corbyn can't do this as he repeated those same lies himself.

[Yorkykopite]

It was certainly a bad night for the two main Brexit parties. Tories especially, but Labour have done badly too in a stage in the electoral cycle where you'd expect them to do well.

[Yosser0_0]

The main topic of debate for a large part of wirral has been the proposed building on green belt land under a labour controlled council. They took a bit of a kicking as result

We had the same issues in Trafford with the Tories until 2018. The c*nts lost 9 councillors last night, Labour Majority council now, lib dems gained 2 seats and Greens 1. Tories trying to blame national politics, but they held the council for 15 years, it was the way they ran it, charging an extra Ł40 a year per household to empty our green bins if you put garden waste in it, closing Leisure centres, grabbing golf courses and green belts for housing, planning a stadium for Manchester Giants in a residential area wholly unsuited for it and flogging council services off to Amey - they have already been hit with over a Ł1 million in fines since the Tories lost control last year.

We have the same issue here in that the ruling Labour council are approving the planning of thousands of houses on greenbelt land, without infrastructure improvements - the primary motivation being increases in council tax revenue. They are also backing the building of HS2 through greenbelt which offers massive local unheaval and zero local benefits. They've already built hundreds of houses and the local Tory candidate for my ward has been campaigning against the building and HS2 and instead has been campaigning for improvements in local roads, rail links and improved public transport. The choice of candidates was Labour / Tory or UKIP, the Tory candidate won my ward by over 2 to 1, its been Labour since the year dot up until the last couple of elections.

[Pensby]

Diane Abbott managing to make things even worse for Labour by her condescension and obfustication on BBC lunchtime election programme. Thank God Jess Phillips showed some balls.

[Nobby Reserve]

Diane Abbott managing to make things even worse for Labour by her condescension and obfustication on BBC lunchtime election programme. Thank God Jess Phillips showed some balls.

Yeah, as if there aren't enough Brexit-related reasons not to vote Labour, Abbot provides the coup de grace when she opens her idiotic gob and spews her usual garbage. How this fuckwit ever became an MP is a mystery in itself, but Corbyn putting her into a shadow cabinet makes me weep.

[TepidT2O]

Not having the brexit party stand has maybe skewed the results a little.

A swing may also have happened to them.  Ukip now seems something of a busted flush now that they aren’t even pretending not to be racist.

[filopastry]

Excellent piece from Dunt.

Not having the brexit party stand has maybe skewed the results a little.

A swing may also have happened to them.  Ukip now seems something of a busted flush now that they aren’t even pretending not to be racist.

Agree that I think the Hard Brexiteers will do better in the European elections (assuming we actually have them as Labour and Tories may cobble together a stitchup before then), I think Labour will do worse as they can't even hide behind local issues for that one

[rafathegaffa83]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

Surely if it was about not delievering Brexit, then the votes would have gone towards UKIP and the Tories, not openly Remain parties like the Greens/Lib Dems

[TepidT2O]

Excellent piece from Dunt.

Agree that I think the Hard Brexiteers will do better in the European elections (assuming we actually have them as Labour and Tories may cobble together a stitchup before then), I think Labour will do worse as they can't even hide behind local issues for that one

Totally agree.

Although

“Assuming we actually have them”



As if anything is going to get sorted

[filopastry]

Totally agree.

Although

“Assuming we actually have them”



As if anything is going to get sorted

Lots of rumours that May is close to agreement with Labour on some form of Customs Union language, and the tone of Labour comments today makes me think there may be truth in that.

[Statto Red]

Diane Abbott managing to make things even worse for Labour by her condescension and obfustication on BBC lunchtime election programme. Thank God Jess Phillips showed some balls.

Abbott is thick as pigshit, i can sense voters deciding not to vote Labour every time she opens her mouth.

[classycarra]

Do we know what the turnout is for these paradigm shifting local elections yet?

You could work for John McDonnell!

[Mutton Geoff]

Abbott is thick as pigshit, i can sense voters deciding not to vote Labour every time she opens her mouth.

Depends how you define thick as her academic record  suggests she isnt that thick.

[Statto Red]

Depends how you define thick as her academic record  suggests she isnt that thick.

Then why does she always comes across as thick as pigshit.

[TepidT2O]

 "the swings to Labour in many parts of the country show that we can win seats in a general election"

Words fail me

[Zeb]

Depends how you define thick as her academic record  suggests she isnt that thick.

Aye. She's also poorly served by her public loyalty to something she privately disagrees with. People could contrast her performance on this with her speaking on the Tories plans for future immigration.

[stevensr123]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-48131095

Why are they still trotting this line out? It cannot be done. It is impossible. They need to pick a side (as they should have ages ago) and the views of the majority of their voters and members would appear to make that an obvious choice - until you look at the leadership.

I don't see how we get change from the party. It's disheartening.

I'm just glad to see that Remain parties are winning lots of seats.

this is the single biggest issue.

With brexit there is no middle/grey area. But labour are trying to create it with some mythical situation. It’s impossible.

Remainers want to remain, keep all things they have, leavers want out, it’s as simple as that.

Remainers keep saying people didn’t know what type of brexit they wanted, they did, Cameron said it bluntly in his first press conference that leaving Europe means leaving the single market and leaving the customs union.

Problem is both sides know that situation is fucked hence why brexit hasn’t happened and we are currently going through the motions.

Both sides are indecisive hence the current situation with the two main parties, if labour said we are gonna be staying if you vote for us, even some Tories would vote for them. Instead they are not a viable option for any position. That bastard needs to go   

[A-Bomb]

Depends how you define thick as her academic record  suggests she isnt that thick.

She's pretty average her highest academic qualification is a 2:2

Besides a far better way to measure her acumen is to just listen to her speak, that certainly does her no favours.

[TepidT2O]

She's pretty average her highest academic qualification is a 2:2

Besides a far better way to measure her acumen is to just listen to her speak, that certainly does her no favours.

Totally disagree.

She’s terrible at politics, and she doesn’t speak clearly.

But she’s exceptionally clever.

She went to Cambridge in the 60s as the child of a nurse .. and she was black.  This is still almost unheard of.  It’s exceptional.

She’s also a nice person.

None of this makes her good at politics, but I think we shouldn’t undermine her achievements.

Corbyn thick? You could certainly build evidence for that argument

[Lusty]

Totally disagree.

She’s terrible at politics, and she doesn’t speak clearly.

But she’s exceptionally clever.

She went to Cambridge in the 60s as the child of a nurse .. and she was black.  This is still almost unheard of.  It’s exceptional.

She’s also a nice person.

None of this makes her good at politics, but I think we shouldn’t undermine her achievements.

Corbyn thick? You could certainly build evidence for that argument

Chris Grayling got a 2:1 at the same University in the same subject, for comparison...

[filopastry]

Chris Grayling got a 2:1 at the same University in the same subject, for comparison...

Chris Grayling went to the same college I did, this is not something I am very proud of!

[Nobby Reserve]

Chris Grayling got a 2:1 at the same University in the same subject, for comparison...

 

[Lusty]

Chris Grayling went to the same college I did, this is not something I am very proud of!

Jesus. I assume you leave it off your CV?

[TepidT2O]

Chris Grayling got a 2:1 at the same University in the same subject, for comparison...

Ah...

[Zeb]

Manchester results look like they'll have but the one seat changing to Lib Dems. Not a total surprise to the Lib Dems getting it down in Didsbury. What was a surprise were the three or four other wards where Labour's margin over Lib Dems and Indies was down to double figures. My ward performed as expected. Labour candidate won by the traditional 2k+ margin.