Topic: Ki-Jana Hoever

[an fear dearg]

lol

this kid is flying

plane to see with the way he was propelled into the first team.

landed on his two feet in this team. its boarding on brilliance

I reckon he'll just hoever about the first team squad for a few years the club might fear he will be caught up in VVD's slipstream.  He will then though hit the afterburners and and he will be like a Hurricane.  So long as he doesn't get stuka bout the reserves for too long....

[paulrazor]

I reckon he'll just hoever about the first team squad for a few years the club might fear he will be caught up in VVD's slipstream.  He will then though hit the afterburners and and he will be like a Hurricane.  So long as he doesn't get stuka bout the reserves for too long....

cant expect too much too soon or he will be burned out

should fly low for a while. in the turbulent world of football so many youngsters get sucked into a vacuum

[tornado]

He's already six foot aged sixteen, so by the time he's winding his career down for us he could be twice that!  Can't wait to see him grow

I hope he stops around 6'4" ish, else he might fancy a move to the NBA

[RedG13]

I think you're going to be disappointed if you think he's going to be getting 1st team minutes next year.

Probably however they seem to be fast tracking him, I think he get more cup games before anything. I did say backup with Gomez, so Hoever probably get cups games, and possibly some teams closer to bottom of table. We will see how he develops and what the Klopp wants to do  more in the summer.

[Suareznumber7]

Probably however they seem to be fast tracking him, I think he get more cup games before anything. I did say backup with Gomez, so Hoever probably get cups games, and possibly some teams closer to bottom of table. We will see how he develops and what the Klopp wants to do  more in the summer.

I really don't think they are fast tracking him.  Klopp himself said the only reason he was training with the first team was because of the number of injuries that we had.  If we hadn't of got those injuries he would've still been training with the u23's.  Considering he did so well he may very well be with the 1st team squad full time now but I think people need to keep their expectations in check. 

[Raid]

It's a shame for him we didn't win because he would have been a shoe in to play in the next round.

I think this weekend against Brighton is about as good a chance as he'll get to play more minutes. I don't think he will though.

And he shouldn't either. Brighton would throw a seasoned old pro like Glenn Murray on him and it could end up being a very difficult afternoon.

He looks a great talent and his time will come, but for now Fabinho or even Gini should fill the void next to VVD until one of the other three return.

[RedG13]

I really don't think they are fast tracking him.  Klopp himself said the only reason he was training with the first team was because of the number of injuries that we had.  If we hadn't of got those injuries he would've still been training with the u23's.  Considering he did so well he may very well be with the 1st team squad full time now but I think people need to keep their expectations in check.

That makes sense. Will have to wait and see.

[TepidT2O]

He’s so young he won’t be ready for the first team for three more years...


Keep that in mind

[redmark]

I really don't think they are fast tracking him.  Klopp himself said the only reason he was training with the first team was because of the number of injuries that we had.  If we hadn't of got those injuries he would've still been training with the u23's.  Considering he did so well he may very well be with the 1st team squad full time now but I think people need to keep their expectations in check. 

He's 16. He's been promoted - ahead of older players - from the U18s to U23s, and from the U23s to the seniors. Yes, the latter because of injury. But he's not the only defender in the youth system, and a long way from being the eldest or most experienced. He probably won't get much/any time with the seniors next season - but he is already being fast tracked within the setup below that.

[classycarra]

He’s so young he won’t be ready for the first team for three more years...


Keep that in mind

Depends what you mean by that, but recent history suggests it's untrue

[redmark]

He’s so young he won’t be ready for the first team for three more years...

By the summer of 2022, there'll be people lining him up for 3 years of loans at gradually bigger clubs following that until he's "ready".

[newterp]

He’s so young he won’t be ready for the first team for three more years...


Keep that in mind

yes - but by then he will almost be 20 yrs old - we need to sell now to maximize value says Everton.

[Djimi Smicer34]

He’s so young he won’t be ready for the first team for three more years...


Keep that in mind

How have you come to that conclusion?

[Redcap]

The fast tracking of youth players is almost wholly dependent on the physicality of the individual and the amount of games such individual shall play. I cannot see how he is a better option than either Matip or Lovren. Right now- he is not ready for league football despite his technical ability and maturity beyond his years. Training with the first team can only take you so far. There is no better teacher than the match itself. You can throw him on for 5-10 mins once a game is safe. (That would be ok if he was playing an U18/23 game once a week). That, however, in no way helps your 4th /5th choice CB  who may need time to maintain his sharpness which will be detrimental to the team in the event of injury. Being loaned out to experience a different type / style of football is good for development.
I do not believe that the club has let Woodburn down. He needs game time and was correctly loaned out.

As I said, I think next year would be the year he might be 5th choice. I don't think that would be an issue of 5th choice for Fabinho because Fabinho will be a mainstay in midfield.

I don't agree that being loaned out to play a different kind of football would necessarily be good for him, or anyone, if they don't actually value his skillset. I think players thrive when they have an environment that gives them the right development, in terms of challenging them, yes, but also in terms of actually valuing what they bring. For him, and for us, that means playing in a team that at minimum passes out from the back and has a reasonable amount of the ball. This is good on the one hand because that how we play anyway, and he should play for a team that approximates our style. But more importantly, if he plays for a team that defends in a deep block and is invites aerial bombardment for 80 minutes a game, clearly he wouldn't be well suited to that to begin with, and as a result wouldn't actually get game time.

This is why I think we could have done better by Woodburn. It's not that I think he would have been better off playing for the u23s than playing for Sheffield United. It's that he didn't play for Sheffield United, because clearly he didn't suit their style of play. I understand the argument that if he's good enough, he'll play more games. But that's never the whole story - players get the chances they get because a team sees what they have and are able to turn it into output. That's true at the world class player level (Salah), and it's even more true for younger players, because they need even more nurturing and development. 'Throwing them in the deep end' is good in theory, but it accepts the premise that player quality is linear across all environments and team playing styles, which I don't think is true. Of course, finding just the right club to develop a player the Liverpool way is hard, and may not always be possible. That's why I think it's a shame reserve teams don't get to play in lower leagues the way they do in Germany and Spain, where you get the best of both worlds.

This brings us back to Hoever. I honestly don't know enough about the Championship or lower leagues to appreciate how many teams would play a style that values and nurtures his strengths while giving him opportunities to improve on his weaknesses. He's got a fairly.. progressive style of football while not being particularly tall or strong, and that's profile likely to find a fit at the upper ends of the top leagues than in lower leagues. That's why when you compare the options, maybe spending more time under the direct tutelage of maybe our best CB in decades, who appears to be of a kind of defender while also being very sound of character, might be a better option.

[redmark]

I don't agree that being loaned out to play a different kind of football would necessarily be good for him, or anyone, if they don't actually value his skillset.

I usually save my annual whinge about loans for the summer window, but I agree with this completely. There's still no evidence to date (and I've been saying this since at least Andre Wisdom's first loan, however long ago that was) that we loan out players for development towards a career at Liverpool. There's lots of evidence that we loan out players to make sure they have a sale value. That's fine, as I do trust those at the club to identify the players who might/will make it, though occasionally seeing us loan out someone I had hopes for is disappointing.

I still harbour some hopes for Wilson and Woodburn (Klopp, unusually, seems more willing to blood young defenders than attackers, and Wilson certainly needed games), but not particularly strong hopes.

[mrantarctica]

Can't see why with us moving Clyne on, why this lad can't step up to being a bit of an understudy/emergency option at RB/CB.

The hierarchy would be:
TAA -> Gomez -> Hoever
VVD/Gomez -> Lovren -> Matip -> Hoever

That way he can train with the senior pros week in week out and see how they prepare for the big games, and can get every bit of wisdom from Klopp and the rest of the staff, and I would say in a busy season where we want to compete on 3 (or more) fronts, then he is more than likely to get the odd game as well to aid his development.

For instance, if we're playing a team in the relegation zone at home amidst a busy schedule, surely we could find a place for the lad on the bench and he could easily get a steady 5-15 minutes on the pitch if we are well ahead. While he might feature more in a tie against much lower opposition or for less meaningful games e.g. if we've already qualified from the group stage and we're still to play a game in the CL and we also happen to have important league games coming up, then it makes sense to rest the big names for an effectively dead rubber tie.

Im sure they do this already, but they should earmark potential games where he might be involved and then he could train with the first team but get steady appearances at U23, and when it comes time for those earmarked games then he has a rest from U23s to keep him fresh for the first team in case he can be used.

[Suareznumber7]

Two years ago, A lot of people thought Woodburn would be a member of the 1st team squad by now.  It’s great that we have a really talented 16 year old at the club but nobody knows how his development is going to continue.   

[Redcap]

Two years ago, A lot of people thought Woodburn would be a member of the 1st team squad by now.  It’s great that we have a really talented 16 year old at the club but nobody knows how his development is going to continue.   

Of course. That's how it is with every young player. I remember back in the day when it was Paul Anderson, or Adam Hamill. Remember those guys? Or Kristian Nemeth? And then more recently we had 'next colossus' Andre Wisdom, and 'midfield general' Ovie Ejaria. Even those we get in at a slightly more developed stage, like Grujic, aren't guaranteed to work out.

No club, not even Ajax or Barcelona, has a 100% hit rate with academy products. No one's saying Hoever is going to be the next Beckenbauer.

But it is useful (and fun) to think about how you would want to develop a special talent.

[redmark]

Of course. That's how it is with every young player. I remember back in the day when it was Paul Anderson, or Adam Hamill. Remember those guys? Or Kristian Nemeth? And then more recently we had 'next colossus' Andre Wisdom, and 'midfield general' Ovie Ejaria. Even those we get in at a slightly more developed stage, like Grujic, aren't guaranteed to work out.

Lauri Dalla Valle... 'the next Torres'. Trauma when Hodgson sent him (and Kacaniklic) to Fulham for Konchesky. Retired last summer, aged 26, not through injury but to focus on a career in photography, after 17 goals in 118 games for clubs like Crewe and Molde.

It's notable just how rarely the club really gets the trajectory of youngsters drastically wrong.

[blacksun]

Lauri Dalla Valle... 'the next Torres'. Trauma when Hodgson sent him (and Kacaniklic) to Fulham for Konchesky. Retired last summer, aged 26, not through injury but to focus on a career in photography, after 17 goals in 118 games for clubs like Crewe and Molde.

It's notable just how rarely the club really gets the trajectory of youngsters drastically wrong.

Was thinking about that recently, the only ones I can think of that have had decent careers in the top leagues are Mikel San Jose and Peter Gulacsi and neither of them would really have had much chance here if we'd kept them.

[vagabond]

Suso hasn't done too bad since moving on. I guess it depends at which age they were let go.

[Sangria]

Was thinking about that recently, the only ones I can think of that have had decent careers in the top leagues are Mikel San Jose and Peter Gulacsi and neither of them would really have had much chance here if we'd kept them.

Suso. Paletta was priced at 30m at one point, but for some reason went off the boil and was released.

[Crouch Potato]

One I remember is Alou Diarra, who was with us for 2 years, but I don't think he even made one first team appearance.

But he went on to play for France a number of times.

[blacksun]

Suso. Paletta was priced at 30m at one point, but for some reason went off the boil and was released.

Ahhhh Suso, how did I forget him.

Paletta I never really considered one of ours, if you like, we bought him from Boca? and then a year or 2 later he was gone so...

I guess Martin Kelly would argue hes done OK too

[Redcap]

I guess the key thing when it comes to loans is to try and find them a club that gets good use out of them and plays to their strengths, such that they either come back a better player or are worth a pretty penny to sell on.

Suso, Paletta and San Jose mentioned above all had good careers away from Liverpool. It would have been good if we had managed to actually get something out of them. We don't have that many hits from the academy as it is, so it's a shame to lose the players that do end up becoming good players.

It's notable just how rarely the club really gets the trajectory of youngsters drastically wrong.

I guess it's statistically improbable for a young player to make it, the likelihood of a false negative (in terms of assessment of them not making the grade) skews towards being low?

You could also include Luis Alberto in the bracket of young players that succeeded elsewhere, although he would have never worked out under Klopp anyway.

On the other side of the coin, you have the players that the club thought would do well and brought in for decent fees, who didn't amount to anything.

Examples include Lazar Markovic, Tiago Ilori. We seem to have been more reluctant to make these moves for the slightly below premium but still somewhat expensive young players in the last couple of years, though
.

[PhaseOfPlay]

These discussions always reminded me of something - well two things - an old coach said years ago that I've repeated a few times here, that I've found to be some of the biggest truisms of the game.

Firstly, there's a difference between "Talent" and "Ability". "Talent" is to be seen all over professional (and amateur) football. There are loads of talented players - players with skill, creativity, tricks, etc. Then there are players with "Ability" - they take what they have, no matter how much or how little, and put it at the service of the team, so that they become vital cogs and important players. Some players with low "talent" make great use of their "ability" and become star professionals. But on the other hand, some players with great "talent" make poor use of it, and never fulfill their promise. There's lots of "talented" Sunday league players. But the ones who make it to the top usually have "ability" - turning what they have into something managers want on the pitch every single game if possible.

Secondly, the other truism is that you can improve players, but you can't make them "good" - that comes from a combination of genetics, drive, environment, "talent" and "ability".

Hoever, from the small bit that we have seen, has a lot of "talent". He's a "good" player.

But whether he has the "ability" to make something more of himself than just an 80 minute footnote in Liverpool's history remains to be seen. The only question we need to ask is "Does he have the ability?". And we won't really know that until he's grown into his body and filled out his natural frame. When he does that, we'll have a better picture of what he can achieve.

[4pool]

Looking into the future is always a cloudy crystal ball.



Let Hoever be himself and see where it goes.

[Garnier]

Was thinking about that recently, the only ones I can think of that have had decent careers in the top leagues are Mikel San Jose and Peter Gulacsi and neither of them would really have had much chance here if we'd kept them.

Conor Coady, Captain of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club

[blacksun]

Conor Coady, Captain of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club

Fair shout, although to be fair he has reinvented himself as a CB now.

Yes I know he played there a bit in the U18's but he was primarily a CM and now hes a very solid CB.

With that in mind would anybody have him back here as a replacement for Lovren/Matip?

[mrantarctica]

Fair shout, although to be fair he has reinvented himself as a CB now.

Yes I know he played there a bit in the U18's but he was primarily a CM and now hes a very solid CB.

With that in mind would anybody have him back here as a replacement for Lovren/Matip?

Well its always hard to say. He went away and got games and has done well. Last season I was saying something along the lines of I thought Coady was better than Klavan and being a homegrown lad that could play a number of positions was probably better to keep around - however that would have been unpalatable to him as a young player these lads want games and want to be involved every week. An older player like Klavan probably knows that he's not going to get too many chances at a club that could win things and would probably be quite happy being a bit of a back up player earning a decent wage.

It's totally different with Hoever though. He's only 16/17. He's still very much in the developmental stages of his career. Moving on is not going to get him lots of games at a good level because a lot of other clubs aren't going to spend big on a 16y and take a chance on them as their starting CB. His best bet is to stick around at LFC and push for opportunities at RB or CB as a backup option. Both Matip and Lovren will be of lesser importance in the next 2-3 seasons is my opinion, and that is the perfect situation for him to develop from being the no.5 understudy to supplanting one or either of them as the no. 3 CB option.

[reddebs]

Conor Coady, Captain of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club

A pretty good example of POPs "talent or ability" explanation.

Conor was never the best or most talented but he applied himself to the job with the ability he had.



Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Robert_B]

Suso. Paletta was priced at 30m at one point, but for some reason went off the boil and was released.

If memory serves, the 30m tag was an OTT release fee figure rather than fair market value.

[L8Craig]

Two years ago, A lot of people thought Woodburn would be a member of the 1st team squad by now.  It’s great that we have a really talented 16 year old at the club but nobody knows how his development is going to continue.

The hype after seeing him in an awful game is crazy.
I’ve even seen some people suggest that he partners Van Dijk tomorrow.
Ridiculous.
Like Klopp said, he wouldn’t be in first team training if Matip and Gomez were fit.

[Chris~]

A pretty good example of POPs "talent or ability" explanation.

Conor was never the best or most talented but he applied himself to the job with the ability he had.



Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

He's also an example of luck, or outside factors playing a big part in your career. Before Nunes and the Chinese money came to Wolves he was a right back on a middling Championship team. He's always been someone with talent and the right work ethic but he still needed that lucky break.

[newterp]

He's also an example of luck, or outside factors playing a big part in your career. Before Nunes and the Chinese money came to Wolves he was a right back on a middling Championship team. He's always been someone with talent and the right work ethic but he still needed that lucky break.

Don't know if he would work in our high-ish line either (Coady) - he's not fast (not terribly slow either).

[nico 8]

These discussions always reminded me of something - well two things - an old coach said years ago that I've repeated a few times here, that I've found to be some of the biggest truisms of the game.

Firstly, there's a difference between "Talent" and "Ability". "Talent" is to be seen all over professional (and amateur) football. There are loads of talented players - players with skill, creativity, tricks, etc. Then there are players with "Ability" - they take what they have, no matter how much or how little, and put it at the service of the team, so that they become vital cogs and important players. Some players with low "talent" make great use of their "ability" and become star professionals. But on the other hand, some players with great "talent" make poor use of it, and never fulfill their promise. There's lots of "talented" Sunday league players. But the ones who make it to the top usually have "ability" - turning what they have into something managers want on the pitch every single game if possible.

Secondly, the other truism is that you can improve players, but you can't make them "good" - that comes from a combination of genetics, drive, environment, "talent" and "ability".

Hoever, from the small bit that we have seen, has a lot of "talent". He's a "good" player.

But whether he has the "ability" to make something more of himself than just an 80 minute footnote in Liverpool's history remains to be seen. The only question we need to ask is "Does he have the ability?". And we won't really know that until he's grown into his body and filled out his natural frame. When he does that, we'll have a better picture of what he can achieve.

Isn't "talent" a myth?
Of the two- Milner or Salah- has the greater "talent" or ability?

[nico 8]

Fair shout, although to be fair he has reinvented himself as a CB now.

Yes I know he played there a bit in the U18's but he was primarily a CM and now hes a very solid CB.

With that in mind would anybody have him back here as a replacement for Lovren/Matip?

Was John Terry not a striker in his youth? Dani Alves was also a striker when he first started out.

[nico 8]

A pretty good example of POPs "talent or ability" explanation.

Conor was never the best or most talented but he applied himself to the job with the ability he had.



Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Although there is truth in that statement, there are so many other factors eg:- late developer -physically, lack of opportunity because of position one plays in.

[Phil M]

A pretty good example of POPs "talent or ability" explanation.

Conor was never the best or most talented but he applied himself to the job with the ability he had.



Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

A bit like Martin Kelly who looked full of potential when he broke through.

[Djimi Smicer34]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/liverpools-90000-gem-story-behind-15659510

Good article by James Pearce on how we convinced Hoever to sign with us and his progress at the club so far.

And he only cost us £90k.