Topic: The 2019 Formula One Thread

[Darren G]

Does anyone actually really give a fuck?

We know what Vettel is.  We don’t know what Leclerc is yet.  That’s it.

 ..Which has nothing do with anything I wrote.  No need to be so pissy either.

 Anyhow...

 Not the most interesting race but a good win for Bottas.  I don't see him challenging Lewis across a whole season though.  To me it feels more reminiscent of Schumacher/Massa than anything.  Schumacher was obviously the better driver overall but there were a couple of tracks where Massa just seemed to absolutely nail it.  I hope that I'm wrong on that though, because without improvement from Ferrari it's hard to see anyone other than a Mercedes driver winning this year and one driver dominating is never great viewing.

[Welshred]

Hamilton hates Baku doesn't he? That was the significance of the 'survived Azaerbaijan for another year' message over his radio just after the race. Its probably why he doesn't do so well there.

[Qston]

Another solid race for McLaren. Great to see them slowly making their way back into the conversation.

[Darren G]

Another solid race for McLaren. Great to see them slowly making their way back into the conversation.

 It was.  Nice to see Norris having a decent start to his career too.  Seems a nice lad from what I've seen.

[clinical]

With the Ferrari. It’s interesting, because I think they can be pretty sure that engine power is higher in the Ferrari.


So that means that the chassis and aero must be better on the Merc. Now we looked at the different aero philosophies at the start of the season. Aero and chassis dominance of the Merc are things that are never discussed

The I wash and out wash philosophies and Merc picking in wash as it gave more aero and been more developable but that it would stall more easily and be a bitch to control. Given that Ferrari and RB went for our wash and that not one single other team had the Mercs low take, I find myself thinking that the idea that Mercedes dominance has been built on just a engine is a verisimilitude, and that reality is different.

So why have other teams not gone with a lower take and why are other teams not switching to an I wash front wing?

Add to that Ferrari being Ferrari. To big too bloated, poor decision making... it was ever thus.....

You know Mercs swapped to outwash since second week of Barcelona testing, right?

Unless I wash is totally different to in-wash?

[Qston]

It was.  Nice to see Norris having a decent start to his career too.  Seems a nice lad from what I've seen.

He does seem a decent lad. I saw him being interviewed before the australian GP I think and asking him about the track and not having driven it before (could have been china ?). Anyway, he said he has practiced it a lot in the simulator and had done something incredible like 2500 laps ! He has had a really solid start and had the measure of sainz until this weekend.

The car has improved a lot. It seems really stable in the corners - almost as if they have taken the same route as Red Bull in terms of design. I just hope the engine doesn`t let them down this season

[Qston]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48093928

The irony isn`t lost on me. How did he get his 4 titles again ?

[west_london_red]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48093928

The irony isn`t lost on me. How did he get his 4 titles again ?

Agree, but to be fair 1 if not 2 of his titles went down to the last race at least so from that point of view it was more entertaining and you had two teams fighting it out but that was pretty much down to Alonso carrying the Ferrari, and dare I say it but last years championship would have been a lot closer if Alonso was still at Ferrari.

[RacerX34]

With the Ferrari. It’s interesting, because I think they can be pretty sure that engine power is higher in the Ferrari.


So that means that the chassis and aero must be better on the Merc. Now we looked at the different aero philosophies at the start of the season. Aero and chassis dominance of the Merc are things that are never discussed

The I wash and out wash philosophies and Merc picking in wash as it gave more aero and been more developable but that it would stall more easily and be a bitch to control. Given that Ferrari and RB went for our wash and that not one single other team had the Mercs low take, I find myself thinking that the idea that Mercedes dominance has been built on just a engine is a verisimilitude, and that reality is different.

So why have other teams not gone with a lower take and why are other teams not switching to an I wash front wing?

Add to that Ferrari being Ferrari. To big too bloated, poor decision making... it was ever thus.....

Mercedes and Red Bull have out-wash front wings.
Ferrari, Alfa Romeo & STR have in-wash front wings.

The secret aero articles have been very good.
Especially pointing out that, since Newey has been at Red Bull,
losing 2nd in commands from Red Bull has probably formed the design philosophies for the teams poaching their staff.
Certainly at Ferrari and McLaren.

Issue for Ferrari seems to be that the concept has limited what they can do in terms of development,
although the updates looked like they were going to put it up to Mercedes until Leclerc put it in the wall.
Circuits like this, where it's aero compromised, are probably Ferrari's best shot at Mercedes.
Pity Ferrari seem to be carrying over their 2018 form of being their own worst enemy.

[clinical]

Mercedes and Red Bull have out-wash front wings.
Ferrari, Alfa Romeo & STR have in-wash front wings.

They don't. Not a single car right now has an in-wash front wing end-plates.

[RacerX34]

They don't. Not a single car right now has an in-wash front wing end-plates.

The entire front wings are either based around in-wash or out-wash.

[sminp]

The entire front wings are either based around in-wash or out-wash.

He’s not disagreeing with that, he’s saying all cars currently use an outwash front wing and no one is using inwash. He’s correct

[RacerX34]

He’s not disagreeing with that, he’s saying all cars currently use an outwash front wing and no one is using inwash. He’s correct

Maybe the phrasing i'm using is wrong.
All the endplates are outwash, but the wings are either outboard loaded or inboard loaded and so far it looks like Mercedes made the right call with outboard.

[TepidT2O]

Maybe the phrasing i'm using is wrong.
All the endplates are outwash, but the wings are either outboard loaded or inboard loaded and so far it looks like Mercedes made the right call with outboard.

I think you’re totally clear.

The trouble is that I forget which way round it goes

[Darren G]

Maybe the phrasing i'm using is wrong.
All the endplates are outwash, but the wings are either outboard loaded or inboard loaded and so far it looks like Mercedes made the right call with outboard.

 Mercedes wing is inboard loaded, not outboard.  Just not to the same extent as Ferrari in terms of plane angle.  Also, you can't have in-wash from an outboard loaded wing or vise versa.  Out-wash is the result of an outboard loaded wing, with the opposite equation for in-wash. 

[paulrazor]

I'm board

[paulrazor]

Senna and Ratzenberger 25 years gone

where does it go

[RacerX34]

Saudade

[voodoo ray]

25 years is fucking mental.

[Darren G]

25 years is fucking mental.

Feels like a lifetime ago...and like yesterday. 

Saudade

 Yes.  Absolutely the perfect word.

[Qston]

A nice piece from Andrew Benson on the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48093513

Time has flown by

[paulrazor]

there is that much footage and articles and stories on him its still hard to believe he isnt around

i do wonder how his career would have panned out. he would have won at least one title with Williams, if not 1994 then 1995

Ferrari or McLaren would have tried to get him in at some stage, he had such a passion for motorsport i could easily imagine he would have either had his own team or would have been doing what Ross Brawn does now

driving wise it would have been a rivalry to end all rivalries to see him against Schumacher in the mid 90s

[voodoo ray]

Feels like a lifetime ago...and like yesterday. 

 Yes.  Absolutely the perfect word.

2nd strangest thing I've ever seen on telly. For a few years it was #1.

Basically sitting on a sofa watching a bloke die live in a sporting event.

Oh and Murray was excellent on comms that day too.

[paulrazor]

2nd strangest thing I've ever seen on telly. For a few years it was #1.

Basically sitting on a sofa watching a bloke die live in a sporting event.

Oh and Murray was excellent on comms that day too.

i wasnt in to the sport for about another year but i had heard of senna

i was lying on the couch reading a paper when i heard walker saying senna was gone off

later on that night came the news he was dead

[voodoo ray]

As well as seeing it happen live, seeing the big green words 'Senna "clinically brain dead"' on ceefax in the evening was just as weird.

[west_london_red]

2nd strangest thing I've ever seen on telly. For a few years it was #1.

Basically sitting on a sofa watching a bloke die live in a sporting event.

Oh and Murray was excellent on comms that day too.

Pretty much the same for me, remember there being a slight twitch of his head after the car came to a stop thinking that was either a very good sign or a very bad sign...

Only surpassed by the 9/11 attacks as the surrealist thing I have seen on TV

[TepidT2O]

It was surreal for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, there hadn’t been a fatal accident for a long time in F1 (probably by luck to some extent).  The death of ratzenberger was a total shock.  But then it being another fatality and it being senna made it even more surreal.  Add to that the criticism  that Senna didn’t feel he could get hurt as god would protect him (was that Prost) and it made it more surreal still.

Secondly was the nature of the accident. A mistake by Senna?  Seemed impossible.  And the impact? It was hardly anything to note.  People walked out of those every single race weekend.. several times. 
That such a freak event caused his death added to it.

[voodoo ray]

Pretty much the same for me, remember there being a slight twitch of his head after the car came to a stop thinking that was either a very good sign or a very bad sign...

Only surpassed by the 9/11 attacks as the surrealist thing I have seen on TV

yeah that's what 'beat' it to be the #1

was reading something earlier which I forgot in that year was a bit of an odd one in F1 because senna was the only world champion in the field and the only real 'star' driver left. mansell had fucked off to the states (and won) and prost had quit.

it left a big void.

[west_london_red]

It was surreal for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, there hadn’t been a fatal accident for a long time in F1 (probably by luck to some extent).  The death of ratzenberger was a total shock.  But then it being another fatality and it being senna made it even more surreal.  Add to that the criticism  that Senna didn’t feel he could get hurt as god would protect him (was that Prost) and it made it more surreal still.

Secondly was the nature of the accident. A mistake by Senna?  Seemed impossible.  And the impact? It was hardly anything to note.  People walked out of those every single race weekend.. several times. 
That such a freak event caused his death added to it.

Well there was always the debate afterwards as to what caused the accident - there was a lot of talk about the steering column breaking before the accident, then there was the sparks coming from his car and whether it was running too low hitting the ground so couldn’t be steered or whether he made a mistake. It didn’t look like the worst accident but at the same time the run off area was quite small and the wall was pretty near the track so not much distance to break and if I remember correctly no tyre wall either?

[paulrazor]

No tyre wall. There had been some big crashes there in years prior. Alboreto had a bad one in a footwork Porsche. Piquet and Berger too and this with patrese https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OCcf_aTuldY

The warning signs were there

[TepidT2O]

No tyre wall. There had been some big crashes there in years prior. Alboreto had a bad one in a footwork Porsche. Piquet and Berger too and this with patrese https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OCcf_aTuldY

The warning signs were there

It was still a freak accident (Although an avoidable one)

For the wishbone to break and puncture his skull was tremendously unlucky.  More to do with the cars designs than that corner in particular.

[paulrazor]

The suspension issue was indeed a culmination of things that made it so unlucky and horrible

[CornerFlag]

It's one of the reasons why they still want to limit cornering speed though, isn't it?  With the aero being so strong in 2019 you're able to go quicker round them, one mistake and you could be done for in the wrong place.

[Darren G]

Well there was always the debate afterwards as to what caused the accident - there was a lot of talk about the steering column breaking before the accident, then there was the sparks coming from his car and whether it was running too low hitting the ground so couldn’t be steered or whether he made a mistake. It didn’t look like the worst accident but at the same time the run off area was quite small and the wall was pretty near the track so not much distance to break and if I remember correctly no tyre wall either?

 
 The car was actually sparking from lap one and though and was actually throwing up less sparks from the skid planes prior to the accident.  The 'too low' theory also doesn't account for the fact that despite Ayrton turning the steering wheel, the wheels didn't change direction at all.  The car's movement prior to the crash also seems inconsistent with that of a car losing control from bottoming out. 

I still hold with steering column failure as the cause of the accident. Let's not also forget that the steering in that car had also failed in for Coulthard in testing and that was before the dodgy welding job that even Head admits was poor engineering.  In the end it's all just speculation and we'll never know to a certainty, but that's very much my opinion.

 

[Funky_Gibbons]

Ferrari with an engine upgrade for the next race;

"We will have a new power unit that we are introducing ahead of schedule, as the second specification was due to be brought to Canada," team boss Mattia Binotto said as he confirmed the two-race jump.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12474/11713648/spanish-gp-ferrari-bringing-engine-upgrade-forward-to-fight-mercedes

[west_london_red]

 The car was actually sparking from lap one and though and was actually throwing up less sparks from the skid planes prior to the accident.  The 'too low' theory also doesn't account for the fact that despite Ayrton turning the steering wheel, the wheels didn't change direction at all.  The car's movement prior to the crash also seems inconsistent with that of a car losing control from bottoming out. 

I still hold with steering column failure as the cause of the accident. Let's not also forget that the steering in that car had also failed in for Coulthard in testing and that was before the dodgy welding job that even Head admits was poor engineering.  In the end it's all just speculation and we'll never know to a certainty, but that's very much my opinion.

 

The steering column was definitely the most likely cause, even the inquest called it out as it was welded together over that race weekend. As for the car being too low, was there not a safety car on the track just before the accident and debris on the track? Could have been a slow puncture or low tyre pressure caused by the lower temperature in the tyres? What I was really trying to say is that was unlikely to be cause by driver error.

[paulrazor]

The steering column was definitely the most likely cause, even the inquest called it out as it was welded together over that race weekend. As for the car being too low, was there not a safety car on the track just before the accident and debris on the track? Could have been a slow puncture or low tyre pressure caused by the lower temperature in the tyres? What I was really trying to say is that was unlikely to be cause by driver error.

there was a safety car for about 6 laps (Lehto stalled and was collected by Lamy)

Senna did a full lap before crashing. Think in evidence drivers like Michele Alboreto said they tyres would have been ok by that point.

[TepidT2O]

Ferrari with an engine upgrade for the next race;

"We will have a new power unit that we are introducing ahead of schedule, as the second specification was due to be brought to Canada," team boss Mattia Binotto said as he confirmed the two-race jump.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12474/11713648/spanish-gp-ferrari-bringing-engine-upgrade-forward-to-fight-mercedes

17 races on two engines though..


Asking a lot of them

[west_london_red]

17 races on two engines though..


Asking a lot of them

They can always go back to an older lower spec engine on less engine demanding circuits like Monaco and Singapore? But more importantly they need to do something before Mercedes are too far ahead if they ain’t already but in all honesty Ferrari’s problem isn’t the engine, if anything it’s probably the cars strongest area.

[TepidT2O]

Oh no.

The Brazilian Grand Prix is moving to Rio.

Another great circuit lost for no reason.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48212783