Author Topic: The 2019 Formula One Thread (Read 142266 times)

b_joseph · « **Reply #800 on:** April 27, 2019, 04:51:43 pm »

Quote from: Upinsmoke on April 27, 2019, 04:05:55 pm

They aren't over promising, its everyone else saying they are super fast, nailed on pole etc. Everyone is over estimating how fast they are. Practice is just that. When it matters they've been slower 3 times out of 4.

When in interviews...they arent talking like a team expecting to finish second. leclerc himself, said he could have had pole today.
The telemetry of their power on the straights is sound. The red bull guys have no reason to build up Ferrari and even they expected better than this.

They have been a major letdown. They had pole here last season...easily on pole.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #801 on:** April 27, 2019, 04:56:01 pm »

That Kuba crash was 21g the Leclerc one 12 g.

Quite a big impact on the Williams.

Upinsmoke · « **Reply #802 on:** April 27, 2019, 05:31:31 pm »

Quote from: b_joseph on April 27, 2019, 04:51:43 pm

When in interviews...they arent talking like a team expecting to finish second. leclerc himself, said he could have had pole today.
The telemetry of their power on the straights is sound. The red bull guys have no reason to build up Ferrari and even they expected better than this.

They have been a major letdown. They had pole here last season...easily on pole.

When you drive for the most famous f1 team you dont exactly play down your chances. They have a car capable of challenging, that doesn't equate to being the fastest car though. If F1 was a drag race you could make an argument for Ferrari being the fastest but theres like 20 corners as well which nobody seems to be accounting for every weekend. As I said during pre season and this season, practice and pre season mean nothing, its only in qualifying and the race where it matters. Its baffling to declare one car undoubtedly quicker when they've been slower 3 times out of 4 in a competitive environment. Its like declaring a football team the best about because they have had the best pre season and look sharp in training.

west_london_red · « **Reply #803 on:** April 27, 2019, 06:07:50 pm »

As one sided as the season is right now, what is entertaining is watching Ferrari find different ways to cock it up or sabotage themselves every race. They are leaving themselves a mountain to climb at this race and for the season and with one accident prone driver and one inexperienced driver they really can’t afford the headstart they are giving Mercedes.

Funky_Gibbons · « **Reply #804 on:** April 27, 2019, 06:13:24 pm »

Quote from: west_london_red on April 27, 2019, 06:07:50 pm

As one sided as the season is right now, what is entertaining is watching Ferrari find different ways to cock it up or sabotage themselves every race. They are leaving themselves a mountain to climb at this race and for the season and with one accident prone driver and one inexperienced driver they really can’t afford the headstart they are giving Mercedes.

I thought they were arrogant in this qualifying session. It was pretty clear everyone was having trouble getting their tyres up to temperature but they thought they had enough performance in the bag to send their drivers out on the harder, which take longer to get up to temperature, in Q2.

I think that contributed to Leclerc crashing, but also made Q3 late in the day and track temperature were much lower.

b_joseph · « **Reply #805 on:** April 27, 2019, 06:28:07 pm »

Quote from: Upinsmoke on April 27, 2019, 05:31:31 pm

When you drive for the most famous f1 team you dont exactly play down your chances. They have a car capable of challenging, that doesn't equate to being the fastest car though. If F1 was a drag race you could make an argument for Ferrari being the fastest but theres like 20 corners as well which nobody seems to be accounting for every weekend. As I said during pre season and this season, practice and pre season mean nothing, its only in qualifying and the race where it matters. Its baffling to declare one car undoubtedly quicker when they've been slower 3 times out of 4 in a competitive environment. Its like declaring a football team the best about because they have had the best pre season and look sharp in training.

But they used to play down their chances. Its not like they were talking about being a challenge to Merc in 2016...they knew their place.
Last year, they knew they had a car to compete and this year they thought that was an even stronger reality.

Now, that, so far, is being proven to be false. But I dont think they were lying or being delusional....Bahrain exists. The pace from Bahrain is somewhere in that car but they cant seem to unlock it.

The funny thing, is that Mercedes used to be the car that struggled in cornering and saved itself in raw speed. That has turned on its head but Mercedes still has great raw speed.
What this team has been able to achieve is fascinating. Turning weaknesses into strengths without losing what made them strong to begin with.

RedSince86 · « **Reply #806 on:** April 27, 2019, 06:29:31 pm »

Quote from: Funky_Gibbons on April 27, 2019, 03:43:47 pm

Not yet.

Lol i didn't realise that was Q2.

I switched over really quick, i thought i'd just caught the end of the qualy.

Funky_Gibbons · « **Reply #807 on:** April 27, 2019, 06:31:10 pm »

Quote from: RedSince86 on April 27, 2019, 06:29:31 pm

Lol i didn't realise that was Q2.

I switched over really quick, i thought i'd just caught the end of the qualy.

You can catch it on C4 now.

west_london_red · « **Reply #808 on:** April 27, 2019, 06:38:56 pm »

Quote from: Funky_Gibbons on April 27, 2019, 06:13:24 pm

I thought they were arrogant in this qualifying session. It was pretty clear everyone was having trouble getting their tyres up to temperature but they thought they had enough performance in the bag to send their drivers out on the harder, which take longer to get up to temperature, in Q2.

I think that contributed to Leclerc crashing, but also made Q3 late in the day and track temperature were much lower.

I wouldn’t call that arrogance because we don’t know what tyre strategy works out quickest and it might well be to start on the mediums, plus this track has so many safety cars usually that going long might work out better? It was probably a mistake because as you suggest if Leclerc is on the softs that crash is much less likely.

Darren G · « **Reply #809 on:** April 28, 2019, 05:41:36 am »

That crash had fuck all to do with tyre compounds. He simply took way too much pace into the corner and badly locked the front left as a result. The result would have been the same in that situation regardless of compound. I like Charles and it's not the end of the world, but I can't help think that Seb would be getting slaughtered on here had he made the same mistake rather than excuses being made for him.

In terms of the Ferrari, it's merits and it's performance relative to Mercedes I agree wholeheartedly with Upinsmoke and was saying the same things during testing. Something of a false narrative was created in the media and elsewhere where the car was going to come into the season like the f2002 or something, but the empirical evidence to support that was never there.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #810 on:** April 28, 2019, 08:20:58 am »

With the Ferrari. It’s interesting, because I think they can be pretty sure that engine power is higher in the Ferrari.

So that means that the chassis and aero must be better on the Merc. Now we looked at the different aero philosophies at the start of the season. Aero and chassis dominance of the Merc are things that are never discussed

The I wash and out wash philosophies and Merc picking in wash as it gave more aero and been more developable but that it would stall more easily and be a bitch to control. Given that Ferrari and RB went for our wash and that not one single other team had the Mercs low take, I find myself thinking that the idea that Mercedes dominance has been built on just a engine is a verisimilitude, and that reality is different.

So why have other teams not gone with a lower take and why are other teams not switching to an I wash front wing?

Add to that Ferrari being Ferrari. To big too bloated, poor decision making... it was ever thus.....

west_london_red · « **Reply #811 on:** April 28, 2019, 09:27:09 am »

Quote from: Darren G on April 28, 2019, 05:41:36 am

That crash had fuck all to do with tyre compounds. He simply took way too much pace into the corner and badly locked the front left as a result. The result would have been the same in that situation regardless of compound. I like Charles and it's not the end of the world, but I can't help think that Seb would be getting slaughtered on here had he made the same mistake rather than excuses being made for him.

In terms of the Ferrari, it's merits and it's performance relative to Mercedes I agree wholeheartedly with Upinsmoke and was saying the same things during testing. Something of a false narrative was created in the media and elsewhere where the car was going to come into the season like the f2002 or something, but the empirical evidence to support that was never there.

Your right, Vettel would have got slaughtered if he’d done what Leclerc did yesterday. The difference is of course Vettel is a 4 time world champion, competed in 200+ GPs and makes mistakes far too regularly compared to someone whose only 4 races into his second season, his first with his current team and so far has been pretty impeccable for someone of his age and experience.

west_london_red · « **Reply #812 on:** April 28, 2019, 09:34:32 am »

Quote from: Tepid T₂O on April 28, 2019, 08:20:58 am

With the Ferrari. It’s interesting, because I think they can be pretty sure that engine power is higher in the Ferrari.

So that means that the chassis and aero must be better on the Merc. Now we looked at the different aero philosophies at the start of the season. Aero and chassis dominance of the Merc are things that are never discussed

The I wash and out wash philosophies and Merc picking in wash as it gave more aero and been more developable but that it would stall more easily and be a bitch to control. Given that Ferrari and RB went for our wash and that not one single other team had the Mercs low take, I find myself thinking that the idea that Mercedes dominance has been built on just a engine is a verisimilitude, and that reality is different.

So why have other teams not gone with a lower take and why are other teams not switching to an I wash front wing?

Add to that Ferrari being Ferrari. To big too bloated, poor decision making... it was ever thus.....

I take it you read this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47838557

Welshred · « **Reply #813 on:** April 28, 2019, 09:51:39 am »

Quote from: west_london_red on April 28, 2019, 09:27:09 am

Your right, Vettel would have got slaughtered if he’d done what Leclerc did yesterday. The difference is of course Vettel is a 4 time world champion, competed in 200+ GPs and makes mistakes far too regularly compared to someone whose only 4 races into his second season, his first with his current team and so far has been pretty impeccable for someone of his age and experience.

It's the same in all sports. You'd expect that experienced pro and champion to make less mistakes than the young rookie still learning his trade so the youngsters get away with things that elders wouldn't.

Darren G · « **Reply #814 on:** April 28, 2019, 10:30:44 am »

Quote from: west_london_red on April 28, 2019, 09:27:09 am

Your right, Vettel would have got slaughtered if he’d done what Leclerc did yesterday. The difference is of course Vettel is a 4 time world champion, competed in 200+ GPs and makes mistakes far too regularly compared to someone whose only 4 races into his second season, his first with his current team and so far has been pretty impeccable for someone of his age and experience.

You're missing the point. The issue is not about people giving Charles more leeway - which is fair enough given the two drivers relative experience - or the regularity that Vettel has made mistakes, but rather that an entirely different logic appears to be applied to a given situation depending upon which driver was involved, rather than looking at the incident itself in an objective, impartial manner. Had Seb done the exact same thing (gone in too hard, locked-up AND got the line wrong) there'd be no talk on here of tyre compounds being a factor or other such bullshit excuses. That's got nothing to do with the relative experience of the two drives being taken into account and more to do with people's personal agendas.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #815 on:** April 28, 2019, 10:46:05 am »

Quote from: west_london_red on April 28, 2019, 09:34:32 am

I take it you read this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47838557

Yes, and commented on it on the previous page....!

TepidT2O · « **Reply #816 on:** April 28, 2019, 10:46:56 am »

Quote from: Darren G on April 28, 2019, 10:30:44 am

You're missing the point. The issue is not about people giving Charles more leeway - which is fair enough given the two drivers relative experience - or the regularity that Vettel has made mistakes, but rather that an entirely different logic appears to be applied to a given situation depending upon which driver was involved, rather than looking at the incident itself in an objective, impartial manner. Had Seb done the exact same thing (gone in too hard, locked-up AND got the line wrong) there'd be no talk on here of tyre compounds being a factor or other such bullshit excuses. That's got nothing to do with the relative experience of the two drives being taken into account and more to do with people's personal agendas.

Does anyone actually really give a fuck?

We know what Vettel is. We don’t know what Leclerc is yet. That’s it.

paulrazor · « **Reply #817 on:** April 28, 2019, 10:50:19 am »

Leclerc pretty much admitted it was his fault

west_london_red · « **Reply #818 on:** April 28, 2019, 11:01:40 am »

Quote from: Tepid T₂O on April 28, 2019, 10:46:05 am

Yes, and commented on it on the previous page....!

In 2014 and 2015 the gap Mercedes had was probably due to the engine, but over time I think the gap has decreased in that area and Ferrari may well have overtaken now. But based on history Ferrari have never had the best aero packages, when they have been dominant it was never really put down to Ferrari’s aerodynamics. But I wouldn’t assume that Mercedes have the best aero package either, maybe I am making a lazy assumption but as the article suggests RB have the best aero package because it’s an Adrian Newey car, but the engine is lagging behind the Mercedes by a bigger gap then the aero advantage RB have?

The other thing that doesn’t get talked about so much these days is mechanical grip, it’s harder to measure because it’s harder to see but I wouldn’t underestimate that either as a factor.

voodoo ray · « **Reply #819 on:** April 28, 2019, 11:08:13 am »

this is really good.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11702496/development-corner-ted-kravitz-james-allison-examine-the-2019-mercedes

the fact that merc lost 2.5 seconds with the change of regs is a bit of an eye-opener. also like the use of "aero porn"

gazzalfc · « **Reply #820 on:** April 28, 2019, 01:24:45 pm »

Very good and clean start. No safety car but lots of wheel to wheel.

Le Clerc was allowed to change his tyres as he crashed with the ones he set his fastest time in Q2. So he is on the slower set of tyres (though I think they are a used set)

And he's now up to 5th

voodoo ray · « **Reply #821 on:** April 28, 2019, 01:32:38 pm »

Leclerc for a podium

Graeme · « **Reply #822 on:** April 28, 2019, 01:45:52 pm »

Yep I hope so.

Crofty there musing over whether they should bring Leclerc in now on lap 18 or leave him out. Yeah cos a set of softs will do 34 laps.

b_joseph · « **Reply #823 on:** April 28, 2019, 01:48:30 pm »

When F1 is like this, you can understand why people become frsutrated with it.. nobody close to anyone...midfield a mile behind top three. Red Bull nowhere near top two...maybe ferrari not near Mercedes.

voodoo ray · « **Reply #824 on:** April 28, 2019, 02:14:32 pm »

leclerc not for a podium.

voodoo ray · « **Reply #825 on:** April 28, 2019, 02:38:22 pm »

mclaren and racing point have quietly had good races.

b_joseph · « **Reply #826 on:** April 28, 2019, 02:55:12 pm »

Gasly was so close to creating an SC...instead, VSC. If Ferrari arent up to snuff in Barcelona, then we might as well call it a season

El Lobo · « **Reply #827 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:00:08 pm »

Very impressive this from Mercedes with the 4th fastest car.

Upinsmoke · « **Reply #828 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:21:28 pm »

Pirelli can fuck off and so can Ross Brawn.

That was terrible for over taking, bar Leclerc in the opening laps. Usually you can pass down into turn 2 or 3 also, or at least have a go. Couldn't hardly do that today.

Well done to bottas and Hamilton for having a go late on. They both set the fastest laps on lap 49 I think it was, that's crazy on tyres 30 odd laps old, even taking into account lower fuel. I mean how crazy slow do they have to be going in order to preserve there tyres. That should be the time when there isn't anything left in them but because they degrade too quickly when you do push them every team has to drive to a delta.

Does my head in.

voodoo ray · « **Reply #829 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:22:34 pm »

^ directing your anger in the wrong places there.

Upinsmoke · « **Reply #830 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:26:10 pm »

Quote from: voodoo ray on April 28, 2019, 03:22:34 pm

^ directing your anger in the wrong places there.

No I'm not, I'd hardly say I'm angry. (I just said it does my head in) Just frustrated there is hardly any racing regardless of who's actually doing it.

Graeme · « **Reply #831 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:28:56 pm »

To be fair to Ross Brawn, they’re trying to do what they can. They can’t be sure exactly how aero changes affect the cars until they start racing.

Would you rather go back to Ecclestone who’ll just do whatever the highest bidder wants for every sporting matter?

voodoo ray · « **Reply #832 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:39:44 pm »

Quote from: Upinsmoke on April 28, 2019, 03:26:10 pm

No I'm not, I'd hardly say I'm angry. (I just said it does my head in) Just frustrated there is hardly any racing regardless of who's actually doing it.

let's not pick on semantics as it's not worth it. though if you tell people to fuck off, it sounds like you're kinda angry at them.

unless there's a major regulation change which only ever happen years in advance, it's not changing. but at least they made an effort this year to try and do something.

b_joseph · « **Reply #833 on:** April 28, 2019, 03:46:55 pm »

At this point, mandatory two stoppers and the ability to start on any tyre you want. Would be better than what we currently have

RedSince86 · « **Reply #834 on:** April 28, 2019, 04:20:20 pm »

I think the overall aim of Liberty is to have it like Nascar, where you have multiple winners in a season, i just cannot see it happening because of the politics, but it's nice of them try and revolutionize the sport unlike Bernie who Kowtowed to the big teams to keep the status quo.

Sadly None of the other big guns like Audi,BMW, Toyota or Porsche look to be joining F1 in 2021, maybe turned off by uncertainty and also the meddling of Mercedes and Ferrari who are against it and using their pull to halt it.

Only thing to look forward to engine wise is Mclaren for 2021 from an article i read last year with quotes about it by Zac Brown ,they were in discussions with BMW M division for technical help in building their own engine, and would likely also supply engines to other teams, (Williams and Force India) being the teams mentioned.

west_london_red · « **Reply #835 on:** April 28, 2019, 07:16:00 pm »

Quote from: Eel Lobo on April 28, 2019, 03:00:08 pm

Very impressive this from Mercedes with the 4th fastest car.

Ok, I’ll bite. 4th fastest car?

El Lobo · « **Reply #836 on:** April 28, 2019, 07:19:41 pm »

Quote from: west_london_red on April 28, 2019, 07:16:00 pm

Ok, I’ll bite. 4th fastest car?

Never bite!

Was just a piss take

Seems pretty clear now it’s the fastest car, purely for how poor Ferrari are at actually getting the potential from the car.

Funky_Gibbons · « **Reply #837 on:** April 28, 2019, 08:17:20 pm »

After Hamilton said he was too friendly to Bottas at the first corner, it’ll be interesting to see whether the Mercedes drivers get a bit more punchy now.

El Lobo · « **Reply #838 on:** April 28, 2019, 08:27:09 pm »

Quote from: Funky_Gibbons on April 28, 2019, 08:17:20 pm

After Hamilton said he was too friendly to Bottas at the first corner, it’ll be interesting to see whether the Mercedes drivers get a bit more punchy now.

Doubt it. They’ll keep getting 1-2s until they’re far clear and then Lewis will start getting preferential treatment, much to everyone’s chagrin

west_london_red · « **Reply #839 on:** April 28, 2019, 09:16:34 pm »

Quote from: RedSince86 on April 28, 2019, 04:20:20 pm

I think the overall aim of Liberty is to have it like Nascar, where you have multiple winners in a season, i just cannot see it happening because of the politics, but it's nice of them try and revolutionize the sport unlike Bernie who Kowtowed to the big teams to keep the status quo.

Sadly None of the other big guns like Audi,BMW, Toyota or Porsche look to be joining F1 in 2021, maybe turned off by uncertainty and also the meddling of Mercedes and Ferrari who are against it and using their pull to halt it.

Only thing to look forward to engine wise is Mclaren for 2021 from an article i read last year with quotes about it by Zac Brown ,they were in discussions with BMW M division for technical help in building their own engine, and would likely also supply engines to other teams, (Williams and Force India) being the teams mentioned.

The problem is Liberty Media can only do so much. In the short term if Ferrari sorted their shit out it would make the championship a lot more interesting to watch firstly. Longer term the duopoly that Mercedes and Ferrari have set up really needs to be broken one way or another because it will eventually kill the sport, it’s hard enough for us relatively committed fans to keep justifying paying to watch F1, but it’s no where near entertaining enough to make it attractive to new fans to lay to watch.