Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 855802 times)

Offline Andy @ Allerton

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 59,808
  • “That is not dead which can eternal lie..."
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28280 on: September 11, 2019, 10:52:03 PM »
I'm basing it on leavers I come across though, people like my cousin and all his stupid mates, thick c*nts like my Dad and the 11 or 12 HGV drivers I was on an EU invented pointless and expensive Driver CPC course with last weekend, plus every other lorry driver I come across. Too many people, such as Class 1 drivers saw foreign workers have a negative impact on their wages, then add in the £500 we have to pay to keep our CPC cards to allow us to continue to drive and their is a very blinkered view on the EU.

Hope they are looking forward to sitting in their cabs for 2 and a half days each way
1st Law : A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2nd Law : A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3rd Law : A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the other 2 laws

Offline PaulF

  • -.-- -. .-- .-
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,202
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28281 on: September 11, 2019, 10:55:10 PM »
I am no monarchist but how exactly ? What is she supposed to do ? She is advised by her PM on what to do and it is practice that she accepts that advice. All that has happened is it transpires that the Queen was lied to. I am not sure what else she is supposed to do other than doing some ninja shit on Johnson or ordering one of the guards to shoot him because he was unkempt
Don't even bother making it look like an accident Bond.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,255
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28282 on: September 11, 2019, 11:04:01 PM »
I'm basing it on leavers I come across though, people like my cousin and all his stupid mates, thick c*nts like my Dad and the 11 or 12 HGV drivers I was on an EU invented pointless and expensive Driver CPC course with last weekend, plus every other lorry driver I come across. Too many people, such as Class 1 drivers saw foreign workers have a negative impact on their wages, then add in the £500 we have to pay to keep our CPC cards to allow us to continue to drive and their is a very blinkered view on the EU.
Have any of the drivers even talked about EU Permits Rob.
It hardly gets mentioned now and it's a massive concern for Road Haulage and the country.
Only 5% of UK trucks who now enter the EU will be allowed into the EU after Brexit.
We have heard from countries like Turkey who have a CU and they tell us they get nowhere near the actually amount of Permits they want,  the Permits are only valid for 1 truck and run for months,they are all snapped up as soon as they are issued.

Offline Sons of pioneerS

  • are hungry men.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,601
  • Fuck The Tories.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28283 on: September 11, 2019, 11:05:06 PM »
And central to the whole problem with Brexit is that despite confirmation from the government itself, Brexiteers will not change their stance. You could tell them that the country will explode if we leave the European Union and they'll stick their fingers in their ears and say "the country voted to leave". They don't fucking listen. They're deluded and they think it will be worth it because we will have blue passports and wonky bananas. Three years on and I still haven't heard a plausible non-racist reason that the average person would want to leave the EU.

I'm seeing this too. So many people seem to be willing to see the country crash and burn just so they get their Brexit. They just don't seem to care about the consequences at all, just so long as they get their way. What I have always found really weird is Brexiteers have never actually known what they were voting for. When the ballot took place there was a choice between what we already knew (the EU) and something we actually had no idea about. Even now, three years on, there is still squabbling about what 'out' actually entails. Maybe any deal should have been thrashed out beforehand then a vote on it afterwards. Otherwise, how on earth do you know what you are voting for or against?
All I ever hear from people who voted Leave is the 'immigrants and £350m per day to the NHS' mantra/lie. It just seems to come down to ''getting our country back' race, immigration and Nationalism. Basically, it's based in ignorance and prejudice. It can't be much else, because no one on the street seems to even know what the withdrawal deal on the table even involves or means. They certainly didn't vote for it because it wasn't even on the table three years ago.

From what I'm seeing, you are definitely right. If you told them the UK would cease to exist after leaving the EU they'd just say that at least it was ours when it went under. They either don't understand or don't care about the fall-out so long as they get their way, which is even the more crazy when we consider they didn't even know what Brexit would entail when they voted for it because no Brexit deal was even on the table to vote on. All that was voted on was the idea of Brexit, not the reality of it. There is no excuse now though, but far too many people seem hell-bent on putting their hands in the fire even after being informed that it's extremely hot and will most definitely hurt.

We've Seen Things You People Wouldn't Believe...
    *         *         *         *          *           *
Rome. London. Paris. Rome. Istanbul. Madrid.

COUPE DES CLUBS CHAMPIONS EUROPÉENS VAINQUERS SIX FOIS.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,982
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28284 on: September 11, 2019, 11:18:31 PM »
Why the fuck is grace blakely on newsnight??

Offline a treeless whopper

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,839
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28285 on: September 11, 2019, 11:23:08 PM »
Why the fuck is grace blakely on newsnight??

Because she is a publicity whore who loves the sound of her own stuck up voice? I would seriously punch that knob right in her face.

Also Matthew Goodwin should drop the impartiality act right now. Everytime he is on he is blaming Remainers and giving Leavers a free ride.

Who knew that a Tory that wrote for the Times had the most accurate analysis.

Offline PaulF

  • -.-- -. .-- .-
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,202
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28286 on: September 11, 2019, 11:29:18 PM »
I'm seeing this too. So many people seem to be willing to see the country crash and burn just so they get their Brexit. They just don't seem to care about the consequences at all, just so long as they get their way. What I have always found really weird is Brexiteers have never actually known what they were voting for. When the ballot took place there was a choice between what we already knew (the EU) and something we actually had no idea about. Even now, three years on, there is still squabbling about what 'out' actually entails. Maybe any deal should have been thrashed out beforehand then a vote on it afterwards. Otherwise, how on earth do you know what you are voting for or against?
All I ever hear from people who voted Leave is the 'immigrants and £350m per day to the NHS' mantra/lie. It just seems to come down to ''getting our country back' race, immigration and Nationalism. Basically, it's based in ignorance and prejudice. It can't be much else, because no one on the street seems to even know what the withdrawal deal on the table even involves or means. They certainly didn't vote for it because it wasn't even on the table three years ago.

From what I'm seeing, you are definitely right. If you told them the UK would cease to exist after leaving the EU they'd just say that at least it was ours when it went under. They either don't understand or don't care about the fall-out so long as they get their way, which is even the more crazy when we consider they didn't even know what Brexit would entail when they voted for it because no Brexit deal was even on the table to vote on. All that was voted on was the idea of Brexit, not the reality of it. There is no excuse now though, but far too many people seem hell-bent on putting their hands in the fire even after being informed that it's extremely hot and will most definitely hurt.



I think there has been analysis showing a lot of leave voters feel that things can't get worse for them. We've had austerity for god knows how long while the bankers still pick up stupefying bonuses. They've been whipped into a vote for change ( see also the BBC article why George Soros is being treated as public enemy number one). There's a belief that even if things do get worse then the ruling classes will suffer more.  I'm not sure racism is a main driver as much as xenophobia. Frottage and his followers got brexiteers to win the referendum coming from being a 100/1 shot. I don't think people are ready to let go of that for benefits they can't see. Or for the promises that project fear concoct. And for many they don't feel the downsides affect them. Queues at ports, so what? Lack of skilled labour, doesn't affect me. Even I personally find it hard to believe that essential medicines won't get through.  I forsee there being difficulty with food but not a huge shock. I guess we have had it cushy for a long time and there hasn't been a real disaster to show how much things could get fucked up. To my poor memory, the real events have been that failure of two power generators. Foot and mouth disease, the volcano cancelling flights. Maybe the beast from the east. All of which were problematic, but dealt with reasonably comfortably. The expectation is we do so again. From the remain point of view, even if the disruption were guaranteed to be minimal there seems to be no reason to do it.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline a treeless whopper

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,839
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28287 on: September 11, 2019, 11:30:38 PM »
(Semi-)serious question: what is/was your Gran like? I don't propose to attempt psychoanalyse you, but FFS. Is it just old people you hate, or is it everyone?

One gran is french and lives in the south of France. She thinks England and the English are mental.

The other gran wanted to vote Leave but said she voted Remain because we were all passionate about it. I dont believe her.

Offline PaulF

  • -.-- -. .-- .-
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,202
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28288 on: September 11, 2019, 11:37:47 PM »
One gran is french and lives in the south of France. She thinks England and the English are mental.

The other gran wanted to vote Leave but said she voted Remain because we were all passionate about it. I dont believe her.
You know you have just bought yourself as custom title pointing out you are part French right?
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,255
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28289 on: September 11, 2019, 11:43:48 PM »
Yeah leave voters fell for a lot of bulls,, and it wasn't actually about leaving the EU they told us, it was about feeling neglected by our politicians, how are politicians have ignored them and left these areas to stagnate.many were told they have nothing to loose so why not vote Brexit, things can't get worse after all, who made these arguments,?  the RIGHT WING TOLD THEM.the dickeheads fell for it hook line and sinker, even now they argue stop calling us stupid, we know what we voted for, we voted to leave the EU.
They have argued they are being ignored by our politicians and they took their anger out on the only people who have tried to improve their lives, The EU, subsidies for all the deprived areas of the UK.
Don't call them stupid though.

Offline PaulF

  • -.-- -. .-- .-
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,202
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28290 on: September 11, 2019, 11:45:53 PM »
Yeah leave voters fell for a lot of bulls,, and it wasn't actually about leaving the EU they told us, it was about feeling neglected by our politicians, how are politicians have ignored them and left these areas to stagnate.many were told they have nothing to loose so why not vote Brexit, things can't get worse after all, who made these arguments,?  the RIGHT WING TOLD THEM.the dickeheads fell for it hook line and sinker, even now they argue stop calling us stupid, we know what we voted for, we voted to leave the EU.
They have argued they are being ignored by our politicians and they took their anger out on the only people who have tried to improve their lives, The EU, subsidies for all the deprived areas of the UK.
Don't call them stupid though.
If remain are to win at the ballot box, they have to learn to not try to argue with idiots.

--edit-- fwiw I think getting some famous, trusted names wheeled out saying vote remain is important. Maybe hosts of strictly or bake off.  The managers of some football clubs. Alan sugars or Bransons ( though I think sugar may be a leave voter, not sure). Anyone from downtown abbey !
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 11:49:05 PM by PaulF »
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Robinred

  • Wanted for burglary.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,672
  • Red since '64
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28291 on: September 11, 2019, 11:47:29 PM »
I think there has been analysis showing a lot of leave voters feel that things can't get worse for them. We've had austerity for god knows how long while the bankers still pick up stupefying bonuses. They've been whipped into a vote for change ( see also the BBC article why George Soros is being treated as public enemy number one). There's a belief that even if things do get worse then the ruling classes will suffer more.  I'm not sure racism is a main driver as much as xenophobia. Frottage and his followers got brexiteers to win the referendum coming from being a 100/1 shot. I don't think people are ready to let go of that for benefits they can't see. Or for the promises that project fear concoct. And for many they don't feel the downsides affect them. Queues at ports, so what? Lack of skilled labour, doesn't affect me. Even I personally find it hard to believe that essential medicines won't get through.  I forsee there being difficulty with food but not a huge shock. I guess we have had it cushy for a long time and there hasn't been a real disaster to show how much things could get fucked up. To my poor memory, the real events have been that failure of two power generators. Foot and mouth disease, the volcano cancelling flights. Maybe the beast from the east. All of which were problematic, but dealt with reasonably comfortably. The expectation is we do so again. From the remain point of view, even if the disruption were guaranteed to be minimal there seems to be no reason to do it.

I suspect a large number of Leave voters have taken the view, “I rarely if ever vote. And when I do, my vote is ignored - for three years!”  So when Johnson comes along telling them they’ve been robbed, they lap it up.
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Offline RF

  • Are we there yet?... is it open?... where are we?... what's that?...it's a lazy twat! Is my card marked?.. Yes it is?
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28292 on: September 11, 2019, 11:49:36 PM »
I'm going to go against the grain a bit here and say that Labour are probably doing the right thing here in going for a choice between a deal or remain, rather than just putting their hat on remain.

Don't worry, there will be enough young voters and northern tits like me who voted to leave, but have been educated and have long since seen sense.

Some will however still want to be given the choice. People don't like to be dictated to and want to make their own minds up.

They say an election will be decided in the northern heartlands. Working class people don't easily forget Thatcher and now they are being faced with a lying far right tory government again.  In fact this one is worse. i don't think Labour will necessary win an election outright, but do think they will do a lot better than is predicted in the polls.

I've never liked Corbyn, but as things stand I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yes he could and should have done a lot, lot more to curb antisemitism within the Labour party and yes has kept poor company in the past, but I just cling to the hope that  there are enough good people within the Labour party to reign him in and with age comes wisdom and with responsibilty also.

We all make mistakes in life and politics has been fucked in this country for years.

Time for a change, but as far as us staying in the EU.

If it's not broken don't try and fix it ffs.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 11:51:22 PM by RF »

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,784
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28293 on: September 11, 2019, 11:56:20 PM »
One gran is french and lives in the south of France. She thinks England and the English are mental.

The other gran wanted to vote Leave but said she voted Remain because we were all passionate about it. I dont believe her.
Well, I really wasn't expecting a reply - thank you for actually doing that. But what I was getting at is: do you like your grandparents? You seem to actually hate all old people. Surely not!?

Offline Banquo's Ghost

  • Macbeth's on repeat. To boldly split infinitives that lesser men would dare. To.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28294 on: September 11, 2019, 11:58:22 PM »
Honestly, there is no ethical option other than Revoke and Remain.

Labour pussyfooting about with their delusions is almost as criminal as the fascist-wannabees. I'll bet Milne is salivating at the prospect of getting his chance at following Cummings' lead and destroying centuries of parliamentary rule. Two men and their puppets that all should be locked in the oubliette.
Be humble, for you are made of earth. Be noble, for you are made of stars.

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,017
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28295 on: September 12, 2019, 12:00:27 AM »
I think there has been analysis showing a lot of leave voters feel that things can't get worse for them. We've had austerity for god knows how long while the bankers still pick up stupefying bonuses.
It does seem strange that these people who claim that they have been so neglected and abused and hard hit by austerity want to give more power to those who neglected them and abused them and imposed austerity upon them. Something doesn't add up.
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,255
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28296 on: September 12, 2019, 12:02:52 AM »
If remain are to win at the ballot box, they have to learn to not try to argue with idiots.

--edit-- fwiw I think getting some famous, trusted names wheeled out saying vote remain is important. Maybe hosts of strictly or bake off.  The managers of some football clubs. Alan sugars or Bransons ( though I think sugar may be a leave voter, not sure). Anyone from downtown abbey !
  :) You may well be right, not sure how many people can bear to watch the news nowadays, best way to influence public opinion is through Bake off etc  :)
I don't actually bother arguing with hard core leave voters one to one now, they are a lost cause, I will debate with them on a forum though,not to win them over,to win any undecided voters who maybe reading the thread.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,784
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28297 on: September 12, 2019, 12:17:44 AM »
If remain are to win at the ballot box, they have to learn to not try to argue with idiots.

--edit-- fwiw I think getting some famous, trusted names wheeled out saying vote remain is important. Maybe hosts of strictly or bake off.  The managers of some football clubs. Alan sugars or Bransons ( though I think sugar may be a leave voter, not sure). Anyone from downtown abbey !
Sugar on Brexit and stuff: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alan-sugar-on-nigel-farage-and-jeremy-corbyn-1-6048718

Can't say that I care for Alan Sugar (understatement), but he is mostly correct in what he is reported to have said in that article.

Not sure about using celebrities for such things. It generally irritates the fuck out of me, but it seems to work. Though, I suspect, it works less well on potential Remainers compared to your simpleminded Brexiteer.

I do try to not label Brexiteers as stupid. But, really, in the main, they are generally pretty thick. They have to be.

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,017
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28298 on: September 12, 2019, 12:21:26 AM »
  :) You may well be right, not sure how many people can bear to watch the news nowadays, best way to influence public opinion is through Bake off etc  :)
I don't actually bother arguing with hard core leave voters one to one now, they are a lost cause, I will debate with them on a forum though,not to win them over,to win any undecided voters who maybe reading the thread.
Agreed, I think it's too late now to change most Brexiters' minds, even if that were ever possible with some of them. Those who were going to change (and loads have) have done so already, as attested to by several poster here and the Remainer Now group. These are people who operate via reason and so can be shown the error of Brexit.

The rest became Brexiters for non-rational reasons (emotional, ideological, xenophobic, racist etc or because they stood to benefit financially or in some other way) and many have made their Leave state part of their identity, so to nullify that belief would be to nullify themselves.

I keep paraphrasing Swift when I say that you can't reason people out of something they didn't reason their selves into. To which I should add Dryden's notion that "a man is to be cheated into passion", i.e you get people to believe irrational things by cheating them into that state (using lies, trickery, manipulation etc), and that is exactly what the Leave campaign have done. 
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,255
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28299 on: September 12, 2019, 12:24:04 AM »
I'm going to go against the grain a bit here and say that Labour are probably doing the right thing here in going for a choice between a deal or remain, rather than just putting their hat on remain.

Don't worry, there will be enough young voters and northern tits like me who voted to leave, but have been educated and have long since seen sense.

Some will however still want to be given the choice. People don't like to be dictated to and want to make their own minds up.

They say an election will be decided in the northern heartlands. Working class people don't easily forget Thatcher and now they are being faced with a lying far right tory government again.  In fact this one is worse. i don't think Labour will necessary win an election outright, but do think they will do a lot better than is predicted in the polls.

I've never liked Corbyn, but as things stand I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yes he could and should have done a lot, lot more to curb antisemitism within the Labour party and yes has kept poor company in the past, but I just cling to the hope that  there are enough good people within the Labour party to reign him in and with age comes wisdom and with responsibilty also.

We all make mistakes in life and politics has been fucked in this country for years.

Time for a change, but as far as us staying in the EU.

If it's not broken don't try and fix it ffs.
I get where your coming from RF. if we are going to have a referendum then we should at least have a credible leave option.
It would have been a great argument for Labour to make 3 yrs ago.it might have stopped the country from splitting in half.
I would have no problem with it but Labour will be ripped apart defending their stance.
I am not bothered about Corbyn but I am worried over the consequences for remain if Johnson+Farage rip him to shreds. I fear they will rip him to shreds.

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,017
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28300 on: September 12, 2019, 12:27:28 AM »

I do try to not label Brexiteers as stupid. But, really, in the main, they are generally pretty thick. They have to be.
The point I always try and make when speaking to others is that I don't think Leavers were necessarily stupid to vote Leave; they were, after all, lied to and manipulated by experts.

But they often are stupid if they continue to spout the same old nonsense that has been proven to be false, or to double down on their position when it has been shown to be wrong.

Mostly, however, I don't think Leavers are necessarily stupid, they just aren't prepared to look at the facts in the face. They are shielding themselves from the reality because they are afraid it will show them to have backed the wrong horse, and not everyone is strong enough to be able to admit that, or to admit that they let themselves be lied to and manipulated.
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Offline Sons of pioneerS

  • are hungry men.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,601
  • Fuck The Tories.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28301 on: September 12, 2019, 12:34:36 AM »
I think there has been analysis showing a lot of leave voters feel that things can't get worse for them. We've had austerity for god knows how long while the bankers still pick up stupefying bonuses. They've been whipped into a vote for change ( see also the BBC article why George Soros is being treated as public enemy number one). There's a belief that even if things do get worse then the ruling classes will suffer more.  I'm not sure racism is a main driver as much as xenophobia. Frottage and his followers got brexiteers to win the referendum coming from being a 100/1 shot. I don't think people are ready to let go of that for benefits they can't see. Or for the promises that project fear concoct. And for many they don't feel the downsides affect them. Queues at ports, so what? Lack of skilled labour, doesn't affect me. Even I personally find it hard to believe that essential medicines won't get through.  I forsee there being difficulty with food but not a huge shock. I guess we have had it cushy for a long time and there hasn't been a real disaster to show how much things could get fucked up. To my poor memory, the real events have been that failure of two power generators. Foot and mouth disease, the volcano cancelling flights. Maybe the beast from the east. All of which were problematic, but dealt with reasonably comfortably. The expectation is we do so again. From the remain point of view, even if the disruption were guaranteed to be minimal there seems to be no reason to do it.

It's all so messed up. We've had a decade of austerity that is pretty much Tory ideology anyway. The Banking crisis just gave them the excuse to forge ahead with it so brutally as they have done. You always know with a Tory government that it means cuts, cuts, and more cuts. It's what they do. It seems ridiculously ironic that people who want change seem to want more power for the clowns who are wrecking the country rather than less. The Tories and the bankers people are so angry with go hand in hand. I can't actually get my head around the idea that people think the ruling classes will suffer more. They so very rarely do. They are extremely good at looking after themselves and each other. It's always the less well-off and the poor who pick up the tab when push comes to shove.

Regarding racism and/or xenophobia, I find that they tend to also go hand in hand. Racism often being the expression of xenophobia. I get that many feel the downsides possibly won't affect them, but I still hate the idea that downsides are ok just so long as they don't affect you*. I think that's all part of the rampant selfishness that is engulfing society these days. The 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality so loved by Thatcherites. This country is so screwed up. No wonder many in Europe think most of us are backward-thinking loons.  :-\




*Not you personally.
We've Seen Things You People Wouldn't Believe...
    *         *         *         *          *           *
Rome. London. Paris. Rome. Istanbul. Madrid.

COUPE DES CLUBS CHAMPIONS EUROPÉENS VAINQUERS SIX FOIS.

Offline Asam

  • has a mankini
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,461
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28302 on: September 12, 2019, 12:40:42 AM »
And central to the whole problem with Brexit is that despite confirmation from the government itself, Brexiteers will not change their stance. You could tell them that the country will explode if we leave the European Union and they'll stick their fingers in their ears and say "the country voted to leave". They don't fucking listen. They're deluded and they think it will be worth it because we will have blue passports and wonky bananas. Three years on and I still haven't heard a plausible non-racist reason that the average person would want to leave the EU.

Nailed it

Offline Sons of pioneerS

  • are hungry men.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,601
  • Fuck The Tories.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28303 on: September 12, 2019, 12:54:43 AM »
The point I always try and make when speaking to others is that I don't think Leavers were necessarily stupid to vote Leave; they were, after all, lied to and manipulated by experts.

But they often are stupid if they continue to spout the same old nonsense that has been proven to be false, or to double down on their position when it has been shown to be wrong.

Mostly, however, I don't think Leavers are necessarily stupid, they just aren't prepared to look at the facts in the face. They are shielding themselves from the reality because they are afraid it will show them to have backed the wrong horse, and not everyone is strong enough to be able to admit that, or to admit that they let themselves be lied to and manipulated.

I think you are spot on here.

The people were manipulated, used, abused and lied to by experts in this very field for their own ends. There is no shame in falling for the lies of expert liars and for being manipulated by professional manipulators. But for me, the stupidity starts when the lies are exposed, the manipulators are outed as the users and abusers that they are, yet you still plough on with your Leave mantra regardless. What they thought they were voting for was never on the table. That was an illusion peddled by the likes of Farage and Co.

The facts are, Leavers bought a Betamax when they really should have bought a VHS. They just won't admit they got it wrong after being horribly manipulated by frauds driven by self-interest.
We've Seen Things You People Wouldn't Believe...
    *         *         *         *          *           *
Rome. London. Paris. Rome. Istanbul. Madrid.

COUPE DES CLUBS CHAMPIONS EUROPÉENS VAINQUERS SIX FOIS.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,325
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28304 on: September 12, 2019, 07:01:15 AM »
I think you are spot on here.

The people were manipulated, used, abused and lied to by experts in this very field for their own ends. There is no shame in falling for the lies of expert liars and for being manipulated by professional manipulators. But for me, the stupidity starts when the lies are exposed, the manipulators are outed as the users and abusers that they are, yet you still plough on with your Leave mantra regardless. What they thought they were voting for was never on the table. That was an illusion peddled by the likes of Farage and Co.

The facts are, Leavers bought a Betamax when they really should have bought a VHS. They just won't admit they got it wrong after being horribly manipulated by frauds driven by self-interest.

So you're saying they are stuck watching Gremlins and Terms of Endearment for the rest of their lives?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline jepovic

  • Only interested in the "prestigious" games, so won't be celebrating anything less.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,590
  • Meh sd
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28305 on: September 12, 2019, 07:12:19 AM »
Yeah leave voters fell for a lot of bulls,, and it wasn't actually about leaving the EU they told us, it was about feeling neglected by our politicians, how are politicians have ignored them and left these areas to stagnate.many were told they have nothing to loose so why not vote Brexit, things can't get worse after all, who made these arguments,?  the RIGHT WING TOLD THEM.the dickeheads fell for it hook line and sinker, even now they argue stop calling us stupid, we know what we voted for, we voted to leave the EU.
They have argued they are being ignored by our politicians and they took their anger out on the only people who have tried to improve their lives, The EU, subsidies for all the deprived areas of the UK.
Don't call them stupid though.
And the left wing said "uhmmm, maybe remain or, uhmmm, leave"

Online rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag?
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,923
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28306 on: September 12, 2019, 07:13:56 AM »
Have any of the drivers even talked about EU Permits Rob.
It hardly gets mentioned now and it's a massive concern for Road Haulage and the country.
Only 5% of UK trucks who now enter the EU will be allowed into the EU after Brexit.
We have heard from countries like Turkey who have a CU and they tell us they get nowhere near the actually amount of Permits they want,  the Permits are only valid for 1 truck and run for months,they are all snapped up as soon as they are issued.


I've not spoken to any international drivers, so that kind of thing just passes them by. The only thing discussed was what placards needed to be on trailers when you are doing an international run, as they go from road to sea to road. While shipping notes were covered, nothing was mentioned, nor really applicable to the course, on what the customs changes will be like when running goods abroad.

One thing that did "whoosh" them all, was ADR is a Europe wide standard, but each country has their own domestic regulations. In the UK we drive on the Dangerous goods by road rules and only switch to ADR if running to Europe. The UK use different labels on the trailers carrying dangerous goods to what is used under ADR. I thought they said we all had to do what the EU says?

Offline PaulF

  • -.-- -. .-- .-
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,202
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28307 on: September 12, 2019, 07:24:16 AM »
We've booked to go to Disneyland Paris in mid November so I went to government site to see what we'd need. Thankfully , from what I can tell, a visa will only be needed for visits more than ninety days. However there was obvious uncertainty about anything else.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Online Groundskeeper Willie

  • Loves a good Meat Flute! Silent screaming fistpumper. Don't wake the kids! He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty chip! Mattis, den svenska pedanten! Pantless arse-barer not used to withdrawal.
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,948
  • Internet Philantropist Lvl 1
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28308 on: September 12, 2019, 07:51:24 AM »
So Boris and his gang of c*nts are doing all this because they are in line to get done for breaking European tax laws?
They don't think it be like it is, but it do.

Offline Circa1892

  • Real Madrid 0 - 1 Liverpool - Parc des Princes, 27th May 1981 Remember?... About as intimidating as Bambi.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,936
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28309 on: September 12, 2019, 08:03:04 AM »
So Boris and his gang of c*nts are doing all this because they are in line to get done for breaking European tax laws?

A mixture of that and having bet on shorting the pound. And for Farage and Banks it’s probably because their paymasters in Russia and the US far right want a weaker Europe.

Online Groundskeeper Willie

  • Loves a good Meat Flute! Silent screaming fistpumper. Don't wake the kids! He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty chip! Mattis, den svenska pedanten! Pantless arse-barer not used to withdrawal.
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,948
  • Internet Philantropist Lvl 1
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28310 on: September 12, 2019, 08:12:14 AM »
I just can't fathom how politicians have fucked the country over. I suspect everyone knows the best for the COUNTRY is to stay, but they are putting personal gains over the good of the people. They should all rot in jail. And for the opposition to standl meekly by (from what I gather), is equally abhorrent.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 08:19:47 AM by Groundskeeper Willie »
They don't think it be like it is, but it do.

Offline KillieRed

  • Jaro.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,618
  • Nemo me impune lacessit.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28311 on: September 12, 2019, 08:22:43 AM »
We've booked to go to Disneyland Paris in mid November so I went to government site to see what we'd need. Thankfully , from what I can tell, a visa will only be needed for visits more than ninety days. However there was obvious uncertainty about anything else.

I`d take some ponchos  ;)
"Nobody knows anything..." William Goldman.

XB1 Gamertag: BrothersYork

Offline thaddeus

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28312 on: September 12, 2019, 08:37:06 AM »
Radio 5 on top impartiality form again this morning.

Invite two guests on to discuss Brexit and YellowHammer; person A claims YellowHammer is made up as nobody knows what might happen and that we should just "get on with it", person B has no opinions on the matter despite being repeatedly invited into the conversation.

To be fair to the presenters they tried to facilitate a discussion (although to their detriment they happily went along with the "nobody knows what might happen line").  The researchers who found the guests are apparently working off the same instructions as those roving reporters who trawl the market towns during working hours to find the most disaffected Brexiteers they can.

Edit: They are constantly repeating that this is a worst-case document when they know full well it was the base case until it went through the PR machine.  Andy McDonnell pointed that out but was shot down by Nicky Campbell as just quibbling over semantics.  I'd think the difference between the base case - this is likely to happen - and the worst case - this is unlikely to happen - is worth pointing out!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 08:42:22 AM by thaddeus »

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,324
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28313 on: September 12, 2019, 09:10:39 AM »
Most infuriates me because there is the expertise there willing and available to give an apolitical take on the facts. Just not as convenient for 24 hour rolling news coverage as pulling on randos, or political talking heads, with VERY STRONG OPINIONS. Not that even that excuses some of the guff on the supposed flagship of Today.

Not sure that's enough to convince of a positive case for alternatives to 'dumb shit which sounds good' all the same.

-----

Purely for a different perspective, Garvan Walshe (think he's still a Tory remainer) writes about the future options for Brexiteers at Conservative Home.


He's wrong about 'no deal' having been taken away - just hopefully delayed - but, perhaps unsurprisingly, his readers don't want to contest that when they can tell him to 'fuck off and join the Lib Dems' (or words to the same effect).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 09:22:00 AM by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,017
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28314 on: September 12, 2019, 09:30:24 AM »
Thought this was decent. Surely a piss-take of the Daily Mail's overheated rhetoric?

"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,784
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28315 on: September 12, 2019, 09:39:39 AM »
The point I always try and make when speaking to others is that I don't think Leavers were necessarily stupid to vote Leave; they were, after all, lied to and manipulated by experts.

But they often are stupid if they continue to spout the same old nonsense that has been proven to be false, or to double down on their position when it has been shown to be wrong.

Mostly, however, I don't think Leavers are necessarily stupid, they just aren't prepared to look at the facts in the face. They are shielding themselves from the reality because they are afraid it will show them to have backed the wrong horse, and not everyone is strong enough to be able to admit that, or to admit that they let themselves be lied to and manipulated.
Yeah, like I said, stupid. ;)

Actually, I mostly agree with you. In the past, I too have argued for engagement. But, in the vast majority of cases, those who are turntable have now already turned. For the most part, the remainder are stupid, or - if you prefer - stubborn, scared manipulated, etc. Mostly, the difference is just semantics. After all, one reasonable definition of stupidity might be: easily manipulated by obvious, easily checked lies; or too stubborn to reflect upon a previous position in the face of new facts. We could call it 'human nature', but human nature includes stupid too.

Offline naka

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,275
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28316 on: September 12, 2019, 09:42:12 AM »
Yeah leave voters fell for a lot of bulls,, and it wasn't actually about leaving the EU they told us, it was about feeling neglected by our politicians, how are politicians have ignored them and left these areas to stagnate.many were told they have nothing to loose so why not vote Brexit, things can't get worse after all, who made these arguments,?  the RIGHT WING TOLD THEM.the dickeheads fell for it hook line and sinker, even now they argue stop calling us stupid, we know what we voted for, we voted to leave the EU.
They have argued they are being ignored by our politicians and they took their anger out on the only people who have tried to improve their lives, The EU, subsidies for all the deprived areas of the UK.
Don't call them stupid though.

genuine question as am looking in from the outside regarding the Unions( not a member), what are Unite`s and the CWC rationale for leaving the EU when they know the effect it will have on their membership?

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,784
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28317 on: September 12, 2019, 09:51:26 AM »
Thought this was decent. Surely a piss-take of the Daily Mail's overheated rhetoric?


It may be a parody of the Mail headline from a couple of years ago, but I do not think it defensible to portray court decisions in this manner. If the publication genuinely feels there is something screw-whiff about a court decision, report the public and expert reaction and why people they think that. Similarly, do not take purely partisan view when the decision goes your way. It is not a footy match.

Offline Classycara

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,090
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28318 on: September 12, 2019, 09:56:41 AM »
It may be a parody of the Mail headline from a couple of years ago, but I do not think it defensible to portray court decisions in this manner. If the publication genuinely feels there is something screw-whiff about a court decision, report the public and expert reaction and why people they think that. Similarly, do not take purely partisan view when the decision goes your way. It is not a footy match.

I felt the same. It's a bit embarrassing. Always uncomfortable with partisanship, outside of my football team.

I can't get on board with that kind of dumbing down of news, even if it's being favourable about a ruling I agree with. But it's their call, as we have a free press, and they're not as embarrassing as the right wingers not reporting this on the front page and then trying to discredit. Still,

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,523
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28319 on: September 12, 2019, 10:03:13 AM »
I just can't fathom how politicians have fucked the country over. I suspect everyone knows the best for the COUNTRY is to stay, but they are putting personal gains over the good of the people. They should all rot in jail. And for the opposition to standl meekly by (from what I gather), is equally abhorrent.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

There's a list of names in the article. I find it hard to believe that enough MPs of that time have since stepped down/lost their seat in order to significantly change the split portrayed in that image.