Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
55 (8.9%)
Mays Deal!
13 (2.1%)
No Brexit!
447 (72.6%)
Don't Know
9 (1.5%)
Don't Care
12 (1.9%)
I don't live in the UK
80 (13%)

Total Members Voted: 616

Author Topic: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!  (Read 530378 times)

Offline Machae

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23280 on: June 12, 2019, 08:30:23 PM »
That labour list is fucking shocking. A lot of those northern Labour MP’s need a good slap. What the fuck are they playing at?

Just looking to keep their easy, cushy jobs.

They definitely need a good slapping, smug twats.


You also have ex-Labour MPs like Ian Austin and Ivan Lewis, who didn't leave the party for Brexit reasons, voting against.

Cant they be booted out, some of those have defied their party on every vote put forward

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23281 on: June 12, 2019, 09:40:30 PM »
Quote from: Tepid T₂O link=topic=340923.msg16678843#msg16678843

We will see real hardship, real unemployment, real shortages.  And for what?


Freedom for the UK's financial services sector to continue its 'light-touch' regulation and the BOTs/CDs to continue their veil of secrecy without EU oversight.
This season, I shall mostly be wetting the bed.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23282 on: June 12, 2019, 09:46:58 PM »
That shameless gobshite Graham Stringer amongst the 8 again.

Just after I resigned, but before I got deleted from all the e-mail chains, there was another attempt to make some mild criticism of him consistently voting against the whip on EU issues from some of the newer members in my ward. Motion ended up going to the CLP as an ode of praise to the leadership's position on Brexit instead. If Hoey is used as the reason for the deselection attempts to begin then Stringer is still going to be at the back of the queue. Too close to lèse-majesté otherwise.
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Offline Big Jezza’s Jizza

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23283 on: June 12, 2019, 10:21:11 PM »
Out of the 13 abstainers tonight. 11 were pairs with Tory abstainers so were allowed. 2 abstained deliberately they were Gareth Snell and Ruth Smeeth
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23284 on: June 12, 2019, 10:23:47 PM »
Can Smeeth be deselcted?

Offline John C

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23285 on: June 12, 2019, 10:35:37 PM »
Just after I resigned, but before I got deleted from all the e-mail chains,
I've missed your interesting background mate. Where from?
PM if it's better for you, but I'm extremely interested in your story.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23286 on: June 12, 2019, 10:37:34 PM »
Quote
Research from @GMB_Union shows that leaving under WTO rules could increase the cost of an average shopping basket by over £800 a year! Tory leadership candidates should rule out a no deal Brexit to stop the increased costs being passed on to UK shoppers.

2:06 am - 10 Jun 2019

https://twitter.com/RuthSmeeth/status/1138009473564446720

 :butt

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23287 on: June 12, 2019, 10:39:21 PM »
Can Smeeth be deselcted?

Depends on her CLP, I don't know it, but yeah and it'll get easier to do when the NEC set out when the new rules making it easier to kick in. Was expected to happen in March to allow for September/October deselections but a decision has been delayed as it seems like they've figured out that the MPs most likely to get deselected are likely decide to go independent or shift parties if it happens to them.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23288 on: June 12, 2019, 10:39:44 PM »
Personally I think the likes of Smeeth and Snell are trying to pander to voters who are largely lost to Labour anyway.

Voters who want a No Deal and have Brexit as a high priority in terms of issues they are voting over aren't going to be voting for Labour whatever Labour say. As pissed off as I am with Labour's position, or lack thereof, on Brexit, Labour is never going to be able to offer the kind of Brexit rhetoric to placate that ovting group that a twat like BoJo the clown is.

Labour's chances of electoral success, basically now depend on Remainers being willing to hold their nose and vote for them, maybe that can make that work again as it almost did in 2017, but I'm not convinced, the LibDems seem to be in the process of being detoxified and that will probably do for Labour in the end

Online Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23289 on: June 12, 2019, 10:47:06 PM »
I've missed your interesting background mate. Where from?
PM if it's better for you, but I'm extremely interested in your story.

Half the family's from Liverpool originally. Moved to North Wales for work in the 70s - back when Norweb and Manweb were things. Other half miners and steelworkers from North Wales. Other brothers got practical talents, I ended up happier with a book and a pen. Ended up in Manchester myself a fair few years back, initially to do postgrad stuff and then a PGCE, first in family to uni and all that, now up in Cheetham Hill, Manchester.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 10:48:42 PM by Zeb »
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Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23290 on: June 12, 2019, 10:47:20 PM »
Personally I think the likes of Smeeth and Snell are trying to pander to voters who are largely lost to Labour anyway.

Voters who want a No Deal and have Brexit as a high priority in terms of issues they are voting over aren't going to be voting for Labour whatever Labour say. As pissed off as I am with Labour's position, or lack thereof, on Brexit, Labour is never going to be able to offer the kind of Brexit rhetoric to placate that ovting group that a twat like BoJo the clown is.

Exactly.

Labour's chances of electoral success, basically now depend on Remainers being willing to hold their nose and vote for them, maybe that can make that work again as it almost did in 2017, but I'm not convinced, the LibDems seem to be in the process of being detoxified and that will probably do for Labour in the end

You can never rule out two party politics kicking in at a general election. It'll be interesting to see if the "vote Labour as a vote against Tories" thought process gives in and goes elsewhere in the face of an unpopular leader, incompetent politics and the arrogant, take Remain voters for granted attitude that's been on display while chasing Leave votes they can't win.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23292 on: June 13, 2019, 12:16:31 AM »
Wasnt the Yvette-Cooper proposal that just scraped through to prevent a no deal (or someones motion)? Why was today's motion different to that?

I haven't a clue what's going on anymore

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23293 on: June 13, 2019, 12:22:21 AM »
Wasnt the Yvette-Cooper proposal that scraped through to prevent a no deal? Why was today's motion different to that?

I haven't a clue what's going on anymore

Cooper's proposal last time only applied to the last time we faced 'no deal'. So it effectively gave the government cover to get an extension and push the decision to October. Today's vote was to start a similar process to what happened with Cooper but applying to October. First stage is to carve out time in Parliament for the opposition parties and Tory rebels to pass a law but it's failed at that point. Question is whether MPs will now get any other opportunity to even try the first stage - the government doesn't have to give the opposition time to do anything, which is the time they used today, and that leaves amending relevant legislation the government may want to pass - but 'no deal' can happen without the government needing to pass anything.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Machae

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23294 on: June 13, 2019, 12:33:22 AM »
Got you, thanks.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23295 on: June 13, 2019, 07:51:59 AM »
Cant they be booted out, some of those have defied their party on every vote put forward

If that could happen then Corbyn wouldn't be in the party now

He voted over 400 times against the Labour Whip (More than 500 times total)
Brexit. As stupid as you can imagine.

The poor voting to make themselves worse off and their masters richer.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23296 on: June 13, 2019, 06:24:02 PM »
Or on the other hand they lived through the Korean War, the trouble in Palestine, Aden,national service, three day week, numerous strikes,  black tuesday, Pound devalued at least three times, the iron curtain, the cuban missile crisis, the worry about an atomic war instead of affordable housing try slum dwellings no central heating outside toilets, tin baths in front a fire if you were lucky, coal fires if you were lucky, no school buses, no cars to take you to school you either cycled or walked,  a fledgling NHS system nobody could afford holidays abroad,  11 plus, bog standard secondary modern schools, teachers who hit the students, police officers that hit kids if they messed up, hanging, homosexuality a crime,  no chance of university unless you were in a grammar school and parents who could afford to help you out, the grants were nowhere near enough, high unemployment throughout the decades, pollution from the power stations and furnaces, no internet, precious little tv , two radio stations, only one played music. the years of Heath Wilson bouncing in and out of number ten like rubber balls, before that the never had it so good Macmillan, then the grouse shooting Hume, the Profumo scandal, world in turmoil more wars than you have ever seen.
 
Now i understand that todays generation and people like you just feel entitled to a lot of stuff we never had and at the time frankly never needed, but if you think growing up in the fifties and sixties was so fucking easy then you are delusional feller, yeah the baby boomers great time to be alive !  Land of Milk and Honey mate.

You're pretty spot on with most of that. I have never been fond of these attempts to sow generational division.

What I will say though is that the younger generations today are the first since before the wars who are likely to see their standard of living decline as the years go by, whereas the boomers had more to look forward to (at least in theory). I think people can deal with more in the present if they know things are likely to get better in the future.

I'd also say that, materialism aside, boomers at least had more in the way of community and identity even if times were more lean. Young generations today have never known anything but individualistic consumerism, as that is what they have inherited. I'd say the former is probably more conducive of a happy and meaningful life, far more then materialism.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23297 on: June 13, 2019, 06:31:54 PM »
You're pretty spot on with most of that. I have never been fond of these attempts to sow generational division.

What I will say though is that the younger generations today are the first since before the wars who are likely to see their standard of living decline as the years go by, whereas the boomers had more to look forward to (at least in theory). I think people can deal with more in the present if they know things are likely to get better in the future.

I'd also say that, materialism aside, boomers at least had more in the way of community and identity even if times were more lean. Young generations today have never known anything but individualistic consumerism, as that is what they have inherited. I'd say the former is probably more conducive of a happy and meaningful life, far more then materialism.


Totally agree with the community element in those days people looked after each other, now they shut the door and remain strangers, also we had such things as playing fields were we could play sports for free or hang around with our mates now they have these sterile sports centers were people workout alone with the headphones to cut out anyone and anything around them which also costs money and the kids end up hanging about in supermarket carparks and suchlike places because they have nowhere else to go to.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23298 on: June 13, 2019, 06:33:09 PM »
Fucking hell MP’s are not that bright.

Your Damascus moment?
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Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23299 on: June 13, 2019, 08:48:03 PM »
Your Damascus moment?

More likely to be daily amazement at how often they manage to lower the bar.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23300 on: June 15, 2019, 11:21:59 PM »
Varadkar: Removing backstop 'is effectively no deal'

Quote
The taoiseach (Irish prime minister) has said removing the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement, would be "effectively the same as no deal".

Leo Varadkar was responding to comments from some candidates seeking to replace Theresa May as prime minister.

Many contenders have proposed changes to the backstop, even though the EU says it is not up for renegotiation.

Mr Varadkar said: "If we don't have that (the backstop), there is no deal".

Quote
Speaking on Irish National Broadcaster RTÉ's Marian Finucane programme, the taoiseach said it was "alarming" some leading Conservatives were suggesting a no-deal Brexit.

"It's a legal guarantee and legally operable guarantee that we will never see a hard border again," Mr Varadkar said of the backstop.

He also responded to calls for a time limit to be attached to the backstop.

"The difficulties we have with a time limit, is effectively you are saying there will or could be a hard border once that time limit expires - that isn't a backstop," he said.

"What we are open to, and always have been open to, is alternative arrangements that perhaps could avoid a hard border, through procedures and technologies and so on.

"What we expect, and I don't think it's unreasonable - we want to see that fleshed out, we want to see it exist, it demonstrated before we are willing to give up the backstop.

"What people are saying is, 'give up the backstop' which we know will work legally and operationally in return for something that doesn't yet exist but might exist in the future.

"I can't do that to the border communities."

Mr Varadkar also said he was "concerned at the idea, and there is an idea there in Westminster, in London, that somehow Theresa May was a bad negotiator and got a bad deal.

"That's not true. She was a good negotiator, she had a good team.

"She probably got the best deal that she could get given that a country leaving the EU doesn't have much leverage.

"The fact that the failure of the House Of Commons to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement somehow means they are going to get a better deal, that is just not how the European Union works," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48647656

Offline drmick

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23301 on: Yesterday at 09:07:28 PM »
I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23302 on: Yesterday at 09:12:18 PM »
I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

He'd piss off not only the DUP by doing that, but also the Scottish Tories because it's potentially splitting up the union via another referendum which is what they spend their time saying the SNP is bad for pursuing.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23303 on: Yesterday at 09:13:39 PM »
I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.

The ERG would have that. They couldnt give a shit about NI and the DUP.

Offline Just Elmo?

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23304 on: Yesterday at 09:25:49 PM »
He'd piss off not only the DUP by doing that, but also the Scottish Tories because it's potentially splitting up the union via another referendum which is what they spend their time saying the SNP is bad for pursuing.

Also set's the precedent that a part of the UK can stay in the SM & CU. If NI can do it, why not Scotland?

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23305 on: Yesterday at 09:26:18 PM »
Also set's the precedent that a part of the UK can stay in the SM & CU. If NI can do it, why not Scotland?
Or London..
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23306 on: Yesterday at 09:33:28 PM »
I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.
As said DUP and SNP hit the roof. not to mention how this could possibly work in practical terms, tariffs between NI and rest of UK, NI in UK but not it's trade agreements with the rest of the world but the biggest short term flaw and contradiction to his arguments is how can he possibly get this whole process completed by the end of October. I thought he promised Family guy there would be no extension under any circumstances.
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Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23307 on: Yesterday at 10:07:17 PM »
As said DUP and SNP hit the roof. not to mention how this could possibly work in practical terms, tariffs between NI and rest of UK, NI in UK but not it's trade agreements with the rest of the world but the biggest short term flaw and contradiction to his arguments is how can he possibly get this whole process completed by the end of October. I thought he promised Family guy there would be no extension under any circumstances.
um I don't think anyone believes anything Boris says or promises. More so than other politicians.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23308 on: Yesterday at 10:14:50 PM »
um I don't think anyone believes anything Boris says or promises. More so than other politicians.
He's not that popular with the Tory MPs. I know someone said theres at least 100 Tory MPs who are voting ,anyone but Boris, he's a liability as well but they must look at him as the only PM capable of wining back Tory voters so they can keep their seats.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:19:41 PM by oldfordie »
"Never has so much been lost by so many, to satisfy so few" - Nicola Sturgeon on the impact of Brexit

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23309 on: Yesterday at 10:50:29 PM »
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/104598/tory-grandee-ken-clarke-vows-bring-down
Tory grandee Ken Clarke has promised to vote to bring down any “idiot” future Tory prime minister if they attempt to force a no-deal Brexit through Parliament.

A voice in the wilderness but is there enough within the House to do this?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23310 on: Today at 12:57:32 AM »
Says it all really.

 
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« Last Edit: Today at 01:08:54 AM by oldfordie »
"Never has so much been lost by so many, to satisfy so few" - Nicola Sturgeon on the impact of Brexit

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23311 on: Today at 02:01:59 AM »
I'm not sure if this was his own idea, or if he has an inside source on Team Boris, but Michael Portillo thinks Boris' renegotiation trick with the EU will be to turn the backstop into an NI only backstop and then put that to a referendum in Northern Ireland.
If that won a referendum in NI (which it likely would) then the DUP pulls its support for the government altogether. I doubt they would even wait that long, probably pull it as soon as that approach passed parliament.

How much do the Tories fancy another GE?

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23312 on: Today at 12:05:35 PM »
Labour must argue strongly for Remain, says Tom Watson

Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson has urged his party to "strongly" make the case for the UK staying in the EU.

In a speech on London, he reiterated his push for another referendum to break the Brexit deadlock - saying Labour members "hearts are Remain".

His party had been "afraid to tell the truth" about the EU, he suggested.

Leader Jeremy Corbyn has so far resisted calls to fully back another public vote, saying the party would support it in certain circumstances.

That nuance was blamed for Labour's performance at the European elections.

The party came third behind The Brexit Party and the Liberal Democrats, with its share of the vote falling to 14%.

Afterwards, several senior figures criticised a lack of clarity on Brexit.

Shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry said the results boosted the case for another referendum - an outcome Mr Corbyn has said is "some way off".

Labour MPs remain split, with those representing Leave areas warning against backing a further public vote.

Last week, MPs expressed their frustration at a heated meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party, with some expressing concern that it had become "normalised" for Labour voters to back other parties over Brexit.

The shadow cabinet was due to meet on Monday to discuss Brexit, but the meeting has been postponed.

In a speech to the Centre for European Reform, Mr Watson - who has repeatedly put pressure on Mr Corbyn to back a further referendum - said there was still time to reverse the Brexit vote.

He called for a one-off meeting or ballot of members to be held to vote on a shift in policy - warning Labour could not afford to wait until its party conference in late September.

"Pro-European is who we are and who we have always been. Our members are Remain. Our values are Remain. Our hearts are Remain," he said.

"The only way to break the political deadlock is to bring the public back into this decision and we must argue strongly to remain.

"Our future doesn't need to be Brexit. We can change our future. We can put Britain back at the heart of Europe again.

"We can be proud of leading the fight for a fairer and stronger future, together. But we can only achieve this future if Labour fights for it and champions it. It's time we do that."

As he gave his speech, Labour chairman Ian Lavery - who is against another referendum - tweeted that "ignoring Leave voters" was not a sensible move.

Conversely, though, Mr Watson has received support from a number of colleagues, including Jess Phillips and Anna Turley.

Another MP, Siobhain McDonagh, tweeted: "I have had my differences with Tom Watson over the years but this video is brilliant and his argument is bang on! So many Labour members will be cheering him on!"

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg says plenty of Labour MPs are worried because they represent constituencies with Leave voters, but there is no question the balance in the party is on the other side.

"There are plenty of senior people - including those absolutely loyal to Jeremy Corbyn - who think it is time for the leadership to make a clearer statement arguing for another referendum and for Britain to stay in EU," she says.

"Some of those think it is vital to do before the summer and they predict we may end up with an election in the autumn with the Tories arguing for Leave and Labour arguing for Remain."

However, Mr Watson said all strands of opinion within the party are entitled to be heard.

He also argued that the "core" EU values of internationalism, solidarity and freedom are also the values of Labour.

"Some people have begun to equate support for Europe with class identity - I don't think that's right or helpful," he said.

"The majority of Labour people are supportive of Europe and that support is not dictated by social class."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48658683

BIB - I think that's the first time I've seen the BBC accurately describe Labour 's "split" on Brexit. More of the same please.

Love that Watson's not playing along with the "working class = Brexit" narrative too.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23313 on: Today at 12:49:32 PM »

Resulting in howls of outrage and shouts of disloyalty and cries for deselection from the usual predictable nutjob quarters.

They're all quite mad.

Still, it will probably quieten the likely whatsapp coordinated outrage over the (unlikely possibility) of a war with Iran as they now switch over to attacking Watson, again.
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Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23314 on: Today at 01:07:00 PM »
As he gave his speech, Labour chairman Ian Lavery - who is against another referendum - tweeted that "ignoring Leave voters" was not a sensible move.

Besides the obvious point that they have happily ignored the millions of remain voters for the last few years (blindly assuming they'd stay with labour), the simple fact of the matter is that the majority of leave voters are not going to being voting labour regardless of how much their leadership might pander to them and you can see the dishonesty when they always refer back to that figure from the referendum as it is clearly impossible for that number to have reduced since then at all.  ::)