Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 849304 times)

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22280 on: May 2, 2019, 04:27:09 PM »
Geoff is there a reason why you use hyperbolic and extreme statements in response to people and turn to vitriol and abuse when you're met with a different opinion than yours?


It's as obvious as it is simple,Geoff tries to get any thread that has anything critical of Comrade Jezza and his attempts to turn the Labour Party into a Commie love fest shut down.

TBF to him,it has worked a few times so I don't expect him to change tact anytime soon.

We should all be thankful that Geoff no longer cares about Comrade Jezza or the Labour party,if he did we would all be fucked.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22281 on: May 2, 2019, 04:28:46 PM »
To be fair he was probably pissed.

I mean, we've all gone off on one now and then when we've had a few haven't we?



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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22282 on: May 2, 2019, 05:54:16 PM »
Given i suffer from Vertigo and therefore cannot drink this is yet another slur on my character, well done you!

I'd have thought a few pints on top of a bit of vertigo could be fun.

Corbyn enjoys it.

Also, in fairness to Andy, I feel compelled to point out that his post was a defence of your character and only a slur on John Barleycorn. I say a slur because John B makes some people more lovable not more cantankerous. But, as you say, your cantakerousness was all your own work in the end and nothing to do with Mr Barleycorn.
« Last Edit: May 2, 2019, 06:02:39 PM by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22283 on: May 2, 2019, 06:31:28 PM »
There are times when this thread can be stupider than Brexit
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22284 on: May 2, 2019, 06:39:56 PM »
There are times when this thread can be stupider than Brexit
Iím not sure thatís ever possible... even though itís doing itís best ;D
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22285 on: May 2, 2019, 08:21:20 PM »
I actually think Geoff makes some good points and these threads seem to develop into a common RAWK view i.e. Corbyn is bloody idiot which is then reinforced by multiple posters. I really don't like the bloke myself but as Geoff pointed out he was democratically elected as leader of the party with 250k votes in 2015 and then 312K in 2016 - so his popularity is increasing!

His followers are dismissed in these threads as gullible Corbynites and compared to members of a cult, but those voting numbers are big for a 500K turnout. Added to the gains made at the GE, he must be doing something right and warrants more analysis than just dismissing his followers. Could it be that his policies on things like nationalisation and defence are actually popular with the electorate? Could it be that people like his uncoventional approach because they are sick of 'standard' lying politicians - I think this was a key factor in Trump being elected. It's like the way Leave voters on here are dismissed as 'thick racists' and that's the end of it, but 17.4m voted Leave, again that's a big number and warrants further analysis. When I speak to Leavers, their concerns are things like immigration and sovereignty - are these genuine concerns, can they be addressed whilst still remaining in the EU? The stance of the EU seems to be that you don't get trade without FOM - isn't that a bit inflexible? There are a lot of good things about the EU but it isn't perfect by any means, but you are unlikely to read any negatives in this thread.

It does look like Corbyn wants Brexit but on his terms, he has however been playing the long game when it comes to Brexit tactics and I don't think that will necessarily be his final stance when push comes to shove and as public opinions continue to fluctuate. Given the climate at the time within the country in 2017, I couldn't see A50 not being triggered and anyone against it would have been seen being indecisive, from Corbyn's point of view it also provided him with the start of the 'Tory Brexit' which we had been warned about. There are still a few twists and turns to go with Brexit and its important to get the timings right with these political moves, Remain voters should be careful as it's not a given that a referendum would provide them with a favourable outcome especially if the timing isn't right.

If nothing more, Geoff's posts have stimulated some debate in here and personally given me pause for thought rather than reading the standard text in this thread.         
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22286 on: May 2, 2019, 08:30:30 PM »
Quote
I actually think Geoff makes some good points and these threads seem to develop into a common RAWK view i.e. Corbyn is bloody idiot which is then reinforced by multiple posters. I really don't like the bloke myself but as Geoff pointed out he was democratically elected as leader of the party with 250k votes in 2015 and then 312K in 2016 - so his popularity is increasing!
2016 was a long time ago and getting more votes from a party with a large number of nutters isnít something that will be reflected in votes that count (like a GE)

Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22287 on: May 2, 2019, 08:35:52 PM »
2016 was a long time ago and getting more votes from a party with a large number of nutters isnít something that will be reflected in votes that count (like a GE)

The GE was mentioned in the next paragraph of mine - conveniently edited?? Labour gained 30 seats from the Tory's / SNP in 2017 ??

Yeah so, the Labour vote increased nearly 10% from 30.4% in 2015 to 40% in 2017.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7979
« Last Edit: May 2, 2019, 08:55:45 PM by Yosser0_0 »
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22288 on: May 2, 2019, 10:02:48 PM »
I actually think Geoff makes some good points and these threads seem to develop into a common RAWK view i.e. Corbyn is bloody idiot which is then reinforced by multiple posters. I really don't like the bloke myself but as Geoff pointed out he was democratically elected as leader of the party with 250k votes in 2015 and then 312K in 2016 - so his popularity is increasing!

His followers are dismissed in these threads as gullible Corbynites and compared to members of a cult, but those voting numbers are big for a 500K turnout. Added to the gains made at the GE, he must be doing something right and warrants more analysis than just dismissing his followers. Could it be that his policies on things like nationalisation and defence are actually popular with the electorate? Could it be that people like his uncoventional approach because they are sick of 'standard' lying politicians - I think this was a key factor in Trump being elected. It's like the way Leave voters on here are dismissed as 'thick racists' and that's the end of it, but 17.4m voted Leave, again that's a big number and warrants further analysis. When I speak to Leavers, their concerns are things like immigration and sovereignty - are these genuine concerns, can they be addressed whilst still remaining in the EU? The stance of the EU seems to be that you don't get trade without FOM - isn't that a bit inflexible? There are a lot of good things about the EU but it isn't perfect by any means, but you are unlikely to read any negatives in this thread.

It does look like Corbyn wants Brexit but on his terms, he has however been playing the long game when it comes to Brexit tactics and I don't think that will necessarily be his final stance when push comes to shove and as public opinions continue to fluctuate. Given the climate at the time within the country in 2017, I couldn't see A50 not being triggered and anyone against it would have been seen being indecisive, from Corbyn's point of view it also provided him with the start of the 'Tory Brexit' which we had been warned about. There are still a few twists and turns to go with Brexit and its important to get the timings right with these political moves, Remain voters should be careful as it's not a given that a referendum would provide them with a favourable outcome especially if the timing isn't right.

If nothing more, Geoff's posts have stimulated some debate in here and personally given me pause for thought rather than reading the standard text in this thread.         
All the points you've raised have been covered forensically. from the day Corbyn reluctantly accepted standing for the Labour leadership to where we are now, further analysis covering something not already covered would be hard to find.
The reasons for people voting leave have also been forensically covered, sorry but your post comes across as RAWK dismissing any support for Corbyn or Brexit without going into great detail, these 2 arguments have been the most forensically debated arguments ive seen.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22289 on: May 2, 2019, 11:08:12 PM »
I see the Labour party has still not quite understood I've left the party. Still getting letters, emails you name it. How many times do I have to send resignations to get through to them?  :butt
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22290 on: May 2, 2019, 11:15:19 PM »
I see the Labour party has still not quite understood I've left the party. Still getting letters, emails you name it. How many times do I have to send resignations to get through to them?  :butt
:) Ive had a few letters, got a phone call last week as well, told them I wont be rejoining, I was told they are going to give me 4 months grace before my membership lapses.
All about covering up all the members walking away from the party right now.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22291 on: May 2, 2019, 11:21:49 PM »
:) Ive had a few letters, got a phone call last week as well, told them I wont be rejoining, I was told they are going to give me 4 months grace before my membership lapses.
All about covering up all the members walking away from the party right now.

I've not received any phone call, it would be interesting to find out how many people have actually left. It felt strange to vote Green today though I've done it on the odd occasion in local elections.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22292 on: May 2, 2019, 11:25:24 PM »
I've not received any phone call, it would be interesting to find out how many people have actually left. It felt strange to vote Green today though I've done it on the odd occasion in local elections.
I voted Labour for the council elections, they will stick to Labour values and fight service cuts etc. I don't mind if this means rate rises.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22293 on: May 3, 2019, 12:24:15 AM »
:) Ive had a few letters, got a phone call last week as well, told them I wont be rejoining, I was told they are going to give me 4 months grace before my membership lapses.
All about covering up all the members walking away from the party right now.
see I was thinking the other day, two years they were happily telling anyone of the member numbers, donít seem to mention it apart from Ďlargest party in Europeí

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22294 on: May 3, 2019, 12:58:22 AM »
see I was thinking the other day, two years they were happily telling anyone of the member numbers, donít seem to mention it apart from Ďlargest party in Europeí
Yeah, I don't think they are in any financial trouble but they are making cutbacks. suggests revenue has fallen dramatically, can only mean members subs have fallen dramatically as so many people have just cancelled their direct debits and walked away. embarrassing trend that exposes the falling support for Corbyns Labour. 

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22295 on: May 3, 2019, 10:02:27 AM »
Barry Gardiner says to Tory James Cleverly: "We are in there trying to bail you guys out"

https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1124191837051326464

Loving this proper, hardcore, stick-it-to-the-Tories Labour party we have these days.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22296 on: May 3, 2019, 10:09:50 AM »
Barry Gardiner says to Tory James Cleverly: "We are in there trying to bail you guys out"

https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1124191837051326464

Loving this proper, hardcore, stick-it-to-the-Tories Labour party we have these days.

That should be the Lid Dems and Greens euro election broadcast, repeated on loop constantly.

"We are in there trying to bail you guys out. Don't tell us we're not trying to deliver Brexit"
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22297 on: May 3, 2019, 10:15:05 AM »
All the points you've raised have been covered forensically. from the day Corbyn reluctantly accepted standing for the Labour leadership to where we are now, further analysis covering something not already covered would be hard to find.
The reasons for people voting leave have also been forensically covered, sorry but your post comes across as RAWK dismissing any support for Corbyn or Brexit without going into great detail, these 2 arguments have been the most forensically debated arguments ive seen.

I've read the threads and to be honest all I've seen is one way traffic, I was involved in some around the time of the referendum and any post hinting at a Leave opinion was angrily dismissed, I appreciate emotions were running high. If you can point me to the specific debate on immigration, then I'll quietly go away and read it.

I'm not trying to cause trouble, I think that one of the reasons why the Leave vote happened is because open and honest debates never happened. I remember watching a TV debate with Anne Sodbury basically calling somebody a racist for even raising the immigration issue, so guess what, everybody clammed up and the open debate never happened, doubts and questions were never quashed or reassurances given. The doubters simply walked away and voted leave.

I speak to a lot of Leavers, the North West is predominately Leave and I'm quite frank with them in trying to understand their thought process - not dismiss them. Try it, talk to them and I'll tell you want I really don't see any sign of a great shift towards Remain, many now want No deal, they feel angry about not being listened to. Again, the voting numbers were big, most areas around here were 60-70% Leave - that requires quite a big turnaround.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22298 on: May 3, 2019, 10:21:45 AM »
I've not received any phone call, it would be interesting to find out how many people have actually left. It felt strange to vote Green today though I've done it on the odd occasion in local elections.

I had an email from Jeremy Corbyn yesterday. I guess it just means you are on their mailing list rather than actually being a member, there's a link to opt out of communications at the bottom of the email.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22299 on: May 3, 2019, 11:02:38 AM »
I had an email from Jeremy Corbyn yesterday. I guess it just means you are on their mailing list rather than actually being a member, there's a link to opt out of communications at the bottom of the email.

A lot of the information I get is from my local party who I have constantly emailed but they continue to send endless stuff regardless. Thanks anyway, I guess they will get the message eventually.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22300 on: May 3, 2019, 11:46:09 AM »
ANDREW ADONIS: Remain supporters need to back Labour to make a People's Vote happen

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/andrew-adonis-writes-on-the-european-elections-brexit-and-peoples-vote-1-6027708

Well, that's one way of looking at it...
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22301 on: May 3, 2019, 11:56:37 AM »
I actually think Geoff makes some good points and these threads seem to develop into a common RAWK view i.e. Corbyn is bloody idiot which is then reinforced by multiple posters. I really don't like the bloke myself but as Geoff pointed out he was democratically elected as leader of the party with 250k votes in 2015 and then 312K in 2016 - so his popularity is increasing!

His followers are dismissed in these threads as gullible Corbynites and compared to members of a cult, but those voting numbers are big for a 500K turnout. Added to the gains made at the GE, he must be doing something right and warrants more analysis than just dismissing his followers. Could it be that his policies on things like nationalisation and defence are actually popular with the electorate? Could it be that people like his uncoventional approach because they are sick of 'standard' lying politicians - I think this was a key factor in Trump being elected. It's like the way Leave voters on here are dismissed as 'thick racists' and that's the end of it, but 17.4m voted Leave, again that's a big number and warrants further analysis. When I speak to Leavers, their concerns are things like immigration and sovereignty - are these genuine concerns, can they be addressed whilst still remaining in the EU? The stance of the EU seems to be that you don't get trade without FOM - isn't that a bit inflexible? There are a lot of good things about the EU but it isn't perfect by any means, but you are unlikely to read any negatives in this thread.

It does look like Corbyn wants Brexit but on his terms, he has however been playing the long game when it comes to Brexit tactics and I don't think that will necessarily be his final stance when push comes to shove and as public opinions continue to fluctuate. Given the climate at the time within the country in 2017, I couldn't see A50 not being triggered and anyone against it would have been seen being indecisive, from Corbyn's point of view it also provided him with the start of the 'Tory Brexit' which we had been warned about. There are still a few twists and turns to go with Brexit and its important to get the timings right with these political moves, Remain voters should be careful as it's not a given that a referendum would provide them with a favourable outcome especially if the timing isn't right.

If nothing more, Geoff's posts have stimulated some debate in here and personally given me pause for thought rather than reading the standard text in this thread.         
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Offline Titi Camara

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22302 on: May 3, 2019, 12:02:44 PM »
Quote
Ian Dunt
The whispers came all week. While the headlines focused on the sacking of defence secretary Gavin Williamson, a weird rumour started floating around. Labour and the Tories were close to a Brexit deal, people said. The spokesmen were sounding increasingly bullish. The 'landing zone' between their two positions had been spotted.
Once the local election results started dribbling in, the whispers turned into shouts. Labour had done terribly, as had the Conservatives. Both were being punished for failing to deliver Brexit. Something had to be done, and quickly. Time to sign-off on the deal.
This analysis, of course, makes no sense. The big winners of the night were the Greens and the Liberal Democrats, both parties with extremely clear pro-Remain policies. If this was a punishment for failing to deliver Brexit, it was a tremendously weird way of showing it. And yet public support for Remain is treated by journalists like a ghostly phenomenon - something we suspect might be in the air but have been reliably assured does not exist.

After all, Remain lost the referendum, so in the binary win-lose mind of many political commentators it should have at that point have simply vanished.
Demonstrable instances of Remain support are ignored. The Remainers who worked to deny Theresa May her majority in the 2017 general election were wallpapered over by the relentless nonsense about 80% of voters backing parties with pro-Brexit manifestos. The huge rallies in London became the subject of a whole subculture of crowd-counting methodology experts. The six-million strong Revoke petition was dismissed as a leaky and unreliable Twitter exercise. Remain voters are treated like an old family scandal - the thing polite visitors won't mention when they come over for dinner.
This led to the extraordinary sight this morning of political commentators looking at a screen showing the Tories down, Labour down, Ukip down, and the Greens and Lib Dems up - before promptly coming to the conclusion that voters were sending a message to get Brexit over with. The level of cognitive dissonance is quite remarkable.

But regardless, that is where we are, and it was what many Labour MPs heard loud and clear. Suddenly there was an increased pressure to seal a deal with the Tories next week.

It is worth remembering that doing so is simply insane. Put aside the rights-and-wrongs of it. On a basic strategic level, it is crazy for Labour to do.
First, it will cut the party in half. In a flash, Jeremy Corbyn will lose all his Remain MPs. And he will not lose them in a briefly humiliating vote which will be soon forgotten. He will lose them in an era-defining vote which will be remembered forever. That scar will stay there, exacerbated by every Brexit event which takes place afterwards. Look at it this way: Change UK MPs will be really, really hoping he does it.
Labour won't just share the blame for what's about to happen. It'll be worse than that. Labour will own it. So many Tories oppose a customs union that a majority of the governing party are likely to vote against, meaning that if it passes it'll need more Labour votes than Tory votes. May won't just be binding Corbyn's hands to Brexit, she will be passing him the disgusting muck-encrusted chalice in its entirety.
This deal is not going to be popular. May lies when she says that the withdrawal agreement draws a line under Brexit. It barely even starts it. All it finalises is the divorce. Ahead of us, there are countless years of talks, many of which will likely take place in the humiliating position of the backstop, during which the EU will continue to out-manoeuvre and out-negotiate us, just as it has for the last three years. To call it humbling is to give in to euphemism. It'll have all the dignity of a middle-aged man caught trying to cheat on his wife in a London nightclub.  And it will keep on going, day-after-day, relentlessly, a droning mixture of tedium and embarrassment, years after people lost any interest in the issue.
Remainers will hate it because it is Brexit - and precisely as self-harming and insane as they warned it would be.
Brexiters will hate it because it is awful - and they can tell themselves the fantasy that it would all have been fine if we had just no-dealed. In fact, that would make precisely no difference. It would be a harsher shock of humiliation and chaos, followed by a return to talks on precisely the same terms as before. But they won't know that. The unicorns will live freely on their sky-island, unaffected the grim refuting reality which an ERG victory would entail.
And the plan is for Labour to buy into that? It is crazy. It would destroy Corbyn and end the party for a generation. It would make the Lib Dems' decision to support tuition fees look like a masterstroke of electoral ingenuity.
The honest truth is that there is no exit from this situation at a parliamentary level. It does not exist. The only way to break the deadlock is to go back to the public for another referendum. That's no longer just some Remainer strategy. It's the only logical course of action from where we are now.

But of course, that cannot be contemplated, because Remain ceased to exist. So we are forced to go through this dreadful charade all over again, for no discernible purpose, and with no rhyme or reason.
« Last Edit: May 3, 2019, 12:05:29 PM by Titi Camara »
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22303 on: May 3, 2019, 12:11:46 PM »
From the Guardian live feed.  The hate is real.

Quote

The campaign was started by Leave.EU, which tweeted in March, encouraging people to spoil their ballot papers.


Not related to the image above, but somebody else who spoiled their paper:

Quote

The major parties have been lying for three years straight about Brexit and, in a two-party system, neither of them deserve to be voted for at any level.

Iím actually a member of the Conservatives, so under normal circumstances I would have voted for them. If there was a Brexit Party candidate I would have voted for them.



Also, on that Barry Gardiner tweet...

Quote
Earlier I quoted a tweet from the Labour MP Neil Coyle (see 9.48am) referring to ďBailout BarryĒ. It was a reference to Barry Gardiner, the shadow international trade secretary, saying Labour were bailing out the Tories.

Here is the actual quote from Gardiner. He was speaking on one of the overnight election programmes and told the Tory Brexit minister James Cleverly:

We are in there, trying to bail you guys out. We are now trying to negotiate with you because your prime minister, whoís lost control of her party and lost any chance of getting her deal through parliament, has come to us and said: ĎPlease, I now need to listen to the ideas you have been putting forward.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22304 on: May 3, 2019, 12:23:01 PM »
From the Guardian live feed.  The hate is real.

Not related to the image above, but somebody else who spoiled their paper:



Also, on that Barry Gardiner tweet...


Terrible handwriting and weird use of the capital I 

probably only allowed crayons in real life.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22305 on: May 3, 2019, 01:03:20 PM »
From the Guardian live feed.  The hate is real.

Not related to the image above, but somebody else who spoiled their paper:



Also, on that Barry Gardiner tweet...

Actually quite scary.

Both the message and that fool Gardiners tweet.

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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22306 on: May 3, 2019, 02:34:43 PM »

I speak to a lot of Leavers, the North West is predominately Leave and I'm quite frank with them in trying to understand their thought process - not dismiss them. Try it, talk to them and I'll tell you want I really don't see any sign of a great shift towards Remain, many now want No deal, they feel angry about not being listened to. Again, the voting numbers were big, most areas around here were 60-70% Leave - that requires quite a big turnaround.
So Leavers are doubling down on No Deal because their pride has been hurt? Why should that be the basis of policies and decisions that could ravage the whole country?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22307 on: May 3, 2019, 02:41:26 PM »
Am not buying for a second the line that these results demonstrate the nation is fed up with Brexit and wants to get it over with, deal or (allegedly increasingly) no deal.

If that were the case, why have the Lib Dems done so well when they're pretty much a single policy party who are determined to give the people an opportunity to have their say, based on the new context? Also, the independents - not all of them will be rabidly xenophobic leavers either - UKIP took a beating too.....
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22308 on: May 3, 2019, 02:51:07 PM »
Am not buying for a second the line that these results demonstrate the nation is fed up with Brexit and wants to get it over with, deal or (allegedly increasingly) no deal.

If that were the case, why have the Lib Dems done so well when they're pretty much a single policy party who are determined to give the people an opportunity to have their say, based on the new context? Also, the independents - not all of them will be rabidly xenophobic leavers either - UKIP took a beating too.....
Truth doesn't matter, though, does it? It's all about how the main voices can spin this. They have all been lying solidly for three years now, so it's not surprising that they can look us in the eye and tell galactic scale whoppers. It's all they know now.

And worse still, the public are so inured to the lies that they'll just shrug and believe them, instead of calling them out
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22310 on: May 3, 2019, 02:57:38 PM »
The truth is that the country is completely split on Brexit, and nothing will achieve a proper majority for either side.

The debate needs to shift from Leave or Remain to what type of country do we want to live in, do we want public services or privatisation, do we want a welfare state or charity. An then work out which political framework will get us there.

Of course, this will never happen.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22311 on: May 3, 2019, 03:05:04 PM »
So Leavers are doubling down on No Deal because their pride has been hurt? Why should that be the basis of policies and decisions that could ravage the whole country?

Leave voters don't seem to care about the damage to the country but they feel that they have now been heard. In terms of setting policies, it seems to me that Cameron decided on a policy of having a referendum in order to satisfy the minority far right ERG within his party - how deranged is that?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22312 on: May 3, 2019, 03:11:48 PM »
The truth is that the country is completely split on Brexit, and nothing will achieve a proper majority for either side.

The debate needs to shift from Leave or Remain to what type of country do we want to live in, do we want public services or privatisation, do we want a welfare state or charity. An then work out which political framework will get us there.

Of course, this will never happen.
Even if we said that it's 50/50 between Leave/Remain the leave vote is split into loads of factions. The biggest single majority is remain, imho, and I fully believe that a 2nd ref would prove that out.

Given how things have gone in the past when we started to debate big issues and the will of the people, if you give these twats in power an inch, they'll take a fucking mile. No point starting the debate until we have the right people leading this country.

Fuck off Brexit, get a centre left party at the helm (or Labour if they can fuck off Corbyn) and then we can start to talk about the big issues affecting this country and how to solve them.

Apols, this isn't really directed as you RB, more an indiscriminate rant ;D :wave
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22313 on: May 3, 2019, 03:16:09 PM »
It could be all unraveling for Remain. This is what happens when we are all forced to play with forces we can't control or understand.

But the Remain contingent have to stay strong and united. If a Brexit deal does happen, and is passed, Remain should not just dissipate. We need to keep the pressure up during all subsequent negotiations and decision making. And we need to dump on the Brexit parties in any and all future elections.

Despite my earlier defence of Labour, if they genuinely enable Brexit, then I don't think we have any choice but to kick the living crap out of them at the voting booth.

I have doubts about a new political reality emerging...but maybe we need to force it into being.

There's a lot of anger and despair in me so apologies if I'm talking shite

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22314 on: May 3, 2019, 05:18:53 PM »
;D
Hey Titi looks like someone wants to get a room with you :wave
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Offline Tepid T₂O

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22315 on: May 3, 2019, 05:35:49 PM »
It could be all unraveling for Remain. This is what happens when we are all forced to play with forces we can't control or understand.

But the Remain contingent have to stay strong and united. If a Brexit deal does happen, and is passed, Remain should not just dissipate. We need to keep the pressure up during all subsequent negotiations and decision making. And we need to dump on the Brexit parties in any and all future elections.

Despite my earlier defence of Labour, if they genuinely enable Brexit, then I don't think we have any choice but to kick the living crap out of them at the voting booth.

I have doubts about a new political reality emerging...but maybe we need to force it into being.

There's a lot of anger and despair in me so apologies if I'm talking shite


It will have been far too late by that point.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22316 on: May 3, 2019, 05:39:23 PM »
We're going to see a Labour leader whip his MPs to support the worst Tory government in living memory.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22317 on: May 3, 2019, 05:40:23 PM »
It could be all unraveling for Remain. This is what happens when we are all forced to play with forces we can't control or understand.

But the Remain contingent have to stay strong and united. If a Brexit deal does happen, and is passed, Remain should not just dissipate. We need to keep the pressure up during all subsequent negotiations and decision making. And we need to dump on the Brexit parties in any and all future elections.

Despite my earlier defence of Labour, if they genuinely enable Brexit, then I don't think we have any choice but to kick the living crap out of them at the voting booth.

I have doubts about a new political reality emerging...but maybe we need to force it into being.

There's a lot of anger and despair in me so apologies if I'm talking shite

The SNP in Scotland have shown that the hegemony of the 2 big parties can be broken, even under FPTP. It just needs a trigger - indyref in Scotland, albeit having the PR Scottish Parliament helped establish SNP as a party of governance admittedly - but Brexit could prove a similar trigger in the rest of the UK.

Offline Tepid T₂O

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22318 on: May 3, 2019, 05:45:07 PM »
The SNP in Scotland have shown that the hegemony of the 2 big parties can be broken, even under FPTP. It just needs a trigger - indyref in Scotland, albeit having the PR Scottish Parliament helped establish SNP as a party of governance admittedly - but Brexit could prove a similar trigger in the rest of the UK.
Nationalism is what broke the hegemony in Scotland.

I fear the same may happen in England.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22319 on: May 3, 2019, 05:48:07 PM »
Hey Titi looks like someone wants to get a room with you :wave

I assure you, I'm perfectly harmless, provided I've taken my tablets.  :D
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