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RAWK and Brexit

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Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 995725 times)

Offline Andy ⁎ Allerton

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Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« on: August 26, 2018, 05:19:00 PM »
Hi mods - is there a function to ban people from a specific thread?

Obviously we've got the same people talking about Corbyn and Tories and shite that have nothing to do with Brexit. A quick read through the last derailed thread will easily show them.

If they want to argue about whatever then that's fine - open a thread and do it there. Be good if we could just ban them from the thread and delete their posts though.



Anyway... STOP Talking about non-Brexit shite or it will obviously get closed again and I'm not sure anyone can be arsed re-opening it. It's the most important thing happening in peacetime for decades. Let's keep it civil and let's please keep it on topic.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 10:02:59 AM by 24/7 »
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Offline Andy ⁎ Allerton

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2018, 05:21:55 PM »
So this is the latest blinder by Rees-Mogg.

Have people inspected at Irish border after Brexit, says Rees-Mogg

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/26/have-people-inspected-at-irish-border-after-brexit-says-jacob-rees-mogg



Jacob Rees-Mogg has sparked a fresh row about the status of the Irish border after Brexit after a video emerged in which he suggests a return to checks “as we had during the Troubles”.

The Conservative MP is seen on the footage from the public meeting suggesting the government could “keep an eye on” the border.

“Ireland would not be a free for all. It would be perfectly possible to continue with historic arrangements to ensure that there wasn’t a great loophole in the way people can get into the UK, to leave us in as bad a position as we are already in,” Rees-Mogg says.

“There would be our ability, as we had during the Troubles, to have people inspected. It’s not a border that everyone has to go through every day, but of course for security reasons during the Troubles, we kept a very close eye on the border, to try and stop gun-running and things like that.”

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, was sharply critical of his comments. “This man knows nothing of Northern Ireland,” he said.

Ireland’s deputy prime minister, Simon Coveney, tweeted:


------------------------------------


Simon Coveney

@simoncoveney

It’s hard to believe that a senior politician is so ill informed about Ireland + the politics of the #Brexit Irish border issue that he could make comments like these. We have left “the troubles” behind us, through the sincere efforts of many, + we intend on keeping it that way.


------------------------------------

Rees-Mogg has previously been criticised for saying he did not need to visit Northern Ireland to understand the challenges Brexit posed for communities on the border.

His comments, earlier this year, were described as arrogant and judgmental by people living there. In an interview with BBC Northern Ireland, he said: “I don’t think my visiting the border is really going give me a fundamental insight into the border beyond what one can get by studying it.”

The Sinn Féin politician Mártín Ó Muilleoir, South Belfast MLA, said Rees-Mogg’s comments on the border after Brexit showed “contempt and complete disregard for the people of Ireland north and south, through the ridiculous suggestion of a ‘technological border’.

“Anyone labouring under the misapprehension that the Tories care a jot about the north is living in a fool’s paradise.”

The status of the Irish border remains one of the toughest sticking points in the UK’s negotiations on a withdrawal agreement with the EU.

Theresa May has said no UK prime minister could accept the EU’s proposal, for Northern Ireland effectively to remain in the customs union and the single market, with the rest of the UK outside – requiring a border in the Irish Sea.

The EU for its part regards Britain’s solution of a “facilitated customs arrangement”as unworkable.

The Cabinet Office minister, David Lidington, acknowledged on Friday that the October deadline once regarded as the end-date for the Brexit negotiations could now slip to November.



Tensions among senior Conservatives in cabinet were also exposed at the weekend, as the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, played down the significance of Treasury forecasts suggesting a no-deal Brexit would blow an £80bn hole in public finances.

“I’m always wary of any forecast, because most of them have been proved to be wrong,” he told the Sunday Times.

As May battles to complete a deal, Rees-Mogg is leading a vocal group of Conservative MPs calling on the party to “chuck Chequers”, the negotiating position painstakingly agreed by cabinet at their July awayday.

They are keen to play down the significance of avoiding a hard border in Ireland, which they believe has driven the logic of the push toward a softer Brexit.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson told MPs in his resignation speech, after he rejected the Chequers deal: “We allowed the question of the Northern Irish border, which had hitherto been assumed on all sides to be readily soluble, to become so politically charged as to dominate the debate.”
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Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 07:08:33 PM »
Am no expert on NI and am certain others can give a more informed opinion but wasn't the NI border during the troubles just looking for weapons?
This would be a customs border not a security border, we will always have security at our borders, we have that now, if we have good reason to inspect goods for drugs or weapons then we will do, nothing to do with customs so to be honest ive no idea what JRM is banging on about. maybe desperation I don't know but he won't get much support for this in Parliament. 
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2018, 07:25:53 PM »
Am no expert on NI and am certain others can give a more informed opinion but wasn't the NI border during the troubles just looking for weapons?
This would be a customs border not a security border, we will always have security at our borders, we have that now, if we have good reason to inspect goods for drugs or weapons then we will do, nothing to do with customs so to be honest ive no idea what JRM is banging on about. maybe desperation I don't know but he won't get much support for this in Parliament.


The border was a smugglers paradise,fuel being the main thing.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2018, 07:39:44 PM »

The border was a smugglers paradise,fuel being the main thing.
Was fuel supposed to be declared at designated border?
It's just the old image I have on the Irish Border, soldiers standing on roads.
Anyway, it's not about what the rules were pre 73+93 it's what the rules are now that matters. it will mean customs checks and JRM knows it but has no solutions.
Ray Bradshaw.

Stanley Johnson not wearing a mask is nowhere near as bad as Stanley Johnson not wearing a condom in 1963.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 07:51:51 PM »
Was fuel supposed to be declared at designated border?
It's just the old image I have on the Irish Border, soldiers standing on roads.
Anyway, it's not about what the rules were pre 73+93 it's what the rules are now that matters. it will mean customs checks and JRM knows it but has no solutions.


It is still a massive earner today.JRM doesn't care about Brexit,the worse it is for the country the more money that c*nt is due to earn,that is even more sickening when you realise that he is already the biggest earner in UK politics.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2018, 08:00:30 PM »

It is still a massive earner today.JRM doesn't care about Brexit,the worse it is for the country the more money that c*nt is due to earn,that is even more sickening when you realise that he is already the biggest earner in UK politics.
I would hope the 2 fingers up to Parliament leave voters would have worked this out by now, as you say the likes of Rees-Mogg are making a fortune out of a disastrous Brexit playing the markets. not to mention the tax hammering he will take if we stay in the EU, he's going to get a financially hiding in a few ways,no wonder he's so desperate. they reckon a lot of people voted leave to hurt MPs like JRM, they are making him even richer if they support leaving the EU.
Ray Bradshaw.

Stanley Johnson not wearing a mask is nowhere near as bad as Stanley Johnson not wearing a condom in 1963.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2018, 08:54:15 PM »
No-deal Brexit 'worse than thought' for science

Quote
The campaign group Scientists for EU has studied the Brexit technical notes released by the government on Thursday.

One of the documents states the UK would no longer be eligible for three of the EU's major funding programmes.

The analysis estimates that those streams of research cash provide up to 45% of the total of EU science funding coming Britain's way.

Quote
According to Dr Mike Galsworthy of Scientists for EU, a non-deal Brexit "would mean losing over half a billion a year in high value grants".

He explained: "No deal would wreck nearly half the funding we're eligible for, it would be absolutely devastating."

Dr Galsworthy also highlights a potential problem with British applications to the elements of the Horizon 2020 programme that will still be open to the UK.

One of the conditions is that the coordinator of any grant must be from an EU member state or from a developing country.

So far, British researchers have had an enviable track record of leading EU-funded science projects - this role may now be at risk and may affect the scale of cash secured here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45303280

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2018, 08:59:36 PM »
Grand National 'could be hit by no deal Brexit', warns racing group

Quote
Next year's Grand National could look very different if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the British Horseracing Authority warns.

Crashing out of the EU would potentially have a huge impact on Irish trainers and Irish horses.

And it could see the end of the Tripartite Agreement system which allows horses to be easily moved between the UK, France and Ireland.

Quote
Ross Hamilton from the BHA told Radio 5live's Wake Up To Money Business Of Sport: "If the position was that the UK government chose to immediately put up borders and tariffs then would make it extremely difficult for thoroughbreds to move.

"It would only be about a month ahead of the Grand National in 2019, which would be quite an impact, a threat to potential Irish horses' participation in the race, Irish jockeys being able to compete in races over here if it was a really hard, no-deal Brexit."
Preparations

He added that, in that position, the main issue for Irish trainers would be whether they were "comfortable" taking their horses over to the UK and being sure they get them back home again after the race.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45301966

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2018, 09:04:30 PM »
Galileo: Funding pledge for UK rival to EU sat-nav system

Quote
Funding for the UK's own satellite navigation system to rival the European Union's Galileo project is expected to be announced.

It comes after the UK was told it would not be able to access the EU-wide programme after Brexit next March.

At least £92m has been promised by the Treasury to plan for a UK system, a government official has told the BBC.

The UK has already spent 1.4bn euros (£1.2bn) on Galileo, Europe's answer to the US GPS system.

Costs for a UK-only sat-nav system are likely to run to several billion pounds.

A feasibility study to work out what a UK programme might look like would cost around £100m alone, according to the official.

Quote
If ministers give the go-ahead for the UK GPS system to be built, they will aim for costs to be in the region of what Britain had set aside as its contribution to Galileo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45314954

Another billion at least being pissed away on Brexit.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2018, 09:47:46 PM »
Looking at the history of British politics of the past hundred  years or so, and I'm inclined to believe that the period 1979-2010 was an aberration.  This notion of "strong government" and stability is a fallacy.  What we are experiencing right now is merely a return to form.  That 31 year period was a blip.

Brexit is everything this country deserves.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2018, 09:59:12 PM »
A lot of confusion by me anyway over the implications of not solving the NI border issue and the withdrawal agreement.
Excellent article below gives us the facts.

Will the Tories betray the DUP to avoid a no-deal Brexit?

Trust us, the British government says, as Dublin and Brussels wearily ask why they should. The Irish Government and European Union negotiators, accustomed to London failing to live up to its Brexit promises, have come to expect little but disappointment.

This week, when the British government published the first of its public guides to how to cope with a no-deal Brexit, proved no different. On Northern Ireland and the Border, on which the threat of a no-deal Brexit hangs, there was only the glib guidance that any business with concerns about cross-Border trade should contact the authorities in Dublin if the UK crashes out of the bloc next March.

This reflected hard Brexiteers’ long-standing claim that the UK has no intention of erecting infrastructure at the Border and it is therefore up to the EU and Ireland to do so, if they wish. It appears this is now official British government advice. Sure enough, John Redwood, the arch Eurosceptic Tory MP, said he was “very reassured” by the release of the papers by Dominic Raab, the new Brexit secretary.

May should have moved much further by now to compromise and secure a deal on the withdrawal agreement, including the backstop, by October
Their view is they are not going to put a border up,” one senior Irish Government figure said of London’s position. Meetings in Brussels last week on Irish issues are understood to have been fruitless, with little progress made.

It is not just in Dublin that Theresa May’s willingness to play chicken over the Border is causing concern. Robin Swann, the Ulster Unionist leader, spoke of the “economic importance of access to the UK’s internal market” while recognising “the extent of cross-Border trade with the Republic of Ireland”. The Alliance Party said it was farcical for the British government to suggest cross-Border businesses should contact Dublin for advice.
But the frustration is more acute in Dublin and Brussels; as they understood it, May should have moved much further by now to compromise and secure a deal on the withdrawal agreement – including the backstop – in time for the European Council meeting in October.

May’s Chequers plan, which envisaged the UK sharing a customs area with the EU and remaining aligned to the single market for goods, was expected to be the first phase of a shift towards a softer Brexit.
The European Union would not countenance Britain picking which parts of the single market it liked and discarding those it didn’t, but it gave May the time, space and encouraging noises she needed to see her through her own political difficulties.

Yet after losing Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, her first foreign secretary, David Davis, her first Brexit secretary, and a string of lower-ranking ministers in protest at the move towards a softer Brexit, May is probably wary of provoking further unrest in the Conservative Party. So the anticipated step forward from the UK after the Chequers White Paper was published, in July, has not materialised. “Chequers was to be phase one, to get to phase two,” a source said. Nor has the UK tabled any backstop proposals that the EU regards as a basis for negotiation.

The backstop commits both the European Union and United Kingdom to ensuring there is no hard border in Ireland even in the event of a no-deal Brexit, which the EU has interpreted as keeping Northern Ireland in the single market and customs union.

May and her confidence-and-supply partners in the Democratic Unionist Party reject this because it splits Northern Ireland from the rest the UK. A British proposal to apply the backstop across the UK, which would stay in the customs union and parts of the single market, was rejected by the EU.

    Dublin insists Brussels supports its demand for a backstop. London insists the backstop, as interpreted by the EU, is a nonstarter

Ideas to make the backstop more politically palatable to the UK and DUP, such as low-profile customs and regulatory checks on the British mainland, rather than at Larne or Belfast, are now being tossed around, albeit with the realisation that this would still be extremely difficult for London to accept.

Yet there is a view in Dublin that such a deal is doable if there is political will in London. But also an acknowledgment of just how big that “if” really is.

There is also an expectation that the mood music around the Brexit talks will get significantly worse before it gets better. May faces the Tory party conference in late September and early October, and little by way of meaningful negotiation is expected before then.

The initial October deadline for a deal on the withdrawal agreement has slipped into November, and may slip yet further.

Dublin insists that the remaining members of the EU support its position that without a backstop there will be no withdrawal agreement, which would cause a chaotic no-deal Brexit next March. London insists the backstop, as interpreted by the EU, is a nonstarter.

Earlier this year, as those who negotiated the Belfast Agreement gathered at Queen’s University Belfast to celebrate its 20th anniversary, Seamus Mallon, the former Northern Ireland deputy first minister, had a warning for the DUP.

He cautioned those luxuriating in their current status as kingmakers at Westminster, with an effective veto over May’s Brexit policy, that their new friends would eventually do the dirty on them.

For a no-deal scenario to be avoided Mallon will have to be proven right. Or the EU will have to do the dirty on Dublin.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/will-the-tories-betray-the-dup-to-avoid-a-no-deal-brexit-1.3606545
Ray Bradshaw.

Stanley Johnson not wearing a mask is nowhere near as bad as Stanley Johnson not wearing a condom in 1963.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2018, 02:11:07 AM »
I'm just about to start reading a book on the Northern Irish border and Brexit. It's intended to try and explain choices and consequences around the border issue, as well as things like citizenship and rights. One of the authors is a red and she's Senior Researcher in EU and International Law and Policy for the House of Commons library, as well as being an academic up at Newcastle. The authors have made the book available for free on Google Play: Horrendously long url link to it hidden here
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2018, 07:36:48 AM »
Just watched a segment on BBC Breakfast about EU funding in Wales and how the tourism has increased this summer due to the weather and how Rhyl has started to be reborn due to the EU funding, which has allowed money to be spent. Now they are worried that the resurgence will stop when the funding does.  YOU FUCKING VOTED LEAVE YOU STUPID c*nts - They can go fuck themselves.

Offline drmick

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2018, 11:27:03 AM »
Galileo: Funding pledge for UK rival to EU sat-nav system

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45314954

Another billion at least being pissed away on Brexit.

Haha- £92m set aside to help fund a system which will cost several billion.

It's as if they don't know what a billion is.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2018, 11:39:09 AM »
Literal shit everywhere you look. Mogg, Boris and his ilk should be publicly flogged. What are the machinations that keep pure evil like this in power? Should have been flushed years ago.

Quote
From “£350 million a week for the NHS” to “you can take a shit on the M11”.



https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1033650878182514688

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2018, 11:42:14 AM »
Just watched a segment on BBC Breakfast about EU funding in Wales and how the tourism has increased this summer due to the weather and how Rhyl has started to be reborn due to the EU funding, which has allowed money to be spent. Now they are worried that the resurgence will stop when the funding does.  YOU FUCKING VOTED LEAVE YOU STUPID c*nts - They can go fuck themselves.
Looking at what's happened over the last 2 yrs then I suppose there is a positive to Brexit assuming it doesn't happen.
Hopefully the British public are now learning who to point the finger of blame for the shitty way this country is run, it's not the EU, it's our politicians who are to blame.
The Tories are the ones who have run the country into the ground not the EU.
Hopefully people are now beginning to appreciate just how much good the EU have made to their area. hopefully all the years of media blaming the EU for everything are over.
Labour should be hammering this point when they do a U-turn.
Ray Bradshaw.

Stanley Johnson not wearing a mask is nowhere near as bad as Stanley Johnson not wearing a condom in 1963.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2018, 12:29:15 PM »
As I said before, we're going to have to experience the pain of leaving before people realise the true magnitude of the mistake.  Whilst we will be bent over when asking to rejoin it will prove better and less painful than this farce.
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Offline rob19:6 "And yeah doth the Lord liketh trucking."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2018, 12:46:03 PM »
Looking at what's happened over the last 2 yrs then I suppose there is a positive to Brexit assuming it doesn't happen.
Hopefully the British public are now learning who to point the finger of blame for the shitty way this country is run, it's not the EU, it's our politicians who are to blame.
The Tories are the ones who have run the country into the ground not the EU.
Hopefully people are now beginning to appreciate just how much good the EU have made to their area. hopefully all the years of media blaming the EU for everything are over.
Labour should be hammering this point when they do a U-turn.

Sadly, as Red Berry says, people will have to see the damage first. The day after the result, Cornwall were demanding the £65 million a year EU funding should be paid by the Government, Denbighshire voted Leave, even though the EU were fixing Rhyl up, Sunderland the same even though the EU etc etc. They voted leave even though they knew the EU were funding local regeneration. For some insane reason, these people believe the lies they are being told, that the money they are being told we will no longer send to the EU will instead be spent on them. They are utterly clueless in how much leaving is going to cost us and that the money is not there. Even if it was, do they really expect the Tories to give them it?? It is only when the EU funding stops and is not replaced and the Americans buy the NHS that the penny will drop, but even then, the rabid mob will find a way to blame the EU.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2018, 01:04:46 PM »
Sadly, as Red Berry says, people will have to see the damage first. The day after the result, Cornwall were demanding the £65 million a year EU funding should be paid by the Government, Denbighshire voted Leave, even though the EU were fixing Rhyl up, Sunderland the same even though the EU etc etc. They voted leave even though they knew the EU were funding local regeneration. For some insane reason, these people believe the lies they are being told, that the money they are being told we will no longer send to the EU will instead be spent on them. They are utterly clueless in how much leaving is going to cost us and that the money is not there. Even if it was, do they really expect the Tories to give them it?? It is only when the EU funding stops and is not replaced and the Americans buy the NHS that the penny will drop, but even then, the rabid mob will find a way to blame the EU.
If we could do something to solve the damage then I would agree, we won't be able to rejoin the EU till 2025/26 at the earliest even if we realize we've made a massive mistake in week 1.
It's the permanent damage that's done that concerns me, I am in no doubt about the country regretting Brexit if we leave, I think we all have a good idea on the s,, storm Brexit will bring and as say there is nothing we can do to solve these problems as this will all take years to sort out.
Project fear got it wrong all right, it underestimated the problems Brexit will bring.
We have to stop it from happening as Companies will go, services will go, they will not return when we rejoin.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 01:08:25 PM by oldfordie »
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2018, 02:19:30 PM »
even then, the rabid mob will find a way to blame the EU.
Undoubtedly.  There was I think some sort of City of Culture bidding process underway at the time of the Article 50 notice, and the UK candidates were quickly turfed out of that afterwards.  Needless to say, that was the EU’s fault too.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2018, 02:46:02 PM »
I seem to vaguely remember that, when Liverpool got Objective 1 funding, the Tory government tried to cut our money - until the EU stepped in and said, "No, this money is ON TOP OF, not INSTEAD OF, the funding you are putting in."

No Tory government will give money to these idiot regions who voted Leave, even if they have the money to give.  Have to keep that lot down south buttered up after all.

What is needed is for all major parties to unite and say, "we know you voted for this, but it's simply not deliverable.  it's political and economic suicide and we're not going to do it.  Deal with it," and just deal with the voter lashback in the polls. 

But they wont do that because they're all looking to take political advantage of whoever blinks first.  So we're basically going over the Brexit cliff for the sake of partisan politics - even though everybody in charge knows it's the most stupid gaffe since the First World War.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2018, 08:33:21 PM »
Sadly, as Red Berry says, people will have to see the damage first. The day after the result, Cornwall were demanding the £65 million a year EU funding should be paid by the Government, Denbighshire voted Leave, even though the EU were fixing Rhyl up, Sunderland the same even though the EU etc etc. They voted leave even though they knew the EU were funding local regeneration. For some insane reason, these people believe the lies they are being told, that the money they are being told we will no longer send to the EU will instead be spent on them. They are utterly clueless in how much leaving is going to cost us and that the money is not there. Even if it was, do they really expect the Tories to give them it?? It is only when the EU funding stops and is not replaced and the Americans buy the NHS that the penny will drop, but even then, the rabid mob will find a way to blame the EU.

But surely given the windfall from all of this money we wont be paying the EU can go to all these projects a bit like all that money for the NHS ;)
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »

What is needed is for all major parties to unite and say, "we know you voted for this, but it's simply not deliverable.  it's political and economic suicide and we're not going to do it.  Deal with it," and just deal with the voter lashback in the polls. 


This is UKIPs dream.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2018, 09:03:03 PM »
But surely given the windfall from all of this money we wont be paying the EU can go to all these projects a bit like all that money for the NHS ;)

No, no, no Geoff. You should know better.

The windfall will be needed for tax cuts to stimulate entrepreneurs. And we'll all live happily ever after.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2018, 09:10:40 PM »
As I said before, we're going to have to experience the pain of leaving before people realise the true magnitude of the mistake.  Whilst we will be bent over when asking to rejoin it will prove better and less painful than this farce.

I think it would be wise for people to accept that the UK will not be allowed back into the European Union. It would take evidence of a huge and persistent change of mind across the British population for the EU to even consider a re-application. I mean 80% or more clearly in favour of rejoining, consistently over a period of years. Probably the Tory party no longer in existence (or no chance of governing again) and a stable, centrist and globalist party in charge for several terms.

Brexit has caused a lot of unnecessary problems to the EU. They are not going to take the chance of this happening again. There's no convincing argument to take the abuser back. Over the next decade or more, Britain may well be operating in the WTO baseline, and having an almighty economic crisis. The country may well start making some trade deals and diplomatic arrangements that would have to be re-negotiated or scrapped in the event of a re-application. Britain's trustworthiness as a reliable and sober international partner is already in ruins. What chance any trade deal if the other country thinks they will be shafted by the UK begging to go back to the EU in a few years?

Britain has torn up all the cultural and economic arguments that made the EU want it as part of the project.

Once you're out, you are out. Brexit needs to be stopped now, because it is - in my view - irrevocable.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2018, 09:55:11 PM »
This is UKIPs dream.

Same could be said of any outcome here though, couldn't it? I mean, it's the position of half the Conservative parliamentary party and the bulk of the Labour front bench that whatever the government do they could do it 'better'.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2018, 10:00:30 PM »
This is UKIPs dream.

It's got to be done if Brexit is to be avoided.  Parties need to take the hit in the polls and have a unified plan on Europe when it comes to debate and elections.  It's the only way to effectively counter UKIP at the polls - basically taking it off the table as a political issue between themselves and uniting to hit UKIP hard.

Utter fantasy of course, never going to happen.  Brexit is happening.

As for being allowed back in, well give it five to ten years.  We'll probably be forced to join the Euro as well; which would effectively lock us in permanently, with no chance of pulling this kind of stunt again.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2018, 10:19:53 PM »
This is UKIPs dream.

We're in this fucking mess because politicians have run scared of UKIP instead of attacking them. Cameron put the referendum in the manifesto and Corbyn is using the leave voters in northern constituencies as an excuse for supporting Brexit.

Fuck UKIP.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2018, 11:40:56 PM »
Ive got a lot of respect for Burnham but he's wrong here. it's either a referendum on the final deal or MPs stopping Brexit dead.  if we are leaving the EU because we have to respect the referendum then the next argument will be respecting red lines. FOM, ECJ, Sovereignty, EU contributions. right to sign our own trade deals.
If Andy or whoever want to argue for a practical pragmatic bridge building Brexit then explain which Red lines we should drop to have a practical pragmatic Brexit and which we should stand firm on and tell us if the country will be able to trade competitively and efficiently. if we can't then it's not a practical or pragmatic Brexit just a crap deal.
 There is no bridge building Brexit, it's impossible. hard core leave voters will be crying treachery even if we leave the EU if any of the red lines are dropped and remain voters will be in uproar when the s.. hits the fan.
There is no practical pragmatic Brexit there are just choices. more red lines we keep more disastrous the Brexit.



Labour's Andy Burnham slams 'arrogant' second Brexit vote campaigners


The Greater Manchester Mayor and former Labour leadership contender said campaigners should be focusing on a "practical, bridge-building" exit from the European Union instead of pushing for a referendum on whatever deal the UK ends up striking with the EU.

He told Politico: "My frustration with those leaping to a second referendum is it further inflames this idea of an arrogant political class, which isn't listening and isn't dealing with the issues that gave rise to the referendum in the first place

"I've still been of the view that what we need is the most pragmatic, practical, bridge-building Brexit."

The intervention from the former Labour frontbencher came amid reports that the People's Vote campaign, which is calling for a second referendum, is targeting Labour members ahead of the party's annual conference next month in a bid to pressure the leadership into supporting a fresh vote
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/andy-burnham/news/97815/labours-andy-burnham-slams-arrogant

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2018, 09:31:40 AM »
Any suggestions there from Burnham on what a practical bridge-building Brexit is, or just the usual bullshit to try to appear to be listening to all sides.

Even if it the bridge building is something as relatively small as Customs Union membership, the majority of Leavers will still be screaming betrayal and Remainers won't exactly be thinking we've reached a sensible solution.

Sometimes you just have to lead, something which Burnham has appeared uncomfortable with from the moment he ran for the Labour leadership as the heavy favourite.

He doesn't even have the excuse that he represents a massively Leave area, Greater Manchester had a narrow Leave majority in the referendum and polling would point to that probably having disappeared since then.


Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2018, 09:57:32 AM »
I've used the 'shooting yourself in the face' analogy to describe Brexit in the past - it's incredibly damaging, completely avoidable and it's impossible to go back to the previous state once you've pulled the trigger. I wonder what the analogy for a 'practical bridge-building' shot in the face would be...

And the answer is there isn't one. Shooting yourself in the face means... you shoot yourself in the fucking face... It's a stupid fucking idea. When the choice is between a stupid fucking idea and a sensible idea you don't go halfway, because half a stupid fucking idea is still a stupid fucking idea.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2018, 10:42:31 AM »
Ive got a lot of respect for Burnham but he's wrong here. it's either a referendum on the final deal or MPs stopping Brexit dead.  if we are leaving the EU because we have to respect the referendum then the next argument will be respecting red lines. FOM, ECJ, Sovereignty, EU contributions. right to sign our own trade deals.
If Andy or whoever want to argue for a practical pragmatic bridge building Brexit then explain which Red lines we should drop to have a practical pragmatic Brexit and which we should stand firm on and tell us if the country will be able to trade competitively and efficiently. if we can't then it's not a practical or pragmatic Brexit just a crap deal.
 There is no bridge building Brexit, it's impossible. hard core leave voters will be crying treachery even if we leave the EU if any of the red lines are dropped and remain voters will be in uproar when the s.. hits the fan.
There is no practical pragmatic Brexit there are just choices. more red lines we keep more disastrous the Brexit.



Labour's Andy Burnham slams 'arrogant' second Brexit vote campaigners


The Greater Manchester Mayor and former Labour leadership contender said campaigners should be focusing on a "practical, bridge-building" exit from the European Union instead of pushing for a referendum on whatever deal the UK ends up striking with the EU.

He told Politico: "My frustration with those leaping to a second referendum is it further inflames this idea of an arrogant political class, which isn't listening and isn't dealing with the issues that gave rise to the referendum in the first place

"I've still been of the view that what we need is the most pragmatic, practical, bridge-building Brexit."

The intervention from the former Labour frontbencher came amid reports that the People's Vote campaign, which is calling for a second referendum, is targeting Labour members ahead of the party's annual conference next month in a bid to pressure the leadership into supporting a fresh vote
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/andy-burnham/news/97815/labours-andy-burnham-slams-arrogant



I was going to e-mail my MP, Kate Green, last week about Brexit (I'll do it later) but she was taking the same stance as Burnham and it pissed me off so much, I was too angry to be rational. I couldn't believe her stance, especially as her constituency has the World Freight Centre, a lot of haulage firms and warehouses such as Amazon and Adidas and Peel are planning a freight terminal on the Ship Canal.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2018, 11:22:54 AM »
I was going to e-mail my MP, Kate Green, last week about Brexit (I'll do it later) but she was taking the same stance as Burnham and it pissed me off so much, I was too angry to be rational. I couldn't believe her stance, especially as her constituency has the World Freight Centre, a lot of haulage firms and warehouses such as Amazon and Adidas and Peel are planning a freight terminal on the Ship Canal.
I wouldn't mind but the last thing many MPs who still support leaving want to talk about is the practical side of Brexit. ask them what we need to do to solve the problems Brexit will bring, ask them that question and and you will not get a straight pracitcal pragmatic answer because there is none.
2 yrs on and not 1 MP has faced a expert on trade negotiations, Frottage and JRM have both been challenged to sit face to face against somebody who knows what they are talking about. they won't do it.
If we do have another referendum then this has to happen, we cant go through the same farce we did during the last referendum campaign when leave MPs were allowed to make outrageous claims which were basally lies unchallenged.
Leave campaigners would crap themselves, they know their lies would be exposed, they know the experts would make them look like fools who haven't got a clue what they are talking about.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 11:27:00 AM by oldfordie »
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 01:10:58 PM »
I'm convinced that a second referendum would be a disaster.

Look what happened in the first referendum.

Maybe my views are coloured because I'm living in Essex, but nearly everyone here voted leave and I haven't met anyone who has changed their view in the slightest. People in general don't engage with the detail and when asked about it roll their eyes and say why don't they just get on with it. Even those few people who were unsure the first time round say this too.

Anyone who thinks these people will listen to carefully composed arguments about the difficulties of trade post-brexit is living in cloud cuckoo land. (Although maybe if Tommy Robinson came out for Remain he would swing a few people.)

I don't care what the polls say, a referendum on the final deal will just result in a no-deal Brexit with no time left to implement plans for it. Disaster.

The only hope is for our elected politicians to show genuine leadership and do what's best for this country in defiance of the electorate. Fat chance of that happening, I know.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2018, 02:20:46 PM »
The movement is happening far more in places like Sunderland, when they realised that their jobs may be at risk if they cut off the major employer in the region's export market.

Essex was always the home of the unthinking Thatcherites. The vocal bores are not the key voters though. A 2nd referendum on a concrete deal will have less unicorn shit than the first one. The first vote was won narrowly promising EFTA through to WTO. Leave will be vulnerable on specifics. The country will not vote for No Deal.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2018, 03:31:10 PM »
How has it got to a place where "No Deal" is an accepted phrase in Brexit matters? Britain said it's leaving. What sort of deal do you give someone who's leaving? On what planet did anyone think that there would be a "deal" for leaving an organisation?

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2018, 04:02:31 PM »
How has it got to a place where "No Deal" is an accepted phrase in Brexit matters? Britain said it's leaving. What sort of deal do you give someone who's leaving? On what planet did anyone think that there would be a "deal" for leaving an organisation?

"Yeah, I'm handing in my two weeks' notice, but after that's up, while I won't be working, I'm still gonna need that company car and the gym membership."
There were only ever two real possible outcomes.

No deal or ‘hard brexit’

That’s the truth that we’ve spent a year and a half pissing into the wind against.

Monumental stupidity.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:17:45 PM by Tepid T₂O »
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2018, 04:14:50 PM »
How has it got to a place where "No Deal" is an accepted phrase in Brexit matters? Britain said it's leaving. What sort of deal do you give someone who's leaving? On what planet did anyone think that there would be a "deal" for leaving an organisation?

"Yeah, I'm handing in my two weeks' notice, but after that's up, while I won't be working, I'm still gonna need that company car and the gym membership."

I think there are a lot of people who think 'No Deal' means we just carry on as before: a 'Deal' means rainbows and unicorns but 'No Deal' is the status quo.

Whereas 'Deal' means we are generally worse off but 'No Deal' is an absolute shit show.
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Offline SP

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2018, 04:38:00 PM »
When I can be arsed, I use the phrase "No Withdrawal Agreement" to be completely clear. Leaving with transition to WTO terms is a really poor deal, but it is not actively insane like leaving without a Withdrawal Agreement.

Even things like an aviation agreement to keep planes flying are dependent on persuading the EU to rush a deal, having just failed to reach agreement with them and stiffing them for £39bn. Is there anything to suggest the first thing the EU will say in the negotiation will not be "pay up"?

Even Patrick Minford, the only economist to suggest Brexit could make us richer describes no deal as a government dereliction of duty. When even Minford sees it, the game is up.