Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1018330 times)

Offline lobsterboy

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33040 on: November 5, 2019, 02:16:00 PM »

It's a scandal, but the compliant right-wing media has barely a mention of this.

We can but hope that a patriotic whistle-blower leaks the report.

We already know that corrupt Russian plutocrats with links to Putin have paid handsome cash 'donations' to buy influence with prominent Tory bigwigs.

And the funding of the Leave campaign has massive question marks over the origins of the donations, especially those made via diminutive shitstain Banks.

Plenty of the same money will have found its way into those media moguls pockets as well.
Handy for Putin having all these oligarchs ensconced in the west and able to dish out all this money to help his cause.
Its almost like the money all really belongs to him..

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33041 on: November 5, 2019, 03:41:33 PM »
It is.

But we've ended up where we've ended up, people voted for Brexit and in the 3 years in between its looking now like people are largely now fed up of it and are fatigued enough to just want it done for the most part.

So in light of that, I dont think Labour's stance to allow the people the final say on a deal vs remaining is really anything beyond the pale. Certainly no reason not to vote for them, it seems fair and it seems prudent (to me).

The problem is that even this wishy washy stance has basically been forced onto the labour leadership, despite around 80% of labour voters being in favour of remain, it certainly doesn't help matters that some labour spokespeople were even using the same talking point as the tories after the 2017 election i.e. 80% of people who voted, had voted for leave parties.


Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33042 on: November 5, 2019, 03:55:38 PM »
If the Tories win a majority then am afraid we are f... even if Corbyn +co go.
The damage will be done, leaving the EU with a nutty hard right Tory party. less talented MPs to hold them to account.

There is a fair argument to be made that we are already fucked due to the number of companies that have or are in the process of getting out of the UK, even if we somehow come back from the brink, we won't see most of them returning for a long time.

Beyond that, any form of brexit is going to inflict severe harm on the country, so while boris and his gang of fuckwits will trash the country, at least they might end up taking the blame, whereas drifting along into brexit with labour's imaginary brexit for jobs nonsense would harm the country almost as much in the short term and in the long run would see labour blamed for brexit rather than the bloody tories who would have all reaped their profits from it anyway.

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33043 on: November 5, 2019, 04:07:16 PM »
Let this sink in: The leader of Labour still hasn't formed a clear opinion on the most important political issue in decades.

That isn't the problem, he has clearly shown where his feelings lie on the subject by both his words and actions over the last few years, he simply doesn't want to admit to being a leaver when 80% of his party are in favour of remain.

to be honest, I'd have more respect for him if he just admitted that, but would work towards the wishes of his party over his own personal feelings on the matter.

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33044 on: November 5, 2019, 05:46:07 PM »
Let this sink in: The leader of Labour still hasn't formed a clear opinion on the most important political issue in decades.

Are people still pretending they don’t understand Labour’s Brexit policy?

Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33045 on: November 5, 2019, 05:49:24 PM »
Are people still pretending they don’t understand Labour’s Brexit policy?

Will they back Leave or Remain? Until they can answer that question I don't know how anyone can claim to understand Labour's Brexit policy.
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Offline eddymunster

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Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33046 on: November 5, 2019, 05:50:58 PM »
Will they back Leave or Remain? Until they can answer that question I don't know how anyone can claim to understand Labour's Brexit policy.

That quote also doesn’t refer to labours policy, It refers specifically to jeremy’s.
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33047 on: November 5, 2019, 05:53:16 PM »
Are people still pretending they don’t understand Labour’s Brexit policy?
Apparently. I actually think at this point in time Labour's Brexit plan is the most sensible and prudent one on offer. Anyone of any persuasion could justify voting for it, and it is also the most morally defensible as the public get the final say.
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect.

Offline filopastry

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33048 on: November 5, 2019, 06:01:57 PM »
Apparently. I actually think at this point in time Labour's Brexit plan is the most sensible and prudent one on offer. Anyone of any persuasion could justify voting for it, and it is also the most morally defensible as the public get the final say.

It still has 2 big issues as an actual election manifesto pledge though.

1. Maybe I have missed it, but I still haven't seen any clear guidance as to what the broad outline of Labour deal would look like (have Labour even decided this themselves yet?).

2. As others have said still no idea as to Labour's position in a second referendum of their deal v Remain, if Labour come out for their deal and the Tories push for Labour's Brexit on the basis that at least we will be out and they will rip it up when they get into power then I would say there is limited chance of Remain winning a second ref anyway.

Personally I don't care less about getting a second ref if it is likely something that can't be won by Remain, it was always a means to an end for me.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33049 on: November 5, 2019, 06:06:55 PM »
Part which niggles at me is the idea of a Labour government subcontracting to a Labour party special conference. All a bit 'NEC tries to run the country' which Labour PMs have tried to avoid in the past. I also am sceptical Labour will hold a referendum on a renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration if such a special conference approves it.

-----

No surprises but, yeah.

Quote
Downing Street has pulled an offer to let MPs vote on a fresh Brexit delay in the next stage of negotiations to stop a no-deal divorce at the end of 2020.

Prime Minister Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson's spokesman confirmed on Tuesday the government was going back on the pledge it made in late October.

That was offered by Justice Secretary Robert Buckland in a last-ditch bid to win support for the Brexit deal to allay concerns about talks on the future relationship.

....

Mr Johnson's spokesman confirmed the day before parliament shuts down before the 12 December general election no such vote would go ahead.

He said it was because the government was adamant it will have reached a trade deal by then.

"There will be a trade deal by the end of 2020," he added.

Mr Gauke said he had been made a "clear promise".

"Looks like the Conservative message is: 'We'll be out on WTO [World Trade Organisation] terms by 2021'. I have to say - that is reckless."

Sky News
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Offline eddymunster

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Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33050 on: November 5, 2019, 06:08:56 PM »
Apparently. I actually think at this point in time Labour's Brexit plan is the most sensible and prudent one on offer. Anyone of any persuasion could justify voting for it, and it is also the most morally defensible as the public get the final say.

The most morally justifiable is surely remain?

Illegally campaigned, advisory referendum, won by the narrowest of margins, 3 years on, no defined benefits of leaving and every brexit option clearly expected to damage economy and lead to more joblessness, homelessness and probable rise in mortality rate.

I’m sorry I just don’t know how any morally responsible politician can advocate anything other than remain.
« Last Edit: November 5, 2019, 06:10:54 PM by eddymunster »
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33051 on: November 5, 2019, 06:11:11 PM »
Apparently. I actually think at this point in time Labour's Brexit plan is the most sensible and prudent one on offer. Anyone of any persuasion could justify voting for it, and it is also the most morally defensible as the public get the final say.

If you're a Leaver you vote Tory or Brexit Party.

If you're for Remain why would you trust Labour? Corbyn wants Brexit and will campaign to Leave.

If you don't care either way why would you vote for prolonging the agony?

There's no guarantee that the EU will grant another extension or renegotiate a deal.
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Offline filopastry

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33052 on: November 5, 2019, 06:12:42 PM »
If you're a Leaver you vote Tory or Brexit Party.

If you're for Remain why would you trust Labour? Corbyn wants Brexit and will campaign to Leave.

If you don't care either way why would you vote for prolonging the agony?

There's no guarantee that the EU will grant another extension or renegotiate a deal.

Ireland certainly don't seem to be keen on any kind of renegotiation from their recent comments.


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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33053 on: November 5, 2019, 06:25:59 PM »
It still has 2 big issues as an actual election manifesto pledge though.

1. Maybe I have missed it, but I still haven't seen any clear guidance as to what the broad outline of Labour deal would look like (have Labour even decided this themselves yet?).

2. As others have said still no idea as to Labour's position in a second referendum of their deal v Remain, if Labour come out for their deal and the Tories push for Labour's Brexit on the basis that at least we will be out and they will rip it up when they get into power then I would say there is limited chance of Remain winning a second ref anyway.

Personally I don't care less about getting a second ref if it is likely something that can't be won by Remain, it was always a means to an end for me.
1 is basically a load of aspirational jobs jobs jobs mumbo jumbo - that's OK, you don't need to play to Marquess of Queensbury rules when your fighting Conor McGregor.

2 How can you say whether you back the deal until you know what it is. You don't go out to buy a car at all costs do you, you try and get the best deal you can and then decide if it's acceptable.

It's a dirty game and I hope I'm right in thinking Labour are playing a very dirty game because there is plenty of leeway, as I see it, for getting off the Brexit hook. I'm not saying this is necessarily Corbo's game, but I'd be surprised if the likes of Starmer, Benn etc don't have it in the back of their minds.
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Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33054 on: November 5, 2019, 06:32:52 PM »
2 How can you say whether you back the deal until you know what it is. You don't go out to buy a car at all costs do you, you try and get the best deal you can and then decide if it's acceptable.

It's a ludicrous position that Labour are putting themselves in though. The only way Corbyn ends up backing Remain is if they either can't secure a new agreement or if they admit that their own deal is shit. He's not going to spend months negotiating and then turn around and say his efforts were worthless.
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Offline Crumble

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33055 on: November 5, 2019, 06:38:23 PM »
It's a ludicrous position that Labour are putting themselves in though. The only way Corbyn ends up backing Remain is if they either can't secure a new agreement or if they admit that their own deal is shit. He's not going to spend months negotiating and then turn around and say his efforts were worthless.

If it came to it, I reckon 75% of the Labour party would argue for Remain in the referendum, the other 25% would argue for Brexit. Mr Corbyn would probably be in the 25%, "respecting the will of the people in the 2016 referendum" and all that.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33056 on: November 5, 2019, 06:40:40 PM »
If you're a Leaver you vote Tory or Brexit Party.

If you're for Remain why would you trust Labour? Corbyn wants Brexit and will campaign to Leave.

If you don't care either way why would you vote for prolonging the agony?

There's no guarantee that the EU will grant another extension or renegotiate a deal.
I don't actually disagree with anything you have said there, I was saying that anyone could justify voting for Labour's policy. For instance a conflicted ex-labour-voting leaver could justify to himself or his mates, voting labour on the grounds that they are pushing for a deal so he doesn't have to betray labour. Remainers of any persuasion (even tories) could 'respect public opinion' by not withdrawing article 50 until a second ref demands it, etc etc.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33057 on: November 5, 2019, 06:41:19 PM »
This is what Junker says about the labour policy

Quote

Jean-Claude Juncker says he doesn't think it’s realistic for Jeremy Corbyn to negotiate a new Brexit deal if Labour wins the election
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

With courage, nothing is impossible.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33058 on: November 5, 2019, 06:42:18 PM »
If it came to it, I reckon 75% of the Labour party would argue for Remain in the referendum, the other 25% would argue for Brexit. Mr Corbyn would probably be in the 25%, "respecting the will of the people in the 2016 referendum" and all that.
Thats how I see it.
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Offline Machae

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33059 on: November 5, 2019, 06:50:01 PM »
This is what Junker says about the labour policy


Well exactly, which is why Corbyn would be better minded to take the route of a 2nd referendum as their primary pledge, instead of muddying the waters and looking at revisiting a twice negotiated Brexit deal, which no-one is really going to entertain and further alienates the voters.

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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33060 on: November 5, 2019, 06:52:32 PM »
It's a ludicrous position that Labour are putting themselves in though. The only way Corbyn ends up backing Remain is if they either can't secure a new agreement or if they admit that their own deal is shit. He's not going to spend months negotiating and then turn around and say his efforts were worthless.

I don’t see why Corbyn/Lab re-negotiating a likelier softer Brexit, making a few concessions and putting it back to the people is controversial, they’ve already said they’d back Remain in a confirmatory public vote from what I gather.

The quandary seems to be that why would the EU give Labour a good deal if they are set on backing Remain.. but the same question can be levelled at the Tories negotiating a deal with the EU whilst threatening to leave with a big hard no deal Brexit come what may.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33061 on: November 5, 2019, 07:05:09 PM »
I don’t see why Corbyn/Lab re-negotiating a likelier softer Brexit, making a few concessions and putting it back to the people is controversial, they’ve already said they’d back Remain in a confirmatory public vote from what I gather.

The quandary seems to be that why would the EU give Labour a good deal if they are set on backing Remain.. but the same question can be levelled at the Tories negotiating a deal with the EU whilst threatening to leave with a big hard no deal Brexit come what may.

No.

In this interview on Sky on Sunday, Rebecca Long-Bailey refuses 3 times to rule out Labour backing leaving with the deal they hope to negotiate.

https://www.skygroup.sky/corporate/media-centre/articles/en-gb/Sophy-Ridge-on-Sunday-Rebecca-Long-Bailey

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33062 on: November 5, 2019, 07:15:03 PM »
I don’t see why Corbyn/Lab re-negotiating a likelier softer Brexit, making a few concessions and putting it back to the people is controversial, they’ve already said they’d back Remain in a confirmatory public vote from what I gather.

The quandary seems to be that why would the EU give Labour a good deal if they are set on backing Remain.. but the same question can be levelled at the Tories negotiating a deal with the EU whilst threatening to leave with a big hard no deal Brexit come what may.

Commonsense approach to me

Tories Brexit no matter how maintains division in the country for decades to come and they are working on a division of roughly at least 50-50 then probably 40-60 now at least.

Libdem Revoke,  again ignores the leavers point of view completely and maintains division in society for years if not decades to come, same figures as above

Labour lets try to find a deal and then offer it up to the people for the ultimate decision. That might just heal a great deal of the division in the UK and by doing both actions killing two birds with the same stone. Still giving the people the final word but on a deal and not some unicorn policies on the side of a bus:

If you remove the hardliners i would say about 60-70% of society just went with the flow and can easily be united with the right policies

Of course it is misrepresented in the media and by some in here who are keen to promote anything negative from Labour:

Anyway football now bye
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33063 on: November 6, 2019, 09:48:55 AM »
If you're a Leaver you vote Tory or Brexit Party.

If you're for Remain why would you trust Labour? Corbyn wants Brexit and will campaign to Leave.

If you don't care either way why would you vote for prolonging the agony?

There's no guarantee that the EU will grant another extension or renegotiate a deal.

There are plenty of Remainers who will vote Labour because they've been voting Labour since long before Brexit was ever an issue.

It's the typically Labour voting Leavers who could switch to Farrage that I'll never understand.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33064 on: November 6, 2019, 10:19:48 AM »
2 How can you say whether you back the deal until you know what it is. You don't go out to buy a car at all costs do you, you try and get the best deal you can and then decide if it's acceptable.

The analogy falls down because we already have a perfectly good car.

The Tories 'no-deal' scenario is basically - 'The family has insisted we sell the car so we'll dump our car in a lay-by, get the bus home in the hope we can get a better car from somewhere in the future...'

Johnson's deal: 'The family has insisted we sell the car so we will trade our car for a basic model with no extras...'

Labour deal: 'The family has insisted we sell the car so we'll trade in the car for worse model but with a few extras...'

Every option is worse than the one we already have.

The first thing to try is to tell the family not to be so fucking stupid. The second, if we are going to go through with it, is to say what the minimum requirements are. In the case of Brexit, Labour have already stated what the minimum requirements of the deal would be:

Labour's six tests:

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33065 on: November 6, 2019, 10:39:02 AM »
The analogy falls down because we already have a perfectly good car.

The Tories 'no-deal' scenario is basically - 'The family has insisted we sell the car so we'll dump our car in a lay-by, get the bus home in the hope we can get a better car from somewhere in the future...'

Johnson's deal: 'The family has insisted we sell the car so we will trade our car for a basic model with no extras...'

Labour deal: 'The family has insisted we sell the car so we'll trade in the car for worse model but with a few extras...'

Every option is worse than the one we already have.

The first thing to try is to tell the family not to be so fucking stupid. The second, if we are going to go through with it, is to say what the minimum requirements are. In the case of Brexit, Labour have already stated what the minimum requirements of the deal would be:

Labour's six tests:

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?


I largely agree with what you say but that is not the Labour deal. The Labour deal says that you can then decide if the shit deal is what you want, or you can keep the best deal of all. Thats a big difference. It's the best route out at the moment because the 'anti-democratic' route the Lib-Dems have chosen, would not make it go away, it would cause ructions.

There has been many a fuck-up along the way but (as I said) at this point in time, this seems to me to be the most logical way of trying to deal with the subject.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33066 on: November 6, 2019, 10:41:22 AM »
Stephen Bush on why the report into Russian influence on the referendum in 2016 has been shelved by the government.

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Good morning. Downing Street is under fire for delaying a report by Parliament's intelligence and security committee into alleged acts of espionage, interference and sabotage by the Russian government in elections - including the 2016 EU referendum and the 2017 election. Unlike most of Parliament's scrutiny committees, its members are appointed, not elected by MPs, and undergo security clearance in order to do their work - which remains classified until it is given the all clear by the security services.

This report has received the all-clear but has yet to receive Downing Street's, with Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson expected to sit on the report until after the election is resolved. Dominic Grieve, the departing chair of the committee, has released a strongly-worded statement criticising the government's inaction, and several former members of the security services have called on the report to be published.

What can possibly be in it to justify the delay? Several well-placed sources are of the view that the report cannot be particularly explosive, as the security services have signed it off with relative speed, and I'm told by several familiar with its contents that the actual report is not politically transformative. Bloomberg's Kitty Donaldson reports that neither Johnson nor his chief strategist Dominic Cummings are named in the report.

The reality, too, is that a detailed report is seldom, if ever, as damaging as a running story about a cover-up, which dominates the headlines at the expense of the Conservatives' preferred election messages.

So why hasn't it been published? MPs, civil servants, and Foreign Office officials think that it is a result of a personal animus towards Dominic Grieve, held particularly strongly by Cummings but a view that is shared by several others in Downing Street.

One reason why some Conservative MPs were pleased that Cummings would not be running the campaign, but that Isaac Levido would be doing so is that they thought it meant that the election battle would be less likely to be blown off course by Cummings' tendency to cross the street to pick a fight. But just because Downing Street's militant tendency isn't in control of the election campaign doesn't mean they can't complicate its path back to office.

(Source: his Morning Call e-mail)

Does seem to better fit what we'd expect that it will be vague warnings, see the US report I linked above, rather than specifics about individuals. Not that the vague warnings about relying so heavily on financial support from some of Putin's associates, whether via business or 'think tanks' or TV work, shouldn't be a concern even when generally applied.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33067 on: November 6, 2019, 11:37:46 AM »
I largely agree with what you say but that is not the Labour deal. The Labour deal says that you can then decide if the shit deal is what you want, or you can keep the best deal of all. Thats a big difference. It's the best route out at the moment because the 'anti-democratic' route the Lib-Dems have chosen, would not make it go away, it would cause ructions.

There has been many a fuck-up along the way but (as I said) at this point in time, this seems to me to be the most logical way of trying to deal with the subject.

As would Labour possibly offering a soft Brexit as their idea of a "credible" Leave option, which many Leavers would view as a Remain vs Remain/BRINO referendum.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33068 on: November 6, 2019, 11:57:26 AM »
As would Labour possibly offering a soft Brexit as their idea of a "credible" Leave option, which many Leavers would view as a Remain vs Remain/BRINO referendum.
That's a fair point, I don't think there is a perfect way of going about this - we are in a right fucking mess after all. A Labour BRINO will no doubt cause ructions amongst the swivel eyes but the vast bulk of leavers have probably had enough now, not being very politically minded, I would say, and may be glad to accept a soft Brexit, as it's a Brexit and can be claimed as some form of victory. Remainers can call it a BRINO and also claim some form of victory. I don't see any perfect solutions here, but Labour's could play out quite well, and it could actually take the heat out of it for the vast majority. The second referendum should settle it for once and for all. If we vote to remain and leavers say we should have another referendum, then have one.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33069 on: November 7, 2019, 05:52:22 PM »
Does anyone have Corbyn's comments on freedom of movement today? I had posted an article about it which suggested he'd made a huge shift to wanting it (ie staying in single market) but I deleted once I clocked it was a former S*n journo writing it.

Is the long march to 'soft' Brexit over for Labour or is it mischief making from non-commital noise? Can't see story elsewhere but news day is rather busy.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33070 on: November 7, 2019, 07:37:18 PM »
Does anyone have Corbyn's comments on freedom of movement today? I had posted an article about it which suggested he'd made a huge shift to wanting it (ie staying in single market) but I deleted once I clocked it was a former S*n journo writing it.

Is the long march to 'soft' Brexit over for Labour or is it mischief making from non-commital noise? Can't see story elsewhere but news day is rather busy.

I haven't yet found a transcipt of the comments, but I've found a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syq_xULTqxg

The freedom of movement question is asked around the 36:47 mark, and the answer is given around 42:10.

I personally don't view it as anything significant. He's still as vague about it as he was over 2 years ago IMO.

From an appearance on Marr in September 2017

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    AM: Okay. A large majority of your own members want free movement to continue. Do you agree with them?

    JC: I understand what they’re saying. I understand the point –

    AM: But do you agree with them?

    JC: Well, I understand the points they’re making and I understand the importance of workers moving from one place to the other. What I also understand is that there is an abuse of free movement by some employers who have grotesquely exploited some very low paid workers. That has to stop. But, we have to recognise that in the future we’re going to need people to work in Europe and people from Europe are going to need work here. There’s going to be a lot of movement.

    AM: You say that the Prime Minister’s not clear, you seem even less clear yourself as to whether most people after we leave the EU will have free access to this country or not. I understand the point about workers, but what about everybody else?

    JC: What, from outside of Europe?

    AM: No, inside Europe.

    JC: Well inside of Europe a lot of people are going to come and work here and a lot of people in Britain are going to work there. There has to be an agreement on it and how it’s achieved. Listen, go to any Airbus office, go to any Rolls Royce place, go to any of those places, there are engineers coming from Europe on a daily basis and going back. All of that happens all the time. You can’t stop that and you shouldn’t stop that

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/24091703.pdf

"There's going to be a lot of movement" is the FOM equivalent of the "single market access" soundbite. Even with a visa system, there can be a "lot of movement" but a visa system isn't FOM.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33071 on: November 7, 2019, 08:03:36 PM »
Bank split on rates as it warns Brexit deal would hit growth

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The Bank of England has warned that weak global growth and trade barriers created by the government's Brexit deal will hit the UK economy.

It came as two Bank policymakers called for an immediate interest rate cut to support growth.

The Bank voted 7-2 to keep interest rates on hold at 0.75%.

The Bank said the new EU withdrawal agreement struck by Prime Minister Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson had reduced the likelihood of a no-deal Brexit.

The Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) that sets interest rates said this would end some of the uncertainty facing businesses and households.

However, policymakers added that the transition to a new trade deal would introduce new customs checks and regulatory barriers.

The MPC said its assumption of a Canada-style "deep free-trade agreement" between the UK and EU would "raise administrative costs for firms" doing business with the continent.

Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, said the Brexit deal had created "the prospects for a pick-up in UK growth".

The Bank expects the annual pace of growth to rise from around 1% at the end of this year to more than 2% by the end of 2022.

Mr Carney said this would be helped by "a world that has stopped weakening and picks up a little bit".

He added: "three-quarters of that rise in growth is driven by domestic factors - the most important of which is a reduction in uncertainty driven by an orderly transition to a new Brexit arrangement."

However, the Bank's Monetary Policy Report said a weaker global economy and its new assumptions about Brexit would knock 1% off UK growth over the next three years compared with its forecast in August.

Policymakers believe the UK economy grew 0.4% in the three months to September this year, double their estimate in August, amid a recovery in the UK's dominant services sector.

However, growth in the final quarter of the year is expected to fall back to 0.2%.

Spending pledges by the government are expected to boost growth in the coming years.

The Bank also cited research that showed the current level of business investment is about 11% lower because of Brexit uncertainty.

For the first time, Bank policymakers changed their assumption about the UK's future trading relationship with the EU.

They had previously assumed an average of a range of Brexit outcomes that filter through to the economy over 15 years.

It now assumes the government will strike a free-trade agreement with Brussels that will keep goods tariffs at zero but introduce customs checks at the border.

With the transition period currently due to expire at the end of 2020, the drag on growth from new regulatory barriers will now be more immediate.

Policymakers said: "As a result, trade flows are likely to fall and some companies might exit the market."

Diverging regulations are also expected to hit a wide variety of sectors across the EU, from law to banking.

The Bank also suggested that trade deals with new partners would be years away, reflecting the fact that "it typically takes several years for new trade deals to be negotiated and implemented".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50333167

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33072 on: November 7, 2019, 08:16:54 PM »
Wetherspoon's lambasted for Brexit beermat campaign

Investors in UK pub chain JD Wetherspoon are being urged to reject the firm's annual report over its failure to clear pro-Brexit spending.

The call comes from influential shareholder group Pirc, which says the promotion broke company law.

It comes after Wetherspoon's spent nearly £95,000 on pro-Leave beermats, posters and booklets during the 2016 referendum campaign.

Pirc said such political expenditure required shareholders' backing.

Wetherspoon's chairman and founder, Tim Martin, is an outspoken supporter of Brexit and has even staged a nationwide tour to argue the case for the UK's departure from the EU.

Mr Martin owns 32% of the pub chain, with the rest mainly held by institutional investors.

Pirc quoted legal experts as saying Wetherspoon's could be in breach of the Companies Act because of its financial support for Brexit.

It called on shareholders to oppose the firm's financial statements at its next annual general meeting on 21 November.

The move would be largely symbolic but would put pressure on the company's board.

The pub chain said it had honoured its responsibilities by declaring its spending to the Electoral Commission. "We complied with this requirement," said Mr Martin.

But Pirc said: "Companies are also meant to declare annual political spending above £2,000 in their annual report, which JD Wetherspoon did not do."

It also quoted legal experts as saying that shareholder approval was necessary for activities "capable of being reasonably regarded as intended to influence voters in relation to any national or regional referendum".

Wetherspoon's disputes that interpretation, saying the law did not require it to seek investors' backing.

This is not the first time that Pirc, which describes itself as "the UK's leading independent research and advisory consultancy", has attempted to intervene in Wetherspoon's AGMs.

Last year, it recommended that Mr Martin should not be re-elected as chairman, but the attempt to oust him failed.

After Mr Martin, the biggest shareholder in Wetherspoon's is Threadneedle Asset Management, which holds just under 16%.

The BBC has approached Threadneedle for a comment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50329890

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33073 on: November 7, 2019, 10:17:50 PM »
Interestingly, Corbyn has come out and backed a continuation of freedom of movement after Brexit.

Given this, you may as well stay in the single market and the customs union....

This is the logical outcome
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33074 on: November 7, 2019, 10:19:31 PM »
Interestingly, Corbyn has come out and backed a continuation of freedom of movement after Brexit.

Given this, you may as well stay in the single market and the customs union....

This is the logical outcome

Source?

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33075 on: November 8, 2019, 03:57:23 AM »
I haven't yet found a transcipt of the comments, but I've found a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syq_xULTqxg

The freedom of movement question is asked around the 36:47 mark, and the answer is given around 42:10.

I personally don't view it as anything significant. He's still as vague about it as he was over 2 years ago IMO.

Thanks Shaka. Spot on, it's same as it's ever been. Thought it was odd which was why I checked who was writing the i-paper piece with the instant Tory rebuttal. Not sure the Tories wanting to portray Labour as being pro-single market has been particularly well thought through on their part.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33076 on: November 8, 2019, 11:58:36 AM »

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33077 on: November 8, 2019, 12:00:20 PM »
For something which still has to be ratified, by both sides, it's a bold approach to be promising you've no intention of honouring its details.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33078 on: November 10, 2019, 12:03:01 AM »
“Brexit's great irony is that it is a political union (the UK) protesting against another political union (the EU) on the grounds that such unions rob its constituent members of sovereignty.” - Waleed Aly in the SMH.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33079 on: November 11, 2019, 11:57:04 AM »
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NEW: Business Minister Kwasi Kwarteng says that the PM is right that there won't be checks or declarations between NI and GB as he "knows his deal". Asked if that means the Brexit Sec is wrong, he says that the PM is correct #ridge

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1193449698029379584

Quote
Went back to the Brexit Dept about this and they said the statement given to @lewis_goodall last week stands.

That said the WA and associated docs outline the policy.

Those docs say there WILL be declarations for NI to GB trade.

DEXEU says one thing & PM says another.

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1193513025761955845