Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 884234 times)

Online redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,690
    • Save Liverpool FC
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24360 on: August 15, 2019, 05:15:01 PM »
If Swinson was that power hungry, she would have put herself forward, which I don't think she has done.
As previous post, I don't think it's about being power hungry, but banking some goodwill and political advantage for the coming election. I think she's been slightly greedy in trying to take too much advantage, while depriving Labour of seeing any.
We Are Liverpool.

Online filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,271
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24361 on: August 15, 2019, 05:15:20 PM »
You also don't know how many Tories will posture around this to try and put Johnson under pressure.

I'm not sure that will work though, becasue my gut feeling is Johnson wants to be stopped so that he can have a GE where he will campaign to stand up for "the people" against all those filthy collaborating Remoaning elites in Parliament.

I still think he can consolidate a lot of the leave vote in that instance, as long as the rhetoric is insane enough a fair few of the Brexit voters will come home.

It's a somewhat bizarre time at present, where the leaders of the 2 main parties are in theory working towards distinct goals, but you suspect both would be quite happy to "lose" for electoral advantage in the next GE

Online Jiminy Cricket

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,414
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24362 on: August 15, 2019, 05:15:38 PM »
On the face of it, Swinson's position is quite clever - she isn't proposing she leads the GNU, so it looks selfless and collaborative.

But by starting with a strict - and very public - position on not working with Corbyn (one that many people, including Labour party members, may instinctively understand), she's put Labour in a very dodgy position. "We'll work with Labour, but not their leader". Fine, everyone understands several reasons why. But why should the Labour leadership accept that? How does Corbyn lead the party into a general election with any authority if he's just had to support Kenneth Clarke (or even worse, a senior Labour backbencher) as leader of a GNU? How can he be sold as any sort of 'leader' if he's had to back down to Jo Swinson and her two handfuls of MPs?

Swinson's position doesn't leave the Labour leadership anywhere to go; it's lose-lose. If you want someone to back down and compromise, you need to offer them some way to benefit, or to save face. Here, Swinson gets to play at collaborative, grown up politics, while Corbyn gets ridiculed and sidelined. I don't mind Corbyn being ridiculed and sidelined, but I don't expect him to go for it. I think Swinson has made a bit of an error. Not as clumsy an error as Lucas did a few days ago, but an error all the same.
You make a good point. Yes, Swinson probably should have not ruled out anyone but herself. And let the suggestion that Corbyn fall more naturally by the wayside.

Online filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,271
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24363 on: August 15, 2019, 05:17:44 PM »
I would agree with Lewis Goodall's brief summary on Jo Swinson!

Quote
Essentially, Swinson was wise not to appear too thrilled at the prospect of supporting Corbyn. But unwise to appear *that* unthrilled.
;)

Online redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,690
    • Save Liverpool FC
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24364 on: August 15, 2019, 05:18:36 PM »
I would agree with Lewis Goodall's brief summary on Jo Swinson!
 ;)
Yep. More concise than mine, too. :)
We Are Liverpool.

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,360
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24365 on: August 15, 2019, 05:22:37 PM »
But, if Corbyn is really pro-Brexit (he is), I don't think he'll accept being hemmed into a position where he might deliver the fatal blow. Imagine, for example, that he is required to revoke Article 50 in the event of no extension being forthcoming from the EU: do you think he'd actually 'revoke'!? If you agree that this would seem likely, then is not to be trusted. However, as I said before, if he is hard-line about wishing to be PM of a GoNU, that places everyone else in a very tough spot (given that he likely would have a tizzy).
True enough that he probably won't agree to revoke, and in that case, yes, there would be a big issue with him being leader - though again, he would be constrained as to what he can do by Parliament not allowing him to just do X or Y on a whim, and by them forcing him to agree to execute certain actions. But I can't see revocation being a condition of extension or anything. I mean I'd love it if the EU insisted on that, but they won't. It's probably not legal for them to interfere to that degree in a member state's Parliamentary processes.

They may insist on a paralysis-busting GE or referendum as a condition of extension, in which case I would expect Corbyn to go for a GE, although his letter seems to suggest a GE followed by a referendum with Remain as an option which, assuming there's no chicanery, is not the worst outcome

"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Offline Andy

  • short fingered vulgarian
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,089
  • Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24366 on: August 15, 2019, 05:25:40 PM »
It's all shocking. Don't you get it yet?

Will reply properly to the posts above when I get home, but just to say...

I totally, totally get that it is a fucking disaster. Morally, economically, politically, socially etc etc Brexit is an absolute shit show.

I don't just want to stop No Deal, I want to ram Brexit so hard down the throats of c*nts like Johnson, Gove,Frottage, Aaron Banks, that Wetherspoons prick, James Dyson, Cash, Francois et al.

It is a total fucking mess.

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,399
  • YNWA
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24367 on: August 15, 2019, 05:27:24 PM »
Sorry, maybe I am being thick but I don't follow your logic.

Labour will allow a No Deal Brexit to happen if Corbyn can't lead the unity government, but it is Swinson's fault for pointing out that he may not be the best person to unite everyone, and there are other candidates?

Yeah, that's exactly the same as the Lib Dems allowing no deal to happen by refusing to work with a Corbyn lead unity govt.

Difference being that like it or not there are levels to this sort of stuff. And Labour, Corbyn, like it or not is at the front of the queue.

Online filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,271
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24368 on: August 15, 2019, 05:36:29 PM »
True enough that he probably won't agree to revoke, and in that case, yes, there would be a big issue with him being leader - though again, he would be constrained as to what he can do by Parliament not allowing him to just do X or Y on a whim, and by them forcing him to agree to execute certain actions. But I can't see revocation being a condition of extension or anything. I mean I'd love it if the EU insisted on that, but they won't. It's probably not legal for them to interfere to that degree in a member state's Parliamentary processes.

They may insist on a paralysis-busting GE or referendum as a condition of extension, in which case I would expect Corbyn to go for a GE, although his letter seems to suggest a GE followed by a referendum with Remain as an option which, assuming there's no chicanery, is not the worst outcome



I agree, I don't think he would have much choice but to go for a GE, the whole GNU would be too unstable to survive as a government for long enough to deliver a referendum and as we already know there doesn't appear to be a majority for any Brexit outcome in this Parliament anyway

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24369 on: August 15, 2019, 05:45:39 PM »
Swinson's reply to Corbyn is fun.

Effectively, "Do you have at least 8 Tory MPs who'll say they'll vote for you? Cos I know 7 Opposition MPs who definitely won't even if every Lib Dem MP did. So shall we move on to discussing possible alternatives?"
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Circa1892

  • Real Madrid 0 - 1 Liverpool - Parc des Princes, 27th May 1981 Remember?... About as intimidating as Bambi.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,030
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24370 on: August 15, 2019, 06:04:51 PM »
Everything about the last day has been a dream for Johnson and Cummings.

Corbyns relentless unflinching devotion to a self centred election remains - running an election campaign promising a referendum is Suicide. The Lib Dem’s Dont have the parliamentary power they think they have and have shown it - and in Westminster all Nationalists have been relegated to a bit of a sideshow. Fucking home.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 48,455
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24371 on: August 15, 2019, 06:14:58 PM »
Just as a reminder why people suspect Corbyn's motives:

So what's the blinder that Jeremy is playing? What's his endgame vis a vis Europe?

For a start the Tories are tearing each other apart and he has keep Labour near enough united.

The endgame is forcing an Election and having a Labour brexit.

And if not a public vote that would tear the Tories apart even more.

There is only about 4 or 5 Labour MPs that want a hard Brexit all the others want a soft Brexit.

For years now Corbyn has been using Brexit as a political tool to get an election. The 'strategy' was to allow the Tories to fall apart and then swoop in and win an election, followed by a Labour Brexit. It's only now, a few weeks before we crash out, possibly with no Withdrawal Agreement in place that he has decided that he wants to be the hero and step in to lead a Government of National Unity.

The clue to a Government of National Unity is in the name. It has to be able to work across parties and the selection of the Prime Minister shouldn't follow the methodology that has resulted in the two main parties being led by two of the worst political leaders in modern history.

The ideal candidate needs qualities that Corbyn has shown time and time again that he simply does not possess.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Circa1892

  • Real Madrid 0 - 1 Liverpool - Parc des Princes, 27th May 1981 Remember?... About as intimidating as Bambi.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,030
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24372 on: August 15, 2019, 06:18:46 PM »
All the boring laying into Jo Swinson surely isn’t washing. Corbyn has never had the confidence of more than 10-20% of LABOUR MPs. Also, Milne has orchestrated a month of constant, deeply personal attacks on her from the WhatsApp group so why the fuck should she want to work with them?

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,360
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24373 on: August 15, 2019, 06:19:20 PM »
Swinson's reply to Corbyn is fun.

Effectively, "Do you have at least 8 Tory MPs who'll say they'll vote for you? Cos I know 7 Opposition MPs who definitely won't even if every Lib Dem MP did. So shall we move on to discussing possible alternatives?"
Sniping as a substitute for achieving something. She should be doing all she can to persuade those 8 Tories and those 7 Labour MPs to support and join a GoNU regardless of who the leader is.

Honestly, the identity of the leader is the least important thing for an emergency temporary collective that will exist for a few weeks, a political mayfly, and in which the leader will have no real powers and be all but a ceremonial role. Yet all these tedious morons, from all sides, are trying to make it the most important point, and the media, naturally, will lap that up and run with it as if it was the most important issue, not the least.

Dismal
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24374 on: August 15, 2019, 06:24:51 PM »
Sniping as a substitute for achieving something. She should be doing all she can to persuade those 8 Tories and those 7 Labour MPs to support and join a GoNU regardless of who the leader is.

Honestly, the identity of the leader is the least important thing for an emergency temporary collective that will exist for a few weeks, a political mayfly, and in which the leader will have no real powers and be all but a ceremonial role. Yet all these tedious morons, from all sides, are trying to make it the most important point, and the media, naturally, will lap that up and run with it as if it was the most important issue, not the least.

Dismal

I'd rate her chances of succeeding with eg. Ian Austin at somewhere below zero.

The idea of forming a temporary government of national unity purely to hold an election is farcical in itself (why not legislate first if an election is your desired outcome and you have a majority?) but it's fascinating watching everyone pinning their preferred tail to the unicorn.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Online TheShanklyGates

  • Firmly in the "shake it all about" camp
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,355
  • Outside The Shankly Gates...
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24375 on: August 15, 2019, 06:31:57 PM »
I'd rate her chances of succeeding with eg. Ian Austin at somewhere below zero.

The idea of forming a temporary government of national unity purely to hold an election is farcical in itself (why not legislate first if an election is your desired outcome and you have a majority?) but it's fascinating watching everyone pinning their preferred tail to the unicorn.

There might just be the numbers to prevent no deal in the current House of Commons. There isn't the numbers to do anything else. If there was a majority for a referendum or anything else for that matter then we wouldn't have got to this point.

Stopping no deal is all that can realistically be achieved without an election.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Online Tepid T₂O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 67,229
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24376 on: August 15, 2019, 06:41:14 PM »
Hmmm and people wonder why I don't respond to replies ............ The usual it's all Jeremys fault bullshit.
The problem isn’t whether he is or isn’t a twat.

The problem is that the vast majority of parliament thinks he is as do the vast majority of the electorate.  And that’s causing huge issues.

There’s a paradox though, if it’s a temporary deal, why not have Corbyn just to stop the utter disaster that a no deal brexit would be.

On the flip side, if Corbyn believes no deal to be so toxic, why wouldn’t he (and the others) just nominate someone of no standing in any party to do the job?

Can’t decide which side of the fence I fall in to be honest.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

With courage, nothing is impossible.

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24377 on: August 15, 2019, 06:46:14 PM »
There might just be the numbers to prevent no deal in the current House of Commons. There isn't the numbers to do anything else. If there was a majority for a referendum or anything else for that matter then we wouldn't have got to this point.

Stopping no deal is all that can realistically be achieved without an election.

Not a lot of this stops 'no deal' though, just potentially delays it for a few more months by asking the EU for an extension to hold an election. If there aren't the numbers to legislate to get to that outcome (ignoring obstacles for the moment) then how are there the numbers there to get to that very same place by bringing down the government and installing a brand new one?

The only upside to this is that it does normalise talk of emergency governments etc., and may put the wind up Johnson and friends that the opposition are, slowly, starting to get their shit sorted. And it may well come to needing it and thrashing things out now may give it a chance of succeeding. Still seems a desperation measure without much of any upside, even if Labour were to squeeze voters back as a result. Legislate and poison pill it for Johnson so he has to extend. That's the classy way to do it.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Online redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,690
    • Save Liverpool FC
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24378 on: August 15, 2019, 06:56:16 PM »
Lewis Goodall:

NEW: numbers looking even trickier, never mind for putting Corbyn in but for a motion of confidence itself. Chris Leslie tells me the five Change MPs might not vote against the govt in September.

"We'll have to make a judgement in the circumstances in September. But voting 'no conf' without the absolute certainty of an alt govt of national unity risks Parliament being dissolved after 14 days. Which would in turn allow Johnson to crash out without a no-deal on Oct 31st and nothing standing in his way. I think its probably best to keep Parliament active and ready to legislate to stop this craziness."


We Are Liverpool.

Online TheShanklyGates

  • Firmly in the "shake it all about" camp
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,355
  • Outside The Shankly Gates...
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24379 on: August 15, 2019, 06:58:19 PM »
Not a lot of this stops 'no deal' though, just potentially delays it for a few more months by asking the EU for an extension to hold an election. If there aren't the numbers to legislate to get to that outcome (ignoring obstacles for the moment) then how are there the numbers there to get to that very same place by bringing down the government and installing a brand new one?

The only upside to this is that it does normalise talk of emergency governments etc., and may put the wind up Johnson and friends that the opposition are, slowly, starting to get their shit sorted. And it may well come to needing it and thrashing things out now may give it a chance of succeeding. Still seems a desperation measure without much of any upside, even if Labour were to squeeze voters back as a result. Legislate and poison pill it for Johnson so he has to extend. That's the classy way to do it.

I should have clarified that I mean stopping no deal on the 31st of October. There isn't a majority to stop Brexit outright in this parliament but there may be a majority to get another extension. To stop Brexit outright you need to change the arithmetic which requires an election. Maybe we then end up with no deal anyway but at least we'd have one last chance to try and stop it at the ballot box.

And it was possible to force May into getting an extension because she was going to do it anyway. The Cooper-Letwin bill was only necessary because by that point nobody trusted her to keep her word. Johnson on the other hand would be much more belligerent to the point where legislating to force him to ask for an extension may not work. This is a good thread explaining some of the problems with that approach https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1162022412982075397.html?refreshed=yes If you cannot force Johnson into getting an extension then the only way to get one is the change the government.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,444
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24380 on: August 15, 2019, 07:05:24 PM »
So put the antisemite lightning rod in power because Labour moderates couldn't get their act together and kick him out before now? Yeah, no.

Parliament doesn't exist to wipe the arse of the constant mess that is the Labour Party. They should get their own house in order before having the gall to criticise anyone else.
Lets see how this plays out, Corbyn will be the one calling the VONC and he has the right to ask other MPs to back him as PM. the parties will meet and thrash something out hopefully, am sure some will say they can't back Corbyn as the leader of the National Government but they will back others inside the Labour party or any other party. the ball will be back in Corbyns court then, if he's not willing to give up his demand he may refuse to call the VONC, big mistake, I can see all the MPs who opposed Corbyn giving in under protest, they will hammer Corbyn in the election debates for putting his own interests before the countries.
We have to deal with realty, nobody is looking at it as a vote of confidence in Corbyn, it's a vote to stop a no deal. the fight against Labour party AS is important but it has nothing to do with stopping a no deal.
The government knew about the Coronavirus in January but were too busy arguing about whether or not Big Ben would fucking bong.

Online ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,682
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24381 on: August 15, 2019, 07:11:08 PM »
Getting "Jo Swinson is a Tory" (who's named a Labour MP she could support) trending is really showing who the grown ups are in the room, and that the priority is Brexit, not party divides.

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24382 on: August 15, 2019, 07:12:30 PM »
If you cannot force Johnson into getting an extension then the only way to get one is the change the government.

Snipping to this cos it's the important one given it's August and Parliament isn't sitting. The 'if' can be tried first, can't it? Was chatting about some of the problems with it last night with oldfordie, but as Peretz points out in his thread there, penalty clauses for failure can be made very politically costly for Johnson or mitigate the political fallout for a new government coming in.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,360
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24383 on: August 15, 2019, 07:17:49 PM »
I'd rate her chances of succeeding with eg. Ian Austin at somewhere below zero.

The idea of forming a temporary government of national unity purely to hold an election is farcical in itself (why not legislate first if an election is your desired outcome and you have a majority?) but it's fascinating watching everyone pinning their preferred tail to the unicorn.
Are you still saying this despite it being answered numerous times?

Once again: the goal of forming a GoNU is not "purely to secure an election", it's not to secure an election all, and I can't see why you keep saying this. The goal is to prevent a cliff edge crash out on Oct 31 which Johnson and his government have stated they will cause to happen. Maybe they are lying, maybe they are involved in some kind of brinkmanship, who knows? But they have stated that they will facilitate a No Deal crash out so that has to be taken seriously.

No one wants to form a GoNU to prevent a No Deal crash out. That is proper sledgehammer to crack a nut territory, and we all know it. Every sane person would rather that the government would stop such a calamity of its own accord, because it is run by sensible people. But that very government has bragged and crowed about its intention to allow No Deal to happen. So everyone else has little choice but to try and wield a sledgehammer , i.e a GoNU and all the hassle it will entail just to stop a No Deal, just to do something the government could do with a single breath.

And General Election shortly afterwards is NOT a goal of the GoNU - I mean it might be any given individuals' goal, such as Corbyn's, but not the goal of the collective. Rather a GE will be a consequence of the government being defeated in a VoNC, and there almost certainly being no majority for either revoke or referendum in the House. An unfortunate consequence, which almost certainly will not result in anything good for the Remain side, but that's where we are.
 
Not sure what you mean about the unicorns line. Do you think I'm gunning for an election? That that is my preference? Absolutely not. It'll be a horrible, belligerent, corrosive, destructive campaign followed either by a result that brings continued paralysis or a full on right wing coup.

My preference is to revoke the shit out of this right now and deal with the consequences after, right up to using the army to deal with fucking Yaxley Lennon and his thugs. But just because that's my preference doesn't mean it will happen, so I have to at least try and take a clear-headed look at what probably might happen, as substandard as that may well be
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24384 on: August 15, 2019, 07:24:45 PM »
Are you still saying this despite it being answered numerous times?

Yes. You think it makes sense, I think it's a nonsense desperation measure. I understand that.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,360
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24385 on: August 15, 2019, 07:25:45 PM »
Snipping to this cos it's the important one given it's August and Parliament isn't sitting. The 'if' can be tried first, can't it? Was chatting about some of the problems with it last night with oldfordie, but as Peretz points out in his thread there, penalty clauses for failure can be made very politically costly for Johnson or mitigate the political fallout for a new government coming in.
Here I agree with you. All the talk about VoNC and GoNU has been assuming that other attempts have failed. We're all being a bit premature in that, I agree.

Try and legislate for an extension, certainly. Try and legislate for a revocation while you are at it.
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,360
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24386 on: August 15, 2019, 07:26:59 PM »
Yes. You think it makes sense, I think it's a nonsense desperation measure. I understand that.
I don't think it makes sense. I think it's just what will likely happen, and why, if we get to the VoNC stage. I hope you can see that that is different
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24387 on: August 15, 2019, 07:30:40 PM »
I don't think it makes sense. I think it's what will likely happen if we get to the VoNC stage. I hope you can see that that is different

Still true.

Not saying it's probable, just that if MPs are going to all that trouble to bring down the government to avoid a specific outcome, and run the country for a couple of months before an election can be held, then throwing it all up in the air again immediately after they've got power would seem a remarkably bizarre thing to do. They cannot stop 'no deal' without revoking Article 50 or without finding a negotiated exit from the EU which will pass through Parliament. I do agree an election before 2022 would be the likely outcome - just saying that there's definitely going to be a period where you need to form a government and if MPs are going to be damned for a lamb, then they'll also be thinking they may as well be damned for a sheep.

Totally agree that a referendum is a huge stinking problem. But then so is the aftermath of an extension based on holding an election and hoping that the next government in will be able to pass the Withdrawal Agreement and/or legislation for a referendum by tweaking the political declaration before the timer runs out yet again.

edit: I want my unicorn to be stripey and have a purple mane btw.  ;)
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline nayia2002

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,259
    • http://www.victoriacreperie.co.uk/
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24388 on: August 15, 2019, 07:46:47 PM »
Cannot describe my hatred(always disliked them  :wanker)for the lib dems since that Tory loving bitch got elected party leader a few weeks ago  :wanker :no

You selfish 2 faced cow labour and Corbyn are HM official opposition party!
Not you and the spineless snake chukka umumma 
who are you to judge the life i live?
i know im not perfect-and i dont live to be,
but before you start pointing fingers make
sure your hands are clean!.

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,360
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24389 on: August 15, 2019, 07:56:08 PM »
Ok let me rephrase it this way. It's rather like the old footballing adage that you can't win the title in October but you can lose it.

Sort of similarly (but not exactly the same, I know, pedants) you can't 'win' against No Deal in October, as it can still happen later on, but  you can 'lose' if No Deal happens, irrevocably, on Oct 31.

That's why sensible and sane parliamentarians may well have to go to ridiculous lengths like a bad-tempered, ill-founded, unwanted GoNU, which will result inevitably in a GE that most of them don't want at this juncture, just to stop that No Deal happening on Oct 31, even though they know it could well still happen a few months later. It could be a huge waste of time, but they may have to try it anyway, if all other options are closed.

There's nothing good about the situation we are in.
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"

Online Tepid T₂O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 67,229
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24390 on: August 15, 2019, 07:59:51 PM »
Cannot describe my hatred(always disliked them  :wanker)for the lib dems since that Tory loving bitch got elected party leader a few weeks ago  :wanker :no

You selfish 2 faced cow labour and Corbyn are HM official opposition party!
Not you and the spineless snake chukka umumma 
Ok, devils advocate.

If Corbyn is that determined to stop a no deal Brexit, and given that people won’t work with him.... why wouldn’t he let someone more palatable (Harman?)  become interim PM to save the country?

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

With courage, nothing is impossible.

Offline nayia2002

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,259
    • http://www.victoriacreperie.co.uk/
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24391 on: August 15, 2019, 08:08:13 PM »
Ok, devils advocate.

If Corbyn is that determined to stop a no deal Brexit, and given that people won’t work with him.... why wouldn’t he let someone more palatable (Harman?)  become interim PM to save the country?



Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!
who are you to judge the life i live?
i know im not perfect-and i dont live to be,
but before you start pointing fingers make
sure your hands are clean!.

Online Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,148
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24392 on: August 15, 2019, 08:11:40 PM »
Ok let me rephrase it this way. It's rather like the old footballing adage that you can't win the title in October but you can lose it.

Sort of similarly (but not exactly the same, I know, pedants) you can't 'win' against No Deal in October, as it can still happen later on, but  you can 'lose' if No Deal happens, irrevocably, on Oct 31.

That's why sensible and sane parliamentarians may well have to go to ridiculous lengths like a bad-tempered, ill-founded, unwanted GoNU, which will result inevitably in a GE that most of them don't want at this juncture, just to stop that No Deal happening on Oct 31, even though they know it could well still happen a few months later. It could be a huge waste of time, but they may have to try it anyway, if all other options are closed.

There's nothing good about the situation we are in.

Can see that, can also see the attraction of packaging it as "And there won't be policies so we only need to worry about having an election". But, as with Lucas' ideas about holding a referendum, there has to be an acknowledgement that a temporary government (even self-limiting in time) is still going to have to run the country. It's still going to be making decisions, even during purdah.

Will put an extra £25 into Rawk's coffers should the following play out: government of national unity is formed, announcement is that this will be a limited government and has no intention of governing until 2022 and will hold an election at as early a date as possible. Its job is a caretaker one etc etc etc etc...  and will hold a general election in spring 2020 (I'd go for May 2020 but I think that's too long).

Don't think it's workable. Don't think it's going to be politically sane for anyone to sign up to that after, what, 5 months of relentless Johnson and Farage campaigning specifically geared to an election? As a last gasp measure, the noble sacrifice of political parties and careers on the bonfire of Brexit, yeah. Anyways, why I think it's so unlikely and unworkable in that form as much as any other. Least lingering on leaves room for other options before heading into an election. It's not like Tories who go for that will be standing for Parliament again either. Well, not as Tories, heh.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 08:13:30 PM by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline RobinHood

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24393 on: August 15, 2019, 08:15:47 PM »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!

The internal elections of the Labour Party are totally irrelevant to the Tories, Lib Dem’s, SNP and the others. It’s who has the support of Parliament that matters, and if Harman has and Corbyn hasn’t then it should be her any day of the week.

We all know he won’t step aside though as a temporary PM is the closest he’ll ever get. What a mess we’re in.

Online Riquende

  • Taking one for the team by giving one to a lucky mascot? Pix or stfu!!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
  • Klopptimist
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24394 on: August 15, 2019, 08:18:54 PM »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!

Lots of people in this hypothetical GoNU won't be Labour MPs and don't really care about that. I mean, I don't know. The PM and LotO (especially in a political environment so geared towards two massive parties) seem to me to be the two most divisive positions in Parliament and therefore at odds with the very concept of 'Unity'. I worry as well that Corbyn heading anything like this is going to be easily portrayed by the Tory machine as some sort of coup, leading to blowback at the GE. If I were Corbyn, I'd be happy to be well out of it (as long as I was assured a GE).

I'd agree that Corbyn entitled to ask the question and sound people out about commanding the confidence of the Commons, but if it becomes apparent that people won't get behind him then he needs to not just go off in a huff, taking the whole party with him.
Oh it comes to Divock Origi... he's won the European Cup for Liverpool! The man who cut down Barcelona has taken Tottenham down in Madrid! And it's dreamland worrying times for Liverpool Football Club. Shame really.

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,444
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24395 on: August 15, 2019, 08:36:52 PM »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!
He is the leader of the opposition and he has the right to try and form a government first. if he fails then others have the right to form a government. we all know the problem,  it's about appointing a leader acceptable to all MPs.
The government knew about the Coronavirus in January but were too busy arguing about whether or not Big Ben would fucking bong.

Online Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,643
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24396 on: August 15, 2019, 08:41:10 PM »
Getting "Jo Swinson is a Tory" (who's named a Labour MP she could support) trending is really showing who the grown ups are in the room, and that the priority is Brexit, not party divides.
all about winning twitter for those losers

Online Tepid T₂O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 67,229
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24397 on: August 15, 2019, 08:49:22 PM »
Whether  "we" like it or not he has won 2 leadership contests and he is the party leader which in my eyes gives him the right to be interim PM to stop a no deal Brexit and call a GE for the autumn!
That’s an answer to a different question...

Go back and answer my question...  I don’t know the answer too it, I don’t have an answer, I'm interested in what others think
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

With courage, nothing is impossible.

Online Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,643
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24398 on: August 15, 2019, 08:53:13 PM »
The internal elections of the Labour Party are totally irrelevant to the Tories, Lib Dem’s, SNP and the others. It’s who has the support of Parliament that matters, and if Harman has and Corbyn hasn’t then it should be her any day of the week.

We all know he won’t step aside though as a temporary PM is the closest he’ll ever get. What a mess we’re in.
corbyn doesn’t have the support of his MPs never mind other party MPs, who no doubt don’t want the prospect of the likes of Milne and Murray having the machinery of the state to play with even for a temporary arrangement

Offline Skeeve

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,439
Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24399 on: August 15, 2019, 09:01:48 PM »
The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

Of course Corbyn would be fine with no deal when he is a fecking brexiter and the idea of any remain alliance being happy with him being in charge is quite rightly laughable on those grounds regardless of opinion on other policies.