Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 883755 times)

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24320 on: August 15, 2019, 04:19:08 PM »
Ok fine, so after what 3 years of accusing Labour of brinkmanship playing politics and criticising Corbyn for not being pragmatic about Brexit, you're now happy for the Lib Dems to engage in a massive game of brinkmanship to remove the current leader of the opposition rather than to be pragmatic and prevent no deal in order for them to get someone they're more 'comfortable' working with?

Talk about consistently inconsistent.

Any time you try to get hypothetical you massively veer off base. You really struggle with it :D

You ignored the part of my message where I asked why you don't want a leader who shares your values. What's so wrong, from your perspective, with your party choosing someone more clearly and consistently anti no deal brexit to 'do a job' for the country (and rehabilitate Labour's image at the same time)? It's not about 'comfort' - and that's an irony from a current supporter of the labour leadership. It's about 'can we trust this person to do what he has promised'. I don't follow the Lib Dems but my guess is, as numerous people have said to you, they'd fall in line if it came down to it.

By the way the brinkmanship hasn't started yet, because Corbyn hasn't requested a vote of no confidence. Hopefully that changes first day back, but healthy scepticism going on his previous is understandable I'm sure

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24321 on: August 15, 2019, 04:19:32 PM »
Labour has many more seats, is the official opposition, and he is the leader of the opposition. You may regret the former, and we may both regret the latter (though I'm not sure you do; whatever would you complain about then?), but those are the facts. Even discounting the PLP's lack of support for Corbyn, he still has more genuine supporters in the house than Swinson has MPs.

This shouldn't really be terribly complicated, but the timing has worked out beautifully for Johnson. Can Corbyn command a majority in the house? No? Anyone else? But with a recess and no action, the opposition are busy talking themselves into hardened, conflicting positions that will be difficult to step back from.

Is that the best you've got?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24322 on: August 15, 2019, 04:21:11 PM »
Alex Wickham
‏Verified account @alexwickham

LibDem troubles...

Layla Moran not treading on Swinson’s toes today but told she is privately “much more on board” with a potential anti-no deal alliance with Corbyn and others

Allies say she is less tribal than Swinson and would deal with anyone opposing no deal...

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1162000845656993793

Good to see that there are some Lib Dems who have their priorities in order...

It's the Labour party's tribalness that is causing this problem.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24323 on: August 15, 2019, 04:26:16 PM »
Is that the best you've got?
I knew that bit would cause you to ignore the rest of the points. A pity, but confirms how you want to debate this.
It's the Labour party's tribalness that is causing this problem.
Labour is the opposition. It is seeking to form an alternative government. I'll absolutely argue for it to support a neutral candidate if that becomes necessary, but the Lib Dems are playing party politics here, too.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24324 on: August 15, 2019, 04:26:50 PM »
If you give it a few days I think you will clearly see the LibDem position morphing into reluctant support if he can make the numbers work, then asking that if he can't make the numbers work he should show the same flexibility in backing another candidate who can.

It helps that it is both true and the least damaging to them, as it gets in line with the Greens in putting more pressure on Corbyn to compromise if there isn't a majority for him to lead.

I actually think it is perfectly fair for Labour to get first dibs at forming a GNU, given the number of seats they have, just not convinced they can do it.

With the right leadership and full Labour support there is a majority for an anti no-deal GNU, I'm just not sure there is for anything beyond that.
Good post. Thread saved

As we've said before it's not really meaningful that a GoNU could not do much beyond preventing No Deal, because it's second task after avoiding the cliff edge will be to call a GE and dissolve itself.

It'll be more like a Select Committee, convened to undertake a couple of set tasks - than it will be a multifunctioning government.

Whether Corbyn is trustworthy or not is also irrelevant, as he will be heavily constrained in what he can do, with much of his remit pre-agreed before the GoNU is formed.

If the Lib Dems, or any other party, are indisposed by this and feel their supporters will mewl about it then tough; they'll just have to roll their sleeves up and explain to their support why they had to do what they did to save the nation. This is too critical a juncture to expect everything your own way and whether we like it or not Corbyn as the head of the Opposition and the second largest party, has clout and a certain primacy when the roles and positions are being allocated.

Whether you or I think he's a knob is neither here nor there

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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24325 on: August 15, 2019, 04:27:03 PM »
If you give it a few days I think you will clearly see the LibDem position morphing into reluctant support if he can make the numbers work, then asking that if he can't make the numbers work he should show the same flexibility in backing another candidate who can.

It helps that it is both true and the least damaging to them, as it gets in line with the Greens in putting more pressure on Corbyn to compromise if there isn't a majority for him to lead.

I actually think it is perfectly fair for Labour to get first dibs at forming a GNU, given the number of seats they have, just not convinced they can do it.

With the right leadership and full Labour support there is a majority for an anti no-deal GNU, I'm just not sure there is for anything beyond that.
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24326 on: August 15, 2019, 04:27:05 PM »
It's the Labour party's tribalness that is causing this problem.

You've made it pretty clear that you'd rather we exit the EU with no deal than see Corbyn become Prime Minister. That's fine, you're entitled to that view, but you can't then go pointing fingers when no deal happens. The Lib Dems are playing politics as well and will be just as much to blame as Corbyn's Labour if neither side is willing to budge and therefore the theoretical anti-no deal majority let Johnson get away with it.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24327 on: August 15, 2019, 04:29:11 PM »
Any time you try to get hypothetical you massively veer off base. You really struggle with it :D

You ignored the part of my message where I asked why you don't want a leader who shares your values. What's so wrong, from your perspective, with your party choosing someone more clearly and consistently anti no deal brexit to 'do a job' for the country (and rehabilitate Labour's image at the same time)? It's not about 'comfort' - and that's an irony from a current supporter of the labour leadership. It's about 'can we trust this person to do what he has promised'. I don't follow the Lib Dems but my guess is, as numerous people have said to you, they'd fall in line if it came down to it.

By the way the brinkmanship hasn't started yet, because Corbyn hasn't requested a vote of no confidence. Hopefully that changes first day back, but healthy scepticism going on his previous is understandable I'm sure

Corbyn is anti no deal though, so I fail to see what you're getting at. At no point has Corbyn or Labour endorsed a no deal exit.

The 'job' needing to be done is one that he's been consistently willing to do.
As such the point you're attempting to make is moot.

You're trying to muddy the waters by dragging the conversation to being anti-brexit because it suits an anti Corbyn viewpoint, but that's not what this is, it has no baring on this issue.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:32:53 PM by Cpt_Reina »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24328 on: August 15, 2019, 04:29:21 PM »
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.
I'd expect there to be a large rebellion against such a whip, though probably not large enough. Very likely the final straw for the formal split of the party, though.
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Online ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24329 on: August 15, 2019, 04:34:39 PM »
I knew that bit would cause you to ignore the rest of the points. A pity, but confirms how you want to debate this. Labour is the opposition. It is seeking to form an alternative government. I'll absolutely argue for it to support a neutral candidate if that becomes necessary, but the Lib Dems are playing party politics here, too.

You took a cheap dig and yet you're being condescending about how other "debate this"?

I didn't ignore your other points. I just didn't feel the need to respond because it generally covered the same ground as your previous ones. You think the Lib Dems and Labour are equally at fault here. I disagree and I think Swinson has adopted the correct stance. You don't.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24330 on: August 15, 2019, 04:35:23 PM »
Corbyn is anti no deal though, so I fail to see what you're getting at. At no point has Corbyn or Labour endorsed a no deal exit.

The 'job' needing to be done is one that he's been consistently willing to do.
As such the point you're attempting to make is moot.

You're trying to muddy the waters by dragging the conversation to being anti-brexit because it suits an anti Corbyn viewpoint, but that's not what this is, it has no baring on this issue this.
I can't pretend to know precisely what Corbyn thinks, but it's not news to point out that many people think he'd be reasonably happy with No Deal - and arguably, Labour's policy has contributed to the current situation where No Deal looks increasingly possible. Senior Labour figures acknowledged months ago that they didn't really have a problem with the Withdrawal Agreement; their issue was with the Political Declaration. Fundamentally Labour's policy has been about seeking a political outcome as damaging as possible for the Tory party, with some significant risks to that policy.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24331 on: August 15, 2019, 04:36:22 PM »
You took a cheap dig and yet you're being condescending about how other "debate this"?

I didn't ignore your other points. I just didn't feel the need to respond because it generally covered the same ground as your previous ones. You think the Lib Dems and Labour are equally at fault here. I disagree and I think Swinson has adopted the correct stance. You don't.


Cheap dig?

Does the antisemitism row just go away then? Are you all guilty of putting stopping a no deal Brexit over Jews?


That's a cheap dig.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24332 on: August 15, 2019, 04:38:00 PM »
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.

On the first point Corbyn  has at least already partially boxed himself in I think, I don't think he could realistically aim to do anything else with his brief time as PM.

If the leadership had half a brain it wouldn't try any funny business anyway, the win for them is just getting Corbyn in as PM. I don't think it is likely to be happen but if it does it is a big win for Corbyn, he eases his problems with the Remain vote, and he looks more statesmanlike just by being PM and not acting like a dick, it probbly makes the idea of Corbyn being PM a bit less scary to some of the voters who currently aren't exactly warming to him.

On the second point (Labour refusing to back any other candidate), as far as the Remain voting public is concerned, Labour bears some of the responsibility for what happens afterwards

From a purely tactical point of view I think it is difficult for the LibDems to demand flexiblity from Corbyn if it can be portrayed they haven't shown any flexibility themselves.


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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24333 on: August 15, 2019, 04:38:14 PM »
You've made it pretty clear that you'd rather we exit the EU with no deal than see Corbyn become Prime Minister. That's fine, you're entitled to that view, but you can't then go pointing fingers when no deal happens. The Lib Dems are playing politics as well and will be just as much to blame as Corbyn's Labour if neither side is willing to budge and therefore the theoretical anti-no deal majority let Johnson get away with it.

That's what I disagree with. Labour's stance is to demand support for one person only, who may well be leader of the opposition but has a lot of baggage. The Lib Dems are open to supporting a number of candidates, including from outside their party. I acknowledge that no deal may well happen if no agreement can be made but I completely disagree that the blame for that lies equally with the Lib Dems and Labour.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24334 on: August 15, 2019, 04:38:15 PM »
Fuck me, this thread is annoying.

Some people don't think Corbyn will be able to lead a unity government because he is too divisive (although apparently this means Lib Dems are playing politics with our future); other people think it is fine and even Tory rebels will unite behind him.

We'll see over the next few days (hopefully!). Only nutcases in the Tory party think No Deal is a good idea, or even a good negotiating tactic. Either the Tory rebels will say they are happy with Corbyn at the helm of a unity government, at which point the Lib Dems will fall inline and support him too, or the Tory rebels will refuse and we'll have to find someone else as has been suggested.


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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24335 on: August 15, 2019, 04:41:14 PM »
Cheap dig?

That's a cheap dig.

Even if you view it as such (I don't, I think it's a valid point and I think LAAS would agree with me), it does not mean your "whatever would you complain about then" comment was not one too.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24336 on: August 15, 2019, 04:42:03 PM »
If the leadership had half a brain it wouldn't try any funny business anyway, the win for them is just getting Corbyn in as PM. I don't think it is likely to be happen but if it does it is a big win for Corbyn, he eases his problems with the Remain vote, and he looks more statesmanlike just by being PM and not acting like a dick, it probbly makes the idea of Corbyn being PM a bit less scary to some of the voters who currently aren't exactly warming to him.
There shouldn't be any surprise given that it's Corbyn (+Milne, Murrary, McCluskey, McDonnell), but Labour may have been better served putting Lucas forward as the unity PM, before she suggested the all-women government of partial unity. She's well liked by most of his base, it would have come across quite well and been difficult for the Libs/Tory rebels to oppose.
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24337 on: August 15, 2019, 04:43:43 PM »
I can't pretend to know precisely what Corbyn thinks, but it's not news to point out that many people think he'd be reasonably happy with No Deal - and arguably, Labour's policy has contributed to the current situation where No Deal looks increasingly possible. Senior Labour figures acknowledged months ago that they didn't really have a problem with the Withdrawal Agreement; their issue was with the Political Declaration. Fundamentally Labour's policy has been about seeking a political outcome as damaging as possible for the Tory party, with some significant risks to that policy.



This is a much better explanation than I'd have managed. My point was that there are potentially those in parliament who hold the view that Corbyn wouldn't hate a no-deal brexit. And that that scepticism wouldn't be irrational

To the paranoid suggestion I'm...
.. trying to muddy the waters by dragging the conversation to being anti-brexit because it suits an anti Corbyn viewpoint
is just strange. I 'drag the conversation' to being about brexit is because even if this current no deal deadline is averted there will be another in the future. Brexit matters more than corbyn. And that a leader who has talked about trying to make a better Labour withdrawal agreement being buoyed for a short term fix is a risk (small or otherwise) to those like me who don't want to leave the EU.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:48:22 PM by Classycara »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24338 on: August 15, 2019, 04:44:00 PM »
I can't pretend to know precisely what Corbyn thinks, but it's not news to point out that many people think he'd be reasonably happy with No Deal - and arguably, Labour's policy has contributed to the current situation where No Deal looks increasingly possible. Senior Labour figures acknowledged months ago that they didn't really have a problem with the Withdrawal Agreement; their issue was with the Political Declaration. Fundamentally Labour's policy has been about seeking a political outcome as damaging as possible for the Tory party, with some significant risks to that policy.

I mean Corbyn has sought to come to the table multiple times now to either deliver the least damaging Brexit possible and honour the referendum result (sacrilege in this thread I know) or to avoid a no deal exit.

If people still want to believe he's doing it all for show or doesn't really believe it then what more can he do really, he could come out and support a second referendum and back remain (again) and people would still believe his wasnt truly behind it because they simply don't like the man, his politics or both.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24339 on: August 15, 2019, 04:44:05 PM »
On the first point Corbyn  has at least already partially boxed himself in I think, I don't think he could realistically aim to do anything else with his brief time as PM.

If the leadership had half a brain it wouldn't try any funny business anyway, the win for them is just getting Corbyn in as PM. I don't think it is likely to be happen but if it does it is a big win for Corbyn, he eases his problems with the Remain vote, and he looks more statesmanlike just by being PM and not acting like a dick, it probbly makes the idea of Corbyn being PM a bit less scary to some of the voters who currently aren't exactly warming to him.

On the second point (Labour refusing to back any other candidate), as far as the Remain voting public is concerned, Labour bears some of the responsibility for what happens afterwards

From a purely tactical point of view I think it is difficult for the LibDems to demand flexiblity from Corbyn if it can be portrayed they haven't shown any flexibility themselves.

They've suggested both a Tory and a Labour MP as a potential PM. That's flexibility.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24340 on: August 15, 2019, 04:44:17 PM »
Corbyn is anti no deal though, so I fail to see what you're getting at. At no point has Corbyn or Labour endorsed a no deal exit.

The 'job' needing to be done is one that he's been consistently willing to do.
As such the point you're attempting to make is moot.

You're trying to muddy the waters by dragging the conversation to being anti-brexit because it suits an anti Corbyn viewpoint, but that's not what this is, it has no baring on this issue.

For what its worth I think Corbyn is both publicly anti no-deal and also privately positively enthusiastic at the prospect of fighting an election after the Tories have delivered it, I would think the belief inside Labour is that their best chance of winning an election is to be seen to have opposed a no-deal while not being able to stop it being delivered.

That would allow them to campaign on reopening negotiations with the EU on a deal, in that scenario the LDs have lost "Remain" as an option and "Rejoin" is less compelling as it is time consuming, difficult and a worse deal than we previously had, so it stops them differentiating themselves easily from Labour on Brexit. Labour can then claim to be representing both soft Brexiters and Remainers with their compromise deal, it basically neutralises "Brexit", one of their big 2 weaknesses (leadership clearly being the other)

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24341 on: August 15, 2019, 04:44:55 PM »
That's what I disagree with. Labour's stance is to demand support for one person only, who may well be leader of the opposition but has a lot of baggage. The Lib Dems are open to supporting a number of candidates, including from outside their party. I acknowledge that no deal may well happen if no agreement can be made but I completely disagree that the blame for that lies equally with the Lib Dems and Labour.

I want all parties opposed to no deal to show that they understand just how serious this is, stop playing politics and put stopping it above any other consideration. If they can't, or won't, then no deal happens at which point we'll be fucked and I couldn't care less whose fault it is, it will be a total failure across the board. 
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24342 on: August 15, 2019, 04:45:46 PM »
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.
I think your first point has some merit; Corbyn probably will expect to lead any GoNU and will not look with favour upon any suggestion that someone else does it.

He'll have clear tactical reasons for doing so - to allow himself to be overlooked as leader, while being the Leader of the Opposition, will send an almost fatal message to the world that he cannot be Prime Minister after a GE, and thus derail any GE campaign before it has started.

Can you imagine the mockery and abuse Labour would get in a post-GoNU GE campaign about their leader not even being seen as capable of leading a temporary GoNU, so how can people trust him as a potential permanent PM? In fact this goes beyond Corbyn to apply to any Labour leader, even of Corbyn were to be replaced.

So in that regard Corbyn and Labour would have very good grounds for expecting to lead any GoNU.

The latter point, that he will not allow himself to be constrained by strict criteria as to what is expected of him, I don't really think is true. He will see his desired GE tantalisingly within his grasp, and with Wormtongue whispering in his ears, he will back himself to win it. So consequently I think he'd be content to take on a temporary restricted role as a constrained Leader of a temporary government, in order to actualise what he sees as his chance of becoming permanent Prime Minister.

Just the fact that he has done the role, in however restricted a form, and 'saved the nation from a disastrous NO Deal' will confer a veneer of legitimacy on him and oil the wheels, making it that little bit more likely that he might finally get over the line in a GE. At least in his eyes.

The only thing preventing the above view, IMO, is if the old accusation that he doesn't really want to be power, just perpetual opposition, turns out to be true.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24343 on: August 15, 2019, 04:46:54 PM »
Even if you view it as such (I don't, I think it's a valid point and I think LAAS would agree with me), it does not mean your "whatever would you complain about then" comment was not one too.
Who are LAAS, by the way? Tried looking them up earlier, but it seemed a bit vague. The 'official' Jewish body within the party is the JLM. Just as the JVL brings forward a small number of hard lefties who happen to be Jewish to claim Corbyn is absolutely fine, I'm not sure it's helpful for another group from the other side of the divide to be exaggerating the 'threat' of Corbyn living in Downing Street (but without usual PM 'power') for a few weeks.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24344 on: August 15, 2019, 04:47:46 PM »
They've suggested both a Tory and a Labour MP as a potential PM. That's flexibility.

I agree but not being willing to back Corbyn when he is most likely to bring Labour MPs in en masse, will still be portrayed as intransigence putting us at increased risk of a no-deal. If nothing else it muddies the waters on Brexit which is currently the LDs best issue to campaign on.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24345 on: August 15, 2019, 04:49:42 PM »
back Corbyn when he is most likely to bring Labour MPs in en masse

You think Labour MPs won't back a unity government to stop No Deal if Corbyn isn't in charge?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24346 on: August 15, 2019, 04:52:06 PM »
You think Labour MPs won't back a unity government to stop No Deal if Corbyn isn't in charge?

I think a fair proportion of the front bench won't unless told to by the leadership

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24347 on: August 15, 2019, 04:53:30 PM »
I think a fair proportion of the front bench won't unless told to by the leadership

...and allow a No Deal Brexit??

That is pretty shocking. Equally as bad as the Lib Dems not backing Corbyn?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24348 on: August 15, 2019, 04:55:58 PM »
You think Labour MPs won't back a unity government to stop No Deal if Corbyn isn't in charge?
There's a big risk that many won't, for the reasons I gave earlier. Labour are HM Oppostion, the official Opposition, if you like. If they are not the lead in any post VoNC temporary GoNU then their legitimacy will be severely undermined, even if Corbyn were replaced as leader.

HM Opposition, whomever they are, will always see it as their natural role to lead any charge against the Government, and expect their leader to be its leader. This is basic stuff
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24349 on: August 15, 2019, 04:56:19 PM »
...and allow a No Deal Brexit??

That is pretty shocking. Equally as bad as the Lib Dems not backing Corbyn?

Its exactly the fucking same, yes.

Which is why its such pointless grandstanding by Swinson because instead of accepting the olive branch the conversation has now become 'yeah...but'.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24350 on: August 15, 2019, 04:59:36 PM »
HM Opposition, whomever they are, will always see it as their natural role to lead any charge against the Government, and expect their leader to be its leader. This is basic stuff

And yet it is a pretty unique situation.

We'll have to see whether the Tories and other MPs think they can unite behind him.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24351 on: August 15, 2019, 05:00:15 PM »
You think Labour MPs won't back a unity government to stop No Deal if Corbyn isn't in charge?
It's sort of the wrong question. Labour are the opposition. Corbyn is the leader of the Labour party. Officially at least, Corbyn is opposed to No Deal.

Why do the Lib Dems get to say whether he can lead a GNU or not? - and, by the way, doing so by saying 'Tory rebels won't support him'. That's kind of up to the Tory rebels; some of whom have now said they're happy to meet with him to discuss it. If Swinson won't work with Corbyn to stop No Deal, fine. Just say so.Of course she already did, but it didn't really 'stick', she didn't get the swell of agreement she expected from other parties, and is now trying to gather that opposition-to-the-opposition.

Nearly everyone is still playing party politics. I'm not going to scream about putting 'party over country', because that's what politics is about and at some level all politicians genuinely believe that the success of their party is in the best interests of the country. But the Lib Dems wish to be seen as honest brokers willing to work with other parties doesn't instantly give them the authority to decide who in those parties they get to work with. They have to start with the leader. If he proves to be an untrustworthy twat who isn't working openly and sincerely to stop No Deal, fine, then you look for alternatives.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24352 on: August 15, 2019, 05:01:45 PM »
But the Lib Dems wish to be seen as honest brokers willing to work with other parties doesn't instantly give them the authority to decide who in those parties they get to work with. They have to start with the leader. If he proves to be an untrustworthy twat who isn't working openly and sincerely to stop No Deal, fine, then you look for alternatives.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24353 on: August 15, 2019, 05:02:02 PM »
Its exactly the fucking same, yes.

Which is why its such pointless grandstanding by Swinson because instead of accepting the olive branch the conversation has now become 'yeah...but'.

Sorry, maybe I am being thick but I don't follow your logic.

Labour will allow a No Deal Brexit to happen if Corbyn can't lead the unity government, but it is Swinson's fault for pointing out that he may not be the best person to unite everyone, and there are other candidates?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24354 on: August 15, 2019, 05:02:53 PM »
BBC Politics
‏Verified account @BBCPolitics

"A short-term Jeremy Corbyn government is less damaging than the generational damage that would be caused by a no-deal Brexit"

Conservative Guto Bebb says MPs opposed to leaving the EU without a deal must take the Labour leader's #Brexit plan seriously

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1162019203517308935

Whether his view is shared by other Tory MPs remains to be seen but we need more politicians who are willing to put country over party.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24355 on: August 15, 2019, 05:04:10 PM »
The latter point, that he will not allow himself to be constrained by strict criteria as to what is expected of him, I don't really think is true. He will see his desired GE tantalisingly within his grasp, and with Wormtongue whispering in his ears, he will back himself to win it. So consequently I think he'd be content to take on a temporary restricted role as a constrained Leader of a temporary government, in order to actualise what he sees as his chance of becoming permanent Prime Minister.

Just the fact that he has done the role, in however restricted a form, and 'saved the nation from a disastrous NO Deal' will confer a veneer of legitimacy on him and oil the wheels, making it that little bit more likely that he might finally get over the line in a GE. At least in his eyes.

The only thing preventing the above view, IMO, is if the old accusation that he doesn't really want to be power, just perpetual opposition, turns out to be true.
But, if Corbyn is really pro-Brexit (he is), I don't think he'll accept being hemmed into a position where he might deliver the fatal blow. Imagine, for example, that he is required to revoke Article 50 in the event of no extension being forthcoming from the EU: do you think he'd actually 'revoke'!? If you agree that this would seem likely, then is not to be trusted. However, as I said before, if he is hard-line about wishing to be PM of a GoNU, that places everyone else in a very tough spot (given that he likely would have a tizzy).

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24356 on: August 15, 2019, 05:06:48 PM »
It's sort of the wrong question. Labour are the opposition. Corbyn is the leader of the Labour party. Officially at least, Corbyn is opposed to No Deal.

Why do the Lib Dems get to say whether he can lead a GNU or not? - and, by the way, doing so by saying 'Tory rebels won't support him'. That's kind of up to the Tory rebels; some of whom have now said they're happy to meet with him to discuss it. If Swinson won't work with Corbyn to stop No Deal, fine. Just say so.Of course she already did, but it didn't really 'stick', she didn't get the swell of agreement she expected from other parties, and is now trying to gather that opposition-to-the-opposition.

Nearly everyone is still playing party politics. I'm not going to scream about putting 'party over country', because that's what politics is about and at some level all politicians genuinely believe that the success of their party is in the best interests of the country. But the Lib Dems wish to be seen as honest brokers willing to work with other parties doesn't instantly give them the authority to decide who in those parties they get to work with. They have to start with the leader. If he proves to be an untrustworthy twat who isn't working openly and sincerely to stop No Deal, fine, then you look for alternatives.



I agree with the bolded bit, that's what I said earlier.

Lib Dems don't get to say whether he can lead a GNU. Swinson/Lib Dems have been trying to co-ordinate anti Brexit MPs for ages and I would imagine the impression they've got is that they need a neutral character.

If Swinson was that power hungry, she would have put herself forward, which I don't think she has done.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24357 on: August 15, 2019, 05:09:44 PM »
BBC Politics
‏Verified account @BBCPolitics

"A short-term Jeremy Corbyn government is less damaging than the generational damage that would be caused by a no-deal Brexit"

Conservative Guto Bebb says MPs opposed to leaving the EU without a deal must take the Labour leader's #Brexit plan seriously

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1162019203517308935

Whether his view is shared by other Tory MPs remains to be seen but we need more politicians who are willing to put country over party.
Well, let's see what Corbyn is actually saying. But so far, he is being his usual clear-as-a-turd self.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24358 on: August 15, 2019, 05:12:56 PM »
Sorry, maybe I am being thick but I don't follow your logic.

Labour will allow a No Deal Brexit to happen if Corbyn can't lead the unity government, but it is Swinson's fault for pointing out that he may not be the best person to unite everyone, and there are other candidates?
On the face of it, Swinson's position is quite clever - she isn't proposing she leads the GNU, so it looks selfless and collaborative.

But by starting with a strict - and very public - position on not working with Corbyn (one that many people, including Labour party members, may instinctively understand), she's put Labour in a very dodgy position. "We'll work with Labour, but not their leader". Fine, everyone understands several reasons why. But why should the Labour leadership accept that? How does Corbyn lead the party into a general election with any authority if he's just had to support Kenneth Clarke (or even worse, a senior Labour backbencher) as leader of a GNU? How can he be sold as any sort of 'leader' if he's had to back down to Jo Swinson and her two handfuls of MPs?

Swinson's position doesn't leave the Labour leadership anywhere to go; it's lose-lose. If you want someone to back down and compromise, you need to offer them some way to benefit, or to save face. Here, Swinson gets to play at collaborative, grown up politics, while Corbyn gets ridiculed and sidelined. I don't mind Corbyn being ridiculed and sidelined, but I don't expect him to go for it. I think Swinson has made a bit of an error. Not as clumsy an error as Lucas did a few days ago, but an error all the same.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24359 on: August 15, 2019, 05:13:08 PM »
...and allow a No Deal Brexit??

That is pretty shocking. Equally as bad as the Lib Dems not backing Corbyn?
It's all shocking. Don't you get it yet? The whole fucking situation is shocking, so for people to mewl and puke about certain bits of it, as if it were the worst thing in the world, is helping no one or nothing.

The situation is basic: there's a chance the government might fail a Vote of No Confidence. The already short 14-day window to respond to that will be made even more critical by the looming cliff edge of Oct 31 and a government and PM who are on record as saying they will allow the county to fall over the cliff by doing nothing, if they can.

At such a juncture it would normally be expected for the Leader of the Opposition to form and lead a Government of National Unity to scupper the government's cynical, and frankly evil, plan.

The Leader of the Opposition being the lead is the default. How much time and scope do you think we have to piss about contesting this and demanding someone else take over and insist that the Opposition agree to sideline itself, while the country is set to burn?

Ideally it would be wonderful if all parties each unilaterally offered to NOT put their leader forward as the Leader of the GoNU, instead placing that task into the hands of a trusted and respected 'neutral', preferably am 'elder' MP who is expecting to leave the House and has no further career aspirations. And, yes, it would be great if discussion could lead to Corbyn agreeing to stand aside. But if that doesn't happen, what are we going to do?

There will be plenty of time for recriminations and mud-slinging afterwards. At the critical time around Oct 31 there'll be urgent work to do, and in the absence of agreement, it's not completely unexpected if the Leader of HM Opposition has primacy. The fact he's a bit of a dick is just inconvenient
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