Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 839207 times)

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22360 on: May 4, 2019, 05:42:25 PM »
.... Quite a pickle."


Pickle. Reminds of this scene.

Archie: Now about this pickle we find ourselves in. It would appear there’s only one thing left for you to do.
Dieter: And what would that be?
Archie: Stiglitz.
Hugo: Say ‘Auf Wiedersehen’ to your Nazi balls...


I'm wondering which politician plays which part though I expect the ending to probably be remarkably similar to that of the scene in the film.
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Offline Red Berry

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22361 on: May 4, 2019, 06:08:02 PM »


Revoking Article 50 only ends the immediate legislative process, not the political one and it's the political one which has left us with a zombie government and the prospect of, at best, a weak coalition government based on whether Labour will acquiesce to whatever the SNP want. Does that make it go away? Maybe Corbyn's Labour coming into power as part of a coalition would shut it out for a bit? That's the Owen Jones theory of it, just not convinced.

Everybody knows what the solution is.  The problem is there is no political will to carry it out because politicians are running scared.  Their usual brand of all wind and piss isn't getting them anywhere because ultimately this is a decision that has to be made and they can't sweep it under the carpet.

Leavers - or at least the morons who brought us to this place - know full well that to cancel A50 and hand this over to an independent authority to investigate, advise and craft a suitable response, would almost certainly kill Brexit stone dead.  They realise it wont be a case of "we can suspend A50 and then invoke it again when we actually know what the fuck we're doing" because they know that when they get that answer nobody will want to go along with it.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22362 on: May 4, 2019, 06:21:34 PM »
Everybody knows what the solution is.  The problem is there is no political will to carry it out because politicians are running scared.  Their usual brand of all wind and piss isn't getting them anywhere because ultimately this is a decision that has to be made and they can't sweep it under the carpet.

Leavers - or at least the morons who brought us to this place - know full well that to cancel A50 and hand this over to an independent authority to investigate, advise and craft a suitable response, would almost certainly kill Brexit stone dead.  They realise it wont be a case of "we can suspend A50 and then invoke it again when we actually know what the fuck we're doing" because they know that when they get that answer nobody will want to go along with it.

It's establishing the losers' consent which is the real problem. And, to be fair, let's say 'remain' lost a second referendum - remainers aren't packing up and saying 'alright then, we're out forever', it snowballs into a 'rejoin' campaign unless there's work done to bring people with the result. (Which wasn't done first time round, obviously.)  We're past a political debate on the merits, or otherwise, of pooling national sovereignty and into the stuff of how people perceive themselves and the world around them. Both party leaders are illequipped to persuade those not already in agreement. Otherwise could probably profitably point to those who successfully managed to build consensus with establishing the Welsh Assembly on a narrow referendum margin. Tories were still promising to abolish it for years after, mind.

Rob Ford goes on later in that thread to say that the party leaderships may actually be looking at an agreement as the least worst option to at least have a chance of claiming they've delivered Brexit and trying to push on to different things. (Narrator: they didn't push on to different things.)

*insert elmo shrugging gif here*
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22363 on: May 4, 2019, 06:23:22 PM »
James O'Brien once again puts our politicians to shame. excellent summary of what's happened over the last few years.
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1124331359823069186

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 :lmao

The worrying thing is the the penny still hasn't dropped with a lot of Leave voters.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22364 on: May 4, 2019, 07:10:11 PM »
"Weapons grade Crystal Ball"

 :lmao

The worrying thing is the the penny still hasn't dropped with a lot of Leave voters.
I don't think the penny will ever drop with some leave voters, they will be stirring the s,,, for many years to come even if we leave the EU, thankfully most are probably Tories or future Brexit party voters anyway.which leaves us mystified why Corbyns Labour are appeasing them while annihilating their own voters.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22365 on: May 5, 2019, 08:48:55 AM »
Telegraph's Peter Foster is picking apart the Sunday Times' reporting on what May and Corbyn have been brewing in private. https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1124931924831670277

On one level it's understandable - kick the decision about the future relationship until a general election in 2022, pinky promise, but accept the withdrawal agreement now. But on every other, including the bit where we need to be negotiating with the EU and not among ourselves - let alone the prospect of trying to get such a plan through Parliament, it seems so deranged that it's almost as if it's intended to fall apart on contact with backbenchers reading it with reality having a few days off from having to intervene.
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Offline Robinred

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22366 on: May 5, 2019, 01:57:59 PM »
Telegraph's Peter Foster is picking apart the Sunday Times' reporting on what May and Corbyn have been brewing in private. https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1124931924831670277

On one level it's understandable - kick the decision about the future relationship until a general election in 2022, pinky promise, but accept the withdrawal agreement now. But on every other, including the bit where we need to be negotiating with the EU and not among ourselves - let alone the prospect of trying to get such a plan through Parliament, it seems so deranged that it's almost as if it's intended to fall apart on contact with backbenchers reading it with reality having a few days off from having to intervene.

Interesting analysis. John Crace too, puzzled by many elements of what looks like a fudge dressed up as a ‘solution’.

What none of the political commentators seem prepared to make explicit, which surprises me, is that Corbyn isn’t calling the shots - it’s blatantly obvious it’s Milne and Murray.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22368 on: May 5, 2019, 03:22:54 PM »
https://twitter.com/theresa_may/status/1124994825370112000?s=21

Such a fucking moron

Quote
To MPs, I would say this: if we are able to negotiate a cross-party agreement, this deal will be a stepping stone to a brighter future, outside the EU, where the UK can determine the road ahead.

This is because no parliament can bind its successor.

Some people would prefer a less close relationship with the EU in the future, while others would prefer a closer relationship.

The key point is, the ultimate decision-maker in everything we do is Parliament. So future parliaments, with a different party balance, will be able to decide whether they want a closer or more distant  relationship with the EU.

Her reinforcing the fears of Labour MPs of a Johnson or Rees-Mogg government tearing the Withdrawal Agreement and/or Political Declaration up is an example of the strategic masterstrokes we've come to expect from her.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22369 on: May 5, 2019, 03:29:30 PM »
well if Corbyn pushes through a crap Brexit agreement to save the tories then that is my red line crossed and even though i agree with the other policies we have in place i could not support him anymore.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22370 on: May 5, 2019, 04:06:23 PM »
Her reinforcing the fears of Labour MPs of a Johnson or Rees-Mogg government tearing the Withdrawal Agreement and/or Political Declaration up is an example of the strategic masterstrokes we've come to expect from her.

o MPs, I would say this: if we are able to negotiate a cross-party agreement, this deal will be a stepping stone to a brighter future, outside the EU, where the UK can determine the road ahead.

This is because no parliament can bind its successor.

Some people would prefer a less close relationship with the EU in the future, while others would prefer a closer relationship.

The key point is, the ultimate decision-maker in everything we do is Parliament. So future parliaments, with a different party balance, will be able to decide whether they want a closer or more distant  relationship with the EU.
Unbelievable. nearly 3 yrs of preaching the will of the people, we must deliver the brexit the people voted for blah blah blah and now shes saying No parliament can bind it's successor, Parliament didn't trigger ART 50 because it believed in Brexit, they triggered it because MPs argued the British people have spoken s,,, May and Corbyn supported those arguments, look where it's taken us, millions believing the people are Sovereign not our Parliament, a new right wing party that will bring anarchy if elected. the people have to have a say on what happens next. any deal without a peoples vote will strengthen Farages position. this will bring uproar but it will also end the Brexit procedure, I doubt if the majority of people in this country would want it to begin again once they know the people voted to stop it.
Our politicians played with fire, they will pay the price politically thats for certain, we should not pay the price economically to cover up their stupidity.

« Last Edit: May 5, 2019, 04:08:02 PM by oldfordie »
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Offline Tepid T₂O

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22371 on: May 5, 2019, 04:08:18 PM »
well if Corbyn pushes through a crap Brexit agreement to save the tories then that is my red line crossed and even though i agree with the other policies we have in place i could not support him anymore.
He won’t. Mostly because he can’t.

There is no majority for the customs union.  What he and May seem to be suggesting has already been rejected by the EU
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22372 on: May 5, 2019, 04:17:31 PM »
He won’t. Mostly because he can’t.

There is no majority for the customs union.  What he and May seem to be suggesting has already been rejected by the EU
I think there was a concern that they may panic and agree to something so we don't have to stand in the MEP elections, that deadline has now passed.


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European Parliament elections now certain, simply cos Withdrawal agreement bill has not been published and no time to clear Commons before May 23. "Realistically we are past that point," Whitehall source says.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1123969740135960577
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22373 on: May 5, 2019, 04:53:40 PM »
I think there was a concern that they may panic and agree to something so we don't have to stand in the MEP elections, that deadline has now passed.


Paul Waugh
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European Parliament elections now certain, simply cos Withdrawal agreement bill has not been published and no time to clear Commons before May 23. "Realistically we are past that point," Whitehall source says.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1123969740135960577
Is that certain? No way they can Everton the admin to get it through without getting it through, and avoid the elections?

Still by agreeing to deal together Labour might yet hope to avoid a kicking from Brexiters in the Euros. But then they might get a kicking from Remainers
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22374 on: May 5, 2019, 05:10:09 PM »
Is that certain? No way they can Everton the admin to get it through without getting it through, and avoid the elections?

Still by agreeing to deal together Labour might yet hope to avoid a kicking from Brexiters in the Euros. But then they might get a kicking from Remainers
Looks like it according to the people who understand Parliamentary procedure. I don't think May expects to do a deal with Labour, she's trying to force Parliament to back her deal again.
I don't think Labour doing a deal will save them, it will make matters worse, they may save a lot of votes if they come out and publicly demand a referendum. won't win my vote but I can see others voting for them.
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Offline Riquende

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22375 on: May 5, 2019, 06:04:12 PM »
I have just come back from lunch at my parents' house. I've said before that I view my mother as the absolute archetypal 'middle England' voter (she reads the Mail and Express etc) and it really hit home today.

- She thinks 'they' (meaning all MPs) should just back May's deal. When I asked her if she knew anything about the deal, she admitted she didn't. She's just bored of Brexit and thinks the deal is the end of it all.
- She asked a lot of questions about the current state of things "why can't they..." etc, but grew quickly bored when I tried to explain it and kept telling me she wasn't following any of it.
- When I told her the only person that could resolve this right now was May, by revoking A50, she reached for the 'yes but we're a democracy and you can't go against the majority' line.
- She blamed the deal not passing on remainer MPs who want their own way, and didn't know what I was talking about when I said the ERG stalwarts were the main scupperers of the deal and they're the least Remainer of them all!

It wasn't bad-tempered but I did have to point out she brought it up and then didn't want to hear how complicated it all was. She wouldn't accept that the MPs don't have a moral duty to vote through the deal... mothers, eh?

Anyway I did come to a bit of clarity in my own thinking about the stalemate Westminster is in... ultimately that Brexit is unfolding chaos (and will be far more chaotic to come) and, to quote Littlefinger, "Chaos is a ladder". There are loads of smaller factions that could just about hold their nose and vote through a deal of sorts if they get something out of it, but a lot of those goals are incompatible and May isn't really the giving type anyway. And on the other hand, the two main parties are way too scared of pissing off a huge part (up to or even over 50%) of the electorate by taking the blame for the 'bad' of Brexit. And, let's be clear, there is no form of Brexit resolution (including cancelling it) that doesn't have a 'bad' end for lots of people.

Hence both mainstream Labour and Tories can't move in any direction for fear of being the one that can be pointed at the end of the process, and any sort of support that could be forthcoming to help shape a direction isn't, because there's no incentive for smaller groups to stick their head above the parapet.

There's literally no way out of this morass (in any direction) without someone (or more likely several someones) being willing to take an epic electoral hit. And they're all hoping someone else will blink first.

So to summarise, why can't they all just vote for the deal? We're fucked...
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Offline Red Berry

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22376 on: May 5, 2019, 07:11:30 PM »
Looks like it according to the people who understand Parliamentary procedure. I don't think May expects to do a deal with Labour, she's trying to force Parliament to back her deal again.
I don't think Labour doing a deal will save them, it will make matters worse, they may save a lot of votes if they come out and publicly demand a referendum. won't win my vote but I can see others voting for them.

Less about forcing Parliament and more about forcing her own nutjob MPs to back her.  I doubt they would now, regardless of what she put to them, simply because it's her.

As for Labour, they face a kicking from Leavers who don't believe their Labour's Leave credentials, and from Remainers who feel betrayed.  They're fucked either way now.


- She thinks 'they' (meaning all MPs) should just back May's deal. When I asked her if she knew anything about the deal, she admitted she didn't. She's just bored of Brexit and thinks the deal is the end of it all.
- She asked a lot of questions about the current state of things "why can't they..." etc, but grew quickly bored when I tried to explain it and kept telling me she wasn't following any of it.
- When I told her the only person that could resolve this right now was May, by revoking A50, she reached for the 'yes but we're a democracy and you can't go against the majority' line.
- She blamed the deal not passing on remainer MPs who want their own way, and didn't know what I was talking about when I said the ERG stalwarts were the main scupperers of the deal and they're the least Remainer of them all!

It wasn't bad-tempered but I did have to point out she brought it up and then didn't want to hear how complicated it all was. She wouldn't accept that the MPs don't have a moral duty to vote through the deal... mothers, eh?


See this is a big problem.  Don't know how your mum voted, but multiply that attitude by, say, 17 million.  Why should we respect the majority vote when so many clearly not only don't understand the issues, they have no interest in learning about them?  What's to respect about an ignorant vote?
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22377 on: May 5, 2019, 07:40:48 PM »
I have just come back from lunch at my parents' house. I've said before that I view my mother as the absolute archetypal 'middle England' voter (she reads the Mail and Express etc) and it really hit home today.

- She thinks 'they' (meaning all MPs) should just back May's deal. When I asked her if she knew anything about the deal, she admitted she didn't. She's just bored of Brexit and thinks the deal is the end of it all.
- She asked a lot of questions about the current state of things "why can't they..." etc, but grew quickly bored when I tried to explain it and kept telling me she wasn't following any of it.
- When I told her the only person that could resolve this right now was May, by revoking A50, she reached for the 'yes but we're a democracy and you can't go against the majority' line.
- She blamed the deal not passing on remainer MPs who want their own way, and didn't know what I was talking about when I said the ERG stalwarts were the main scupperers of the deal and they're the least Remainer of them all!

It wasn't bad-tempered but I did have to point out she brought it up and then didn't want to hear how complicated it all was. She wouldn't accept that the MPs don't have a moral duty to vote through the deal... mothers, eh?

Anyway I did come to a bit of clarity in my own thinking about the stalemate Westminster is in... ultimately that Brexit is unfolding chaos (and will be far more chaotic to come) and, to quote Littlefinger, "Chaos is a ladder". There are loads of smaller factions that could just about hold their nose and vote through a deal of sorts if they get something out of it, but a lot of those goals are incompatible and May isn't really the giving type anyway. And on the other hand, the two main parties are way too scared of pissing off a huge part (up to or even over 50%) of the electorate by taking the blame for the 'bad' of Brexit. And, let's be clear, there is no form of Brexit resolution (including cancelling it) that doesn't have a 'bad' end for lots of people.

Hence both mainstream Labour and Tories can't move in any direction for fear of being the one that can be pointed at the end of the process, and any sort of support that could be forthcoming to help shape a direction isn't, because there's no incentive for smaller groups to stick their head above the parapet.

There's literally no way out of this morass (in any direction) without someone (or more likely several someones) being willing to take an epic electoral hit. And they're all hoping someone else will blink first.

So to summarise, why can't they all just vote for the deal? We're fucked...
They have no idea on what's coming. ignorance is bliss. I think this is the message that has to be hammered home before it's too late.
The unemployed and low wage earners who voted for Brexit have been taken for fools, the pensioners who think Brexit won't hurt them because they got through the crash of 2008 ok have been taken for fools, these are the most vulnerable people when it comes to the hurt Brexit will bring and the tragedy is nobody will be able to do anything about it unless we go back to the EU and beg them to help us.
 We walk away from the EU and prices of all imported goods in the shops will rise by 10%-40%.
Thats a tax on all imported goods from every country in the world not just the EU.
New trade deals to stop these taxes will take years.
They may not understand the effect of loosing frictionless trading or services but am pretty sure everyone understands what the effect of price rise over night in the shops means.
The same applies to our exports, prices of UK goods in shops around the world will rise by 10%-40%, employers will not be able to afford wage rises as they will be unable to compete abroad due to these added taxes on their goods.
« Last Edit: May 5, 2019, 07:42:59 PM by oldfordie »
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22378 on: May 5, 2019, 10:40:49 PM »
Snip

During the referendum there was a quote from, of all people Noel Gallagher which actually seems to be quite profound now "What are you asking the people for? 99 percent of the people are thick as pig shit".

I'm fed up with pussy footing around with my parents and the bullshit they read, I've started calling them racists, facists and selfish for not putting their kids and grandkids before themselves. Its upset them, but also made them think about it properly - good.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22379 on: May 6, 2019, 09:37:06 AM »
Interesting analysis. John Crace too, puzzled by many elements of what looks like a fudge dressed up as a ‘solution’.

What none of the political commentators seem prepared to make explicit, which surprises me, is that Corbyn isn’t calling the shots - it’s blatantly obvious it’s Milne and Murray.

The negotiation part is really weird. I agree with you on who this 'agreement' would appeal to, would say though that Starmer's team are coming out publicly and daring Corbyn to sack them and renege on the pledges over a second referendum which prevented more splitting away.

eg Pennycock, Shadow Brexit Minister, this morning on twitter: "As I said from the despatch box on 9 April, given where we now are there is a clear requirement to seek “public approval for any agreement that might emerge at this late hour by means of a confirmatory referendum”."

All seems a bit like everyone lining up their excuses for walking away from talks to me, rather than Corbyn and Milne risking 'the movement' over Brexit.
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Offline Red Berry

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22380 on: May 6, 2019, 10:01:20 AM »


All seems a bit like everyone lining up their excuses for walking away from talks to me, rather than Corbyn and Milne risking 'the movement' over Brexit.

That's the rub.  Not doing it, not because it's in the best interests of the country or voters, but simply to protect "the movement".  Pure self interest.

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons rarely works in the long run.  It will get us some breathing space but it wont save Labour because soon enough they'll move onto the next debacle.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22381 on: May 7, 2019, 08:50:21 AM »
Last day to register for the European elections. EU citizens in Britain, apparently, have a bit of a faff with an extra form to do. Best for Britain (pro-Remain group - their CEO is on Remainiacs podcast all the time) has done a way to register where they do the forms for you if you've not got round to registering yet or aren't sure whether you are: https://getvoting.org/#/

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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22382 on: May 7, 2019, 10:07:21 AM »
Last day to register for the European elections. EU citizens in Britain, apparently, have a bit of a faff with an extra form to do. Best for Britain (pro-Remain group - their CEO is on Remainiacs podcast all the time) has done a way to register where they do the forms for you if you've not got round to registering yet or aren't sure whether you are: https://getvoting.org/#/

I think there's been a problem with that, best to do it directly with the Council.
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22383 on: May 7, 2019, 10:37:05 AM »
Interesting piece from Matthew d’Ancona in the Guardian who doesn't see anyway that a Corbyn / May deal can work.

Convinced this stitch-up can end the Brexit ordeal? Think again
- Matthew d’Ancona


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/06/stitch-up-brexit-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn




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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22384 on: May 7, 2019, 10:53:20 AM »
Interesting piece from Matthew d’Ancona in the Guardian who doesn't see anyway that a Corbyn / May deal can work.

Convinced this stitch-up can end the Brexit ordeal? Think again
- Matthew d’Ancona


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/06/stitch-up-brexit-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn
Matthew d’Ancona might well be correct about the outcome of a Commons vote on such a deal; this does not, however, preclude Corbyn and May from attempting just such a stitch-up. After all, this is exactly what they are attempting to hammer out right now. Surely just the attempt will be the final nail in the coffin of their leaderships (and parties). It could be a positive thing, where it is the final straw to force far more Labour voters to look elsewhere to prevent Brexit.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22385 on: May 7, 2019, 12:55:32 PM »
At his press conference Farage just said the Brexit Party will not be publishing any policies until after the European elections. During the campaign they will be focusing on "democracy".

What, exactly, is democratic about saying "vote for us and we'll decide what your vote means later"? 

A sizeable percentage will fall for it, again. No one called him out on it, either.  ::)
« Last Edit: May 7, 2019, 02:20:37 PM by Kekuleyule y'all! »

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22386 on: May 7, 2019, 02:09:56 PM »


Their voters will not care less.

They just want us out!!!

Offline Jshooters

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22387 on: May 7, 2019, 03:45:59 PM »
At his press conference Farage just said the Brexit Party will not be publishing any policies until after the European elections. During the campaign they will be focusing on "democracy".

What, exactly, is democratic about saying "vote for us and we'll decide what your vote means later"? 

A sizeable percentage will fall for it, again. No one called him out on it, either.  ::)

He also said that should the Brexit Party 'win' the EU elections (whatever that means) then they will demand to be on the team responsible for negotiating with the EU.  But their position is a WTO Brexit.  Which is a no-deal Brexit.  Which literally doesn't require ANY negotiation   ::)
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22388 on: May 7, 2019, 04:10:05 PM »
He also said that should the Brexit Party 'win' the EU elections (whatever that means) then they will demand to be on the team responsible for negotiating with the EU.  But their position is a WTO Brexit.  Which is a no-deal Brexit.  Which literally doesn't require ANY negotiation   ::)
so they’re getting 50% of the votes for this to happen, or will it be a coalition with their fellow Brexit parties like UKIP/Tory/labour

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22389 on: May 7, 2019, 04:48:44 PM »
I think there's been a problem with that, best to do it directly with the Council.

Thanks Danny, yeah, they seem to have replaced it with links to what to do and government sites now.
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22390 on: May 7, 2019, 05:19:51 PM »
Rob Ford, at Manchester University - he's literally written the book on Kippers (well a lot of papers heh), has been posting since I wrote that.

"The deadlock makes people angry. The only possible solutions to the deadlock make people angry. Great news for populists like Farage. Bad news for everyone else.

One problem for the main parties is that doing a compromise deal probably won’t move the agenda on from Brexit but not doing a deal definitely won’t.

Another problem is that if Farage follows through and stands Brexit party candidates everywhere in the next GE there’s a strong chance that the underlying demographic and identity divides revealed by Brexit will continue to drive many voters choices whatever actually happens.

A third problem is that a Brexit deal may lead strong Remainers to split off too (though who they go to is an open Q for now). But the only viable way to given them what they want - another referendum - is also v likely to intensify Brexit polarisation.

Doing nothing on Brexit makes things worse. But the only viable options - deal or 2nd ref - also make things worse. Quite a pickle."

Revoking Article 50 only ends the immediate legislative process, not the political one and it's the political one which has left us with a zombie government and the prospect of, at best, a weak coalition government based on whether Labour will acquiesce to whatever the SNP want. Does that make it go away? Maybe Corbyn's Labour coming into power as part of a coalition would shut it out for a bit? That's the Owen Jones theory of it, just not convinced.
This argumentation is strange.  Those options have enormously different real world consequences, which will be felt for decades. That should be guiding the decision.
Second, I think many experts underestimate how quickly an issue can fall off the agenda. People are sick of brexit. Remember Iraq? Coal mines? Whatever the decision is, there will be massive complaints and then people will move on. I really doubt Farage will do well in a GE on a pure brexit agenda.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22391 on: May 7, 2019, 05:38:48 PM »
This argumentation is strange.  Those options have enormously different real world consequences, which will be felt for decades. That should be guiding the decision.
Second, I think many experts underestimate how quickly an issue can fall off the agenda. People are sick of brexit. Remember Iraq? Coal mines? Whatever the decision is, there will be massive complaints and then people will move on. I really doubt Farage will do well in a GE on a pure brexit agenda.

Not sure the argumentation is strange solely because one wishes to view things more optimistically. :) What you're saying there is perfectly plausible, heard it and read it myself from several on the Corbynite left - who themselves are famous for having forgotten about Iraq and the coal mines. However, the case Ford, and others, are making is that the divisions aren't new things but Brexit is accelerating something already there and which tears at the voter coalitions which formed our traditional political parties.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline BoRed

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22392 on: May 8, 2019, 12:13:44 PM »
Corbyn: "perhaps May should take tips form Jurgen Klopp on getting a good result in Europe" ;D

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22393 on: May 8, 2019, 12:42:35 PM »
Corbyn: "perhaps May should take tips form Jurgen Klopp on getting a good result in Europe" ;D

Perhaps Corbyn should take tips from Jurgen Klopp and call unequivocally for a People's Vote.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22394 on: May 9, 2019, 09:52:14 AM »
Government was warned about Brexit ferry payouts

Quote
The government was warned last year that it would face a bill of up to £20m if sued over the procurement of no-deal Brexit ferry services, the National Audit Office has revealed.

It said the Department for Transport's (DfT) accounting officer thought there was a "high likelihood" of a challenge over the contracts with Brittany Ferries, DFDS and Seaborne Freight.

She also warned Eurotunnel could sue.

In March, the DfT agreed to a £33m settlement with the firm.

In response to the National Audit Office's (NAO) report, the government said it had "carefully considered the legal risk at all stages of the procurement".

The Eurotunnel case was brought after the government handed out three contracts worth more than £100m in total to Brittany Ferries, DFDS, and Seaborne Freight in December.

These were to provide additional freight capacity on ferry services between Britain and mainland Europe in the event that a no-deal Brexit led to disruption at UK ports.

The awards were not subject to a full public procurement process, which the DfT said was justified by "reasons of extreme urgency brought about by events unforeseen by the contracting authority".

However, Eurotunnel challenged the government's handling of the spend, and began legal proceedings in January, seeking up to £80m in damages.

It claimed it had never been approached as a potential provider, despite having previously run a ferry service.

The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling previously called the company's decision to take legal action "disappointing".

The NAO report reveals that Mr Grayling's department was advised that while a procurement challenge was probable and "likely to be successful", any trial was unlikely to occur before the 29 March, the day Britain was scheduled to leave the EU.

It was also advised any disputes over the contracts would probably end in a payout of up to £20m.

In the event, Eurotunnel's case was expedited, forcing the DfT to pay out to protect its contracts for the delivery critical supplies in the event of a no-deal.

All three ferry contracts have since been terminated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48208121

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22395 on: May 9, 2019, 01:08:37 PM »
Quote
Commitment to leave EU confirmed in Labour party manifesto and at party conference says @jeremycorbyn

https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1126431063574818818

Quote
Over 17 million people voted to leave the European Union. As democratic socialists, we cannot ignore that.

We voted to trigger Article 50 in 2017 and promised to respect the referendum in our general election manifesto and again at our party conference last year.

Quote
Labour will never be the party of the 52 per cent or of the 48 per cent.

https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corbyn-launches-labours-eu-election-campaign/

Quote
Labour will continue to oppose the Government’s bad deal or a disastrous no deal. And if we can’t get agreement along the lines of our alternative plan, or a general election, Labour backs the option of a public vote

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/transforming-britain-and-europe/

So as anyone who's been paying attention/isn't deluding themselves already assumed, there will be no public vote if Labour bails out the Tories with a cross-party deal.


Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22396 on: May 9, 2019, 01:20:35 PM »
So as anyone who's been paying attention/isn't deluding themselves already assumed, there will be no public vote if Labour bails out the Tories with a cross-party deal.

And there will be no cross-party deal capable of passing through Parliament. It's the "backs the option of a public vote" which has really pissed off friends who are still members though.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22397 on: May 9, 2019, 01:49:29 PM »


It's a defacto public vote, as the other two options (Brexit deal or GE) will not happen.

Offline Devon Red

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22398 on: May 9, 2019, 02:05:48 PM »
It's a defacto public vote, as the other two options (Brexit deal or GE) will not happen.

Which makes it all the more cowardly that they can't just admit it. It also ensures that votes for Labour in the EU election will be counted as votes for Brexit. 'A new kind of politics' my arse. They didn't even put anyone up to be interviewed on the BBC on the day that they launched their manifesto! Although to be fair the others haven't done much better; the Tories might not even have a campaign at all, the Brexit party is going to release its manifesto after the election and won't reveal where its funding comes from, and Change UK can't even design a logo or maintain a twitter account. The only party who seem to have their messaging sorted are the Lib Dems who are campaigning with the slogan 'bollocks to brexit'. That's got my vote.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22399 on: May 9, 2019, 02:16:11 PM »


I'm not defending it, just saying it for what it is.

Deliberate ambiguity is not going to continue to work for them I don't think.

The Lib Dems and The Greens are only two choices as far as I'm concerned.