Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 835683 times)

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22241 on: May 1, 2019, 10:45:05 AM »
Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.
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Offline sms1986

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22242 on: May 1, 2019, 11:07:11 AM »
This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%. ;D

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

Offline Devon Red

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22243 on: May 1, 2019, 11:19:54 AM »
I like this article from Alex Andreou; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/01/the-remain-tactic-is-now-simple-give-labour-a-bloody-nose

"strategic voting is irrelevant, the number of MEPs is irrelevant, which Remain party you favour is irrelevant, how well Farage does is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is to show Labour that there is no route to No.10 unless they change tack. The only strategy is to give Labour a bloody nose, in as emphatic a way as possible."


Even if you are a lifelong Labour supporter, even if you will vote for them in local and general elections, even if you support Corbyn's policies - please, if you believe that we are better off in the EU than out, lend your vote at the EU elections to a remain party. It really is the only way to show Labour how much this matters to its voters.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22244 on: May 1, 2019, 11:40:15 AM »
I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

Scottish Greens - 81%
Lib Dems - 80%
Sinn Fein - 78%

The last two being quite a surprise...
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22245 on: May 1, 2019, 12:01:38 PM »
Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.

What really sticks in my throat is that when the Labour Leadership election took place in 2015, most sections of my union, Unite including my sector recommended backing Andy Burnham for leader. Yet because Len fucking McCluskey is chief executive of Unite, his recommendation of Corbyn suddenly became the stance of "Unite the Union" and all its members - it isn't!!

https://unitetheunion.org/what-we-do/unite-in-politics/

I'm gutted because I think Andy Burnham would have been a great leader and would probably cruise to a GE victory against this lot. I've read on here that posters have left the labour party because of the direction that the party is taking but surely people need to keep their membership and vote against Corbyn at these leadership contests? Although I'm not sure entirely how the leadership voting works as it seems very much stacked it favour of Corbyn as he also won the 2016 leadership election quite easily. 
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22246 on: May 1, 2019, 12:21:42 PM »
A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

You keep churning out this garbage and you are not alone,  in the real world Labour members tend to follow the policies agreed on in conference not just a small cabal in the leadership, you seem to think the massive elections majorities were simply these new members who many in here deem as unworthy of being a member, this wasnt the case many very experienced  Labour members voted for Corbyn twice as it happens if that not democracy what is and still support the policies the leadership and the party voted for ? 

Such was and seemingly still is the dirth of talent in the Right and Centre right of this party.

You cannot blame Corbyn for being the only candidate who could attract new and old members such was the lack lustre performance of the other three. However you have not really respecting democracy is it.

What i find laughable is you all talk about democracy but for many in here it's just democracy when it suits, from the day Corbyn got democratically elected the first time people in here and in the PLP and Media have openly criticised him as a person, sticking the knife in on a daily basis,  not his policies though in the main excluding Brexit.

Many latch on to any spurious tit bits,  false facts, gossip in any right wing press coverage and embelished it to the umpteeth degree to make more of it than it originally merited.

 This actually make the criticisms that are merited quite meaningless at times to me in a boy cried wolf scenario.
 
You are simply and always have been royally pissed off because the legacy from Blair ceased to continue and for you a case of  god help us a lefty got in for once.

  What the present leadership is doing is actually the same way of working as previous Labour leaders with their close friends in prominant positions for example Milne = Campbell seems to have the same influence no more and certainly no less. Much maligned Barry Gardiner as much a one track hot head as Mandelson for example.  I guess it was alright then though for a small group to propel us using lies into a war that we did not have to take part in.

As for the other banal comment  'We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’

yes the referendum might be called rigged but if or until that is legally challenged and admitted technically we needed to abide by the outcome, however if this situation alters and a court makes the result null & void  then you can say we do not regonise the result and go for a new referendum.

I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22247 on: May 1, 2019, 12:32:22 PM »
I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.

Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22248 on: May 1, 2019, 12:54:52 PM »
Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

Too many home truths for you?
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22249 on: May 1, 2019, 12:55:55 PM »
Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22250 on: May 1, 2019, 12:57:36 PM »
I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22251 on: May 1, 2019, 01:04:40 PM »
It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.

He's now going to claim this is what he meant by "split".
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22252 on: May 1, 2019, 01:09:44 PM »
Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?

Keep living in the past fella Saint Tony isnt coming back.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22253 on: May 1, 2019, 01:12:48 PM »
It's a good question and something ive already posted about in the past.
Would ex Labour remain supporters forgive Corbyns Labour if they did a uturn and called for another referendum with remain as a option.
I think we have to remind ourselves how the country got where it is today, why is the country so split. lies, our politicians convinced leave voters a successful brexit that protects jobs and the economy is possible, they argued we can rid our selves of the EU rules and regulation etc and look forward to brexit positively. Corbyns Labour argued all these points while arguing we must respect why leave voters voted leave, the thing is it's not just about Labour calling another referendum, they have to win it as well to be forgiven, Labour should have been educating the public over the last 2 yrs, they chose to lie to them, now they have to try and convince those voters that there is no successful Brexit. they made that task of winning a confirmatory referendum far harder. Corbyns Labour should have been arguing for a confirmatory referendum from day 1, they should have been educating the public on why we need 1 instead of repeating the hard rights lies.
« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:15:07 PM by oldfordie »
Ohh F.off Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Ohh F. off Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Ohh F.off Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Ohh F. off Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.Ohh F.off Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Ohh F. off Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22254 on: May 1, 2019, 01:37:26 PM »
It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.


You know that for certain how ?

Polls are not very accurate most of the time depends on the way a question is put and people lie anyway and depends on the sample, which is why i never trust polls not matter if i agree with the result or not.

Whichever way Labour go they alienate voters and what's worse with the Labour leavers it could send them over to the likes of Farage.

Personally i would go for remain but that would still be brave move for the party to take on in the present political climate.

The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22255 on: May 1, 2019, 01:37:34 PM »
It's a good question and something ive already posted about in the past.
Would ex Labour remain supporters forgive Corbyns Labour if they did a uturn and called for another referendum with remain as a option.
I think we have to remind ourselves how the country got where it is today, why is the country so split. lies, our politicians convinced leave voters a successful brexit that protects jobs and the economy is possible, they argued we can rid our selves of the EU rules and regulation etc and look forward to brexit positively. Corbyns Labour argued all these points while arguing we must respect why leave voters voted leave, the thing is it's not just about Labour calling another referendum, they have to win it as well to be forgiven, Labour should have been educating the public over the last 2 yrs, they chose to lie to them, now they have to try and convince those voters that there is no successful Brexit. they made that task of winning a confirmatory referendum far harder. Corbyns Labour should have been arguing for a confirmatory referendum from day 1, they should have been educating the public on why we need 1 instead of repeating the hard rights lies.

The Overton window was a big thing during the 2015 leadership election. It was why Corbyn was nominated, to move the debate leftwards. At the time of the referendum result, Brexit was supposed to mean something like Norway, which Farage was advocating. The Overton window on Brexit has now moved to the point where a large portion the populace favours no deal. Corbyn, who should have been moving the Overton window to educate the voters on how Brexit is not practical, was the first to call for its immediate implementation.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22256 on: May 1, 2019, 01:38:53 PM »
Keep living in the past fella Saint Tony isnt coming back.

I point to Corbyn's position on Brexit, and you point to Tony Blair.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22257 on: May 1, 2019, 01:41:49 PM »
11 years since Blair left.

14years years since labour last won an election.

Blair is the past, but we can learn lessons from labour successes in previous elections I think.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22258 on: May 1, 2019, 01:47:18 PM »
Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
Lab 2017 voters: 71/29

Labour voters have become significantly more "Remainy" over time as well, hardly a shock given where they did well in the 2017 election, Remain strongholds.

And yes there are margins of error with polling but I don't think it likely that a poll showing 71:29 means 50:50 in reality.

Labour's problems with Leave voters isn't just Brexit, it is that those voters tend to be a lot more socially illiberal than average which obviously pushes them towards the more populist right, a lot of those voters would be difficult for Labour to win back even if they went full Hard Brexit

« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:52:01 PM by filopastry »

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22259 on: May 1, 2019, 01:52:14 PM »
The Overton window was a big thing during the 2015 leadership election. It was why Corbyn was nominated, to move the debate leftwards. At the time of the referendum result, Brexit was supposed to mean something like Norway, which Farage was advocating. The Overton window on Brexit has now moved to the point where a large portion the populace favours no deal. Corbyn, who should have been moving the Overton window to educate the voters on how Brexit is not practical, was the first to call for its immediate implementation.
Yep. Corbyn won the Labour leadership election after the referendum arguing for a Norway deal, we know what happened next. I didn't hear anyone screaming betrayal back then,May laid down her red lines as the Brexit people voted for, those red lines make a Norway or Custom union deal impossible. everything changed when May laid down those red lines, a no deal became a certainty unless she dropped those red lines.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22260 on: May 1, 2019, 01:53:05 PM »
Andy Beckett (The split decision, G2, 20 July) contends that the current Labour party crisis parallels events in 1981 – which led to the formation of the SDP – and that Jeremy Corbyn is a similar figure now to Michael Foot then: “a faintly otherworldly leftwinger in his late 60s”. This suggestion is misleading because it ignores the fact that our “Overton window” – through which the boundaries between political orthodoxy and heresy are defined – has shifted very considerably to the right in the past 30 years. Political philosophies and policies that would in 1981 have seemed “loony right” are now viewed as mainstream, and formerly social-democrat positions are commonly reviled as somehow Marxist.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/24/framing-jeremy-corbyn-overton-window

Trident excepted, most of what Corbyn stands for today is closer to Shirley Williams than to Michael Foot. This is why Corbyn is so popular. It is not that he is hard left: it is because the current position of the Overton window is repellent to millions of ordinary citizens who wish to live in a more decent society than ours has become.
Bob Gilmurray

Funny you should mention that.



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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22261 on: May 1, 2019, 01:59:11 PM »
I point to Corbyn's position on Brexit, and you point to Tony Blair.

In a way i pointed out the very thing you criticise Corbyn for I.e. small group politics, Blair worked in exactly the same way even excluding the deputy leader from major discussions in the same way the current one is treated and including a PR man with way too much power in decision making but i guess you were happy then with Campbell doing exactly what Milne appears to be doing now,  personally i wasnt happy with Campbell and i feel the same about Milne.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22262 on: May 1, 2019, 02:06:16 PM »
In a way i pointed out the very thing you criticise Corbyn for I.e. small group politics, Blair worked in exactly the same way even excluding the deputy leader from major discussions in the same way the current one is treated and including a PR man with way too much power in decision making but i guess you were happy then with Campbell doing exactly what Milne appears to be doing now,  personally i wasnt happy with Campbell and i feel the same about Milne.

I care little about the form of politics, as long as Labour fights to keep us in the EU. Whatever my views about Corbyn, I never envisaged myself voting anything other than Labour. Until Corbyn said his piece on the morning of the referendum. All your arguments about Labour constituencies are irrelevant. Corbyn didn't have access to that information when he demanded the immediate invocation of article 50. You've dismissed polls showing how Labour voters overwhelmingly favour Remain. What information did Corbyn have on the morning of 24th June 2016, that prompted him, even before the Leave leaders, to demand that article 50 should be immediately invoked?
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22263 on: May 1, 2019, 02:15:46 PM »
You know that for certain how ?

Polls are not very accurate most of the time depends on the way a question is put and people lie anyway and depends on the sample, which is why i never trust polls not matter if i agree with the result or not.

Whichever way Labour go they alienate voters and what's worse with the Labour leavers it could send them over to the likes of Farage.

Personally i would go for remain but that would still be brave move for the party to take on in the present political climate.

Come on Geoff, do you really believe this or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? The you-gov data isn't even really a poll, it was gathered after the event. This kind of data is generally very accurate, and if you know otherwise give me references. In any event, other data shows the same story. So does meta-analysis. Labour voters overwhelmingly voted remain. As filopastry pointed out this trend is only getting stronger. It's time to ditch the lie that the Labour leadership have some strategic 4D chess game in their heads and this is all part of the master plan. Corbyn and his clique are Brexiteers, that's the beginning, middle and end of it.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22264 on: May 1, 2019, 02:19:39 PM »
UK government cancels Brexit ferry deals

Quote
The Department for Transport is cancelling contracts to provide extra ferry services after Brexit.

Ending the contracts with Brittany Ferries and DFDS could cost the taxpayer more than £50m.

The government bought £89m worth of capacity from the two firms. Some of that capacity might be sold, but millions of pounds could be lost.

Quote
Earlier this year, the National Audit Office estimated that the cancellation costs of all the ferry contracts would be £56.6m.

The cost is likely to only be several million pounds less than this.

A government spokesperson said: "The termination of these contracts has resulted in less cost to the taxpayer than the termination costs reported by the NAO."

The government was also forced to pay £33m to Eurotunnel, to settle a case which challenged the procurement process for the ferry contracts.

In addition, the DfT is now facing legal action from P&O Ferries, which says its rival, Eurotunnel, was given a competitive advantage by the government.

Mr Grayling, the Transport Secretary, said the cancelled contracts were part of a £4bn no-deal "insurance policy" the government had put in place.

"People would expect a responsible government to take out an insurance policy, and that's what we've done, to make sure we can deal with all the challenges in a no-deal Brexit.

"We never wanted it, we never worked for it, but we sure as certain needed to be ready for it," he said.

If extra cross-Channel freight services are needed again in the run-up to the new Brexit deadline in October, the government could have to negotiate a new set of contracts, he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48117366

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22265 on: May 1, 2019, 02:28:18 PM »
Come on Geoff, do you really believe this or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? The you-gov data isn't even really a poll, it was gathered after the event. This kind of data is generally very accurate, and if you know otherwise give me references. In any event, other data shows the same story. So does meta-analysis. Labour voters overwhelmingly voted remain. As filopastry pointed out this trend is only getting stronger. It's time to ditch the lie that the Labour leadership have some strategic 4D chess game in their heads and this is all part of the master plan. Corbyn and his clique are Brexiteers, that's the beginning, middle and end of it.

You could be right and yes i enjoy swimming against the corbyn hatefest tide in here, you could say it adds a minute balance to the threads.

 I am not sure about the clique as you call it being Brexiteers at all cost,  Corbyn and the leadership have always argued for a different Brexit one that secures workers rights etc they have never i feel just given May a blank cheque to create any brexit of her choice and if they are just brexiteers would the latest round of talks be coming to more of a fruition than it seems to be ? 

Of course it would be great to have opposed the result from day one in my opinion, but would that be effective opposition and would it leave them open to charges of not respecting the democratic outcome? 
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22266 on: May 1, 2019, 02:30:01 PM »
UK government cancels Brexit ferry deals

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48117366

The Grayling Effect.   The man has cost the country billions by now.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22267 on: May 1, 2019, 02:33:04 PM »
You could be right and yes i enjoy swimming against the corbyn hatefest tide in here, you could say it adds a minute balance to the threads.

 I am not sure about the clique as you call it being Brexiteers at all cost,  Corbyn and the leadership have always argued for a different Brexit one that secures workers rights etc they have never i feel just given May a blank cheque to create any brexit of her choice and if they are just brexiteers would the latest round of talks be coming to more of a fruition than it seems to be ? 

Of course it would be great to have opposed the result from day one in my opinion, but would that be effective opposition and would it leave them open to charges of not respecting the democratic outcome? 

Opposing from day one? Corbyn wasn't opposing it from day one. He was calling for it from minute one. At a time when even Leave leaders were steering well away from drawing conclusions from the result, he was calling for the immediate invocation of article 50. Name a politician who did so earlier than Corbyn.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22268 on: May 1, 2019, 02:41:55 PM »
Opposing from day one? Corbyn wasn't opposing it from day one. He was calling for it from minute one. At a time when even Leave leaders were steering well away from drawing conclusions from the result, he was calling for the immediate invocation of article 50. Name a politician who did so earlier than Corbyn.

Is this article 50 the only thing that matters to you ?  he may have called for it , he didnt however trigger it did he? Are you seriously suggesting the Tory party just went along with the invocation of article 50 because Corbyn told them to do it?

Edit Just too add did Corbyn tell the tories to royally fuck up the negotiations as well.

Two main reasons why we are in this mess

1 Cameron was so weak he set up a stupid referendum badly planned and worded and the outcome was not what most in here wanted.

2 The Tory government or rather May called a stupid election which weakened her and made her beholding to the DUP and the Tory negotiations have been a total disaster from day one, and she cant get the final proposal through parliament and so we are left with either a shit brexit , a referendum not all the country want or revoke article 50 none of this can be levelled at Corbyn or the Labour Party .

Although it is convenient to try.

By the way i would like it revoked but no politician in any position of power would suggest it other than the Scottish leader.



« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 02:50:52 PM by Mutton Geoff »
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22269 on: May 1, 2019, 02:55:56 PM »
Too many home truths for you?

Given what I replied to, it's becoming clear your understanding of the definition of truth is not certain

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22270 on: May 1, 2019, 02:57:24 PM »
Is this article 50 the only thing that matters to you ?  he may have called for it , he didnt however trigger it did he? Are you seriously suggesting the Tory party just went along with the invocation of article 50 because Corbyn told them to do it?

Edit Just too add did Corbyn tell the tories to royally fuck up the negotiations as well.

Two main reasons why we are in this mess

1 Cameron was so weak he set up a stupid referendum badly planned and worded and the outcome was not what most in here wanted.

2 The Tory government or rather May called a stupid election which weakened her and made her beholding to the DUP and the Tory negotiations have been a total disaster from day one, and she cant get the final proposal through parliament and so we are left with either a shit brexit , a referendum not all the country want or revoke article 50 none of this can be levelled at Corbyn or the Labour Party .

Although it is convenient to try.

By the way i would like it revoked but no politician in any position of power would suggest it other than the Scottish leader.

Post referendum, invoking article 50 was one of two factors that determined the situation we are in now. May's red lines is the other. Invoking article 50 without knowing what Brexit we are facing is one of the ways that ERG pressures May into doing their will, as we will default to no deal. Corbyn was for that before any other politician, unless you can name someone who was even earlier. Also, in that speech he made, he makes the case for immediately invoking article 50 to be following the will of the people. All reason has been left aside since in the face of this will of the people argument, as the Overton window has moved drastically towards no deal. You want to excuse Corbyn from this? Yet no one forced him to say these things. Certainly not those studies you cite, which didn't exist when he decided to say his piece.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22271 on: May 1, 2019, 03:02:22 PM »
By the way i would like it revoked but no politician in any position of power would suggest it other than the Scottish leader.

;D NO politician in ANY position of power would suggest it. Except this one.

Or this one, the First Minister of Wales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47790000

So that's both leaders of the Welsh and Scottish Governments. The two highest elected officials in each of the other mainland countries of the union. But aside from them NO politicians in ANY position of power would suggest it :D

Funny, I seem to remember someone on here complaining about the views of the Welsh being ignored Geoff
« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 03:08:02 PM by Classycara »

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22272 on: May 1, 2019, 03:09:09 PM »
;D NO politician in ANY position of power would suggest it. Except this one.

Any decent opposition leader would be able to leverage all the many problems implementing Brexit has thrown up to request a further think about it. The Labour conference has provided Corbyn with the figleaf should he require one to request a confirmatory referendum. It's Corbyn who's actively resisting this, and pressing ahead with a supposedly beneficial Brexit. And his fans will excuse him everything he does and celebrate every victory of his over the traitors.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22273 on: May 2, 2019, 09:07:07 AM »
;D NO politician in ANY position of power would suggest it. Except this one.

Or this one, the First Minister of Wales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47790000

So that's both leaders of the Welsh and Scottish Governments. The two highest elected officials in each of the other mainland countries of the union. But aside from them NO politicians in ANY position of power would suggest it :D

Funny, I seem to remember someone on here complaining about the views of the Welsh being ignored Geoff

You are as usual totally idiotic the leader of the ineffectual Welsh assembly has no real status in UK poilitics his views actually only matter in the talking shop with very little power to do anything, how i wish it was different and the assembly had teeth therefore his comments were disregarded by most mainstream political voices and as such funny enough mainly ignored except fleetingly in the media like a soundbite.

As for the last sentence i have come to expect sad & stupid comments like that from you its all you are able to do.

I must remember unless you tow the line in these threads and agree with the rest of the lynch party in here you become a target for personal attacks, until you do comply or you just give up trying.  Seems a bit Marxist to me that by the way.

Enjoy your day and your sniping attacks at people who think differently to you.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22274 on: May 2, 2019, 09:46:07 AM »
Is this article 50 the only thing that matters to you ?  he may have called for it , he didnt however trigger it did he? Are you seriously suggesting the Tory party just went along with the invocation of article 50 because Corbyn told them to do it?



Yeah it really is. What are you struggling to understand? I personally know loads of people that have voted Labour all their lives who won't vote Labour until that tit fucks off.

They all voted Remain and Labour doesn't represent any of them.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22275 on: May 2, 2019, 09:48:10 AM »
You are as usual totally idiotic the leader of the ineffectual Welsh assembly has no real status in UK poilitics his views actually only matter in the talking shop with very little power to do anything, how i wish it was different and the assembly had teeth therefore his comments were disregarded by most mainstream political voices and as such funny enough mainly ignored except fleetingly in the media like a soundbite.

As for the last sentence i have come to expect sad & stupid comments like that from you its all you are able to do.

I must remember unless you tow the line in these threads and agree with the rest of the lynch party in here you become a target for personal attacks, until you do comply or you just give up trying.  Seems a bit Marxist to me that by the way.

Enjoy your day and your sniping attacks at people who think differently to you.



"I must remember unless you tow the line in these threads and agree with the rest of the lynch party in here you become a target for personal attacks,"


Says the man, who in the same post says:

"You are as usual totally idiotic"

"i have come to expect sad & stupid comments like that from you its all you are able to do."





1st Law : A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2nd Law : A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3rd Law : A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the other 2 laws

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22276 on: May 2, 2019, 10:18:51 AM »
You are as usual totally idiotic.
As for the last sentence i have come to expect sad & stupid comments like that from you its all you are able to do. I must remember unless you tow the line in these threads and agree with the rest of the lynch party in here you become a target for personal attacks, until you do comply or you just give up trying. 

You seem to exist in a permanent state of fury Geoff. Your exaggeration ("lynch party") is matched only by your vituperation ("totally idiotic"). I would think that the lion's share of your posts consist of personal attacks on other posters for not measuring up to "RAWK standards" or what you conceive to be the correct political position. In real life I have to suppose you're quite a nice bloke. Anyone who likes cricket can't be all that bad! But on here you do very little but lash out at other posters - even when there's a match on, and everyone else is concentating on Liverpool, which is a bit odd. 
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22277 on: May 2, 2019, 10:23:45 AM »
Geoff is there a reason why you use hyperbolic and extreme statements in response to people and turn to vitriol and abuse when you're met with a different opinion than yours?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22278 on: May 2, 2019, 10:32:35 AM »


"I must remember unless you tow the line in these threads and agree with the rest of the lynch party in here you become a target for personal attacks,"


Says the man, who in the same post says:

"You are as usual totally idiotic"

"i have come to expect sad & stupid comments like that from you its all you are able to do."

ha, cheers for pointing that out. I was literally just doing the same with Geoff insulting tepid in the other thread, to realise he's reacted badly again to having a weird statement disproved.

And he's upgraded the power of RAWK posts from salem witch trial to a lynch mob now. Thats... interesting.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22279 on: May 2, 2019, 12:20:45 PM »
You seem to exist in a permanent state of fury Geoff. Your exaggeration ("lynch party") is matched only by your vituperation ("totally idiotic"). I would think that the lion's share of your posts consist of personal attacks on other posters for not measuring up to "RAWK standards" or what you conceive to be the correct political position. In real life I have to suppose you're quite a nice bloke. Anyone who likes cricket can't be all that bad! But on here you do very little but lash out at other posters - even when there's a match on, and everyone else is concentating on Liverpool, which is a bit odd. 

Well given your MO is personal attacks and snide remarks the old adage about people in glass houses throwing stones apply, and yes when somebody puts up a snide remark trying to belittle my support for a club i have supported for sixty years, angry doesnt actually cover it .

Anybody such as Dave (far more than myself) and the few others who have tried to counter some of the constant negativity in here and the other threads come under attack from the same few people, they never want a discussion its simply one way traffic and you are one of the ring leaders.

However you got one thing right i am ok at Cricket and with the rest of my life.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979