Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
57 (8.9%)
Mays Deal!
13 (2%)
No Brexit!
463 (72.5%)
Don't Know
9 (1.4%)
Don't Care
12 (1.9%)
I don't live in the UK
85 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 639

Author Topic: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.  (Read 590998 times)

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22240 on: May 1, 2019, 03:09:29 AM »

In reality, as Bradshaw says, there will be no deal with the government, and no Labour government any time soon, so they'll be backing a second referendum. Everything else is there for election purposes. In reality, Labour are doing just fine.
You sure about that?

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Offline Tepid T₂O

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22241 on: May 1, 2019, 07:16:14 AM »
You sure about that?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1123333794730250241


Hmm.. politics...

I suspect this is a ploy by one of the partys.  When it all collapses they can say ‘but we were so close, it’s all their fault.’
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Offline Andy @ Allerton

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22242 on: May 1, 2019, 07:53:41 AM »
Then voting against Labour in the European elections won't make a blind bit of difference ;). Seriously, though, both sides are just going through the motions, neither of them have any intention of coming up with a deal. Labour especially, given that the government is imploding.

Look, I have no issue with you, you're a Lib Dem supporter and you're trying to convince people to vote Lib Dem. Fair play to you for that.

But let's not pretend it has anything to do with Brexit. Brexit won't be decided at European elections, and probably not even at a general election. It will be decided in a second referendum. So if you want remain to win, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to start convincing Brexiters to vote remain, rather than trying to convince remainers to vote for another party. And, with this in mind, calling remainer Labour voters stupid can only be counter-productive.

Well Labour are clearly a Remain Party. Corbyn is clearly a Brexit enabler.

If you vote for Labour as a Remainer with Corbyn in charge and you want to have someone represent you then you're an idiot.

The best outcome is that we have a breakaway party that represents Labour views and also represents Remain voters as we don't seem to have that at present.

Corbyn's problem is that given he's so engaged in the idea of Brexit (Something he's been obviously dreaming of since the 70s - look at all his past votes and motions on the subject) that he believes that eventually Remain voters will vote Labour regardless just to get the Tories out. But there are millions of Labour voters that feel betrayed and will fuck him and his party off.

I'd imagine most would return to Labour if he fucked off, but many won't. That he's so keen to drive this wedge into Labour and its voters is something that seems pretty indefensible. His 'Flying colourful glowing magic unicorn' of a fucking 'Labour Brexit' that magics all the 'nasty fings away innit' is so clearly fucking stupid you'd have to be off your chump to agree with it - unless you're a Labour Brexit voter and I think we can all agree they are genuinely as thick as pigshit. Enabling a Tory Brexit that will fuck poor people and the vunerable over for nearly half a century is now somehow good? Really?

Is this what Labour is supposed to stand for fucking over the NHS, Services across the country and people everywhere? And this is a good idea and something we 'should' vote for.

Well, speaking for myself he can fuck off and the horse he rode in on.
Brexit. As stupid as you can imagine.

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Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22243 on: May 1, 2019, 08:18:45 AM »
You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

The Tories won 4 general elections in a row between 1979 and 1992, with the last being the highest vote ever. Does this mean we should vote Tory for ever more?

And more recently, the Tories have won 3 general elections in a row: 2010, 2015, 2017. Does this mean we should give up voting non-Tory in the future? After all, Labour could win every MEP election, and it won't change a thing in Parliament.

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Offline Devon Red

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22244 on: May 1, 2019, 09:34:52 AM »
You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

Not true, Labour abstained on the first PV vote and failed to whip the others with any enthusiasm or consequences for the rebels, even on the front bench.

Also bollocks on the manifesto; it's an opportunity to clarify and amend policy, what MEPs can or cannot vote on is not the issue. The manifesto actually puts Labour further away from fully supporting a PV as it once against places barriers. Every time it looks like a PV is the only option left standing the Labour leadership restate the provisos that had previously been proven impossible. A general election is not happening. Why restate it?

Do you not believe Barry Gardiner when he says that Labour will facilitate Brexit? Do you think he's not speaking for the leadership?

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22245 on: May 1, 2019, 10:12:10 AM »
That's not what he means. He's saying that lots of Remainers WILL vote for Labour, whether you like it or not. So if you call Labour a Brexit Party all that will do is give every Leaver the ammunition to say that all those REMAIN voters' votes are actually Brexit votes because they are for a 'Brexit Party'.

The truth is irrelevant; it's how it will be spun that matters. Ergo constantly calling Labour a Brexit Party (even if that's what you believe) will actually be counterproductive.

That's the extent of his point. He has slagged off Labour to the wall and back in his other tweets and articles. But this tweet was a pragmatic point.

Labour Remainers voting for a Brexit party is what will give Leavers such ammunition, not the people who will merely point that out (and if fellow Remainers don't as you claim Dunt is suggesting, Leavers will more than happily do so) The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" springs to mind.

I'm sick of mollycoddling voters. If you voted for Brexit and you lose your job over it, it's ultimately your own fault. Likewise, if you vote for Brexit Labour and your vote is, not unreasonably, construed as a vote for Brexit, that's your fault. The pragmatic thing for Remainers is to simply not vote for a Brexit party. If they still aren't prepared to do so, fine but take responsibility for it. If it rains tomorrow, it'll be the fucking fault of non-Labour voting Remainers according to some.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22246 on: May 1, 2019, 10:17:26 AM »
I don’t know why we are even discussing this. Labour is a Brexit party. It is constantly throwing up obstacles to a second referendum. And while it may not be agitating for Brexit it is relying on drift to take us there. It’s been doing this since the morning Corbyn wanted A50 triggered.

There is a contradiction of course. Labour voters are mainly Remainers. Labour members are mainly Remainers. Labour MPs are mainly Remainers. Labour’s EU candidates are all Remainers.

But here is the tragedy. It doesn’t matter. If the party was truly democratic it would do of course. But it isn’t. It is actually an oligarchy not a democracy. The voters, the members, the representatives have no say when it comes to the question of Europe. It’s exclusively a matter for Corbyn and the unelected party officers who serve him. They are all ideological Brexiteers and they write policy and decide tactics.

Labour is a Brexit party.

If you’re a Remainer then it’s a bit stupid to vote for them.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22248 on: May 1, 2019, 10:45:05 AM »
Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.
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Offline sms1986

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22249 on: May 1, 2019, 11:07:11 AM »
This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%. ;D

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

Offline Devon Red

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22250 on: May 1, 2019, 11:19:54 AM »
I like this article from Alex Andreou; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/01/the-remain-tactic-is-now-simple-give-labour-a-bloody-nose

"strategic voting is irrelevant, the number of MEPs is irrelevant, which Remain party you favour is irrelevant, how well Farage does is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is to show Labour that there is no route to No.10 unless they change tack. The only strategy is to give Labour a bloody nose, in as emphatic a way as possible."


Even if you are a lifelong Labour supporter, even if you will vote for them in local and general elections, even if you support Corbyn's policies - please, if you believe that we are better off in the EU than out, lend your vote at the EU elections to a remain party. It really is the only way to show Labour how much this matters to its voters.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22251 on: May 1, 2019, 11:40:15 AM »
I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

Scottish Greens - 81%
Lib Dems - 80%
Sinn Fein - 78%

The last two being quite a surprise...
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22252 on: May 1, 2019, 12:01:38 PM »
Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.

What really sticks in my throat is that when the Labour Leadership election took place in 2015, most sections of my union, Unite including my sector recommended backing Andy Burnham for leader. Yet because Len fucking McCluskey is chief executive of Unite, his recommendation of Corbyn suddenly became the stance of "Unite the Union" and all its members - it isn't!!

https://unitetheunion.org/what-we-do/unite-in-politics/

I'm gutted because I think Andy Burnham would have been a great leader and would probably cruise to a GE victory against this lot. I've read on here that posters have left the labour party because of the direction that the party is taking but surely people need to keep their membership and vote against Corbyn at these leadership contests? Although I'm not sure entirely how the leadership voting works as it seems very much stacked it favour of Corbyn as he also won the 2016 leadership election quite easily. 
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22253 on: May 1, 2019, 12:21:42 PM »
A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

You keep churning out this garbage and you are not alone,  in the real world Labour members tend to follow the policies agreed on in conference not just a small cabal in the leadership, you seem to think the massive elections majorities were simply these new members who many in here deem as unworthy of being a member, this wasnt the case many very experienced  Labour members voted for Corbyn twice as it happens if that not democracy what is and still support the policies the leadership and the party voted for ? 

Such was and seemingly still is the dirth of talent in the Right and Centre right of this party.

You cannot blame Corbyn for being the only candidate who could attract new and old members such was the lack lustre performance of the other three. However you have not really respecting democracy is it.

What i find laughable is you all talk about democracy but for many in here it's just democracy when it suits, from the day Corbyn got democratically elected the first time people in here and in the PLP and Media have openly criticised him as a person, sticking the knife in on a daily basis,  not his policies though in the main excluding Brexit.

Many latch on to any spurious tit bits,  false facts, gossip in any right wing press coverage and embelished it to the umpteeth degree to make more of it than it originally merited.

 This actually make the criticisms that are merited quite meaningless at times to me in a boy cried wolf scenario.
 
You are simply and always have been royally pissed off because the legacy from Blair ceased to continue and for you a case of  god help us a lefty got in for once.

  What the present leadership is doing is actually the same way of working as previous Labour leaders with their close friends in prominant positions for example Milne = Campbell seems to have the same influence no more and certainly no less. Much maligned Barry Gardiner as much a one track hot head as Mandelson for example.  I guess it was alright then though for a small group to propel us using lies into a war that we did not have to take part in.

As for the other banal comment  'We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’

yes the referendum might be called rigged but if or until that is legally challenged and admitted technically we needed to abide by the outcome, however if this situation alters and a court makes the result null & void  then you can say we do not regonise the result and go for a new referendum.

I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22254 on: May 1, 2019, 12:32:22 PM »
I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.

Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22255 on: May 1, 2019, 12:54:52 PM »
Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

Too many home truths for you?
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22256 on: May 1, 2019, 12:55:55 PM »
Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?
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Offline Devon Red

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22257 on: May 1, 2019, 12:57:36 PM »
I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22258 on: May 1, 2019, 01:04:40 PM »
It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.

He's now going to claim this is what he meant by "split".
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22259 on: May 1, 2019, 01:09:44 PM »
Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?

Keep living in the past fella Saint Tony isnt coming back.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22260 on: May 1, 2019, 01:12:48 PM »
It's a good question and something ive already posted about in the past.
Would ex Labour remain supporters forgive Corbyns Labour if they did a uturn and called for another referendum with remain as a option.
I think we have to remind ourselves how the country got where it is today, why is the country so split. lies, our politicians convinced leave voters a successful brexit that protects jobs and the economy is possible, they argued we can rid our selves of the EU rules and regulation etc and look forward to brexit positively. Corbyns Labour argued all these points while arguing we must respect why leave voters voted leave, the thing is it's not just about Labour calling another referendum, they have to win it as well to be forgiven, Labour should have been educating the public over the last 2 yrs, they chose to lie to them, now they have to try and convince those voters that there is no successful Brexit. they made that task of winning a confirmatory referendum far harder. Corbyns Labour should have been arguing for a confirmatory referendum from day 1, they should have been educating the public on why we need 1 instead of repeating the hard rights lies.
« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:15:07 PM by oldfordie »
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22261 on: May 1, 2019, 01:37:26 PM »
It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.


You know that for certain how ?

Polls are not very accurate most of the time depends on the way a question is put and people lie anyway and depends on the sample, which is why i never trust polls not matter if i agree with the result or not.

Whichever way Labour go they alienate voters and what's worse with the Labour leavers it could send them over to the likes of Farage.

Personally i would go for remain but that would still be brave move for the party to take on in the present political climate.

The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22262 on: May 1, 2019, 01:37:34 PM »
It's a good question and something ive already posted about in the past.
Would ex Labour remain supporters forgive Corbyns Labour if they did a uturn and called for another referendum with remain as a option.
I think we have to remind ourselves how the country got where it is today, why is the country so split. lies, our politicians convinced leave voters a successful brexit that protects jobs and the economy is possible, they argued we can rid our selves of the EU rules and regulation etc and look forward to brexit positively. Corbyns Labour argued all these points while arguing we must respect why leave voters voted leave, the thing is it's not just about Labour calling another referendum, they have to win it as well to be forgiven, Labour should have been educating the public over the last 2 yrs, they chose to lie to them, now they have to try and convince those voters that there is no successful Brexit. they made that task of winning a confirmatory referendum far harder. Corbyns Labour should have been arguing for a confirmatory referendum from day 1, they should have been educating the public on why we need 1 instead of repeating the hard rights lies.

The Overton window was a big thing during the 2015 leadership election. It was why Corbyn was nominated, to move the debate leftwards. At the time of the referendum result, Brexit was supposed to mean something like Norway, which Farage was advocating. The Overton window on Brexit has now moved to the point where a large portion the populace favours no deal. Corbyn, who should have been moving the Overton window to educate the voters on how Brexit is not practical, was the first to call for its immediate implementation.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22263 on: May 1, 2019, 01:38:53 PM »
Keep living in the past fella Saint Tony isnt coming back.

I point to Corbyn's position on Brexit, and you point to Tony Blair.
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Offline Tepid T₂O

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22264 on: May 1, 2019, 01:41:49 PM »
11 years since Blair left.

14years years since labour last won an election.

Blair is the past, but we can learn lessons from labour successes in previous elections I think.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22265 on: May 1, 2019, 01:47:18 PM »
Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
Lab 2017 voters: 71/29

Labour voters have become significantly more "Remainy" over time as well, hardly a shock given where they did well in the 2017 election, Remain strongholds.

And yes there are margins of error with polling but I don't think it likely that a poll showing 71:29 means 50:50 in reality.

Labour's problems with Leave voters isn't just Brexit, it is that those voters tend to be a lot more socially illiberal than average which obviously pushes them towards the more populist right, a lot of those voters would be difficult for Labour to win back even if they went full Hard Brexit

« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:52:01 PM by filopastry »

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22266 on: May 1, 2019, 01:52:14 PM »
The Overton window was a big thing during the 2015 leadership election. It was why Corbyn was nominated, to move the debate leftwards. At the time of the referendum result, Brexit was supposed to mean something like Norway, which Farage was advocating. The Overton window on Brexit has now moved to the point where a large portion the populace favours no deal. Corbyn, who should have been moving the Overton window to educate the voters on how Brexit is not practical, was the first to call for its immediate implementation.
Yep. Corbyn won the Labour leadership election after the referendum arguing for a Norway deal, we know what happened next. I didn't hear anyone screaming betrayal back then,May laid down her red lines as the Brexit people voted for, those red lines make a Norway or Custom union deal impossible. everything changed when May laid down those red lines, a no deal became a certainty unless she dropped those red lines.
"Brexit is like a political Ponzi scheme. It was a political movement that promised impossible returns: a swift, painless, problem-free departure from the EU."

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22267 on: May 1, 2019, 01:53:05 PM »
Andy Beckett (The split decision, G2, 20 July) contends that the current Labour party crisis parallels events in 1981 – which led to the formation of the SDP – and that Jeremy Corbyn is a similar figure now to Michael Foot then: “a faintly otherworldly leftwinger in his late 60s”. This suggestion is misleading because it ignores the fact that our “Overton window” – through which the boundaries between political orthodoxy and heresy are defined – has shifted very considerably to the right in the past 30 years. Political philosophies and policies that would in 1981 have seemed “loony right” are now viewed as mainstream, and formerly social-democrat positions are commonly reviled as somehow Marxist.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/24/framing-jeremy-corbyn-overton-window

Trident excepted, most of what Corbyn stands for today is closer to Shirley Williams than to Michael Foot. This is why Corbyn is so popular. It is not that he is hard left: it is because the current position of the Overton window is repellent to millions of ordinary citizens who wish to live in a more decent society than ours has become.
Bob Gilmurray

Funny you should mention that.



The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22268 on: May 1, 2019, 01:59:11 PM »
I point to Corbyn's position on Brexit, and you point to Tony Blair.

In a way i pointed out the very thing you criticise Corbyn for I.e. small group politics, Blair worked in exactly the same way even excluding the deputy leader from major discussions in the same way the current one is treated and including a PR man with way too much power in decision making but i guess you were happy then with Campbell doing exactly what Milne appears to be doing now,  personally i wasnt happy with Campbell and i feel the same about Milne.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22269 on: May 1, 2019, 02:06:16 PM »
In a way i pointed out the very thing you criticise Corbyn for I.e. small group politics, Blair worked in exactly the same way even excluding the deputy leader from major discussions in the same way the current one is treated and including a PR man with way too much power in decision making but i guess you were happy then with Campbell doing exactly what Milne appears to be doing now,  personally i wasnt happy with Campbell and i feel the same about Milne.

I care little about the form of politics, as long as Labour fights to keep us in the EU. Whatever my views about Corbyn, I never envisaged myself voting anything other than Labour. Until Corbyn said his piece on the morning of the referendum. All your arguments about Labour constituencies are irrelevant. Corbyn didn't have access to that information when he demanded the immediate invocation of article 50. You've dismissed polls showing how Labour voters overwhelmingly favour Remain. What information did Corbyn have on the morning of 24th June 2016, that prompted him, even before the Leave leaders, to demand that article 50 should be immediately invoked?
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22270 on: May 1, 2019, 02:15:46 PM »
You know that for certain how ?

Polls are not very accurate most of the time depends on the way a question is put and people lie anyway and depends on the sample, which is why i never trust polls not matter if i agree with the result or not.

Whichever way Labour go they alienate voters and what's worse with the Labour leavers it could send them over to the likes of Farage.

Personally i would go for remain but that would still be brave move for the party to take on in the present political climate.

Come on Geoff, do you really believe this or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? The you-gov data isn't even really a poll, it was gathered after the event. This kind of data is generally very accurate, and if you know otherwise give me references. In any event, other data shows the same story. So does meta-analysis. Labour voters overwhelmingly voted remain. As filopastry pointed out this trend is only getting stronger. It's time to ditch the lie that the Labour leadership have some strategic 4D chess game in their heads and this is all part of the master plan. Corbyn and his clique are Brexiteers, that's the beginning, middle and end of it.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22271 on: May 1, 2019, 02:19:39 PM »
UK government cancels Brexit ferry deals

Quote
The Department for Transport is cancelling contracts to provide extra ferry services after Brexit.

Ending the contracts with Brittany Ferries and DFDS could cost the taxpayer more than £50m.

The government bought £89m worth of capacity from the two firms. Some of that capacity might be sold, but millions of pounds could be lost.

Quote
Earlier this year, the National Audit Office estimated that the cancellation costs of all the ferry contracts would be £56.6m.

The cost is likely to only be several million pounds less than this.

A government spokesperson said: "The termination of these contracts has resulted in less cost to the taxpayer than the termination costs reported by the NAO."

The government was also forced to pay £33m to Eurotunnel, to settle a case which challenged the procurement process for the ferry contracts.

In addition, the DfT is now facing legal action from P&O Ferries, which says its rival, Eurotunnel, was given a competitive advantage by the government.

Mr Grayling, the Transport Secretary, said the cancelled contracts were part of a £4bn no-deal "insurance policy" the government had put in place.

"People would expect a responsible government to take out an insurance policy, and that's what we've done, to make sure we can deal with all the challenges in a no-deal Brexit.

"We never wanted it, we never worked for it, but we sure as certain needed to be ready for it," he said.

If extra cross-Channel freight services are needed again in the run-up to the new Brexit deadline in October, the government could have to negotiate a new set of contracts, he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48117366

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22272 on: May 1, 2019, 02:28:18 PM »
Come on Geoff, do you really believe this or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? The you-gov data isn't even really a poll, it was gathered after the event. This kind of data is generally very accurate, and if you know otherwise give me references. In any event, other data shows the same story. So does meta-analysis. Labour voters overwhelmingly voted remain. As filopastry pointed out this trend is only getting stronger. It's time to ditch the lie that the Labour leadership have some strategic 4D chess game in their heads and this is all part of the master plan. Corbyn and his clique are Brexiteers, that's the beginning, middle and end of it.

You could be right and yes i enjoy swimming against the corbyn hatefest tide in here, you could say it adds a minute balance to the threads.

 I am not sure about the clique as you call it being Brexiteers at all cost,  Corbyn and the leadership have always argued for a different Brexit one that secures workers rights etc they have never i feel just given May a blank cheque to create any brexit of her choice and if they are just brexiteers would the latest round of talks be coming to more of a fruition than it seems to be ? 

Of course it would be great to have opposed the result from day one in my opinion, but would that be effective opposition and would it leave them open to charges of not respecting the democratic outcome? 
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22273 on: May 1, 2019, 02:30:01 PM »
UK government cancels Brexit ferry deals

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48117366

The Grayling Effect.   The man has cost the country billions by now.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22274 on: May 1, 2019, 02:33:04 PM »
You could be right and yes i enjoy swimming against the corbyn hatefest tide in here, you could say it adds a minute balance to the threads.

 I am not sure about the clique as you call it being Brexiteers at all cost,  Corbyn and the leadership have always argued for a different Brexit one that secures workers rights etc they have never i feel just given May a blank cheque to create any brexit of her choice and if they are just brexiteers would the latest round of talks be coming to more of a fruition than it seems to be ? 

Of course it would be great to have opposed the result from day one in my opinion, but would that be effective opposition and would it leave them open to charges of not respecting the democratic outcome? 

Opposing from day one? Corbyn wasn't opposing it from day one. He was calling for it from minute one. At a time when even Leave leaders were steering well away from drawing conclusions from the result, he was calling for the immediate invocation of article 50. Name a politician who did so earlier than Corbyn.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22275 on: May 1, 2019, 02:41:55 PM »
Opposing from day one? Corbyn wasn't opposing it from day one. He was calling for it from minute one. At a time when even Leave leaders were steering well away from drawing conclusions from the result, he was calling for the immediate invocation of article 50. Name a politician who did so earlier than Corbyn.

Is this article 50 the only thing that matters to you ?  he may have called for it , he didnt however trigger it did he? Are you seriously suggesting the Tory party just went along with the invocation of article 50 because Corbyn told them to do it?

Edit Just too add did Corbyn tell the tories to royally fuck up the negotiations as well.

Two main reasons why we are in this mess

1 Cameron was so weak he set up a stupid referendum badly planned and worded and the outcome was not what most in here wanted.

2 The Tory government or rather May called a stupid election which weakened her and made her beholding to the DUP and the Tory negotiations have been a total disaster from day one, and she cant get the final proposal through parliament and so we are left with either a shit brexit , a referendum not all the country want or revoke article 50 none of this can be levelled at Corbyn or the Labour Party .

Although it is convenient to try.

By the way i would like it revoked but no politician in any position of power would suggest it other than the Scottish leader.



« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 02:50:52 PM by Mutton Geoff »
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22276 on: May 1, 2019, 02:55:56 PM »
Too many home truths for you?

Given what I replied to, it's becoming clear your understanding of the definition of truth is not certain

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22277 on: May 1, 2019, 02:57:24 PM »
Is this article 50 the only thing that matters to you ?  he may have called for it , he didnt however trigger it did he? Are you seriously suggesting the Tory party just went along with the invocation of article 50 because Corbyn told them to do it?

Edit Just too add did Corbyn tell the tories to royally fuck up the negotiations as well.

Two main reasons why we are in this mess

1 Cameron was so weak he set up a stupid referendum badly planned and worded and the outcome was not what most in here wanted.

2 The Tory government or rather May called a stupid election which weakened her and made her beholding to the DUP and the Tory negotiations have been a total disaster from day one, and she cant get the final proposal through parliament and so we are left with either a shit brexit , a referendum not all the country want or revoke article 50 none of this can be levelled at Corbyn or the Labour Party .

Although it is convenient to try.

By the way i would like it revoked but no politician in any position of power would suggest it other than the Scottish leader.

Post referendum, invoking article 50 was one of two factors that determined the situation we are in now. May's red lines is the other. Invoking article 50 without knowing what Brexit we are facing is one of the ways that ERG pressures May into doing their will, as we will default to no deal. Corbyn was for that before any other politician, unless you can name someone who was even earlier. Also, in that speech he made, he makes the case for immediately invoking article 50 to be following the will of the people. All reason has been left aside since in the face of this will of the people argument, as the Overton window has moved drastically towards no deal. You want to excuse Corbyn from this? Yet no one forced him to say these things. Certainly not those studies you cite, which didn't exist when he decided to say his piece.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22278 on: May 1, 2019, 03:02:22 PM »
By the way i would like it revoked but no politician in any position of power would suggest it other than the Scottish leader.

;D NO politician in ANY position of power would suggest it. Except this one.

Or this one, the First Minister of Wales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47790000

So that's both leaders of the Welsh and Scottish Governments. The two highest elected officials in each of the other mainland countries of the union. But aside from them NO politicians in ANY position of power would suggest it :D

Funny, I seem to remember someone on here complaining about the views of the Welsh being ignored Geoff
« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 03:08:02 PM by Classycara »

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22279 on: May 1, 2019, 03:09:09 PM »
;D NO politician in ANY position of power would suggest it. Except this one.

Any decent opposition leader would be able to leverage all the many problems implementing Brexit has thrown up to request a further think about it. The Labour conference has provided Corbyn with the figleaf should he require one to request a confirmatory referendum. It's Corbyn who's actively resisting this, and pressing ahead with a supposedly beneficial Brexit. And his fans will excuse him everything he does and celebrate every victory of his over the traitors.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258