Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 995320 times)

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #160 on: September 4, 2018, 02:29:02 AM »
With the left in total control of the NEC now and also winning 38 out of 42 positions on the Labour national policy forum.

It will be interesting what happens at conference and if there will be any policy changes. Not sure if a people vote will be backed I personally would want to force a GE.

Labour voters turn against Brexit as 1.6m people switch from Leave to Remain.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-supporters-turn-against-brexit-13186920
So 1.6mill Labour leave voters have changed their minds and want to remain in the EU but the NEC and Labour members don't want another referendum to give us the opportunity to remain in the EU.
Why, Is Labour policy now to remain in the EU. why should people who want to remain in the EU vote for Labour if Labours policy is to leave the EU?
Not that it makes much difference, a peoples vote has now run out of time, we will have to extend art 50 deadline with the EUs blessing before we will be able to have another peoples vote.
Ray Bradshaw.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #161 on: September 4, 2018, 06:14:18 AM »
With the left in total control of the NEC now and also winning 38 out of 42 positions on the Labour national policy forum.

It will be interesting what happens at conference and if there will be any policy changes. Not sure if a people vote will be backed I personally would want to force a GE.

Labour voters turn against Brexit as 1.6m people switch from Leave to Remain.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-supporters-turn-against-brexit-13186920

What’s the point of forcing a general election if there’s been no debate and no clarity on Brexit or a second referendum?

I think we can put the ‘Jeremy on the right side of history’ bollocks to bed now. A few months back you said Corbyn was ‘playing a blinder’ by sitting on the fence between the majority of Labour voters who were strong remainers and the minority in the heartlands who voted leave.

By the time of the next election it’s probable that Labour voters across the country will be remainers who would prefer a second referendum, and the leadership will be seen as unrepresentative of their views.

Renationalising the railways will be seen as a vanity project when working people see their jobs moving to Europe and the cost of goods and services go up. Add in the prospect of reigniting the Troubles, pain in the arse travel and work restrictions in Europe and the general sense that the UK is a second rate country....  oh and Scottish independence back on the table...

Labour has spent two years sitting on the fence obsessed with internal politics and with defending the indefensible in the anti-semitism row instead of leading the debate over Europe.

Labour had a chance to lead and have utterly fucked it up.
« Last Edit: September 4, 2018, 06:16:08 AM by Alan_X »
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #162 on: September 4, 2018, 06:44:43 AM »
With the left in total control of the NEC now and also winning 38 out of 42 positions on the Labour national policy forum.

It will be interesting what happens at conference and if there will be any policy changes. Not sure if a people vote will be backed I personally would want to force a GE.

Labour voters turn against Brexit as 1.6m people switch from Leave to Remain.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-supporters-turn-against-brexit-13186920
A general election? Both parties back Brexit.

It would be a waste of time.
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With courage, nothing is impossible.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #163 on: September 4, 2018, 08:33:58 AM »
By the time of the next election it’s probable that Labour voters across the country will be remainers who would prefer a second referendum, and the leadership will be seen as unrepresentative of their views.
The leadership can always change their mind
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #164 on: September 4, 2018, 11:29:06 AM »
Six months left to either tory or labour to change their minds....  :butt
Here's hoping..... 
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #165 on: September 4, 2018, 11:43:19 AM »
The leadership can always change their mind

Indeed they can. But the reason given for pushing forward with Brexit is the June 2016 vote. Why would they change because more Labour voters have moved to the Remain side when a large majority of Labour voters were already Remain?

The leadership have gambled with all of our futures over Brexit in a bid for No10 and the opportunity to renationalise the railways (which they could do anyway).  They could have come out against Brexit at anytime over the last two years because it is evidently going to hurt working people and the less well off.


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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #166 on: September 4, 2018, 11:57:07 AM »
What’s the point of forcing a general election if there’s been no debate and no clarity on Brexit or a second referendum?

I think we can put the ‘Jeremy on the right side of history’ bollocks to bed now. A few months back you said Corbyn was ‘playing a blinder’ by sitting on the fence between the majority of Labour voters who were strong remainers and the minority in the heartlands who voted leave.

By the time of the next election it’s probable that Labour voters across the country will be remainers who would prefer a second referendum, and the leadership will be seen as unrepresentative of their views.

Renationalising the railways will be seen as a vanity project when working people see their jobs moving to Europe and the cost of goods and services go up. Add in the prospect of reigniting the Troubles, pain in the arse travel and work restrictions in Europe and the general sense that the UK is a second rate country....  oh and Scottish independence back on the table...

Labour has spent two years sitting on the fence obsessed with internal politics and with defending the indefensible in the anti-semitism row instead of leading the debate over Europe.

Labour had a chance to lead and have utterly fucked it up.
momentum I think are going to have a vote on a second referendum but at the end of the year so it won’t embarrass the leadership

And that last two paragraphs sums it up nicely

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #167 on: September 4, 2018, 12:17:31 PM »
Secone referendum looks like the only option to me to avoid Brexit, as others have pointed out a GE is a pipedream, the Tories sure as hell won't be calling for one with the polls this tight, no matter how split they are over Brexit.

Nor would I trust the current Labour leadership to look to avoid Brexit even if they did get into power.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #168 on: September 4, 2018, 12:17:44 PM »
History has already been wrote, Labour have only fought against a Tory Brexit, they've been arguing a Tory Brexit won't protect jobs and the economy, that's all true.
History will also remember Labour making the same promises as the Torys, only a Labour Brexit will defend jobs and the economy.
No brexit protects jobs and the economy.
Ray Bradshaw.

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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #169 on: September 4, 2018, 12:42:54 PM »
Second referendum looks like the only option to me to avoid Brexit.....

I wouldn't be too hopeful of that, certainly not calls for one from Labour....



Momentum has decided not to take a position on any Brexit motions – including calls for a second referendum – at Labour’s party conference.

The pro-Corbyn grassroots campaign group is to launch a consultation of its members on Brexit later in the year.

A petition, signed by more than 4,000 members of Momentum, urging the organisation to canvas opinion in its ranks, has been calling for a conference vote on holding a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

Support for the idea has been growing among Labour members - and if the influential group choose to throw its weight behind it, it would increase pressure on the party leadership.

After the petition reached the 4,000 signatures needed to trigger a ballot of Momentum members, the pro-EU members of Momentum had been expecting a consultation to take place before conference.

The decision to delay the consultation has disappointed the campaigners behind the petition.

Alena Ivanova, the Momentum member who started it, told the Labour List: “This is not the outcome that we had hoped for but is nonetheless a step forward from the situation last year. It would be untenable for Momentum to take a position without consulting its members.

“This is also not the end of the campaign. We will continue to collect signatures, and we are hopeful that we will reach the threshold in time for Momentum to back a People’s Vote at conference.”

The consultation will be a broad questionnaire, and will not be a ballot solely on a vote on the final deal, Momentum said in a statement.

The content of the consultation is being finalised, but is likely to include questions on how members feel about the progress of the negotiations, the potential impact of Brexit and whether Labour should vote down a Tory Brexit deal if it doesn’t meet Labour’s six tests.

Laura Parker, Momentum’s national coordinator, said: “As the Tories continue to bungle Brexit and risk Britain crashing out with no deal, we will, like other organisations from the Labour movement, be asking our members what they think about the issue - and supporting the Labour leadership to defeat this disastrous Tory Brexit in Parliament if it fails Labour’s six tests.”


Huff'n'Stuff

...Nor would I trust the current Labour leadership to look to avoid Brexit even if they did get into power.

Yep, it looks that way to me.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #170 on: September 4, 2018, 12:47:11 PM »
I wouldn't be too hopeful of that, certainly not calls for one from Labour....



Momentum has decided not to take a position on any Brexit motions – including calls for a second referendum – at Labour’s party conference.

The pro-Corbyn grassroots campaign group is to launch a consultation of its members on Brexit later in the year.

A petition, signed by more than 4,000 members of Momentum, urging the organisation to canvas opinion in its ranks, has been calling for a conference vote on holding a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

Support for the idea has been growing among Labour members - and if the influential group choose to throw its weight behind it, it would increase pressure on the party leadership.

After the petition reached the 4,000 signatures needed to trigger a ballot of Momentum members, the pro-EU members of Momentum had been expecting a consultation to take place before conference.

The decision to delay the consultation has disappointed the campaigners behind the petition.

Alena Ivanova, the Momentum member who started it, told the Labour List: “This is not the outcome that we had hoped for but is nonetheless a step forward from the situation last year. It would be untenable for Momentum to take a position without consulting its members.

“This is also not the end of the campaign. We will continue to collect signatures, and we are hopeful that we will reach the threshold in time for Momentum to back a People’s Vote at conference.”

The consultation will be a broad questionnaire, and will not be a ballot solely on a vote on the final deal, Momentum said in a statement.

The content of the consultation is being finalised, but is likely to include questions on how members feel about the progress of the negotiations, the potential impact of Brexit and whether Labour should vote down a Tory Brexit deal if it doesn’t meet Labour’s six tests.

Laura Parker, Momentum’s national coordinator, said: “As the Tories continue to bungle Brexit and risk Britain crashing out with no deal, we will, like other organisations from the Labour movement, be asking our members what they think about the issue - and supporting the Labour leadership to defeat this disastrous Tory Brexit in Parliament if it fails Labour’s six tests.”


Huff'n'Stuff

Yep, it looks that way to me.

Spineless c*nts.
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09/03/2011 08:04
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #171 on: September 4, 2018, 12:58:43 PM »
Indeed they can. But the reason given for pushing forward with Brexit is the June 2016 vote. Why would they change because more Labour voters have moved to the Remain side when a large majority of Labour voters were already Remain?

The leadership have gambled with all of our futures over Brexit in a bid for No10 and the opportunity to renationalise the railways (which they could do anyway).  They could have come out against Brexit at anytime over the last two years because it is evidently going to hurt working people and the less well off.
The labour leadership didn't gamble, Cameron did - he gets away blameless in your above analysis.

We need time for people to realise how shite Brexit will be, no good coming out with it straight away as then the media would have crucified Corbyn even more and got the leave hype to a much higher degree. You say majority of labour voters already voted remain, but a high number of labour constituencies voted leave "Most Labour MPs represent a constituency that voted Leave" So it isn't as easy as what you're suggesting. The media would A. Portray the leader as a backstabbing Commie and B. Would smear all the MPs for not representing their constituencies.

What Corbyn has done by not doing very much is perfect - he allowed the Tories to castrate themselves, Johnson resigned, JRM is sniping at the PM, the government's own studies don't show much benefit of Brexit. And as pointed out the public opinion in swaying to a majority remain. All that needs to happen is a labour manifesto promise of a second referendum upon a majority government. 
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #172 on: September 4, 2018, 01:01:09 PM »
I wouldn't be too hopeful of that, certainly not calls for one from Labour....



Momentum has decided not to take a position on any Brexit motions – including calls for a second referendum – at Labour’s party conference.

The pro-Corbyn grassroots campaign group is to launch a consultation of its members on Brexit later in the year.

A petition, signed by more than 4,000 members of Momentum, urging the organisation to canvas opinion in its ranks, has been calling for a conference vote on holding a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

Support for the idea has been growing among Labour members - and if the influential group choose to throw its weight behind it, it would increase pressure on the party leadership.

After the petition reached the 4,000 signatures needed to trigger a ballot of Momentum members, the pro-EU members of Momentum had been expecting a consultation to take place before conference.

The decision to delay the consultation has disappointed the campaigners behind the petition.

Alena Ivanova, the Momentum member who started it, told the Labour List: “This is not the outcome that we had hoped for but is nonetheless a step forward from the situation last year. It would be untenable for Momentum to take a position without consulting its members.

“This is also not the end of the campaign. We will continue to collect signatures, and we are hopeful that we will reach the threshold in time for Momentum to back a People’s Vote at conference.”

The consultation will be a broad questionnaire, and will not be a ballot solely on a vote on the final deal, Momentum said in a statement.

The content of the consultation is being finalised, but is likely to include questions on how members feel about the progress of the negotiations, the potential impact of Brexit and whether Labour should vote down a Tory Brexit deal if it doesn’t meet Labour’s six tests.

Laura Parker, Momentum’s national coordinator, said: “As the Tories continue to bungle Brexit and risk Britain crashing out with no deal, we will, like other organisations from the Labour movement, be asking our members what they think about the issue - and supporting the Labour leadership to defeat this disastrous Tory Brexit in Parliament if it fails Labour’s six tests.


Huff'n'Stuff

Yep, it looks that way to me.
How about asking the members another question.
If we leave the EU and Labour take power shortly after will Labour be able to meet Labours 6 tests. ?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #173 on: September 4, 2018, 01:01:41 PM »
“Laura Parker, Momentum’s national coordinator, said: “As the Tories continue to bungle Brexit and risk Britain crashing out with no deal, we will, like other organisations from the Labour movement, be asking our members what they think about the issue... continue to do fuck all to stop them...

Corrected.

It says everything you need to know about the useless pricks in charge of a once great party that the best chance they see of winning power is to allow something so utterly disastrous as Brexit  to happen and hope the Tories self-destruct. Shithouses the lot of them.

I have no doubt the majority in the country will come round to remain over the next few months. I have zero faith that either the Tories or Labour will bring us back from the brink. I expected that from the Conservatives but I would have expected Labour to be the voice of reason, the voice of sanity, the voice of internationalism, the voice of the working man and so on and so on.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #174 on: September 4, 2018, 01:11:24 PM »
The labour leadership didn't gamble, Cameron did - he gets away blameless in your above analysis.

We need time for people to realise how shite Brexit will be, no good coming out with it straight away as then the media would have crucified Corbyn even more and got the leave hype to a much higher degree. You say majority of labour voters already voted remain, but a high number of labour constituencies voted leave "Most Labour MPs represent a constituency that voted Leave" So it isn't as easy as what you're suggesting. The media would A. Portray the leader as a backstabbing Commie and B. Would smear all the MPs for not representing their constituencies.

What Corbyn has done by not doing very much is perfect - he allowed the Tories to castrate themselves, Johnson resigned, JRM is sniping at the PM, the government's own studies don't show much benefit of Brexit. And as pointed out the public opinion in swaying to a majority remain. All that needs to happen is a labour manifesto promise of a second referendum upon a majority government. 

Last time I checked Cameron wasn’t leader of the Labour Party.

And what do you mean by ‘no good coming out with it straight away’. Why? It was the truth during the referendum campaign and it was still true straight after the vote. I’ve heard some apologetic bollocks in my time but that takes the biscuit.

Isn’t Corbyn the great orator? The great campaigner? The man able to inspire and carry the crowd? 

I’m going to stop now anyway. His apologists will see no wrong as we crash out and the country is consigned to the sidelines for the future. I’ll probably be dead before we get back into Europe if we ever do.

You carry on - make all the excuses. It won’t add a single job lost because we’re leaving, or reduce the queues at customs by one lorry...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #175 on: September 4, 2018, 01:33:18 PM »
The labour leadership didn't gamble, Cameron did - he gets away blameless in your above analysis.

We need time for people to realise how shite Brexit will be, no good coming out with it straight away as then the media would have crucified Corbyn even more and got the leave hype to a much higher degree. You say majority of labour voters already voted remain, but a high number of labour constituencies voted leave "Most Labour MPs represent a constituency that voted Leave" So it isn't as easy as what you're suggesting. The media would A. Portray the leader as a backstabbing Commie and B. Would smear all the MPs for not representing their constituencies.

What Corbyn has done by not doing very much is perfect - he allowed the Tories to castrate themselves, Johnson resigned, JRM is sniping at the PM, the government's own studies don't show much benefit of Brexit. And as pointed out the public opinion in swaying to a majority remain. All that needs to happen is a labour manifesto promise of a second referendum upon a majority government.
Cameron was not responsible for what happened after the referendum. watch the Labour leadership debates shortly after the referendum. Corbyn argues for a Swiss type brexit in one debate, he must have been told how crap that is as the following weeks debate he argues for a Norwegian type Brexit, he was elected leader arguing for a Norwegian type Brexit. why did he stop arguing for a Norwegian type Brexit after he won the leadership election.
We know what happened next, May shocked the world by announcing the UK are leaving the SM+CU,ECJ, that was the big turning point in Brexit, that's when Labour should have been standing up and arguing voters were led to believe we could have a Norwegian type Brexit. leave campaigners even said it. Cameron played no part in this, Brexit never needed to be like this. it should have been about constantly telling the Torys to deliver the impossible brexit voters voted for, a Norwegian type Brexit that gives us frictionless tarrif free trading without the obligations of FOM,etc etc.
Labour didn't do it and here we are facing a disastrous brexit because the Torys were allowed to convince the public they voted for it.
Ray Bradshaw.

Stanley Johnson not wearing a mask is nowhere near as bad as Stanley Johnson not wearing a condom in 1963.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #176 on: September 4, 2018, 01:40:35 PM »
A second referendum after an election is a meaningless position.

Let's just set out the process.

By mid-December, we need to have the Withdrawal Agreement sorted. That's because the EU need to then pass it through the European Parliament and then the Council of Ministers. The Withdrawal Agreement needs to ensure that the Good Friday Agreement is maintained.

By end of March, we need to have the Withdrawal Agreement agreed upon in Parliament.

Either of those things don't happen, we crash out of the EU with no transition period.

To call an election requires around 100 Tory MPs voting for one, alongside all the other opposition parties. They're more likely to have a leadership contest instead.
To sort out a referendum will, realistically, take months. Last one took about a year to organise, and the legislation left huge loopholes which we're seeing with the dubious shit Vote Leave were up to.

We could ask to extend the Article 50 period to beyond March. And that might possibly be agreed to by the EU if there were to be a referendum. But it'll come before an election and it'll be, in some shape or form, on a deal agreed by May.

So come March, should May not totally screw up, there'll be a vote. It'll be a vote on whether to crash out of the EU or not. And she'll likely need Labour votes to carry it through Parliament. So what is the Labour response? Policy at the moment is to reject any Tory deal put forward (that's what the tests mean). But that gives 'no deal', and Corbyn will be walking to make the same vote as Boris and Mogg and IDS. And Field and Stringer and Hoey. Saying, "we'd like an election first and then we'll hold a referendum once we've figured out our position on Brexit and negotiated it with the EU" may not cut much ice in the fallout of the consequences.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #177 on: September 4, 2018, 01:48:39 PM »
I try to avoid reading or posting in this thread because it’s so fucking depressing. I pop my head in, then wish I hadn’t.

There is no time in my life when so many lifelong Labour voters have felt so completely disenfranchised from the political system. I remember all too well Derek Hatton and Militant Tendency. Now he and his ilk are welcome again, because the Party is being run by useless ideologues who haven’t a clue who, and what, are the real enemies of the British people.


The cult of Corbyn has so many parallels with the cult of Trump. It’s a phenomenon that’s seen adults refusing to believe what’s under their noses, and instead trusting our future, and our children’s, to deeply flawed politicians unfit for leadership.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #178 on: September 4, 2018, 02:14:23 PM »
I saw a comment on another site that the countdown to Brexit is like an anti-advent calendar: each day another door closes

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #179 on: September 4, 2018, 02:38:44 PM »
Last time I checked Cameron wasn’t leader of the Labour Party.

And what do you mean by ‘no good coming out with it straight away’. Why? It was the truth during the referendum campaign and it was still true straight after the vote. I’ve heard some apologetic bollocks in my time but that takes the biscuit.

Isn’t Corbyn the great orator? The great campaigner? The man able to inspire and carry the crowd? 

I’m going to stop now anyway. His apologists will see no wrong as we crash out and the country is consigned to the sidelines for the future. I’ll probably be dead before we get back into Europe if we ever do.

You carry on - make all the excuses. It won’t add a single job lost because we’re leaving, or reduce the queues at customs by one lorry...
Cameron was the one who enabled the referendum in the first place by folding to the UKIP branch of his party.

Why wait? Because of timing, it'd be political suicide to go against the biggest democratic vote in forever* 72% turnout straight away. You have to be a bit clever in these things. Sometimes you have to knock out the struggling swimmer in order to rescue them - let them feel pain in order for them to change their mind as calling them racists, idiots, etc. a tactic many used on here won't change their mind.
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I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #180 on: September 4, 2018, 02:41:55 PM »

Extend A-50 indefinitely, campaign for second ref in the manifesto, win election, have second ref, revoke A-50.
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I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #181 on: September 4, 2018, 02:47:05 PM »
Extend A-50 indefinitely, campaign for second ref in the manifesto, win election, have second ref, revoke A-50.

Sure, but Labour aren't in government to even ask, let alone ask and be refused.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #182 on: September 4, 2018, 03:18:17 PM »
The key with a second ref is to get it done before Article 50 expires, and as others have pointed out given the timing constraints now that would not be achievable without the EU agreeing to an extension to Article 50.

If we get to stay before Art 50 expires there appears to be a reasonable possibility of us staying in on materially the same terms as we are on now, let's not delude ourselves that the deal is going to be anything like that attractive if we come back to the EU in a few years time cap in hand begging to be let in.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #183 on: September 4, 2018, 03:39:23 PM »
The GMB has called for another referendum, although the way the video is worded suggests to me that the GMB's vision of another referendum doesn't necessarily involve Remain as an option.

https://twitter.com/GMB_union/status/1036945979386355713

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #184 on: September 4, 2018, 04:24:05 PM »
, let's not delude ourselves that the deal is going to be anything like that attractive if we come back to the EU in a few years time cap in hand begging to be let in.


That's one silver lining I'll cling to. That the result of the Brexit bollocks means that we end up being a subservient member of the EU, with very limited veto powers, and with Schengen and the Euro forced on us. I don't particularly think it's ideal for the UK, but it would ram a huge fist into the faces of the tax-dodging shysters who've orchestrated the whole Brexit movement.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #185 on: September 4, 2018, 05:12:09 PM »

That's one silver lining I'll cling to. That the result of the Brexit bollocks means that we end up being a subservient member of the EU, with very limited veto powers, and with Schengen and the Euro forced on us. I don't particularly think it's ideal for the UK, but it would ram a huge fist into the faces of the tax-dodging shysters who've orchestrated the whole Brexit movement.

But, but the will of the people, sovereignty, our borders etc. etc. etc.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #186 on: September 4, 2018, 05:56:12 PM »
If we end up with a Canada type FTA in the first place, it will be because the UK will have refused to compromise on its red lines. Unless that changes, I don't see what of significance there will be to discuss. The EU has better things to do than spend more years entertaining British pisstaking proposals.

There’s always stuff to negotiate, additional sectors, industries etc let us export a bit more of this and we’ll buy more of that etc. I’m not going to pretend to know the Canada deal in details but there will be some exclusions where it suited either party that the EU and UK may decide to include.

FWIW I would take the Canada deal as the best case scenario as the way we are heading even getting that would be an achievement with the current clowns in charge, never mind the ones sitting on the sidelines like Johnson and Rees-Mogg.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #187 on: September 4, 2018, 05:59:14 PM »
Cameron was the one who enabled the referendum in the first place by folding to the UKIP branch of his party.

Why wait? Because of timing, it'd be political suicide to go against the biggest democratic vote in forever* 72% turnout straight away. You have to be a bit clever in these things. Sometimes you have to knock out the struggling swimmer in order to rescue them - let them feel pain in order for them to change their mind as calling them racists, idiots, etc. a tactic many used on here won't change their mind.


Allowing the Labour Party to become inextricably linked to anti-semitism for reasons that have nothing to do with the day-to-day concerns of 99% if Labour voters is pretty suicidal. But that hasn’t stopped Corbyn and his followers making it front page news.

Why exactly is it essential that a Labour Party member has to have a special definition of anti-semitism? That’s the issue that is worth taking a stand over but protecting the jobs and future of working people in Britain isn’t?

Can you see why I think Corbyn and his mates have their priorities a little mixed up.

Because Brexit was always going to be a mess and likely to lose support. But (I hope) anti-semitism isn’t an issue where the public are moving towards the views of far too many of Corbyn’s mates.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #188 on: September 4, 2018, 07:55:58 PM »
I wouldn't mind but a referendum on the final deal is a get out of jail card for Labour.
If they are too scared to back one in fear of a backlash then they are never going to
overrule the result of the referendum if they did win a general election, the Labour party would be ignoring the will of the people, at least a vote on the final deal will be the people over ruling the result of the referendum, it's also not a 2nd referendum because we didn't like the result of the last referendum, the public voted to leave the EU for a reason, they have the right to decide if the government have delivered the Brexit they voted for not a abused Tory interpretation based on what the hard right want.
I never heard 1 leave campaigner arguing the EU won't give us a deal because of our red lines, they all argued the EU need us more than we need them, they will be on the phone to us panicking to give us a deal the day after the referendum.
Only managed to watch a hour of the debates in Parliament today. what a house of horrors that place is right now. Torys still telling us how confident they are of getting a deal and how they've got all the problems a no deal Brexit will bring sorted. right sure,how many permits for trucks are we going to get. got frictionless trading solutions sorted.etc etc.
Redwood telling us we would open our borders and allow goods to flow unhampered by beaurocracy, fantastic news for the whole world as under the WTO rules he says we should trade on dictates we have to treat all WTO members the same. open our border to the EU without a trade agreement then we have to open our borders to every country in the world.

« Last Edit: September 4, 2018, 07:59:26 PM by oldfordie »
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Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #189 on: September 4, 2018, 10:28:58 PM »
I repeat for those thinking that once out, the UK can rejoin the EU. That is simply not going to happen for at least a decade - almost certainly much longer.

I used to work in Brussels with pretty high level officials and I can assure you that the anger with Britain over the way this has been handled - let alone the decision - is enormous and almost venomous. You might just imagine how much extra work this has created for people, especially since the British approach has been so insane.

As I said before, if Britain wants to create any kind of trade relationships once out, all such partners will require assurances that they won't be dumped for a rapprochement to the EU in a couple of years. Untangling that mess will take years and years, as well as even further damage the country's reputation for stability.

It will be a generation or more before Britain is even considered for re-entry, even if that were possible with the country becoming even more fractured as the hard realities bite.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #190 on: September 4, 2018, 10:31:41 PM »
I repeat for those thinking that once out, the UK can rejoin the EU. That is simply not going to happen for at least a decade - almost certainly much longer.

I used to work in Brussels with pretty high level officials and I can assure you that the anger with Britain over the way this has been handled - let alone the decision - is enormous and almost venomous. You might just imagine how much extra work this has created for people, especially since the British approach has been so insane.

As I said before, if Britain wants to create any kind of trade relationships once out, all such partners will require assurances that they won't be dumped for a rapprochement to the EU in a couple of years. Untangling that mess will take years and years, as well as even further damage the country's reputation for stability.

It will be a generation or more before Britain is even considered for re-entry, even if that were possible with the country becoming even more fractured as the hard realities bite.

Dont see why anyone thinks anything else. Britain will be leaving, there will be no second referendum and then changing demographics means there will be a push to try to rejoin in a decade or so.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #191 on: September 4, 2018, 10:34:14 PM »
Dont see why anyone thinks anything else. Britain will be leaving, there will be no second referendum and then changing demographics means there will be a push to try to rejoin in a decade or so.

It's not conscious awareness but I would bet, if asked, a large proportion of the population think: 'well, we can always go back if it doesn't work out...'
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #192 on: September 4, 2018, 10:36:05 PM »
It's not conscious awareness but I would bet, if asked, a large proportion of the population think: 'well, we can always go back if it doesn't work out...'
I’m surprised no one has polled that....

It’s a really good idea to test... 

But why would they have us back?  Thye know we’re not committed to the European ‘project’. We’d only be going back for the money and they’d all know that.  DeGaul was right..(if it was him and I’m not confused)

Edit:  and the hilarious thing would be that we would have to adopt the euro

Would kill them...
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #193 on: September 4, 2018, 10:37:36 PM »
I repeat for those thinking that once out, the UK can rejoin the EU. That is simply not going to happen for at least a decade - almost certainly much longer.

I used to work in Brussels with pretty high level officials and I can assure you that the anger with Britain over the way this has been handled - let alone the decision - is enormous and almost venomous. You might just imagine how much extra work this has created for people, especially since the British approach has been so insane.

As I said before, if Britain wants to create any kind of trade relationships once out, all such partners will require assurances that they won't be dumped for a rapprochement to the EU in a couple of years. Untangling that mess will take years and years, as well as even further damage the country's reputation for stability.

It will be a generation or more before Britain is even considered for re-entry, even if that were possible with the country becoming even more fractured as the hard realities bite.

But it will all be fine because Corbyn, McDonell, Abbott, Milne and the rest will see us all right when they get the chance to use their vast experience of government to lead us all to the sunny Lexit uplands...

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #194 on: September 4, 2018, 10:39:11 PM »
But it will all be fine because Corbyn, McDonell, Abbott, Milne and the rest will see us all right when they get the chance to use their vast experience of government to lead us all to the sunny Lexit uplands...


viva the bolivarian lexit revolucion!

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #195 on: September 4, 2018, 10:46:28 PM »
It's not conscious awareness but I would bet, if asked, a large proportion of the population think: 'well, we can always go back if it doesn't work out...'

Exactly, and I think this is prevalent in the political class too, particularly Labour. It can be seen in a previous poster's view, as if somehow a general election will wipe the slate clean.

The same delusion that entertains the idea that somehow the Tories - who do not need to hold any general election until 2022 - will selflessly donate the country to Corbyn through a sudden sense of shame, and retire quietly to sackcloth and ashes. As we all should know, the Tories have a remarkable ability to find a way back to power (the antipode of Labour, which has an unerring ability to avoid actual governing through excessive target practice on the foot). Those of who have lived through incompetent yet apparently untouchable Tory governments know they will almost certainly find a new leader once this shit show is over and either crawl back into sufficient popularity or go full on fascist state (no need for elections now, eh boys? It's the Will of The PeopleTM).
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #196 on: September 5, 2018, 02:22:07 AM »
I repeat for those thinking that once out, the UK can rejoin the EU. That is simply not going to happen for at least a decade - almost certainly much longer.

I used to work in Brussels with pretty high level officials and I can assure you that the anger with Britain over the way this has been handled - let alone the decision - is enormous and almost venomous. You might just imagine how much extra work this has created for people, especially since the British approach has been so insane.

As I said before, if Britain wants to create any kind of trade relationships once out, all such partners will require assurances that they won't be dumped for a rapprochement to the EU in a couple of years. Untangling that mess will take years and years, as well as even further damage the country's reputation for stability.

It will be a generation or more before Britain is even considered for re-entry, even if that were possible with the country becoming even more fractured as the hard realities bite.
This is a concern. I don't know how it will work in practice but it's a obvious tactic the hard right will try after we leave the EU, sign us up to as many long term commitments to make rejoining the EU impossible. mind you, it didn't stop us leaving the EU as we are paying a £39 billion bill to cover our long term commitments to the EU. still wont stop the hard right from trying though.
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Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #197 on: September 5, 2018, 02:35:42 AM »
This is a concern. I don't know how it will work in practice but it's a obvious tactic the hard right will try after we leave the EU, sign us up to as many long term commitments to make rejoining the EU impossible. mind you, it didn't stop us leaving the EU as we are paying a £39 billion bill to cover our long term commitments to the EU. still wont stop the hard right from trying though.

It may become a tactic for a right wing government but the reality will bite Labour too. Any trading partners will be very wary of the British government's pitch. Particularly if the negotiations are along the lines of "we need you right now but the soonest opportunity we get, we'll dump you like a rancid nappy".

I now live in New Zealand and there's a lot of people here - many in government - that are still angry about the way Britain dropped them in the lurch to join the EEC thirty years ago. In 2019 the UK will be pathetically desperate and no-one in the Commonwealth is going to make the same mistake again. Count on even the sweet and loveable Kiwis to brutally shaft the Brits for everything they can get. Britain will have no leverage even against a tiny country with a taste for just a tiny bit of vengeance for old slights.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #198 on: September 5, 2018, 02:54:52 AM »
It may become a tactic for a right wing government but the reality will bite Labour too. Any trading partners will be very wary of the British government's pitch. Particularly if the negotiations are along the lines of "we need you right now but the soonest opportunity we get, we'll dump you like a rancid nappy".

I now live in New Zealand and there's a lot of people here - many in government - that are still angry about the way Britain dropped them in the lurch to join the EEC thirty years ago. In 2019 the UK will be pathetically desperate and no-one in the Commonwealth is going to make the same mistake again. Count on even the sweet and loveable Kiwis to brutally shaft the Brits for everything they can get. Britain will have no leverage even against a tiny country with a taste for just a tiny bit of vengeance for old slights.
Yep, I was raising the same point not long ago, anyway we will sign on the dotted line willingly. the UK interests are not the priority, the Tories only intention is to get as many trade deals as possible even if we are getting screwed. it's all about shouting we delivered another trade deal and nobody said we could deliver Brexit.
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Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #199 on: September 5, 2018, 05:21:58 AM »
Yep, I was raising the same point not long ago, anyway we will sign on the dotted line willingly. the UK interests are not the priority, the Tories only intention is to get as many trade deals as possible even if we are getting screwed. it's all about shouting we delivered another trade deal and nobody said we could deliver Brexit.

We agree on this. My point was really being made to those who think it would be much different under a Labour government once Brexit has happened. The idea that a Labour administration will be able to return to the EU is bordering on the delusional, which is why such efforts must be made for Labour to change policy and stop Brexit altogether.

It won't be rich people like me who have the choice to move to another country, nor the well-off who stay at home that end up eating the toxin-ridden food that will be arriving through the three day customs wait at the border.
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