Topic: Loan Watch 2018-2019

[Coolie High]

Gomez wasn't an academy player though and Alexander Arnold needed injuries to happen for him to get significant minutes. The idea that no club misses talent or if academy kids are good enoigh they'll get plenty minutes is a massive myth.

Sancho is seen as elite as he got the minutes to show his worth.

Exactly.

[Coolie High]

Would people want us to sign Harvey Barnes for £20 million+?

No but I would Robertson for 6.

[Djimi Smicer34]

I do agree a bit, but I don't think every academy player is seen as how Wilson is or how TAA was seen. Wilson clearly stands out right now from the rest & has not just succeeded, but excelled at all the levels he has played so far (which is our academy, U23rds, Championship for two different clubs & at International level), & if we don't give him a chance, we might never bother having an academy at all.

Curtis Jones is on that level, so is Brewster.

Play them or lose them.

[Chris~]

You dont have to think any of wilson, Jones or Brewster are the very best, or elite young talents, i dont think they all are. But by not giving chances to someone like wilson, whos gone out and done as much as he really can you then risk losing players who could be elite. It's why sancho left, hudson odoi likely will and brewster was seriously thinking about going. Jones has a year on his contract and will be thinking about how likely he is to get  the non-token minutes he'll needs to progress.

[El Lobo]

You dont have to think any of wilson, Jones or Brewster are the very best, or elite young talents, i dont think they all are. But by not giving chances to someone like wilson, whos gone out and done as much as he really can you then risk losing players who could be elite. It's why sancho left, hudson odoi likely will and brewster was seriously thinking about going. Jones has a year on his contract and will be thinking about how likely he is to get  the non-token minutes he'll needs to progress.

Sancho is 18 isn’t he? And Hudson Odoi? Oh and Brewster  Jones isn’t for another few weeks

Wilson is nearly 22 right?

[RedG13]

Sancho is 18 isn’t he? And Hudson Odoi? Oh and Brewster  Jones isn’t for another few weeks

Wilson is nearly 22 right?

Yes Wilson is 21 turns 22 in march.
Seeing his shot conversion rates, I wonder if he future is as a striker instead at the shaqiri spot

[Chris~]

Sancho is 18 isn’t he? And Hudson Odoi? Oh and Brewster  Jones isn’t for another few weeks

Wilson is nearly 22 right?

Ok, and?

They'll be being asked to sign up for 5 years, they'll want to know what theyre likely to get both short and long term as they wont get this much leverage very often.

[BrandoLFC]

Wilson's current shot conversion rate from shots outside the box would better anything Messi or Ronaldo ever did.  Now maybe he's the greatest long range shooter in history, I doubt it but it's possible.  Let's assume for now he is the greatest left foot in football history and we want to get him on the pitch.  In order to do so you'd need to rejig the formation even more than Klopp is doing now for Shaq or play him in the Salah role up top which would then be a whole host of other issues.  I don't care what he did at youth level.  In watching him at Derby he's a passenger on the field.  He doesn't progress the ball, he doesn't dribble with the ball, he doesn't create chances for others and he doesn't do much defensive work.  Shaq at least will progress the ball and dribble at times to off-set his defensive issues.  Salah it goes without saying.  You basically would need to have all the other players on the pitch doing everything for Wilson just so he can shoot either from open play or hit FK.

He's a LFC player so I hope he does well.  With that said 90% or even higher of youth players at LFC aren't ever going to play for LFC.  Maybe the Championship is his level, no shame in that.

[Roger Federer]

We played 2 Cup games this season, but if we had options as strong as Wilson, that won't be the case every season, will it? Our 2nd XI met Chelsea, so that was an unlucky match-up in the 1st League Cup game, & our 2nd XI against Wolves in the FA Cup was worse with too many injuries in defense & players were out of tune without game-time together. If Wilson got, say sub appearances in 10 games in the League, he'd be more in tune with other players to start the Cup games, don't you think?

I’m sure we could do better in the cups other years, and if Klopp wants to take his chances with Wilson I’d be absolutely fine with that decision. I don’t know how good he is as I said before, but if he is here next season, I just doubt that he’ll get 20 starts. At least if we add another established attacker. Lets say Filipe Anderson just for arguments sake.

We don’t play 4-2-3-1 all the time, but in that 3 behind Salah we’d be able to play Mane, Firmino, Anderson, Chamberlain (with perhaps a minor change in shape, closer to last year, but it was often quite similar to Shaqiri’s current role), Shaqiri and Wilson. You imagine we’d play the first three very regularly. Chamberlain might not be the same player anymore, but I’m pretty sure Klopp wants to find that out. He’ll be eased in, but that will take minutes off someone like Wilson. Shaqiri is likely a better player too (isn’t he? If not Wilson has a greater chance of course) and when we compete for both the league and the European Cup we don’t have many opportunities to develop young players unless we’re clearly ahead in games. Shaqiri comes on when the game is balance you’d expect, and he’ll start in the league before we turn to someone like Wilson.
 
One could even argue that this collection of players doesn’t include proper back up for Salah. We might go with Brewster here, and I think Mane could play as the striker should we buy someone for his role, but even without any extra signing apart from an Anderson, it is incredibly hard to get starts in our attack. If Wilson does manage it, and proves himself better than the rest, well great, I just wouldn’t expect him too. Not least since we in addition to our attacking midfield might play with  3 central midfielders instead, to give more minutes to the likes of Milner and Henderson if they aren’t regular starters next season.

[PoetryInMotion]

He averages 1.6 key passes a game for someone who doesn't create any chances at all. Sometimes you wonder if people are watching the same sport as you do, with comments like these.

Tackles are not a measure of how good a player is defensively, but it does indicate that the player is doing defensive work of some form. He averages 1.5 tackles per game for someone who doesn't do any defensive work.

Yes, a passenger has taken the Championship by storm for two seasons in a row. The lengths people go.

Henderson, Lovren..... You don't agree with the blind aversion towards them from some sections, but you can see how there could be such. But, but, Wilson? I just don't get it.

[BrandoLFC]

He averages 1.6 key passes a game for someone who doesn't create any chances at all. Sometimes you wonder if people are watching the same sport as you do, with comments like these.

Yes, a passenger has taken the Championship by storm for two seasons in a row. The lengths people go.

You understand the majority of those key passes are probably corners and free kicks right?   Opta doesn't separate those out in that stat.

And I've stated numerous times how many times I've watched him play a full 90 at Derby in this thread.  I'm not here to convince you, believe whatever you want.

Taken the Championship by storm by playing for the 6th placed team?  Ok I guess.

[PoetryInMotion]

I’m sure we could do better in the cups other years, and if Klopp wants to take his chances with Wilson I’d be absolutely fine with that decision. I don’t know how good he is as I said before, but if he is here next season, I just doubt that he’ll get 20 starts. At least if we add another established attacker. Lets say Filipe Anderson just for arguments sake.

We don’t play 4-2-3-1 all the time, but in that 3 behind Salah we’d be able to play Mane, Firmino, Anderson, Chamberlain (with perhaps a minor change in shape, closer to last year, but it was often quite similar to Shaqiri’s current role), Shaqiri and Wilson. You imagine we’d play the first three very regularly. Chamberlain might not be the same player anymore, but I’m pretty sure Klopp wants to find that out. He’ll be eased in, but that will take minutes off someone like Wilson. Shaqiri is likely a better player too (isn’t he? If not Wilson has a greater chance of course) and when we compete for both the league and the European Cup we don’t have many opportunities to develop young players unless we’re clearly ahead in games. Shaqiri comes on when the game is balance you’d expect, and he’ll start in the league before we turn to someone like Wilson.
 
One could even argue that this collection of players doesn’t include proper back up for Salah. We might go with Brewster here, and I think Mane could play as the striker should we buy someone for his role, but even without any extra signing apart from an Anderson, it is incredibly hard to get starts in our attack. If Wilson does manage it, and proves himself better than the rest, well great, I just wouldn’t expect him too. Not least since we in addition to our attacking midfield might play with  3 central midfielders instead, to give more minutes to the likes of Milner and Henderson if they aren’t regular starters next season.

The key here is to remember that, there is no XI to draw a map on. If you see our midfield this season where we have options, we can see that there has been no set XI at all. We started with one combo, mixed it up a bit, used different combos for different types of games and eased some players in. End result - most midfield players are relatively fresh, with the exception of a few minor niggles.

Yes, our front three will play a predominant number of games, but don't you think it's a risk to depend on their availability for the entire season? As we're doing this season? Some of you are making it sound like having options is somehow a bad thing, while clearly that's not the case.

What I can tell as of now for sure is that, we're relying heavily on the fitness of our front three while playing them regularly in 2 major competitions, needing them to play around 50 games a season. Shaqiri is sharing minutes not just from attack, but also from midfield. If you pull out just 5 games of rest from each of the front three, you have 15 starts for Wilson. And then there will be sub appearances. And then there are cup games. Even if we get another attacker, we still gave away minutes to Sturridge & Origi this season that Wilson & the other attacker can share. I just don't see minutes as a problem if Wilson wants to fight for his place here. If he shows the quality, he gets more chances - Klopp has rewarded performances of many players so far. But for that, he needs to get his initial chances here.

[PoetryInMotion]

You understand the majority of those key passes are probably corners and free kicks right?   Opta doesn't separate those out in that stat.

And I've stated numerous times how many times I've watched him play a full 90 at Derby in this thread.  I'm not here to convince you, believe whatever you want.

Taken the Championship by storm by playing for the 6th placed team?  Ok I guess.

It's not about who convinces who. Who told you I'm trying to convince you here? It's about being able to back your opinions, otherwise you end up with flat earths.

Okay, so Darren Fletcher won a truckload of Premier League titles, so he must have been better than Steven Gerrard who was never in the 1st placed team? Team's position is the ultimate decider of any player's quality?

You just won the world's silliest football argument award.

And free-kicks and corners ARE a part of football. You sound like a blue here, those comments were bitter indeed. Pace goals don't count. Set-pieces don't count.

[BrandoLFC]

Okay, so Darren Fletcher won a truckload of Premier League titles, so he must have been better than Steven Gerrard who was never in the 1st placed team? Team's position is the ultimate decider of any player's quality?

You just won the world's silliest football argument award.

And free-kicks and corners ARE a part of football. You sound like a blue here, those comments were bitter indeed. Pace goals don't count. Set-pieces don't count.

How is he taking the Championship by storm then?  Is there a clamor of other clubs beating down Edwards door trying to sign him?  Are we trying to bring him back because he's so fucking amazing?  What in the actual fuck are you even talking about?  I won the the award for following up with some ridiculous comment that you made with an even more ridiculous comment?  Ok then.....

I gave my opinion on Wilson from what I've watched and seen however limited it is.  In response you want to throw your toys out of the pram in the hope that it does what?  Are Klopp and Edwards sitting and reading RAWK while planning the 19/20 squad and Wilson's spot is going to be determined how many PiM convinces that Wilson deserves it? 

I think Wilson is a one trick pony that will never work at the level LFC plays at, tough fucking luck bro.

[Redman78]

He's had a good season so far in the championship, I've only watched him in highlights so can't comment on his overall influence. I think we may not know just how good he'll be until he gets a run of games for us.

I think there's both underrating and overrating going on. If he's good enough imo sure Klopp will give him a chance, but terms like exceptional are usually reserved for players who have proved themselves at the highest level.

[Dim Glas]

You dont have to think any of wilson, Jones or Brewster are the very best, or elite young talents, i dont think they all are. But by not giving chances to someone like wilson, whos gone out and done as much as he really can you then risk losing players who could be elite. It's why sancho left, hudson odoi likely will and brewster was seriously thinking about going. Jones has a year on his contract and will be thinking about how likely he is to get  the non-token minutes he'll needs to progress.

but that's just a reflection of how football is now at the highest level. It's near on impossible to integrate a number of teenagers into teams that are expected to compete for the league and be in the CL every year. 

The pressure is on the manager to have this team competing for the league and to be in the CL every year - nothing else is acceptable for many. As much as he'd love to integrate these players into the squad and given them regular games, he'd also love to keep his job I'm sure.

These youngsters will have to be so damn good at a very young age to make it here. It wouldn't be at all surprising if none of the latest crop 'make it'. They will likely move on with sell on and buy back clauses. And we'll likely not see them again.

It's a rough business - and that is what it is, and Liverpool's place in it, as demanded by the fan base for starters, is to be one of the best teams in the league. So unless players like Curtis Jones are in the top percentile of young talent, and better than playres already at the club, or players available for the club to purchase, they won't make it here. 

[phil236849]

Kloppo says next year he is back. RAWK disagrees!

[Redman78]

Kloppo says next year he is back. RAWK disagrees!

Of course he'll be back..He's our player and his loan will have ended. That doesn't mean he'll start next season here though.

[thaddeus]

Wilson's current shot conversion rate from shots outside the box would better anything Messi or Ronaldo ever did.  Now maybe he's the greatest long range shooter in history, I doubt it but it's possible.  Let's assume for now he is the greatest left foot in football history and we want to get him on the pitch.  In order to do so you'd need to rejig the formation even more than Klopp is doing now for Shaq or play him in the Salah role up top which would then be a whole host of other issues.  I don't care what he did at youth level.  In watching him at Derby he's a passenger on the field.  He doesn't progress the ball, he doesn't dribble with the ball, he doesn't create chances for others and he doesn't do much defensive work.  Shaq at least will progress the ball and dribble at times to off-set his defensive issues.  Salah it goes without saying.  You basically would need to have all the other players on the pitch doing everything for Wilson just so he can shoot either from open play or hit FK.

He's a LFC player so I hope he does well.  With that said 90% or even higher of youth players at LFC aren't ever going to play for LFC.  Maybe the Championship is his level, no shame in that.

I think you've been a bit brutal but I largely agree.  He is currently an OK footballer with an outstanding strike on his left foot, either shooting or crossing.  That alone will see him have a good career as a professional footballer but I'm not sure it is enough to get him into our team.

Unfortunately for him his timing isn't great as we have Salah and Shaqiri at 26 and 27-years old respectively in the peak of their careers playing the two positions he could realistically play in for us.

He has a five year contract so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he gets loaned out again next season and maybe his time comes a year later when he's 23-24.  In his favour a lot can change in 2-3 years and we've all seen Harry Kane - who at 20 could well have been described as an OK footballer with an outstanding strike on his right foot - become one of the world's best.  For every Kane though there are dozens more like Patrick Bamford.

Worst case scenario though we are selling him for £20m+ (based on the amounts we got for Ibe, Ings and Solanke).  I hope he ends up being more than just that but making it at Liverpool is bloody hard!

[Chris~]

but that's just a reflection of how football is now at the highest level. It's near on impossible to integrate a number of teenagers into teams that are expected to compete for the league and be in the CL every year. 

The pressure is on the manager to have this team competing for the league and to be in the CL every year - nothing else is acceptable for many. As much as he'd love to integrate these players into the squad and given them regular games, he'd also love to keep his job I'm sure.

These youngsters will have to be so damn good at a very young age to make it here. It wouldn't be at all surprising if none of the latest crop 'make it'. They will likely move on with sell on and buy back clauses. And we'll likely not see them again.

It's a rough business - and that is what it is, and Liverpool's place in it, as demanded by the fan base for starters, is to be one of the best teams in the league. So unless players like Curtis Jones are in the top percentile of young talent, and better than playres already at the club, or players available for the club to purchase, they won't make it here.

I'm not denying its very hard to make it, or saying give loads of teenagers a chance. I think we, and other pl clubs could and should be better at bringing them through and giving them chances though. I'm also explaining why if there isn't a change the trend will keep seeing more of them leave.

[Roger Federer]

The key here is to remember that, there is no XI to draw a map on. If you see our midfield this season where we have options, we can see that there has been no set XI at all. We started with one combo, mixed it up a bit, used different combos for different types of games and eased some players in. End result - most midfield players are relatively fresh, with the exception of a few minor niggles.

Yes, our front three will play a predominant number of games, but don't you think it's a risk to depend on their availability for the entire season? As we're doing this season? Some of you are making it sound like having options is somehow a bad thing, while clearly that's not the case.

What I can tell as of now for sure is that, we're relying heavily on the fitness of our front three while playing them regularly in 2 major competitions, needing them to play around 50 games a season. Shaqiri is sharing minutes not just from attack, but also from midfield. If you pull out just 5 games of rest from each of the front three, you have 15 starts for Wilson. And then there will be sub appearances. And then there are cup games. Even if we get another attacker, we still gave away minutes to Sturridge & Origi this season that Wilson & the other attacker can share. I just don't see minutes as a problem if Wilson wants to fight for his place here. If he shows the quality, he gets more chances - Klopp has rewarded performances of many players so far. But for that, he needs to get his initial chances here.

I have nothing against more options and have often argued that we’re short of attacking players. I don’t think we have enough cover/competition for Mane and Salah and we’re too dependent on the latter especially. There is clearly room for one more attacker, perhaps two. I doubt we’ll spend lots of money on more than one though, so if Wilson backs himself to be the other that is absolutely fine with me. But 20 starts is tough to see any 5-6th choice attacker getting, even if we go far in the cups.

Lets say we play around 55 games next year. The average number of starts among our front 6 would be 27,5 if we have 12 midfielders/forwards. But of course Mane, Salah, Firmino, Fabinho and Wijnaldum will get more than that. Say 40 each, to give them plenty of rest. You’re then down to 130 starts among 7 players. The average for those are then just over 18,5. But from this group surely you’d expect Henderson, Shaqiri, Chamberlain, Keita and ’Anderson’ to get more starts than Wilson? How do Wilson reach 20 starts unless he is better than most of the above or we have a massive injury crisis? Here I haven’t mentioned Milner, and didn’t even include  Brewster among the 12 players. Nor Sturridge, Origi or Lallana. Unless I have made a mistake somewhere, or underestimate how many games we’ll play - we had 56 last season - then for the last time, I just don’t see it. If he’s our only attacking addition, and we play 4-2-3-1 in every game he could, sure, but I don’t think that will happen.

[PoetryInMotion]

How is he taking the Championship by storm then?  Is there a clamor of other clubs beating down Edwards door trying to sign him?  Are we trying to bring him back because he's so fucking amazing?  What in the actual fuck are you even talking about?  I won the the award for following up with some ridiculous comment that you made with an even more ridiculous comment?  Ok then.....

I gave my opinion on Wilson from what I've watched and seen however limited it is.  In response you want to throw your toys out of the pram in the hope that it does what?  Are Klopp and Edwards sitting and reading RAWK while planning the 19/20 squad and Wilson's spot is going to be determined how many PiM convinces that Wilson deserves it? 

I think Wilson is a one trick pony that will never work at the level LFC plays at, tough fucking luck bro.

Is there a clamor of other clubs beating down Edwards' door, trying to sign Firmino? So, Firmino isn't good enough then? Nobody wanted to sign Robertson when we did for cheap. So, he was and is not good? Again, coming back with fallacies and totally absurd arguments.

You've done nothing to back your comments other than "I've seen him a lot" and Wilson does nothing, or that Klopp/Edwards do not read RAWK. Yeah, so? So, every thread here exists because the posters think Klopp/Edwards read RAWK? Have you had a bit too much to drink?

I've already showed you stats about his chance creation or defensive work to contradict the bollocks you've spouted him doing nothing and there are plenty of videos out there showing him driving forward with the ball or linking up with his team-mates and I've seen games of him where he's done all that which you deny.

Tough luck that you think he won't make it? In the words of the Colossus, "Who cares"? Me and other sensible supporters are more interested in whether Klopp gives him a chance.

Don't assume I'm writing this out to convince you (not anywhere near important), nor assume I'm writing it in the hope that Klopp/Edwards read this 

It is a situation & period where most of the promising youngsters at top clubs feel the need to move to get chances, so it also needs a circumstance to force a way through (like TAA and injuries) and I definitely trust Klopp whatever decision he takes on this, or on anything else for that matter. That's beyond the point.

It's good old asking to back your opinions with substance, because that's what happens in discussions on this forum. If you've none to back it up other than "I'm right, because I said so", feel free to ignore my posts on this.

As for one-trick ponies, and even if he is one, so what? David De Gea of all people is a one-trick pony. Can't come off his line, can't command his area, can't pass that well, but he's fucking good at what he does. Robben was also a one-trick pony. Inzaghi was another. But they were all highly successful. There have been quite a lot of great one-trick ponies over the years. Just great at what they did.

[PoetryInMotion]

I have nothing against more options and have often argued that we’re short of attacking players. I don’t think we have enough cover/competition for Mane and Salah and we’re too dependent on the latter especially. There is clearly room for one more attacker, perhaps two. I doubt we’ll spend lots of money on more than one though, so if Wilson backs himself to be the other that is absolutely fine with me. But 20 starts is tough to see any 5-6th choice attacker getting, even if we go far in the cups.

Lets say we play around 55 games next year. The average number of starts among our front 6 would be 27,5 if we have 12 midfielders/forwards. But of course Mane, Salah, Firmino, Fabinho and Wijnaldum will get more than that. Say 40 each, to give them plenty of rest. You’re then down to 130 starts among 7 players. The average for those are then just over 18,5. But from this group surely you’d expect Henderson, Shaqiri, Chamberlain, Keita and ’Anderson’ to get more starts than Wilson? How do Wilson reach 20 starts unless he is better than most of the above or we have a massive injury crisis? Here I haven’t mentioned Milner, and didn’t even include  Brewster among the 12 players. Nor Sturridge, Origi or Lallana. Unless I have made a mistake somewhere, or underestimate how many games we’ll play - we had 56 last season - then for the last time, I just don’t see it. If he’s our only attacking addition, and we play 4-2-3-1 in every game he could, sure, but I don’t think that will happen.

Yes, we'll have to wait and see what happens, I just think he's a big talent to pass on. But if we do, I think someone else will take that chance, if not immediately, then over the years. When the likes of Mikel San Jose & Gabriel Paletta made it in the top flight, I don't see why he can't manage it.

I would be happy if we have the depth that we currently have in midfield, in attack as well next season. It would be hard to expect the front 3 to keep producing the goods year in & year out and in both major competitions, & not including any cup games they may have to play. Even if the back-up is not Wilson, I'd still want us to have two more players in for those positions - Sturridge may leave & can't be relied upon, Solanke has left & Shaqiri is as much a midfield option, as he is an attacking one. Not sure we can count on Brewster, he's just coming back from a long term injury & Klopp will take his time to assess him.

[BrandoLFC]

I think you've been a bit brutal but I largely agree.  He is currently an OK footballer with an outstanding strike on his left foot, either shooting or crossing.  That alone will see him have a good career as a professional footballer but I'm not sure it is enough to get him into our team.

Unfortunately for him his timing isn't great as we have Salah and Shaqiri at 26 and 27-years old respectively in the peak of their careers playing the two positions he could realistically play in for us.

He has a five year contract so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he gets loaned out again next season and maybe his time comes a year later when he's 23-24.  In his favour a lot can change in 2-3 years and we've all seen Harry Kane - who at 20 could well have been described as an OK footballer with an outstanding strike on his right foot - become one of the world's best.  For every Kane though there are dozens more like Patrick Bamford.

Worst case scenario though we are selling him for £20m+ (based on the amounts we got for Ibe, Ings and Solanke).  I hope he ends up being more than just that but making it at Liverpool is bloody hard!

Yes I am being a bit harsh.  But that's more because the cold hard fact is that it's almost impossible to go from Academy to the squad if you're a top 10 team in the world.  Barca, Bayern, Juve, RM, PSG, ManC, ManU, etc etc almost no players of their own unless their generational talents.  Same thing applies here.  Odds are Wilson is not the greatest long range shooter in the world and it's not going to work here.  That doesn't mean I want him to fail, it's just the facts.

I'm not denying its very hard to make it, or saying give loads of teenagers a chance. I think we, and other pl clubs could and should be better at bringing them through and giving them chances though. I'm also explaining why if there isn't a change the trend will keep seeing more of them leave.

I think there's two separate issues here.  The first is generalization in that Chelsea's well documented and continuing issues of promoting their youth players shouldn't apply to every other club.  While I'm not well versed in the other top 6 teams Academy's I know that Chelsea has had some amazing youth teams while ManU have not therefore the issues cannot be even across them.  Even now Chelsea is choosing to pay Higuain ridiculous amount of money instead of bringing back Abraham who certainly seems ready for a chance.

Second, LFC as currently constructed is one of the best teams in World Football.  The fans and team want us to stay there and win as many trophies as possible.  Only a handful of players in the world are going to be of the level to play for us and the odds are that almost none of them are going to come from the youth team.  Obviously that doesn't mean it wouldn't be preferable that they do but so far in our history the players that had the ability to play at the level got their chance and the rest never showed they had that ability elsewhere to make us question what we were doing.

ManC, is Sancho better than Sterling or Sane?  He might eventually be but that's a tough call and one that would be pretty hard to make.

[PoetryInMotion]

According to Opta,

"Harry Wilson has scored eight goals from outside the box for Derby County in all competitions this season, at least twice as many as any other player in the top four tiers of English football in 2018-19."

[BrandoLFC]

Is there a clamor of other clubs beating down Edwards' door, trying to sign Firmino? So, Firmino isn't good enough then? Nobody wanted to sign Robertson when we did for cheap. So, he was and is not good? Again, coming back with fallacies and totally absurd arguments.

You've done nothing to back your comments other than "I've seen him a lot" and Wilson does nothing, or that Klopp/Edwards do not read RAWK. Yeah, so? So, every thread here exists because the posters think Klopp/Edwards read RAWK? Have you had a bit too much to drink?

I've already showed you stats about his chance creation or defensive work to contradict the bollocks you've spouted him doing nothing and there are plenty of videos out there showing him driving forward with the ball or linking up with his team-mates and I've seen games of him where he's done all that which you deny.

Tough luck that you think he won't make it? In the words of the Colossus, "Who cares"? Me and other sensible supporters are more interested in whether Klopp gives him a chance.

Don't assume I'm writing this out to convince you (not anywhere near important), nor assume I'm writing it in the hope that Klopp/Edwards read this 

It is a situation & period where most of the promising youngsters at top clubs feel the need to move to get chances, so it also needs a circumstance to force a way through (like TAA and injuries) and I definitely trust Klopp whatever decision he takes on this, or on anything else for that matter. That's beyond the point.

It's good old asking to back your opinions with substance, because that's what happens in discussions on this forum. If you've none to back it up other than "I'm right, because I said so", feel free to ignore my posts on this.

As for one-trick ponies, and even if he is one, so what? David De Gea of all people is a one-trick pony. Can't come off his line, can't command his area, can't pass that well, but he's fucking good at what he does. Robben was also a one-trick pony. Inzaghi was another. But they were all highly successful. There have been quite a lot of great one-trick ponies over the years. Just great at what they did.

Why do I need to back an opinion?  It's a fucking opinion not a statement of fact.  You can think your giving facts but you obviously have no basis in what those numbers mean so it's pointless.

1.5 Key Passes per game yet 1 assist for the season, is he really creating good chances then?  Corners and free kicks are dependent on the team winning them or he being allowed to take them.  Most stat people take them out when evaluating talent as they aren't easily repeatable in open play.  Again this could be 1 corner or free kick a game that his teammate gets their head or foot on but don't score.  There's no context here.
1.5 tackle per game translates to what he'd do for LFC how?  On a per 90 basis he's 8th on the team in tackles and 17th in interceptions.  He's no defensive dynamo and Derby's tactics would be a better explanation for why he even averages a tackle then any defensive nous.

And again, Wilson's one main skill is being done at a level that would make him the best in the world.  Do you think that's likely to translate when the quality of competition is improved?  Seems a long shot to me.

[blacksun]

Why do I need to back an opinion?  It's a fucking opinion not a statement of fact.  You can think your giving facts but you obviously have no basis in what those numbers mean so it's pointless.

1.5 Key Passes per game yet 1 assist for the season, is he really creating good chances then?  Corners and free kicks are dependent on the team winning them or he being allowed to take them.  Most stat people take them out when evaluating talent as they aren't easily repeatable in open play.  Again this could be 1 corner or free kick a game that his teammate gets their head or foot on but don't score.  There's no context here.
1.5 tackle per game translates to what he'd do for LFC how?  On a per 90 basis he's 8th on the team in tackles and 17th in interceptions.  He's no defensive dynamo and Derby's tactics would be a better explanation for why he even averages a tackle then any defensive nous.

And again, Wilson's one main skill is being done at a level that would make him the best in the world. Do you think that's likely to translate when the quality of competition is improved?  Seems a long shot to me.

Why does his one main skill need to be the best ever in the world to be a squad option for a team that competes for trophies?

Please point out the world class one skill that Nicky Butt/John O'Shea/Wes Brown/Darren Fletcher/Phil Neville ( I could go on for ages here but I won't) had that made them useful components of numerous trophy winning seasons.

[BrandoLFC]

According to Opta,

"Harry Wilson has scored eight goals from outside the box for Derby County in all competitions this season, at least twice as many as any other player in the top four tiers of English football in 2018-19."

Is your contention that Harry Wilson is twice the long range shooter than every other player in English football?

[BrandoLFC]

Why does his one main skill need to be the best ever in the world to be a squad option for a team that competes for trophies?

Please point out the world class one skill that Nicky Butt/John O'Shea/Wes Brown/Darren Fletcher/Phil Neville ( I could go on for ages here but I won't) had that made them useful components of numerous trophy winning seasons.

What?  He's a squad player to chip in with goals.  If he can only score goals from places it's unlikely to continue from then what is he doing?  Now that I think of it I posted his shot chart through November like 20 pages back, it would make Andros Townsend proud.  That's really what we're arguing about, a Welsh and white Andros Townsend.

So shit players that played for ManU not as forwards but as midfielders/defenders that didn't need to score and in a completely different era are comparisons?  Sure....

[PoetryInMotion]

Is your contention that Harry Wilson is twice the long range shooter than every other player in English football?

I merely posted an Opta stat. Everyone's free to take whatever they want from it, but you'll have to stop putting words on my mouth. I've made no such suggestion.

[BrandoLFC]

I merely posted an Opta stat. Everyone's free to take whatever they want from it, but you'll have to stop putting words on my mouth. I've made no such suggestion.

Merely posted yet bolded it was twice as much as anybody else.  Ok...

[Yorkykopite]

It's much easier to knock all the young players and come out like a grizzled old veteran and say "they're none of 'em gonna make it at Liverpool". No one ever made a fool himself taking this line.

I wonder with Wilson though. We've sent so many players on loan over the years. Some have done ok, some have done pretty well and some have sunk without trace. The best two loans I can remember are 1. Harry Wilson at Derby and 2. Harry Wilson at Hull City.

That's the same 'Harry Wilson' I believe. Doing the business in a relegation threatened team and doing the business in a promotion-chasing team. Winning pens at Stamford Bridge, scoring goals at Old Trafford.

On top of that there was another Harry Wilson who used to tear up the U-23s for Liverpool and his namesake who is now a regular in the Welsh team.

If at least one of these Harry Wilsons doesn't make it Liverpool it will be a shame because it will mean that loans really are a death sentence. But I think he's got a great chance. His scoring is nice because it's prolific. He knows how to strike a ball certainly. But his movement off the ball is what makes him stand out. An intelligent footballer, no question. No wonder Klopp plays the fool and keeps talking the fella up.

[PoetryInMotion]

Why do I need to back an opinion?  It's a fucking opinion not a statement of fact.  You can think your giving facts but you obviously have no basis in what those numbers mean so it's pointless.

1.5 Key Passes per game yet 1 assist for the season, is he really creating good chances then?  Corners and free kicks are dependent on the team winning them or he being allowed to take them.  Most stat people take them out when evaluating talent as they aren't easily repeatable in open play.  Again this could be 1 corner or free kick a game that his teammate gets their head or foot on but don't score.  There's no context here.
1.5 tackle per game translates to what he'd do for LFC how?  On a per 90 basis he's 8th on the team in tackles and 17th in interceptions.  He's no defensive dynamo and Derby's tactics would be a better explanation for why he even averages a tackle then any defensive nous.

And again, Wilson's one main skill is being done at a level that would make him the best in the world.  Do you think that's likely to translate when the quality of competition is improved?  Seems a long shot to me.

You're free not to back you opinion up, just that it won't be taken seriously without it.

Mane has 1 assist this season. So? He is not creating much/not contributing creatively? And why are you comparing his tackle stat with what he'd do at LFC? I never said it would mean the same or translate better at LFC. I simply contradicted your statement that he's a passenger and doesn't do anything defensively by mentioning what he offers defensively.

You're moving goal posts every post now.

1) You said he did nothing defensively, didn't create anything much - I refuted this with numbers just to show he's involved creatively and defensively.
2) Then you tried to dismiss that by claiming about set-pieces. Goal Post move 1 there.
3) Now, you're on to how the defensive numbers translate to LFC? How do you start from there and reach here? Goal Post move No. 2. Why does he need to be a defensive dynamo again? He's an attacking player.
4) You made an absurd claim reflecting that a team's position is the primary decider of a player's quality by calling out Derby's League position. Goal Post Move No. 3. When asked about Darren Fletcher's league titles & Steven Gerrard's lack of them, and whether that reflects the respective players' qualities, you've nothing to say though.
5) Then you made a claim that other teams have to be knocking on doors for a player to be good. Goal Post move No. 4. When given a counter-example of lack of interest in Firmino or Robertson from other clubs, there's nothing again.
6) Most players that have one skill better than the rest are all considered elite. If you're the best at Heading, you're most likely an elite CB or a CF. If you're the best at passing, you're most likely one of the best midfielders and so on. Why does that make Wilson's chances a long shot again?

[PoetryInMotion]

Merely posted yet bolded it was twice as much as anybody else.  Ok...

So? Bolded or not, a stat is a stat. Make of it what you will.

[BrandoLFC]

You're free not to back you opinion up, just that it won't be taken seriously without it.

Mane has 1 assist this season. So? He is not creating much/not contributing creatively? And why are you comparing his tackle stat with what he'd do at LFC? I never said it would mean the same or translate better at LFC. I simply contradicted your statement that he's a passenger and doesn't do anything defensively by mentioning what he offers defensively.

You're moving goal posts every post now.

1) You said he did nothing defensively, didn't create anything much - I refuted this with numbers just to show he's involved creatively and defensively.
2) Then you tried to dismiss that by claiming about set-pieces. Goal Post move 1 there.
3) Now, you're on to how the defensive numbers translate to LFC? How do you start from there and reach here? Goal Post move No. 2. Why does he need to be a defensive dynamo again? He's an attacking player.
4) You made an absurd claim reflecting that a team's position is the primary decider of a player's quality by calling out Derby's League position. Goal Post Move No. 3. When asked about Darren Fletcher's league titles & Steven Gerrard's lack of them, and whether that reflects the respective players' qualities, you've nothing to say though.
5) Then you made a claim that other teams have to be knocking on doors for a player to be good. Goal Post move No. 4. When given a counter-example of lack of interest in Firmino or Robertson from other clubs, there's nothing again.
6) Most players that have one skill better than the rest are all considered elite. If you're the best at Heading, you're most likely an elite CB or a CF. If you're the best at passing, you're most likely one of the best midfielders and so on. Why does that make Wilson's chances a long shot again?

Your comical.  I am giving my opinion and asking for context when you somehow think that by posting stats it refutes my OPINION.  It's an Opinion.  Do you fucking get it? 

The only fact I've stated is Wilson currently has a conversion rate better than Messi and Ronaldo ever had on shots from outside the box.  Is that realistically sustainable?  I would say no.

Anything else is just you now spewing bullshit, same as your first post about taking the league by storm that got your panties all in a wad when I responded just as ridiculously.

[BrandoLFC]

It's much easier to knock all the young players and come out like a grizzled old veteran and say "they're none of 'em gonna make it at Liverpool". No one ever made a fool himself taking this line.

I wonder with Wilson though. We've sent so many players on loan over the years. Some have done ok, some have done pretty well and some have sunk without trace. The best two loans I can remember are 1. Harry Wilson at Derby and 2. Harry Wilson at Hull City.

That's the same 'Harry Wilson' I believe. Doing the business in a relegation threatened team and doing the business in a promotion-chasing team. Winning pens at Stamford Bridge, scoring goals at Old Trafford.

On top of that there was another Harry Wilson who used to tear up the U-23s for Liverpool and his namesake who is now a regular in the Welsh team.

If at least one of these Harry Wilsons doesn't make it Liverpool it will be a shame because it will mean that loans really are a death sentence. But I think he's got a great chance. His scoring is nice because it's prolific. He knows how to strike a ball certainly. But his movement off the ball is what makes him stand out. An intelligent footballer, no question. No wonder Klopp plays the fool and keeps talking the fella up.

Unless their Dom Solanke.  Now that there was a youth player we should all have gotten behind.......

[blacksun]

Unless their Dom Solanke.  Now that there was a youth player we should all have gotten behind.......

So one young player we bought for a small amount of money was unable to make the breakthrough at our club in just over a year and the club got an offer so decent they felt they couldn't refuse is reason not to give a completely different young player a shot?

Wilson could cover for all the AM positions and I think as a Lallana like 8 so plenty of opportunity to get him some games there to see if he can cut it. Or not bother as Andre Wisdom never made it?!?!

Brando, I don't know you, but you do seem to take some weird positions on things and then argue the hell out of it even when said position is shown to be rather nuts

[BrandoLFC]

So one young player we bought for a small amount of money was unable to make the breakthrough at our club in just over a year and the club got an offer so decent they felt they couldn't refuse is reason not to give a completely different young player a shot?

Wilson could cover for all the AM positions and I think as a Lallana like 8 so plenty of opportunity to get him some games there to see if he can cut it. Or not bother as Andre Wisdom never made it?!?!

Brando, I don't know you, but you do seem to take some weird positions on things and then argue the hell out of it even when said position is shown to be rather nuts

Hah!  It's a weird position to point out that someones production is an outlier and it's not likely to translate to a higher level of competition?  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[blacksun]

Hah!  It's a weird position to point out that someones production is an outlier and it's not likely to translate to a higher level of competition?  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Nobody is saying his performances aren't maybe an outlier but most of us see more than just his goals and think he may have enough to be useful to us as at least a squad player we don't have to shell out 20-30M on. You on the other hand seem to want to use it as a stick to beat him with as proof he won't cut it with us. It just seems a weird position to take about a young prospect we have developed

Also that comment wasn't just about this thread, you also claimed Arsenal should sack Emery because he can't find a way to use Ozil.

[BrandoLFC]

Nobody is saying his performances aren't maybe an outlier but most of us see more than just his goals and think he may have enough to be useful to us as at least a squad player we don't have to shell out 20-30M on. You on the other hand seem to want to use it as a stick to beat him with as proof he won't cut it with us. It just seems a weird position to take about a young prospect we have developed

Also that comment wasn't just about this thread, you also claimed Arsenal should sack Emery because he can't find a way to use Ozil.

Uhh, most people are saying they aren't an outlier and what he's doing is repeatable and should get him into the LFC squad.  Aren't the majority of posts here that he should get a chance next year?

And again we're all entitled to our own opinion.  Am I off in the TAA thread ranting about Academy players shouldn't get a chance?  We're a top 6 club in the world at the moment, what are the odds of an Academy graduate even making the squad if they're not a generational talent?  Pretty low right?  That's just the facts whether it's for LFC, Bayern, Barca or any of our other competitors.  I watch Wilson play and if he's not putting it in the net he's not doing much else.  PiM can argue whatever he wants but again that's my opinion.  If I'm wrong and he saves us money in transfers, great.  It's not like it's going to ruin my enjoyment of the game if I'm wrong.

As far as the Arsenal thread, FM isn't real life in that Arsenal aren't "transfer listing" Ozil.  Unless he wants to make less money he's not going anywhere and then you have a manager that is getting nothing out of him.  One has to go, you can say it should be Ozil but it would be cheaper to find someone that could actually use Ozil than move him.