Topic: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK

[Alan_X]

Hahaha. Kinell. 

Let me guess, someone in your youth did that? ;-)

A few of the homeless people sleeping under the railway bridge near our office do. Glad the ‘I’m my youth’ thing makes you laugh. It is a bit ‘in my day...’ I know but I don’t hang around with the same people that I did back then and a few of them who had real issues are dead now.

I’m not sure what point you’re making. Are you suggesting people in extreme circumstances don’t search through skips, bins or pick stuff up? They do and always have done. Spend a bit of time around Finsbury Park and you’ll see it. That’s not judging them - they are for the most part people let down by society.

[classycarra]

I’m not sure what point you’re making. Are you suggesting people in extreme circumstances don’t search through skips, bins or pick stuff up? They do and always have done. Spend a bit of time around Finsbury Park and you’ll see it. That’s not judging them - they are for the most part people let down by society.

Strange coincidence, I know exactly where you're talking about as I'm living five minutes from there now.

[Alan_X]

Russia have form for this shit, but I'm in the *wait until there's tangible proof* before apportioning blame myself.

Like?

Russian nerve agent
Russian opponents of Russian regime
Modus operandi fits Russia.
Previous attacks by Russia on dissidents in the UK
Previous attacks by Russia on dissidents in Russia.

[TepidT2O]

I’ve got this image in my head of Alan sniffing tallow candles under the main stand now.

Ruined this thread for me.

[Alan_X]

I’ve got this image in my head of Alan sniffing tallow candles under the main stand now.

Ruined this thread for me.

[drmick]

Novichok candles.....

[killer-heels]

The woman exposed to the nerve agent has died.

[TepidT2O]

Well that’s awful....

Here’s to you Mr Putin... murderer of completely innocent people just to make a political point.

[Alan_X]

Dreadful news.

[robgomm]

Christ, poor woman. 

[Commie Bobbie]

The woman exposed to the nerve agent has died.

RIP to the innocent bystander, and condolences to their family.

I need to ask - how did the Skripals survive such a dose and yet four months down the line a innocent bystander has died due to the same 'batch'?

[killer-heels]

RIP to the innocent bystander, and condolences to their family.

I need to ask - how did the Skripals survive such a dose and yet four months down the line a innocent bystander has died due to the same 'batch'?

Could have been some underlying health issue which was compounded by this thing. All the parties were in critical condition so it was touch and go with them all.

[TepidT2O]

RIP to the innocent bystander, and condolences to their family.

I need to ask - how did the Skripals survive such a dose and yet four months down the line a innocent bystander has died due to the same 'batch'?

With the skirpals, .


1.the nerve agent was seemingly out on the door handle.  It got wet and hydrolysed (broke down) some what.

2. They wore gloves.


Hence a much lower dose.  They may also have been in better physical shape not being heroin users..

[classycarra]

I need to ask - how did the Skripals survive such a dose and yet four months down the line a innocent bystander has died due to the same 'batch'?

We don't know quantity of dose in either case, we don't know it's exactly the same batch just four months later, nor how it entered her body or about the four individuals' CNS

[Alan_X]

RIP to the innocent bystander, and condolences to their family.

I need to ask - how did the Skripals survive such a dose and yet four months down the line a innocent bystander has died due to the same 'batch'?

All drugs have an LD50 - the dose that is lethal for 50% of people exposed. It's a useful reminder that a drug can be lethal for 10 people and another 10 others could be exposed and survive.

And as others have pointed out there will be differences in the way they were exposed, how long before they received treatment, their underlying health could be different etc. 

[jillcwhomever]

RIP. 

[oldfordie]

Murder inquiry launched.
I hope our politicians don't start raising the political temperature, surely they can keep things restrained for just 1 week, get the team and the fans back home before ripping into the Russians.

[TravisBickle]

Horrific news. That this didn’t happen with the Litvinenko case was nothing short of a minor miracle, the bastards who carried that out left traces of polonium all over London. Having seen Skripal and his daughter recover, this is extremely sad news indeed.

 RIP. Charge Putin with murder, for symbolic reasons if nothing else. The man is so fucking dangerous and he needs to be stood up to.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Surely a simple explanation is that Porton Down (which admittedly has samples of said agents) had either a one-off, or potentially procedural (& therefore reoccurring) failure in its hazardous waste management, resulting in exposure to the immediate vicinity? For example, such hazardous waste ends up in a skip transported to the local tip and said skip potentially relocated elsewhere, accessible to various scavengers?

[classycarra]

Surely a simple explanation is that Porton Down (which admittedly has samples of said agents) had either a one-off, or potentially procedural (& therefore reoccurring) failure in its hazardous waste management, resulting in exposure to the immediate vicinity? For example, such hazardous waste ends up in a skip transported to the local tip and said skip potentially relocated elsewhere, accessible to various scavengers?

Sorry, but that is hilarious. Experienced scientests dispose of a dangerous weaponised nerve agent in a local skip...

Amazing how far a preconceived world-view can make one veer away from the rational in order to avoid something slightly more challenging to that view

[oldfordie]

Surely a simple explanation is that Porton Down (which admittedly has samples of said agents) had either a one-off, or potentially procedural (& therefore reoccurring) failure in its hazardous waste management, resulting in exposure to the immediate vicinity? For example, such hazardous waste ends up in a skip transported to the local tip and said skip potentially relocated elsewhere, accessible to various scavengers?

Well if this was just about 2 members of the public mysteriously being contaminated with Novichok then we could consider a few possibilities but it's not just about these 2 people.
2 Russian dissidents were targeted with Novichok, it's not a leak from Portadown. so what countries have Novichok and why would they target 2 Russian dissidents on British soil.
What countries would dare use WMD on British soil. what countries have a history of poisoning political opponents.

[oldfordie]

Sorry, but that is hilarious. Experienced scientests dispose of a dangerous weaponised nerve agent in a local skip...

Amazing how far a preconceived world-view can make one veer away from the rational in order to avoid something slightly more challenging to that view

They really should have a Novichok skip to make things safer, our local skip has wood, white goods,paper etc, not one bleeding Novichok skip anywhere.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Amazing how far a preconceived world-view can make one veer away from the rational in order to avoid something slightly more challenging to that view

Are you looking in the mirror as you type this?

(sorry to be flippant).

[classycarra]

Are you looking in the mirror as you type this?

(sorry to be flippant).

It's ok, I can take it. Though it's not the most convincing defence of your leap to a very very odd "simple explanation" (with the word simple doing an awful lot of work there!) that Porton Down killed this woman by accidentally using a skip!

Let us not forget that while the Skripal attack was being investigated you posted youtube videos from US right wing nutjobs One America News Network and posted an article by an American right wing conspiracy theorist titled:

'Skripal Poisoning a Desperate British Attempt to Resurrect Their American Coup'

It appears from your previous message that you've at least moved on from thinking that attack was invented by the British Government to start a war?

[RedBootsTommySmith]

No, sorry, Carra, its just that I don't accept at face value all I read in the press. I now live outside the UK and don't get the same level of exposure as you to the UK press, so I'm less influenced by it. I do use it as a source, however. I'm more accustomed to extremely politicized US press and therefor more sceptical...even of the One America News Network  . To the outside observer (well, at least this one) the UK government reaction to this whole Novochuk affair is incredulous.

[classycarra]

No, sorry, Carra, its just that I don't accept at face value all I read in the press. I now live outside the UK and don't get the same level of exposure as you to the UK press, so I'm less influenced by it. I do use it as a source, however. I'm more accustomed to extremely politicized US press and therefor more sceptical...even of the One America News Network  . To the outside observer (well, at least this one) the UK government reaction to this whole Novochuk affair is incredulous.

Would you care to explain in what way/how/why the UK gov'ts reaction is incredulous?

It's notable you didn't want to engage on the simple questions about whether you've moved on from thinking the Salisbury attack was a conspiracy about to be unravelled like in All the President's Men

On the face of it I think you might be overrating your skepticism a tad, and overrestimating my exposure to the UK press (and it's influence on me ). Please tell me you noticed you suggested that more exposure to UK press equals more influence on me, but more exposure to US press equals more skepticism for you

[Jiminy Cricket]

No, sorry, Carra, its just that I don't accept at face value all I read in the press. I now live outside the UK and don't get the same level of exposure as you to the UK press, so I'm less influenced by it. I do use it as a source, however. I'm more accustomed to extremely politicized US press and therefor more sceptical...even of the One America News Network  . To the outside observer (well, at least this one) the UK government reaction to this whole Novochuk affair is incredulous.

Well. I'm a British 'outsider' living in the US too. And and I see it like Classycara. To think other than these poisonings being the responsibility of Russia (Putin, in particular) is cloud cuckoo.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Well. I'm a British 'outsider' living in the US too. And and I see it like Classycara. To think other than these poisonings being the responsibility of Russia (Putin, in particular) is cloud cuckoo.

But you have absolutely no evidence to back up your conclusions, only a 'most likely explanation'. Occam's razor has been waved all around. Yet I offer a much simpler explanation, and its considered 'cuckoo' on here?  How many times have you heard of syringes washed up on shorelines? Foeteses showing up in waste tips? It is not unusual to have medical & other hazardous 'waste' incorrectly disposed of. As Tom Jones sings, its not unusual. I realize that explanation doesn't fit your preconceived notions, but try and step back.

I think the world outside the UK accepted the UK version of events when the story first broke, but have become less convinced as they find more holes in that narrative than in Blackburn, Lancashire.

Carra, I didn't mean to ignore you. I think the onus is on the UK Government to back up its assertions with hard evidence, not for me or anyone also to prove a negative. The evidence is just not forthcoming. Instead, accusations being cast and diplomatic co-operation being avoided. The case would being presented would never stand legal scrutiny.

I'm also left wondering why the official response to this latest episode is more muted vis-a-vis Russian accusations.

[classycarra]

I think the world outside the UK accepted the UK version of events when the story first broke, but have become less convinced as they find more holes in that narrative than in Blackburn, Lancashire.

I mean, really, are you able to let us know any of these holes? Or explain where you ended up falling on the Skripal case, following your initial leap comparing it to conspiring to enter a war in Iraq?

Could you please expand on any of these things you are bringing up and then not explaining?

Or if it's simpler, go back and answer the questions you've not wanted to be drawn on

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Ships in the night, Carra, I was amedning my earlier post. I honestly don't know what happened to the Skyrpl's or the latest couple, and would assert that neither do you. There has been insufficient evidence to make a case. Only respond with preconceived biases.

[classycarra]

Ships in the night, Carra, I was amedning my earlier post.

Ah, I missed that sorry!

[rafathegaffa83]

The woman exposed to the nerve agent has died.

RIP

[RedBootsTommySmith]

I don't mean to detract from the victim(s), RIP to the lady involved.

This may be a little off-topic, but today I read one of the more inspirational posts I've ever seen on RAWK in the Word Cup section, a lad talking about his experiences at this World Cup and his engagement with Russians. I hope you read it & conclude were all in this game together.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340493.0

[Alan_X]

I don't mean to detract from the victim(s), RIP to the lady involved.

This may be a little off-topic, but today I read one of the more inspirational posts I've ever seen on RAWK in the Word Cup section, a lad talking about his experiences at this World Cup and his engagement with Russians. I hope you read it & conclude were all in this game together.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340493.0

What has that got to do with nerve agent attacks?

[Alan_X]

Surely a simple explanation is that Porton Down (which admittedly has samples of said agents) had either a one-off, or potentially procedural (& therefore reoccurring) failure in its hazardous waste management, resulting in exposure to the immediate vicinity? For example, such hazardous waste ends up in a skip transported to the local tip and said skip potentially relocated elsewhere, accessible to various scavengers?

...How many times have you heard of syringes washed up on shorelines? Foeteses showing up in waste tips? It is not unusual to have medical & other hazardous 'waste' incorrectly disposed of....

From your other replies I assume you're serious. Have you read this back and not actually realised how ridiculous it is?

[Jiminy Cricket]

I don't mean to detract from the victim(s), RIP to the lady involved.

This may be a little off-topic, but today I read one of the more inspirational posts I've ever seen on RAWK in the Word Cup section, a lad talking about his experiences at this World Cup and his engagement with Russians. I hope you read it & conclude were all in this game together.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340493.0

What has that got to do with nerve agent attacks?

Oh, Alan. Alan. Alan. Do you not realise that you, me, Classycara and most of us here at RAWK are just brainwashed idiots who conflate the general Russian population with the oligarchs and Putin? We believe Russians to be a homogeneous pot of evil. We are stupid and prejudiced. In reality, some of the locals are lovely - who knew it!? Counterintuitively, when you start from the ordinary man in the street end of the spectrum who is also in high spirits, it is then perfectly fine to generalize and believe that the whole population and (crucially) that the oligarchy and Putin are (must be) lovely too. And to think, all it took was a link to a fellow RAWKite's report about his enjoyable experience while visiting Russia for the World Cup to expose and correct our narrow mindedness and Putin-prejudice. Thank you, RedBootsTommySmith. It has been an eyeopener.

[Alan_X]

What has that got to do with nerve agent attacks?

Oh, Alan. Alan. Alan. Do you not realise that you, me, Classycara and most of us here at RAWK are just brainwashed idiots who conflate the general Russian population with the oligarchs and Putin? We believe Russians to be a homogeneous pot of evil. We are stupid and prejudiced. In reality, some of the locals are lovely - who knew it!? Counterintuitively, when you start from the ordinary man in the street end of the spectrum who is also in high spirits, it is then perfectly fine to generalize and believe that the whole population and (crucially) that the oligarchy and Putin are (must be) lovely too. And to think, all it took was a link to a fellow RAWKite's report about his enjoyable experience while visiting Russia for the World Cup to expose and correct our narrow mindedness and Putin-prejudice. Thank you, RedBootsTommySmith. It has been an eyeopener.

You're absolutely right mate. After all, the fact that there are no protests on the streets during the World Cup and everyone is friendly to visitors is clear evidence that Putin is a great and compassionate leader, beloved by all of his people.

[So… Howard Philips]

From your other replies I assume you're serious. Have you read this back and not actually realised how ridiculous it is?

Actually I thought his original post was sardonic, not a genuine attempt to "explain" the latest incident.

I didn't realise that someone with British roots living in the US could be so sympathetic to Russia.

Uncanny similarities to POTUS.

[SlowRap]

The woman exposed to the nerve agent has died.

RIP to the poor lady

[Alan_X]

Actually I thought his original post was sardonic, not a genuine attempt to "explain" the latest incident.

I didn't realise that someone with British roots living in the US could be so sympathetic to Russia.

Uncanny similarities to POTUS.

The fascination with Russia for some people on the left goes back a long way. George Bernard Shaw, a great writer and passionate socialist was also an apologist for Stalin. In the current Labour leadership there's sympathy for Putin's Russia (despite it being run by billionaire oligarchs) that harks back to an idealised romantic view of the Russian Revolution.