Topic: Rhian Brewster

[Dim Glas]

Not one to piss on a parade, but wasn't he shit hot last pre-season as well?

and a further not to piss on a parade, Klopp’s comments are telling, in the sense there is clearly a very important area that he needs to get a lot better in!

Still, I hope he stays for now, similar to last season, see how it goes. And then if needs be, go on loan 2nd half of the season.

[elsewhere]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uic2jWXGaeo

[Wilmo]

I hope he stays with us this season, he'll set the league on fire.

[PIPA23]

the loan did him great... fantastic managment..

he should stay.

[latortuga]

From the goals he’s scored, he looks like a top top class goal scorer. Technique is all there, the finishing ability is incredible - but I’m only basing my opinions of him on Twitter videos and YouTube highlights reels. In that sense, I know barely anything about him.

For those with a more discerning eye, do you think he could make it as a top player with us?

I’ve been trying to gauge reactions, I’ve seen some Swansea fans say his off the ball play and contribution isn’t great, in that his interplay and movement isn’t all that great meaning he can go missing in action at times(a bit like Origi perhaps?)? Is this true? What are folks genuine opinions on him?

Their assessment is spot on for me, well from my point of view.  He showed the same deficiencies in the odd game that he played here, before he left for his loan with Swansea.  It would take some incredible coaching and improvement from a player to suddenly build that into your game - he hasn't.  I don't believe he ever will, which is why the suggestion that he could be understudy to Firmino were very hopeful.  Seems the consensus has now shifted towards replacing Origi, which even that I'm doubtful on. 

He can definitely finish your right about that, but to answer your question, no I don't believe he's suited to our style of play nor will he go on to become a top player with us.

[spider-neil]

Their assessment is spot on for me, well from my point of view.  He showed the same deficiencies in the odd game that he played here, before he left for his loan with Swansea.  It would take some incredible coaching and improvement from a player to suddenly build that into your game - he hasn't.  I don't believe he ever will, which is why the suggestion that he could be understudy to Firmino were very hopeful.  Seems the consensus has now shifted towards replacing Origi, which even that I'm doubtful on. 

He can definitely finish your right about that, but to answer your question, no I don't believe he's suited to our style of play nor will he go on to become a top player with us.

He's 20 years old not 50. There is still time for him to become a more complete footballer.

[mattD]

Their assessment is spot on for me, well from my point of view.  He showed the same deficiencies in the odd game that he played here, before he left for his loan with Swansea.  It would take some incredible coaching and improvement from a player to suddenly build that into your game - he hasn't.  I don't believe he ever will, which is why the suggestion that he could be understudy to Firmino were very hopeful.  Seems the consensus has now shifted towards replacing Origi, which even that I'm doubtful on. 

He can definitely finish your right about that, but to answer your question, no I don't believe he's suited to our style of play nor will he go on to become a top player with us.

Interesting, it seems to echo what Klopp says despite his praise - 'needs to be more involved'. If true, he would surely have to develop this factor of the game to have a chance of playing top level for us.

[CraigDS]

I don’t agree regarding his passing / interchange, think around decent quality players he’s fine. He’s maybe not Firmino levels but then he’s 20 and not many are even at their peak.

His movement may need some work, but his game is very much centred around in the box play, which is dependant a lot on great positional play, something he does very well. It’s also arguably a skill we are missing in a lot of games.

His movement can certainly be coached, when Klopp first came in this is something he did a lot with quite a few in the squad and think a season around the first team might help this.

[Coolie High]

Their assessment is spot on for me, well from my point of view.  He showed the same deficiencies in the odd game that he played here, before he left for his loan with Swansea.  It would take some incredible coaching and improvement from a player to suddenly build that into your game - he hasn't.  I don't believe he ever will, which is why the suggestion that he could be understudy to Firmino were very hopeful.  Seems the consensus has now shifted towards replacing Origi, which even that I'm doubtful on. 

He can definitely finish your right about that, but to answer your question, no I don't believe he's suited to our style of play nor will he go on to become a top player with us.

When was this? His all round play is good, he can pass dribble and he presses well.

[mattD]

I don’t agree regarding his passing / interchange, think around decent quality players he’s fine. He’s maybe not Firmino levels but then he’s 20 and not many are even at their peak.

His movement may need some work, but his game is very much centred around in the box play, which is dependant a lot on great positional play, something he does very well. It’s also arguably a skill we are missing in a lot of games.

His movement can certainly be coached, when Klopp first came in this is something he did a lot with quite a few in the squad and think a season around the first team might help this.

In this case then, a loan move may be counterproductive. Sure, he'll get significant first team experience with in the Premier League but his off the ball play and overall development is inevitably going to be hampered if he's managed by a dud like Roy bloody Hodgson (that's if rumours are to be believed that Palace are sniffing around for a loan).

With this in mind, it would make sense for him to go to a club that plays a similar style of football, or at least is sufficiently developmental enough and plays to his strengths (such as Graham Potter at Brighton). But it may just be beneficial to have him on the bench but learning the trade at Melwood this season (or Kirkby when that opens).

[wemmick]

I don’t agree regarding his passing / interchange, think around decent quality players he’s fine. He’s maybe not Firmino levels but then he’s 20 and not many are even at their peak.

His movement may need some work, but his game is very much centred around in the box play, which is dependant a lot on great positional play, something he does very well. It’s also arguably a skill we are missing in a lot of games.

His movement can certainly be coached, when Klopp first came in this is something he did a lot with quite a few in the squad and think a season around the first team might help this.

Spot on. He is raw, but better suited to score against most of the defenses we face than our other forward options. Origi is good in space, but his play in the box is a weakness at times.

[latortuga]

He's 20 years old not 50. There is still time for him to become a more complete footballer.

Sorry, you're right, reading back my post I was far too definitive in my post which isn't fair.  I was holding him to the Firmino standard which is also unfair.  He can improve this part of his game, I just don't believe it will improve enough to make him a Liverpool player long term.

[spider-neil]

Sorry, you're right, reading back my post I was far too definitive in my post which isn't fair.  I was holding him to the Firmino standard which is also unfair.  He can improve this part of his game, I just don't believe it will improve enough to make him a Liverpool player long term.

I suspect Klopp was keeping Brewster's feet on the ground. Brewster knows there is a lot of hard work ahead of him rounding out his play outside of the penalty area but he is a natural goal scorer (Klopp said this himself) and scoring goals is the hardest thing in football to do. I think he is better served observing and training with the front 3 rather than going out on loan.

[farawayred]

Their assessment is spot on for me, well from my point of view.  He showed the same deficiencies in the odd game that he played here, before he left for his loan with Swansea.  It would take some incredible coaching and improvement from a player to suddenly build that into your game - he hasn't.  I don't believe he ever will, which is why the suggestion that he could be understudy to Firmino were very hopeful.  Seems the consensus has now shifted towards replacing Origi, which even that I'm doubtful on. 

He can definitely finish your right about that, but to answer your question, no I don't believe he's suited to our style of play nor will he go on to become a top player with us.

Who knows, players sometimes change in a drastic way. Like how Tuchel changed Neymar, who now does a lot more hard work in one game than he did in a whole Barca season.

[afc tukrish]

  I was holding him to the Firmino standard which is also unfair. 

Only one player meets that standard...

[spider-neil]

Who knows, players sometimes change in a drastic way. Like how Tuchel changed Neymar, who now does a lot more hard work in one game than he did in a whole Barca season.

Wasn't Lewandoski pretty one dimensional when he first came to Dortmund and Klopp moulded him into complete striker? If the willingness to learn is there you can add multiple strings to your bow.

[afc tukrish]

Wasn't Lewandoski pretty one dimensional when he first came to Dortmund and Klopp moulded him into complete striker? If the willingness to learn is there you can add multiple strings to your bow.

Lewandowski, philanthropist...

[Chig]

I think the most important question is will he be more beneficial from a loan to a decent league team for game time, or stick around and up his all round skill with us? I think most of us here believe that he is good enough to contribute to our team, but what is better for his and ultimately our long term future.

[No666]

Sorry, you're right, reading back my post I was far too definitive in my post which isn't fair.  I was holding him to the Firmino standard which is also unfair.  He can improve this part of his game, I just don't believe it will improve enough to make him a Liverpool player long term.

How can you possibly know how much a player can improve? Even he has no idea how much he can improve, just - hopefully - that he has the willingness to learn and commitment to practise.

[Fromola]

Pretty clear shout from Jurgen, there...

Don't think the end product or its frequency are at all in question.

It's the "everything else," that Jurgen doesn't regard as "everything else" but rather as part of the fundamental package for a player in his front three, that Brewster needs to develop and demonstrate.

That'll be the only issue. Shades of Wilson last year who scored goals in pre-season and Klopp said similar after the game. 'Good talent, great left foot, needs to work on his overall game' and he was loaned out.

I hope Brewster stays though.

[royhendo]

What's cast into doubt is the off the ball play and contribution. If you watched the Swansea play off run, which a lot of us did, you'll see he worked hard and contributed just fine - he and Ayew made a decent partnership too.

Comparisons are irrelevant really - what sets this kid aside is that he's straight up lethal in and around the opposing side's box, in amongst all the other stuff. If we want to retain that option in a punishing schedule, we'll retain it. If we don't, he'll go somewhere else. But he's realised his ability translates into the senior game now, and he'll have a very good career indeed as a result.

There's a reason it's so difficult to find a backup for Firmino - to find someone who brings everything he brings to a side in one package is nigh on impossible.

[Asam]

Sorry, you're right, reading back my post I was far too definitive in my post which isn't fair.  I was holding him to the Firmino standard which is also unfair.  He can improve this part of his game, I just don't believe it will improve enough to make him a Liverpool player long term.

Firmino at 20 wasn’t Firmino standard (of today)

[Asam]

What's cast into doubt is the off the ball play and contribution. If you watched the Swansea play off run, which a lot of us did, you'll see he worked hard and contributed just fine - he and Ayew made a decent partnership too.

Comparisons are irrelevant really - what sets this kid aside is that he's straight up lethal in and around the opposing side's box, in amongst all the other stuff. If we want to retain that option in a punishing schedule, we'll retain it. If we don't, he'll go somewhere else. But he's realised his ability translates into the senior game now, and he'll have a very good career indeed as a result.

There's a reason it's so difficult to find a backup for Firmino - to find someone who brings everything he brings to a side in one package is nigh on impossible.

Precisely, so you find other solutions and we are fortunate because Klopp is brilliant at doing just that, if we going to use Brewster then he should do what he does best.

I think he is more of a Sturridge / Kane type of forward, he is electric in the box and his finishing and positional sense is already probably better than a lot of forwards in the premier league but he’s not and never will be a playmaker, in basketball terms he is the shooter (we just need to find our Scottie Pippen) to allow him to focus on his main value to the side.

[CraigDS]

Precisely, so you find other solutions and we are fortunate because Klopp is brilliant at doing just that, if we going to use Brewster then he should do what he does best.

I think he is more of a Sturridge / Kane type of forward, he is electric in the box and his finishing and positional sense is already probably better than a lot of forwards in the premier league but he’s not and never will be a playmaker, in basketball terms he is the shooter (we just need to find our Scottie Pippen) to allow him to focus on his main value to the side.

Think that’s massively harsh on Sturridge. He was no Firmino but he was certainly no Kane and his all round play was excellent.

[Drinks Sangria]

Firmino at 20 wasn’t Firmino standard (of today)

Correct. Firmino at 20 had a 1 in 5.5 goal record and hadn't even made 35 senior appearances in a weak Brazilian league.

Brewster is doing very well and in my eyes, shown enough to suggest he's a viable long term possibility. I think a loan to a Premier League club who'd guarantee him solid minutes would suit him well personally, but given the schedule it'd maybe be wiser to keep him around.

I just can't help but thinking a loan to Brighton would be fantastic, given they haven't loads of forward options (Murray and Locadia aren't going to get minutes) and Maupay does the most passable Firmino impression in the league, in regards to what he's asked to do by Potter. You could say why learn from a Firmino-lite when he can learn from the man himself, but I reckon he gets 2,000+ league minutes for Brighton and I'd be surprised if he got half that here really.

[No666]

I just can't help but thinking a loan to Brighton would be fantastic, given they haven't loads of forward options (Murray and Locadia aren't going to get minutes) and Maupay does the most passable Firmino impression in the league, in regards to what he's asked to do by Potter. You could say why learn from a Firmino-lite when he can learn from the man himself, but I reckon he gets 2,000+ league minutes for Brighton and I'd be surprised if he got half that here really.

No, but he'd get to work with arguably the finest coaching set-up in world football right now.

[Asam]

Think that’s massively harsh on Sturridge. He was no Firmino but he was certainly no Kane and his all round play was excellent.

In his first few seasons I agree, sturridge did have a lot more to his game, I don’t think the work rate or pressing was anywhere near the same league as Firmino, he wasn’t the type to break his neck to get back to cover in defence.

Brewster actually works very hard off the ball and defensively but he does need more work in other aspects which is normal for a 20 year old

[Asam]

No, but he'd get to work with arguably the finest coaching set-up in world football right now.

+ we need him

We could’ve sent Trent on loan and brought in a signing to cover for Clyne but we ultimately have the objective of developing talent for our first XI, Brewster is close enough to standard that he can really help us, his last mile of development is getting ship shape for Liverpool

[Chris~]

If we're comapring to other recent english strikers he's Vardy. He's not got the dribbling ability to really work wider like salah/mane, or when Sturridge would drift wide/deep. And he's not as good a passer as Kane to drop deep. He can be a relentless presser, is quick and can finish (can generate his own shots, powerful shot on him and seems to have great awareness to be in the right place). If he plays it needs to be through the middle, keep him between the width of the box and close to goal. Moving him round or asking him to be much more than that isn't going to help him suceed at the moment.

The problem is though that role isn't really there for him here at the moment. Minamino seems to be the first choice bsck up to play central. If he replaces Origi then it's going to be usually coming in more of a wide position, which although I don't think Origi is great at, he have better dribbling/ 1vs1 ability against defenders to make it work a bit.

[Fromola]

In his first few seasons I agree, sturridge did have a lot more to his game, I don’t think the work rate or pressing was anywhere near the same league as Firmino, he wasn’t the type to break his neck to get back to cover in defence.

Brewster actually works very hard off the ball and defensively but he does need more work in other aspects which is normal for a 20 year old

There was often a big drop off in terms of how we play when Sturridge came in for Firmino. I don't think Sturridge was ever very mobile after Hodgson ruined him either with that long term injury. He always seemed afraid of getting injured and lost his pace and mobility, a bit like a latter day Owen and the goals largely dried up.

He left Liverpool at 29 and on a free transfer but hardly had top clubs banging his door down.

[Asam]

If we're comapring to other recent english strikers he's Vardy. He's not got the dribbling ability to really work wider like salah/mane, or when Sturridge would drift wide/deep. And he's not as good a passer as Kane to drop deep. He can be a relentless presser, is quick and can finish (can generate his own shots, powerful shot on him and seems to have great awareness to be in the right place). If he plays it needs to be through the middle, keep him between the width of the box and close to goal. Moving him round or asking him to be much more than that isn't going to help him suceed at the moment.

The problem is though that role isn't really there for him here at the moment. Minamino seems to be the first choice bsck up to play central. If he replaces Origi then it's going to be usually coming in more of a wide position, which although I don't think Origi is great at, he have better dribbling/ 1vs1 ability against defenders to make it work a bit.

Firmino, Minamino or Oxlade could also play deeper behind Brewster if we set up in a 4-2-3-1, there will be games where what we actually want is someone who will get on the end of one of those brilliant crosses from Trent or Robertson into the box not someone who is moving away from the goal looking for a cut-back,  I think we will benefit from being more tactically flexible this season and he gives us an interesting option whilst also working very hard for the team

[Coolie High]

Think that’s massively harsh on Sturridge. He was no Firmino but he was certainly no Kane and his all round play was excellent.

Sturridge was an even better footballer technically Jan Firmino imo.

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

Sturridge was an even better footballer technically Jan Firmino imo.

Agreed, and was fantastic at dropping deep to link, or playing on the shoulder.

What he never did was press relentlessly, or run the channels.

I'd say his movement was also much more selfish than Firmino, who runs to create space for other rather than himself.

[smutchin]

No, but he'd get to work with arguably the finest coaching set-up in world football right now.

I was thinking along these lines myself. Working alongside Firmino, Salah and Mané in training every day, is surely the best way for him to improve his ability in the areas where Klopp seems to think he needs improving.

Or he could go to another Swansea-like team where he will get lots of playing time but might end up coasting his way to 20 goals without actually improving at all.

At 20, it's probably more important for him to be refining his technique than getting playing time.

[FlashGordon]

If Brewster can get anywhere close to a prime injury free Daniel Sturridge he will have a very, very good career at the highest level.

I reckon he's got a chance.

[Bob Sacamano]

If we're comapring to other recent english strikers he's Vardy. He's not got the dribbling ability to really work wider like salah/mane, or when Sturridge would drift wide/deep. And he's not as good a passer as Kane to drop deep. He can be a relentless presser, is quick and can finish (can generate his own shots, powerful shot on him and seems to have great awareness to be in the right place). If he plays it needs to be through the middle, keep him between the width of the box and close to goal. Moving him round or asking him to be much more than that isn't going to help him suceed at the moment.

The problem is though that role isn't really there for him here at the moment. Minamino seems to be the first choice bsck up to play central. If he replaces Origi then it's going to be usually coming in more of a wide position, which although I don't think Origi is great at, he have better dribbling/ 1vs1 ability against defenders to make it work a bit.

Vardy has electric pace and some of the best off-ball movement you’ll see from a striker. I’ve seen neither from Brewster yet.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

He has good work rate and aggression. The main area he needs to improve on is linking with other players and how to get involved with the game and find positions to receive the ball when it's not in the final third. Despite scoring plenty for Swansea these are areas that showed as weakness. It's the sort of thing you might address when a striker is in the academy by playing him as a 10 but sure of the best route once someone is established.

[Mr Benn please?]

Their assessment is spot on for me, well from my point of view.  He showed the same deficiencies in the odd game that he played here, before he left for his loan with Swansea.  It would take some incredible coaching and improvement from a player to suddenly build that into your game - he hasn't.  I don't believe he ever will, which is why the suggestion that he could be understudy to Firmino were very hopeful.  Seems the consensus has now shifted towards replacing Origi, which even that I'm doubtful on. 

He can definitely finish your right about that, but to answer your question, no I don't believe he's suited to our style of play nor will he go on to become a top player with us.

Maybe not at present but our style of play may evolve over the next few years. If Brewster turns out to be a prolific goalscorer and not much more than that then we'd be mad not to try and accommodate him him in some way. He is completely different from Firmino, but so was Lewandowski, so Klopp has worked with more traditional no9s previously. If Klopp and the management team see something in Brewster and view him as a possible long term replacement for Bob, they'll surely be thinking about making adaptations to get the best out of him as they begin the process of rebuilding the current team.

[rossipersempre]

So he's either the next Robbie Fowler or the next Dani Pacheco, right?

I'm in the "let's keep him around until Christmas at least and see how we and he fares" group. Best case scenario, the loss of Werner may prove to be a blessing in disguise. If he doesn't take the next step up, then as has been mooted,  a half-season loan to Brighton under Potter and alongside Lallana, would be ideal. This is his make or break season you feel, after an injury-plagued year or two.

[Zimagic]

Thing is that playing for us is lots of knowing what's expected of you in terms of organisation, when to press, where to cover, understanding every single job around you too so you instinctively know who is doing what (and occasionally being able to do that job if called upon) so you can play the press and counter instantly.

It's knowing that if you don't do that job properly all the time the system breaks down and we get into trouble. Even very good players with years under their belts take time to get it (Ox, Keita, Fabinoho recently but the entire team for 2+ seasons when Klopp arrived first).

On top of that you have to have a skill level or drive or other quality that sets you apart from other footballers for it to be you in the starting 11 and not Bobby, Origi, Minamino, etc.

We know the kid can score. Can he do everything else that's needed at a high enough level for 70-90 mins and still be scoring? We don't know. People hold this against Wilson, I hold it against Origi, who knows for Brewster?