Author Topic: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16  (Read 107534 times)

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3160 on: March 8, 2018, 03:31:58 PM »
in isolation that was probably one of our greatest results of all time. The team we had had no business getting through against an obscenely good juve team. Only a 2-1 lead to protect in probably the most intimidating away we could possibly play. What a night.

Itís incredible really. That bench is so inexperienced. The only senior pros were Smicer who at that point had barely featured all season and Cisse who I think saw his first action that night since his leg break in October.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3161 on: March 8, 2018, 03:36:08 PM »
Matic would be an excellent fullback! ;D As I think would Hamann have been.

People are too allied to "positions", but positions don't really exist, only skills and athleticism, suited to the area of the field. That's why teams who do a lot of small sided games in training always have flexible players and formations, because once you go to 4v4 or 5v5 or something like that, positions stop existing, and there's only "where should you be in this moment?".

It's like "Total Football" didn't teach anyone anything ;D

I agree with your wider point that we're too fixated on positions (and have long felt managers should experiment more - it's something I really liked about Rodgers!), but on this specific discussion it feels like you're under-estimating athleticism and over-estimating skills a little.

Matic certainly has some of the skills to be an 'excellent' full-back, but he lacks the fundamental athleticism to be a sustained success there at an elite level IMO. Could you imagine Manť or Oxlade up against him on Saturday with space to run into? Sure, his excellent reading of the game would help, but eventually he's going to get burned.

Going forward, too, I think he simply lacks the pace and agility to be effective on the overlap.

I think your diagram on the previous page would have been accurate ten years ago, and it probably still is at lower levels with more defensive-minded full-backs, but it's moved on at the very top now. Generally, full-backs' average positions and general skills are more in line with a box-to-box midfielder's than a holding midfielder's.

Of course, it's all player and system dependent though  :)  (As your reply to me which I've only just seen basically summarises!)
« Last Edit: March 8, 2018, 03:39:08 PM by LallanaInPyjamas »

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3162 on: March 8, 2018, 03:37:39 PM »

Athleticism isn't a "skill" per se, it's a "condition".

Like Fellaini, and "elbows..."
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3163 on: March 8, 2018, 03:39:46 PM »
Hamann or Matic as fullbacks? They don't have any of the traits required for a fullback. Also POP you state that a long ball and crossing is the same technique? Definitely not.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3164 on: March 8, 2018, 03:40:34 PM »
I agree with your wider point that we're too fixated on positions (and have long felt managers should experiment more - it's something I really liked about Rodgers!), but on this specific discussion it feels like you're under-estimating athleticism and over-estimating skills a little.

Matic certainly has some of the skills to be an 'excellent' full-back, but he lacks the fundamental athleticism to be a sustained success there at an elite level IMO. Could you imagine Manť or Oxlade up against him on Saturday with space to run into? Sure, his excellent reading of the game would help, but eventually he's going to get burned.

Going forward, too, I think he simply lacks the pace and agility to be effective on the overlap.

I think your diagram on the previous page would have been accurate ten years ago, and it probably still is at lower levels with more defensive-minded full-backs, but it's moved on at the very top now. Full-backs' average positions and general skills are more in line with a box-to-box midfielder's than a holding midfielder's.

Absolutely not. But athleticism is changeable to a LARGE degree at the professional level.

Skills, largely, aren't. What you have as an 18-21 year old player coming into professional football is mostly what you have for the rest of your career. So your "skillset" is mostly fixed. Athleticism, though, isn't (apart from speed and height). You can get stronger, you can train to run longer, you can train to repeat more sprints. These are the every day parts of training that all teams do.

What's more difficult, though, is to train yourself to be a clinical striker if you're not already one, or a dead-eyed passer, or a sidewinding dribbler. So what you have is what you have, and because of this, we can largely place "skillsets" into areas of the field. The athleticism is changeable.

Except for Joe Cole, who has no lungs ;D
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3165 on: March 8, 2018, 03:46:51 PM »
Hamann or Matic as fullbacks? They don't have any of the traits required for a fullback. Also POP you state that a long ball and crossing is the same technique? Definitely not.

I vehemently disagree, on both points ;D

Can plays both fullback and defensive mid.

Henderson played wingback.

Milner plays fullback and central mid.

And god bless his heart - Phil Bloody Neville ;D

We can agree to disagree, though, as it's a game of opinions after all :)

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3166 on: March 8, 2018, 03:49:59 PM »
I vehemently disagree, on both points ;D

Can plays both fullback and defensive mid.

Henderson played wingback.

Milner plays fullback and central mid.

And god bless his heart - Phil Bloody Neville ;D

We can agree to disagree, though, as it's a game of opinions after all :)


All those players you mention have a degree of pace to them, at least when they get going. Hamann and Matic have no acceleration! By your reasoning aswell, Molby would have made a great fullback? I believe some DMs can play fullback and vice versa but to say they all can?

Also how can you say that a De Bruyne/Gerrard style whipped cross uses the same technique as says a 60 yard crossfield pass?

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3167 on: March 8, 2018, 04:29:23 PM »
All those players you mention have a degree of pace to them, at least when they get going. Hamann and Matic have no acceleration! By your reasoning aswell, Molby would have made a great fullback? I believe some DMs can play fullback and vice versa but to say they all can?

Also how can you say that a De Bruyne/Gerrard style whipped cross uses the same technique as says a 60 yard crossfield pass?

I didn't say ALL fullbacks could play as a defensive mids. I said the skillsets are the same, so theoretically a fullback SHOULD be able to play as a DM and vice versa.

Secondly, Can has no acceleration at all, doesn't stop him from playing fullback for Germany. And I'm talking a proper defensive fullback here, in the old style, not today's converted wingers (as pointed out).

Thirdly, you're confusing technique with application. The technique for a whipped pass and a crossfield pass is the same - ankle locked, toes down, foot under the ball, standing foot beside and slightly back from the ball, head up, lean back, follow through with the locked ankle, land on the kicking foot. The only difference is the snap of the knee on the whipped cross, and where on the ball you strike.
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3168 on: March 8, 2018, 05:29:01 PM »
I didn't say ALL fullbacks could play as a defensive mids. I said the skillsets are the same, so theoretically a fullback SHOULD be able to play as a DM and vice versa.

Secondly, Can has no acceleration at all, doesn't stop him from playing fullback for Germany. And I'm talking a proper defensive fullback here, in the old style, not today's converted wingers (as pointed out).

Thirdly, you're confusing technique with application. The technique for a whipped pass and a crossfield pass is the same - ankle locked, toes down, foot under the ball, standing foot beside and slightly back from the ball, head up, lean back, follow through with the locked ankle, land on the kicking foot. The only difference is the snap of the knee on the whipped cross, and where on the ball you strike.
Contradicting yourself there. I agree you're going to lean back and have your foot under the ball for a cross field pass. For a whipped cross your generally going to want to get your body over the ball and more of a side/top impact area on the ball.

Crossfield pass


Cross

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3169 on: March 8, 2018, 05:38:01 PM »
Contradicting yourself there. I agree you're going to lean back and have your foot under the ball for a cross field pass. For a whipped cross your generally going to want to get your body over the ball and more of a side/top impact area on the ball.

Crossfield pass


Cross


No contradiction.

"Foot under the ball" doesn't mean dead centre. It means below the midline. Given you have a good technical breakdown above, then I have to assume you know that (or you misunderstood me). Head over the ball keeps it low. There is nothing in a "whipped cross" which says anything about height, only about the pace of the ball (whipped as opposed to chipped, lofted, or driven)
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3170 on: March 8, 2018, 05:58:43 PM »
Re-Chiellini and his performance last night, it was great last 30 min from him. But let's not re-write the history of last night, he was turned inside out several times, and Spurs were wasteful in front of the goal. On the balance, it was a great performance since Juve progressed, but last ditch tackling and screaming at each other is not a pre-requisite for a great defensive performance.

On his place as one of the great defenders, the likes of Pique, underrated to this day, have won more and defend better than him. Pique is faster than him and simply reads the game better. Also, Godin is everything Chiellini wants to be. He is athletic and committed, but makes far less errors and doesn't have to throw himself around like Chiellini does.

Not sure if Chiellini is in top 5 defenders of his generation. That's underrating a whole lot of defenders that overlapped with him. The likes of Ferdinand and Vidic were on another level, so was John Terry to be fair. The same style, throwing himself on the way etc. Bonucci is a more cultured defender. In Germany, they have had Boateng and Hummels, in Spain, other than Pique and Godin, there were Ramos and Pepe. For whatever reason, the defenders of defensive teams are appreciated more than the defenders of the attacking teams. The other night Ramos didn't concede a single chance to PSG's attack (much better attack than Spurs).

But I loved Chiellini's post match interview. He would probably make my top 10 defenders of his era, but he isn't close to being top 3.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3171 on: March 8, 2018, 07:23:31 PM »
No contradiction.

"Foot under the ball" doesn't mean dead centre. It means below the midline. Given you have a good technical breakdown above, then I have to assume you know that (or you misunderstood me). Head over the ball keeps it low. There is nothing in a "whipped cross" which says anything about height, only about the pace of the ball (whipped as opposed to chipped, lofted, or driven)

You know what I mean when I say whipped crossed. Hit in with pace from anywhere between foot height to a height where it can be headed. A crossfield pass goes tens of feet in the air and to say the technique required for both a cross and a long ball is the same is clearly wrong. There may be instances where crosses are floated in using the same technique as a long pass but to generalise and say they are all the same? Id say most crosses come from a player wrapping their foot around the ball.

Using your terminology is like saying the technique Phillipe Albert used to lob Schmeichel is the same as Salah's goal against Everton because they both strike the ball below the midline.

They are two completely different ways of striking a ball!


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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3172 on: March 8, 2018, 07:32:40 PM »
No contradiction.

"Foot under the ball" doesn't mean dead centre. It means below the midline. Given you have a good technical breakdown above, then I have to assume you know that (or you misunderstood me). Head over the ball keeps it low. There is nothing in a "whipped cross" which says anything about height, only about the pace of the ball (whipped as opposed to chipped, lofted, or driven)

Quote
You know what I mean when I say whipped crossed. Hit in with pace from anywhere between foot height to a height where it can be headed. A crossfield pass goes tens of feet in the air and to say the technique required for both a cross and a long ball is the same is clearly wrong. There may be instances where crosses are floated in using the same technique as a long pass but to generalise and say they are all the same? Id say most crosses come from a player wrapping their foot around the ball.

Using your terminology is like saying the technique Phillipe Albert used to lob Schmeichel is the same as Salah's goal against Everton because they both strike the ball below the midline.

They are two completely different ways of striking a ball!


The only main difference is power, and minor differences in where the ball is struck. That's not technique. That's application. Technique is the biomechanics of the action, the movement of the body part to the object, and the preparation before the movement.

If I coach a player to play a lofted pass, I only need to make one or two minor adjustments to turn it into a whipped cross. I don't need to teach them a whole new technique.
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3173 on: March 8, 2018, 08:21:47 PM »



The only main difference is power, and minor differences in where the ball is struck. That's not technique. That's application. Technique is the biomechanics of the action, the movement of the body part to the object, and the preparation before the movement.

If I coach a player to play a lofted pass, I only need to make one or two minor adjustments to turn it into a whipped cross. I don't need to teach them a whole new technique.
Which proves my point in said example. Take the Phillipe Albert goal, your approaching the ball head on you have hit the ball using a straight back to font movement of the leg, hitting the ball as far under it as you can in order to get the elevation. For something like Salah's goal you have to strike from the side in order to get the whip/curve required for it to bend in the far post. Two completely different movements of the body to the object (ball) two completely different body shapes when striking the ball, two completely different sets of footwork to achieve each.

What your calling minor adjustments are major changes.

Would you say with a minor adjustment you can turn an overarm throw into an underarm throw? No. Of course not. Its a completely different throw!

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3174 on: March 8, 2018, 08:42:30 PM »
Which proves my point in said example. Take the Phillipe Albert goal, your approaching the ball head on you have hit the ball using a straight back to font movement of the leg, hitting the ball as far under it as you can in order to get the elevation. For something like Salah's goal you have to strike from the side in order to get the whip/curve required for it to bend in the far post. Two completely different movements of the body to the object (ball) two completely different body shapes when striking the ball, two completely different sets of footwork to achieve each.

A chip is a different technique. My contention, which you're disagreeing with, is that a long ball from the centre of the field is not much different in technique from a whipped ball from the sidelines. I'm not going to try to convince you I'm right. I just disagree with your assertion.

But on top of that - you seem to be assuming that a defensive mid is incapable of crossing, or that a fullback is incapable of hitting a long ball from the centre.

Quote
What your calling minor adjustments are major changes.

Because they ARE minor adjustments. If they're major changes to you, you need a better coach :)

Quote
Would you say with a minor adjustment you can turn an overarm throw into an underarm throw? No. Of course not. Its a completely different throw!

Different techniques.

However, an overhand throw with top spin as opposed to back spin, would be a minor change.

You're getting confused between gross motor movement and fine motor movement in that example, Owens, mate.
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3175 on: March 8, 2018, 08:57:05 PM »
This CL Last 16 thread has taken a fascinatingly insightful twist :D

PoP, going back to my original question on the different passing skillsets, i.e.


And doesn't a good DM need a ..... a different range of passing?


I didn't actually mean the DM making crossfield passes, I meant more wouldn't they need to make more short passes in crowded areas, through balls, receiving the ball and moving it on under pressure, having MUCH less time on the ball to make the decision and execute, etc? Do these qualities not fall under your earlier definition of a skillset that a player has by the time he's 18-21, and are things that many full backs wont have in their locker because they haven't needed them?

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3176 on: March 8, 2018, 09:29:42 PM »
If you look at football formations in 4 "bands" instead of 3, then theoretically any player should be able to play across their "band" (Goalkeeper doesn't apply, as the keeper is a legal requirement for every team):



So a fullback playing in DM, and doing well, is not really a surprise, ever, because that's the "band" with the same tasks - block, tackle, mark, play the outball, push up, and cover central defenders.

More managers should be moving fullbacks into defensive mid, and vice versa, frankly ;D

Clynee for DM then.  :D
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3177 on: March 8, 2018, 09:35:37 PM »
I wonder if the problem with converting full backs into defensive midfielders is whether a player that has been coached to swivel and assess the play around them for only 180 degrees will be able to adjust to having their neck on a 360 degree swivel.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3178 on: March 9, 2018, 08:38:47 AM »
A chip is a different technique. My contention, which you're disagreeing with, is that a long ball from the centre of the field is not much different in technique from a whipped ball from the sidelines. I'm not going to try to convince you I'm right. I just disagree with your assertion.

But on top of that - you seem to be assuming that a defensive mid is incapable of crossing, or that a fullback is incapable of hitting a long ball from the centre.

Because they ARE minor adjustments. If they're major changes to you, you need a better coach :)

Different techniques.

However, an overhand throw with top spin as opposed to back spin, would be a minor change.

You're getting confused between gross motor movement and fine motor movement in that example, Owens, mate.
Please tell me where I said this?

Also we will have to agree to disagree on the technique issue. Chip/Cross/Long ball are three different techniques in my opinion. If your body shape, the place where you impact the ball and the power used are all different I fail to see how you can call it the same. Unless you've never played football before. With the overarm/underarm again I would argue that a topspin throw is a completely different technique to a backspin throw.

I'm not getting gross and minor motor movements mixed up, I just believe a change in minor motor movements in certain actions results in what I and most others would call a change in technique.

Here's a question for you. Would you say Sturridge's goal against Seville in the Europa League final used the same technique as Salah v Everton? I know pretty much every professional out there would say they are two different techniques but by your definition they are the same.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3179 on: March 9, 2018, 11:42:45 PM »
A win over either of those sides would be extremely hard-earned. They have the nous, the experience and the players who turn up with the heat is on.

On cassette, yeah?

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3180 on: March 9, 2018, 11:52:53 PM »
It's Spurs, Jill. More trolling the better ;D

Is that Jill from Holt?

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3181 on: March 13, 2018, 08:47:46 AM »
now that they have a match tonight, are we allowed to talk about these c*nts?

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3182 on: March 13, 2018, 08:49:09 AM »
now that they have a match tonight, are we allowed to talk about these c*nts?

What've Roma and Shakhtar done to you?!

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3183 on: March 13, 2018, 09:10:06 AM »
Letís hope for a Seville miracle. Canít see it personally theyíre shite generally.
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3184 on: March 13, 2018, 09:23:54 AM »
Letís hope for a Seville miracle. Canít see it personally theyíre shite generally.
An early goal and United is screwed, they will give lots of open spaces.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3185 on: March 13, 2018, 10:44:21 AM »
What've Roma and Shakhtar done to you?!

 ;D

That's the one I'll be watching, in Spanish! Cos for some reason Fox Sports decided this one didn't need to be on Fox Sports 1 or 2, so it's on Fox Deportes. Of the two games on tonight I'd have thought it was the only interesting fixture, but ya know how it is. 
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3186 on: March 13, 2018, 12:24:33 PM »
;D

That's the one I'll be watching, in Spanish! Cos for some reason Fox Sports decided this one didn't need to be on Fox Sports 1 or 2, so it's on Fox Deportes. Of the two games on tonight I'd have thought it was the only interesting fixture, but ya know how it is. 

The Spanish commentary is always far superior, even if your Spanish is only "football Spanish..."
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3187 on: March 13, 2018, 12:36:47 PM »
The Spanish commentary is always far superior, even if your Spanish is only "football Spanish..."

oh yeah for sure! One of the guys that often does the commentary for the Spanish sports channels is especially fantastic, regardless of how much Spanish you speak! One German cup game I was watching earlier in the season, he started singing in the middle of the game and not just a few seconds, he was belting through some song.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 12:39:23 PM by DiŽ Nullfuenfer »
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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3188 on: March 13, 2018, 01:32:08 PM »
now that they have a match tonight, are we allowed to talk about these c*nts?

Why weren't we allowed? why was the topic closed?

genuine question.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3189 on: March 13, 2018, 01:47:16 PM »
Letís hope for a Seville miracle. Canít see it personally theyíre shite generally.

It's defo not the Seville side from a few years ago that's for sure but they are still a capable outfit.  I have a feeling the referee is going to be a massive influence in this game in United's favour and can see a Rashford dive or two earning a red card for a Seville player.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3190 on: March 13, 2018, 02:08:57 PM »
Why weren't we allowed? why was the topic closed?

genuine question.

It was closed because we were playing them, same will happen for when we play Everton next month.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3191 on: March 13, 2018, 02:24:06 PM »
The Spanish commentary is always far superior, even if your Spanish is only "football Spanish..."
i just know "golaso" but i guess that's all i need ;)

Offline Klopp Your Hands

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3192 on: March 13, 2018, 02:42:02 PM »
Well at least neither tie is a dead rubber ala us or Man City.
All teams have a shot to go through, hopefully Sevilla will oblige us with a good result but I see 2-0 to Utd.

Shaktar have a serious chance to upset Roma, 1-1 I think.
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Offline Zimagic

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3193 on: March 13, 2018, 02:58:46 PM »
Well at least neither tie is a dead rubber ala us or Man City.
All teams have a shot to go through, hopefully Sevilla will oblige us with a good result but I see 2-0 to Utd.

Shaktar have a serious chance to upset Roma, 1-1 I think.

All it takes is a score draw for Seville. I can see a situation where they score a couple and sit on them for the remainder of the game.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3194 on: March 13, 2018, 03:49:33 PM »
Comfortable 2-0 to them written all over it tonight unfortunately.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3195 on: March 13, 2018, 04:40:15 PM »
If there is any justice in football these fuckers will go out tonight. Tired of them shitting their way through the season and reaping the rewards.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3196 on: March 13, 2018, 04:47:41 PM »
If there is any justice in football these fuckers will go out tonight. Tired of them shitting their way through the season and reaping the rewards.

Should of had 3 points maximum in last 3 and got 9.

Lets hope Sevilla play with some intent.
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Offline Garnier

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3197 on: March 13, 2018, 05:01:25 PM »
Over the last two years i've accumulated some ill feelings towards Sevilla, so it's a funny situation to root for them.

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3198 on: March 13, 2018, 05:49:46 PM »
Utd will win this no doubt about that,
I will happily cut my balls off and post them on here if they don't
Utd will win this no doubt about that,
I will happily cut my balls off and post them on here if they don't

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Re: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16
« Reply #3199 on: March 13, 2018, 06:04:34 PM »
Utd will win this no doubt about that,
I will happily cut my balls off and post them on here if they don't