Topic: The Klopp Template

[Dave McCoy]

It may suit Elliott and Carvalho individually but I'm not so sure we can actually play them together as the wings except in the most ideal of circumstances. League cup or something similar sure. In the PL or CL? It would probably just be a replay of the Everton game where they get caught up in the forward line and any turnover just goes right down to our box. Playing Nunez on the left wing doesn't solve this either. I think we might be looking at a formation/tactic change again if Jota joins Diaz as a long term injury though maybe there's a way to re-arrange the players that I'm not thinking of.

[tornado]

Wonderful tactics and execution from Klopp and a great day but somethings to ponder for the game ahead -

-What do we do for RB?
TAA is a special player and I hope goes on and become the most trophied Liverpool player of this generation, he will be a big part of whatever we achieve; but it is fair to say that the defensive stability we got today might have been missing if he were playing, even the last few minutes he was on, vaguely recall he got skipped past once. Depending on CB availability, do we keep playing Gomez/Milner and somehow figure out a role for TAA further forward (and what would that be), at least for games where he know he will be targeted. The topic has been discussed at length and dismissed but that was in the context of Trent being a relatively ok defender/great attacker at FB, now needle has shifted to poor defender/great attacker at FB; don't think you can be a FB and poor defender....and please "poor" is from the perspective of standard required for Liverpool to be a title contender and we can't even afford mediocre...I don;t think he is "poor" as such

- Should we ditch the high line - We have great attackers; we have been still scoring goals but not really from compressing the pitch and pressing situations; would still back our forward line to score atleast a goal or two per game but issue this season has been defensive vulnerability; we have the likes of Virgil, Joe, Konate and Matip; players who are half as talented are able to block out games, so why not us?

[Dave McCoy]

Wonderful tactics and execution from Klopp and a great day but somethings to ponder for the game ahead -

-What do we do for RB?
TAA is a special player and I hope goes on and become the most trophied Liverpool player of this generation, he will be a big part of whatever we achieve; but it is fair to say that the defensive stability we got today might have been missing if he were playing, even the last few minutes he was on, vaguely recall he got skipped past once. Depending on CB availability, do we keep playing Gomez/Milner and somehow figure out a role for TAA further forward (and what would that be), at least for games where he know he will be targeted. The topic has been discussed at length and dismissed but that was in the context of Trent being a relatively ok defender/great attacker at FB, now needle has shifted to poor defender/great attacker at FB; don't think you can be a FB and poor defender....and please "poor" is from the perspective of standard required for Liverpool to be a title contender and we can't even afford mediocre...I don;t think he is "poor" as such

- Should we ditch the high line - We have great attackers; we have been still scoring goals but not really from compressing the pitch and pressing situations; would still back our forward line to score atleast a goal or two per game but issue this season has been defensive vulnerability; we have the likes of Virgil, Joe, Konate and Matip; players who are half as talented are able to block out games, so why not us?

Trent can just do the same as Milner did today but better. There's no reason why we have to go back to the tactics of letting Trent roam and he was much more static in the Arsenal game before coming off injured.

For the high line, we already ditched it. We drop now the majority of the time. ManC had zero off-sides against them as far as I can recall.

[Wengerpresser101]

Wonderful tactics and execution from Klopp and a great day but somethings to ponder for the game ahead -

-What do we do for RB?
TAA is a special player and I hope goes on and become the most trophied Liverpool player of this generation, he will be a big part of whatever we achieve; but it is fair to say that the defensive stability we got today might have been missing if he were playing, even the last few minutes he was on, vaguely recall he got skipped past once. Depending on CB availability, do we keep playing Gomez/Milner and somehow figure out a role for TAA further forward (and what would that be), at least for games where he know he will be targeted. The topic has been discussed at length and dismissed but that was in the context of Trent being a relatively ok defender/great attacker at FB, now needle has shifted to poor defender/great attacker at FB; don't think you can be a FB and poor defender....and please "poor" is from the perspective of standard required for Liverpool to be a title contender and we can't even afford mediocre...I don;t think he is "poor" as such

I actually mentioned this in the post match thread.

Tactics wise I thought it was interesting how organized and structured defensively we looked with Milner's style of play compared to Trent. I rarely saw Milner bomb down the right or cross the halfway line, and he played with a huge amount of defensive discipline.

I feel like this has implications for Trent, in that it would be conducive to us and Trent if he increased his defensive discipline and positioning.

Personally I don't think we have to go as far as to drop Trent for another, but more like instill some of Milner in him. If he improves his defensive tactical side I don't see why he can't be like Philip Lahm/Dani Alves/Paolo Maldini (this last one is based of heard stories about rather than watched), who were all full backs that were good at going forward but also good defensively.

On the subject of formation however, I think it's interesting how Salah plays better centrally, so this provides the question of (if we go 4-4-2/4-4-1-1) who do we put as wingers, assuming we go with Firmino, Salah, Nunez as strikers. I figure Diaz, Jota, Carvalho would be at left wing, however right wing I can't really think of anyone other than Elliot.

[Dave McCoy]

I actually mentioned this in the post match thread.

Personally I don't think we have to go as far as to drop Trent for another, but more like instill some of Milner in him. If he improves his defensive tactical side I don't see why he can't be like Philip Lahm/Dani Alves/Paolo Maldini (this last one is based of heard stories about rather than watched), who were all full backs that were good at going forward but also good defensively.

On the subject of formation however, I think it's interesting how Salah plays better centrally, so this provides the question of (if we go 4-4-2/4-4-1-1) who do we put as wingers, assuming we go with Firmino, Salah, Nunez as strikers. I figure Diaz, Jota, Carvalho would be at left wing, however right wing I can't really think of anyone other than Elliot.

The other thing to note though is ManC completely targeted Milner and overloaded that side. If you look at their pass map you have Gundogan, Ake, Silva and Foden all basically camped out on the left with only De Bruyne and Cancelo on the right. Milner really didn't have any choice but to stay reserved because of this.

Edit: here's the map

[Wengerpresser101]

The other thing to note though is ManC completely targeted Milner and overloaded that side. If you look at their pass map you have Gundogan, Ake, Silva and Foden all basically camped out on the left with only De Bruyne and Cancelo on the right. Milner really didn't have any choice but to stay reserved because of this.

Hmm..well I do wonder, in an alternative scenario where Trent wasn't injured and played instead of Milner, with City still targeting our right, would Trent have done the same as Milner and stay reserved, or would he have bombed forward unlike Milner? Personally I think he would have bombed forward. So I feel like that's where Trent could learn from Milner on discerning when to go forward and when to stay back (or track back), where to position himself defensively.

One thing Trent has over Milner is age, pace, and stamina, so he probably could take more liberty on roaming the pitch. Reflecting on the few goals that we have conceded on our right this season, I feel like Trent could have done better with his positioning in tracking the runners and being in the right zone for interception, which was what I thought Milner did really well in this game, with his positioning, intercepting, and tackling. 

Edit: Nice map, Gomez and Milner did really well to stifle all those plays.

[Dave McCoy]

Hmm..well I do wonder, in an alternative scenario where Trent wasn't injured and played instead of Milner, with City still targeting our right, would Trent have done the same as Milner and stay reserved, or would he have bombed forward unlike Milner? Personally I think he would have bombed forward. So I feel like that's where Trent could learn from Milner on discerning when to go forward and when to stay back, where to position himself defensively.

One thing Trent has over Milner is age, pace, and stamina, so he probably could take more liberty on roaming the pitch. Reflecting on the few goals that we have conceded on our right this season, I feel like Trent could have done better with his positioning in tracking the runners and being in the right zone for interception, which was what I thought Milner did really well in this game, with his positioning, intercepting, and tackling. 

Edit: Nice map, Gomez and Milner did really well to stifle all those plays.

In the Arsenal game with this same tactical setup Trent was maybe not as reserved as Milner was today but he certainly wasn't going walkabout like he was in the previous games. I think there's probably a happy medium here that will get found. Also keep in mind that as we drop our line more and by extension defend more we're asking Trent and all the other defenders to defend more than what was initially expected of them.

Milner definitely rolled back the clock but he only had 3 tackles, no interceptions. He wasn't N'golo Kante reincarnated out there, just basically got in the way enough to slow things down.

[Wengerpresser101]

In the Arsenal game with this same tactical setup Trent was maybe not as reserved as Milner was today but he certainly wasn't going walkabout like he was in the previous games. I think there's probably a happy medium here that will get found. Also keep in mind that as we drop our line more and by extension defend more we're asking Trent and all the other defenders to defend more than what was initially expected of them.

Milner definitely rolled back the clock but he only had 3 tackles, no interceptions. He wasn't N'golo Kante reincarnated out there, just basically got in the way enough to slow things down.

Yeh happy medium and getting in the way, that's what I meant I feel the way Trent should go. 

On the subject of the Arsenal game, in that game with the first two goals we conceded, Trent was actually in the defensive half for both. For the first goal, I felt he could have done better to cut out that pass through the defence had he closed down the angle towards Odegaard, and in the second goal, to stay central to intercept/get in the way of balls into our area rather than commiting to the tackle and get taken out, as Henderson was already marking Martinelli. Those are two instances examples of where I feel he could be better in defensive positioning and anticipation/awareness. 

Personally I still want Trent as full back as I think he has yuge potential, and I think that this season is good practice/growth for him because he doesn't have a midfield defensive shield to protect him like he had (Gini, prime Hendo) in the last few seasons, so he will face attacking situations more, and hopefully, with experience, increase his defensive tactical acumen. Especially since we have nothing to lose in this season so can afford more errors as learning experience. Key thing that he learns and grows from it of course.

[CanuckYNWA]

It certainly suits Elliott and Carvalho. The 8s in the 4-3-3 have a lot asked of them tactically, whereas the 4 keeps it simple. Also allows Fab and Thiago to cover each other. Probably just lacking depth for suitable CMs and LM.

4-4-2 suits pretty much everyone imo

Carvalho and Elliot get way more freedom in their wide mid roles as kind of wide 10's and more room to what they love to do without getting congested with the wide forwards in a 4-3-3 when playing as 8s. They also have a lot more cover behind them with two holding 6s

I also think the double pivot 6 works best for Hendo too as he just has to be strict with his momvements and shape and has way less freedom so less chance to be caught out

Jota also can play all 4 roles across the front as hes a great 10 so does well in the wide roles and can play the deeper forward or just play and out and striker if needed

Salah is deployed best around the box and was way to wide in the new 4-3-3 they were trying to wasnt much of a threat where as before in the old 4-3-3 it was more of a diamond 4-4-2 when attacking with bobby dropping deep and Mane ans Salah isolated against the Fullback or Centre backs in their channel

Fabinho and Thiago both operate best in a double pivot too and Nunez gets the freedom to float like he likes in his role too and then of course Bobby used to be a 10 and basically gets to play that in this role without having to worry about constantly vacating the box because his other forward is there.

I also think Diaz will thrive in this  role too where he gets way more room to do what he likes as he already likes to receive the ball deep

I just dont know how you go back to the 4-3-3 with the players we have

[CanuckYNWA]

Man they really stifled their best creative player in this game. Focused way too much on the left channel where Milner and Gomez were and basically KdB barely offered anything, and the one time he got the ball he created prolly their best chance with the Haaland header that Alisson saved

For me KdB is one of if not their most important players. Give him time and space and he will rip you to shreds

[Knight]

To be fair to the 433 there’s a non crazy version, where the 8s aren’t on top of our wide forwards and Trent doesn’t have a free role that would be fine. I don’t think we have mobile enough midfielders for it but it wouldn’t be the end of the world. I find it incredible that we’re so lacking what we need in midfield that we’ve been forced into a change of shape though.

[Fromola]

In the Arsenal game with this same tactical setup Trent was maybe not as reserved as Milner was today but he certainly wasn't going walkabout like he was in the previous games. I think there's probably a happy medium here that will get found. Also keep in mind that as we drop our line more and by extension defend more we're asking Trent and all the other defenders to defend more than what was initially expected of them.

Milner definitely rolled back the clock but he only had 3 tackles, no interceptions. He wasn't N'golo Kante reincarnated out there, just basically got in the way enough to slow things down.

Gameplan went out the window after a minute at Arsenal which didn't help (offside goal). Did well the rest of the half but we tired badly second half. The crowd really helped yesterday and actually having a lead to defend for once and not chasing the game.

Been obvious we need to be a bit more compact. Having Milner at RB and Gomez through the middle helped make that decision for us but both were great. We need to be difficult to play and score against. That's half the battle because there's plenty of goals in us.

[plura]

Very kind of run of games coming up with the exception of the champions league and spurs. With the injuries mounting again, the team will probably look something like this in the immediate future:

            Ali

Trent Gomez Vvd Robbo

Elliott Thiago Fab Nunez

         Mo Bobby

Carvalho might come in and take a place on the left or right from time to time and Hendo will rotate into the middle two but apart from that, those 13 players will now play the majority of the minutes with Tsimikas and Millie coming in to give rest to the full backs. Hopefully we get the point against Ajax to render that last game meaningless.

Yeah I think we shouldn’t play with both Elliott and Carvalho on ‘the wings’ at the same time. Obviously it’s not perhaps an old school 442 with wingers, but if Elliott or Carvalho plays I’d like a Diaz type player on the other side. If he’s not available then Jota, I could even look for Nunez as a third option. But thereabouts it gets tricky, Nunez should be further up and not involved in the early link up play too much.

But if possible I’d love a two forward line of Salah and Nunez. That would be lethal as fuck.

[Dree]

Elliott playing 70 mins and being subbed for Carvalho probably is okay for RW.

I wouldn’t be worried about Trent in yesterdays line up - he gets right sided 6 and a disciplined RW in front of him, whereas he’s usually been exposed this season.

The 442 only works for me with Thiago and Fabinho though. If Jones is back we could probably go back to 433 anyway.

[ljycb]

It's a shame if Jota is out for a while, but if it gives Carvalho a clear run of games while opening up opportunities to use Jones and Oxlade-Chamberlain in more advanced positions in this 4-4-2 then it could still be to our benefit.

[Passmaster Molby]

The good thing about our shift to 442 is the fact it saves the legs of our central midfielders. In a 3 it meant the wider 2 were shuffling across to cover the fullbacks and we were really struggling. It also gives us great opportunity to create pressing overloads in areas where you can get 3 or 4 players on the flanks hunting the ball (fullback, wide mid, one of the centremids and one of the strikers) without being vulnerable to the switch of play. Nice and compact defensively and with 2 up top you can always threaten the opposition on the transition with a ball into either channel, as we were doing late on with Nunez and Salah as City tried to push forward late on.

I hope we stick with this as it suits the players we have much more than 433 right now.

[Dree]

The good thing about our shift to 442 is the fact it saves the legs of our central midfielders. In a 3 it meant the wider 2 were shuffling across to cover the fullbacks and we were really struggling. It also gives us great opportunity to create pressing overloads in areas where you can get 3 or 4 players on the flanks hunting the ball (fullback, wide mid, one of the centremids and one of the strikers) without being vulnerable to the switch of play. Nice and compact defensively and with 2 up top you can always threaten the opposition on the transition with a ball into either channel, as we were doing late on with Nunez and Salah as City tried to push forward late on.

I hope we stick with this as it suits the players we have much more than 433 right now.

The trouble is it relies a lot on Thiago and Fabinho unless Keita comes back or Henderson improves tactically to play in the 2. He was fine yesterday, but even at points Salah was yelling at him to stop pressing the City CBs.

[Lynndenberries]

For the rest of the season at least, it looks like the way forward. The midfield conversation has been done to death, but it really feels like this formation suits several of our players better, mainly Nuñez, Carvalho, and Elliott. We haven’t seen Jones yet, although I imagine playing him on the left would be an ideal scenario for him.

The main question mark is around Trent. Could we potentially see him on the right? And have Gomez and Milner play right back?

The main test will come against teams who give us the ball and force us to dictate play, but for now we finally look like a coherent team.

[WanderlustRed]

Yeh happy medium and getting in the way, that's what I meant I feel the way Trent should go. 

On the subject of the Arsenal game, in that game with the first two goals we conceded, Trent was actually in the defensive half for both. For the first goal, I felt he could have done better to cut out that pass through the defence had he closed down the angle towards Odegaard, and in the second goal, to stay central to intercept/get in the way of balls into our area rather than commiting to the tackle and get taken out, as Henderson was already marking Martinelli.

Klopp addressed this. I believe he said (paraphrasing) that the Odegaard position is "not one that is to be defended." Basically, that's what every football team is trying to get all of the time -- their best creator in zone 14 with multiple passing options. Nothing Trent can do about that. The play has to be stopped prior to that -- which Klopp said as well.

I have no idea what to think on the 2nd one. At first it looked bizarre, but could be that Liverpool players are taught to go and win the ball if they think it's there to be won -- and it was, Trent just didn't win it. I honestly don't know and I don't know that it was ever addressed publicly (good reporters might have asked directly, but the English media is so sensationalized that they never ask such erudite questions; they'd rather have the studio analyze what *they* think the orders should have been). Also worth mentioning that being in the center of defense is not exactly typical for a right back -- probably not a situation that has been trained a lot. Clearly other things broke down for that to be the situation.

It's funny how simply having help makes people not notice mistakes. I remember thinking against City when someone ghosted past Robbo only for the next man to make the intervention, "I bet a lot of people will never even noticed that Robbo got beat there." Every player makes at least one mistake -- probably more -- every game. The difference is most of them, you never notice bc they don't result in anything, or there's help, or they recover. People only ever notice the ones that result in goals or exciting non-goals (saves, last ditch challenges, shots over the bar, etc.)

[kasperoff]

The 4-4-2 worked like a charm and that deeper line was a tonic after watching our high-line get ripped to shreds by some average opposition this season. How sweet that we actually won the game by exploiting someone else's high line!

I wonder if we have the courage to stick with it going forward against seemingly easier sides?

I just don't think the high-line can work when we don't have the power and speed in midfield. Without the press, we can't have the high-line IMO. The numbers show that we are getting outrun over the course of games for the first time since Klopp got here. I don't imagine that is intentional or tactical. Rather the players getting older.

[WanderlustRed]

The other thing to note though is ManC completely targeted Milner and overloaded that side. If you look at their pass map you have Gundogan, Ake, Silva and Foden all basically camped out on the left with only De Bruyne and Cancelo on the right. Milner really didn't have any choice but to stay reserved because of this.

Edit: here's the map

Maybe they weren't targeting. Maybe Liverpool did a good job of preventing the ball getting to their main man in midfield. It's not like City just gets to play the ball wherever they want. I'd certainly rather the left have the ball than KDB and Cancelo on the right.

Seems the problems might have been Rodri and Akanji. The most common pass by Dias seems to be Ake (obviously), or Rodri, and then Rodri either passes to Akanji -- who passes back to Rodri or to Dias -- or back to Dias, occasionally to Gundogan or Silva (can't tell them apart really, that can't have been the plan). Doesn't seem like they could get the ball to the right side from Rodri or Akanji. So Rodri and Akanji couldn't get the ball forward on the right to feed KDB and Cancelo, making City one-sided on their weaker side. Seems like exactly what Liverpool would want, and City wouldn't.

I'd also love to know why Cancelo -- no doubt City's worst defender of the back several plus Rodri -- was isolated as the deepest man in the middle of the park (as a RWB/RM) against Salah. Mismatch and Alisson wasted no time finding it.

[clinical]

Nunez and Salah up font. Trent right wing for a bit.

[Knight]

Nunez and Salah up font. Trent right wing for a bit.

Trent is not very press resistant and not great on the half turn, this is not a good idea.

[Magix]

It'd be interesting if this iteration of 4-4-2 becomes our mainstay for the season and how Trent adapts to this. Elliot playing in the tactically disciplined manner he did against City on the right side of midfield with Trent being less adventurous and playing as a quarterbacking right-back, passing from deeper, might work.

[killer-heels]

It'd be interesting if this iteration of 4-4-2 becomes our mainstay for the season and how Trent adapts to this. Elliot playing in the tactically disciplined manner he did against City on the right side of midfield with Trent being less adventurous and playing as a quarterbacking right-back, passing from deeper, might work.

Thing is Robertson got into loads of good positions high up, so its not like Trent would have to stay back all the time. Could even be that old fashioned concept that one attacks and one stays back and they take it in turns.

[Magix]

Thing is Robertson got into loads of good positions high up, so its not like Trent would have to stay back all the time. Could even be that old fashioned concept that one attacks and one stays back and they take it in turns.

I think that's definitely the case, with one fullback staying back to form a back three against those over-the-top diagonal balls we've been vulnerable to.

[Dave McCoy]

The 4-4-2 is an obvious crutch being used out of necessity or desperation depending on your view point. I highly doubt we continue with it past this season unless the personnel were to be completely unchanged.

[Ghost Town]

The 4-4-2 is an obvious crutch being used out of necessity or desperation depending on your view point. I highly doubt we continue with it past this season unless the personnel were to be completely unchanged.

Maybe but the 'functional midfield' also came about out of necessity; it didn't really represent Klopp's tactics previously and belied some of the players bought (e.g Keita, and arguably Gini the AM) and targetted to buy (e.g Fekir) but once it started working we stuck with it.

Klopp can be quite pragmatic and knows a good thing when he sees it, so if it ends up paying real dividends this season then who knows?

[afc tukrish]

It'd be interesting if this iteration of 4-4-2 becomes our mainstay for the season and how Trent adapts to this. Elliot playing in the tactically disciplined manner he did against City on the right side of midfield with Trent being less adventurous and playing as a quarterbacking right-back, passing from deeper, might work.

Or overlapping Elliot in the half space to cross for wrecking ball Nunez to nod home...

[Coolie High]

Klopp addressed this. I believe he said (paraphrasing) that the Odegaard position is "not one that is to be defended." Basically, that's what every football team is trying to get all of the time -- their best creator in zone 14 with multiple passing options. Nothing Trent can do about that. The play has to be stopped prior to that -- which Klopp said as well.

I have no idea what to think on the 2nd one. At first it looked bizarre, but could be that Liverpool players are taught to go and win the ball if they think it's there to be won -- and it was, Trent just didn't win it. I honestly don't know and I don't know that it was ever addressed publicly (good reporters might have asked directly, but the English media is so sensationalized that they never ask such erudite questions; they'd rather have the studio analyze what *they* think the orders should have been). Also worth mentioning that being in the center of defense is not exactly typical for a right back -- probably not a situation that has been trained a lot. Clearly other things broke down for that to be the situation.

It's funny how simply having help makes people not notice mistakes. I remember thinking against City when someone ghosted past Robbo only for the next man to make the intervention, "I bet a lot of people will never even noticed that Robbo got beat there." Every player makes at least one mistake -- probably more -- every game. The difference is most of them, you never notice bc they don't result in anything, or there's help, or they recover. People only ever notice the ones that result in goals or exciting non-goals (saves, last ditch challenges, shots over the bar, etc.)

Good post.

[ljycb]

Klopp addressed this. I believe he said (paraphrasing) that the Odegaard position is "not one that is to be defended." Basically, that's what every football team is trying to get all of the time -- their best creator in zone 14 with multiple passing options. Nothing Trent can do about that. The play has to be stopped prior to that -- which Klopp said as well.

I have no idea what to think on the 2nd one. At first it looked bizarre, but could be that Liverpool players are taught to go and win the ball if they think it's there to be won -- and it was, Trent just didn't win it. I honestly don't know and I don't know that it was ever addressed publicly (good reporters might have asked directly, but the English media is so sensationalized that they never ask such erudite questions; they'd rather have the studio analyze what *they* think the orders should have been). Also worth mentioning that being in the center of defense is not exactly typical for a right back -- probably not a situation that has been trained a lot. Clearly other things broke down for that to be the situation.

It's funny how simply having help makes people not notice mistakes. I remember thinking against City when someone ghosted past Robbo only for the next man to make the intervention, "I bet a lot of people will never even noticed that Robbo got beat there." Every player makes at least one mistake -- probably more -- every game. The difference is most of them, you never notice bc they don't result in anything, or there's help, or they recover. People only ever notice the ones that result in goals or exciting non-goals (saves, last ditch challenges, shots over the bar, etc.)

Very well said.

[Dave McCoy]

Maybe but the 'functional midfield' also came about out of necessity; it didn't really represent Klopp's tactics previously and belied some of the players bought (e.g Keita, and arguably Gini the AM) and targetted to buy (e.g Fekir) but once it started working we stuck with it.

Klopp can be quite pragmatic and knows a good thing when he sees it, so if it ends up paying real dividends this season then who knows?

I'd argue the opposite. The functional midfield was used as a way to improve and build on the tactics already being used because Klopp and the coaching staff realized that Trent was a gifted attacking player. The actual jobs themselves didn't change, just the positions on the field that were performing them. The Fekir signing was part of the next iteration in that the RCM was to no longer just hold station behind Trent but join in the attack which we started seeing that next season. Fekir would have probably done an amazing job if we had signed him in that role. A bigger and better version of Elliott in my mind. I think Keita did suffer a bit in that we didn't use him in the way he was used at Leipzig but same as Gini a good player is a good player and overall he adapted just fine.

As I noted last week the switch to the 4-4-2 is an abandonment of a lot of principles that had gotten the team to this point. We didn't induce one single off-side call yesterday, could you imagine that ever happening even just last season? Long term I can't see how Klopp would ever want to stick with this but you are right when he needs to be pragmatic he certainly can be.

[Ghost Town]

I'd argue the opposite. The functional midfield was used as a way to improve and build on the tactics already being used because Klopp and the coaching staff realized that Trent was a gifted attacking player. The actual jobs themselves didn't change, just the positions on the field that were performing them. The Fekir signing was part of the next iteration in that the RCM was to no longer just hold station behind Trent but join in the attack which we started seeing that next season. Fekir would have probably done an amazing job if we had signed him in that role. A bigger and better version of Elliott in my mind. I think Keita did suffer a bit in that what we didn't use him in the way he was used at Leipzig because of that but same as Gini a good player is a good player and overall he adapted just fine.

As I noted last week the switch to the 4-4-2 is an abandonment of a lot of principles that had gotten the team to this point. We didn't induce one single off-side call yesterday, could you imagine that ever happening even just last season?

Maybe but at the time I remember the expectation to be that the attacking aspect of the midfield lost when Coutinho left would be replaced, and the players bought and linked seemed to be heading that way. It seemed to take a long time for even quite perceptive fans to fully internalise that our creativity was now coming from the front three and full backs, not the midfield.

I agree that once the creative prowess of the two fullbacks (Robbo's neck and neck assisting in those early periods tends to be forgotten) was fully appreciated a functional midfield became settled as a consequence; but I'd say that it might be a bit hindsight to say that was always the plan. There's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario as to whether a clear plan to use the fullbacks in this unusal way resulted in the functional midfield or whether the extant midfield personnel's skillsets necessarily led to the fullbacks being tasked with more creative responsibilities.

The fact that Klopp continued to look for and plan for creative input from midfield could suggest that the FM was only ever seen as a temporary measure, but was retained while it worked.

Guess we'll need to wait for Klopp's book, (Noooo!, ), to be sure.

Long term I can't see how Klopp would ever want to stick with this but you are right when he needs to be pragmatic he certainly can be.

Yep that's the main takeaway

[lionel_messias]

The 4-4-2 is an obvious crutch being used out of necessity or desperation depending on your view point. I highly doubt we continue with it past this season unless the personnel were to be completely unchanged.

But to play 4-3-3 as Klopp likes it, you probably need 5-6 extremely fit and injury-free midfielders. So, say you take Milner, Ox and Keita from our list and de-select Harvey Elliot on suitability, that's a lot of money needed to refresh the team there?

Whereas, stick with 4-4-2, arguably you work with two new players, and bed them in, around Thiago, Fabinho, Henderson fairly gradually...

[Dave McCoy]

Maybe but at the time I remember the expectation to be that the attacking aspect of the midfield lost when Coutinho left would be replaced, and the players bought and linked seemed to be heading that way. It seemed to take a long time for even quite perceptive fans to fully internalise that our creativity was now coming from the front three and full backs, not the midfield.

I agree that once the creative prowess of the two fullbacks (Robbo's neck and neck assisting in those early periods tends to be forgotten) was fully appreciated a fucntional midfield became settled as a consequence; but I'd say that it might be a bit hindsight to say that was always the plan. There's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario as to whether a clear plan to use the fullbacks in this unusal way resulted in the functional midfield or whether the extant midfield personnel's skillsets necessarily led to the fullbacks being tasked with more creative responsibilities.

The fact that Klopp continued to look for and plan for creative input from midfield could suggest that the FM was only ever seen as a temporary measure, but was retained while it worked.

Guess we'll need to wait for Klopp's book, (Noooo!, ), to be sure.
Yep that's the main takeaway

I think you're kind of getting lost in the weeds here. There is a difference between "same tactics, different positions performing them" and "clearly different tactics". However the functional midfield came about it wasn't completely detached from what the team was already doing. If you flipped around who was attacking and who was staying reserved it would not look appreciably different on the field.

As the team evolved and we became more and more ball dominant then having even more players on the field able to contribute to the attack makes sense. Hence trading out Gini for Thiago. And again the functional midfield as you think of it from 19/20 was already changing in 20/21 leading to probably our best statistical season under Klopp last year in 21/22 where the RCM was no longer just "functional".

The change to the 4-4-2 basically tosses all of that out the window. You don't just take years of work where you are making conscious decisions to not move players on because they'll supposedly grow and get even better as they learn that system and toss it out unless you have no other choice.

[CanuckYNWA]

But to play 4-3-3 as Klopp likes it, you probably need 5-6 extremely fit and injury-free midfielders. So, say you take Milner, Ox and Keita from our list and de-select Harvey Elliot on suitability, that's a lot of money needed to refresh the team there?

Whereas, stick with 4-4-2, arguably you work with two new players, and bed them in, around Thiago, Fabinho, Henderson fairly gradually...

This for me - the 4-3-3 system just doesnt suit Carvalho or Elliot at all. So you have to either shoehorn them into an 8 or a LW/RW role. The Wide Mid role is a like a wide 10 where they get LOTS of space to do as they like and suit them best. They are both 10s basically

Combined with the 4-3-3 requires insane work levels from our 8s who are all injury prone, literally every single one of them. So if we go back to 4-3-3 then I agree we probably need 3-4 mids and then what do you try and force Elliot and Carvalho into positions that dont suit them best

Maybe its not 4-4-2 next season but I think a double pivot suits us best. Its prolly a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2. Klopp used to play a 4-2-3-1 and if we get the player we are hoping to get he also plays in a double pivot.

[Magix]

Also, and I might be wrong on this, but our midfield young'uns - Morton, Bajcetic - seem more suited to playing in a midfield two. Although Bradley with his increasing experience at playing wing-back, could turn out to be a useful asset as an #8 in our 4-3-3.

[RedG13]

For the rest of the season at least, it looks like the way forward. The midfield conversation has been done to death, but it really feels like this formation suits several of our players better, mainly Nuñez, Carvalho, and Elliott. We haven’t seen Jones yet, although I imagine playing him on the left would be an ideal scenario for him.

The main question mark is around Trent. Could we potentially see him on the right? And have Gomez and Milner play right back?

The main test will come against teams who give us the ball and force us to dictate play, but for now we finally look like a coherent team.

Trent will play RB is what I expect. Jones will play the same role as Thiago is what I expect also.
I think it going to look much clearer as the 4231/442 type then how lopsided and odd it got within a 433. Feels like it just made everything simpler.

[Ghost Town]

I think you're kind of getting lost in the weeds here. There is a difference between "same tactics, different positions performing them" and "clearly different tactics". However the functional midfield came about it wasn't completely detached from what the team was already doing.

Sure, but I wasn't really discussing tactics in any way; the point was simply that when something starts working Klopp has previous for sticking with it, whatever the plan may otherwise have been.

It's just a speculative punt, that maybe (not definitely) if the 4-4-2 begins to reap successes he may decide to stick with it even if the original intention was to only use it temporarily. Of course it would effect which new players are brought in thereafter

Just musing, nothing more.

[Dave McCoy]

But to play 4-3-3 as Klopp likes it, you probably need 5-6 extremely fit and injury-free midfielders. So, say you take Milner, Ox and Keita from our list and de-select Harvey Elliot on suitability, that's a lot of money needed to refresh the team there?

Whereas, stick with 4-4-2, arguably you work with two new players, and bed them in, around Thiago, Fabinho, Henderson fairly gradually...

Oh I agree in that if you can only count on Thiago, Fabinho and Henderson then you need to move to a formation where you can always rotate between the 3 of them. The bigger issue though is that while Hendo falling off a cliff physically isn't that surprising you'd have to say Fabinho's is. He won no tackles yesterday, dribbled by 3 times and just had the 1 interception. Right now the whole functioning of our midfield is seemingly solely dependant on Thiago. Should preface this with saying we don't play ManC every game but for any chance of winning something this year this is a huge issue.

Sure, but I wasn't really discussing tactics in any way; the point was simply that when something starts working Klopp has previous for sticking with it, whatever the plan may otherwise have been.

It's just a speculative punt, that maybe (not definitely) if the 4-4-2 begins to reap successes he may decide to stick with it even if the original intention was to only use it temporarily. Of course it would effect which new players are brought in thereafter

Just musing, nothing more.

If you look around at different managers they have a system that works for them and they don't really ever vary from that because that's what got them to the top level in the first place. Well unless you're a former PL hero like Lampard or ManU player like Bruce where you just get handed jobs regardless. But aside from that, for the managers that really earn it, then they all have a set system that they believe will lead to winning. Klopp is no different. We're being pragmatic right now because we have to but given a choice I don't doubt Klopp will go right back to what he knows and believes works best.