Topic: The Klopp Template

[El Lobo]

we knew the age profile of this team when won the CL...you have to allow for some players wanting to leave for other reasons, only Mane has stung us in this way since.

I would love to know what the thinking was within about the next iteration of this team, and how things may have changed over the last few years..
Whatever happened, we are now in the position where we need at least 2 in our midfield that are trustworthy and can play most of the season....the quality of whoever we bring in can be improved upon -Klopp is still Klopp. So I wouldn't have thought we'd be in for just one big midfield signing in the next 2 transfer windows but a couple atleast worth the same amount due to squad requirements

I have no idea where the money would be coming from, considering how much we've just spent on nunez recently and that we have no players that can be sold for huge amounts of money - our usual way into the market when spending big..
I am yet to see any reason why our consistent net spend (under this ownership) cannot be increased inline with our raised profile and success off the field which could allow for some extra spending also.

As for this season, whatever template klopp had in mind has to be shelved for firefighting due to injuries and terrible collective loss of form - we may yet get to see what he intended for us to play like after the WC. I am also hoping we have a player lined up for January 1st.

It seems the idea was for a new young CM coming in, Harvey potentially getting more football in midfield too, Ibou cementing a starting place, a young new CF in Nunez. But then we've not identified an alternative to Tchouameni, Harvey at RCM has been a bit of a disaster considering how poorly Mo and Trent are playing, Ibou has been injured, Nunez has been stop start due to suspension and then coming into a team low on confidence. So a team that was potentially going to have a 22 year old and two 23 year olds replacing three over 30 year olds in the starting XI suddenly hasn't and it looks like the team has been 'neglected' and 'allowed to grow old together' when a fair whack of it has just been misfortune, to an extent.

[Redric1970]

It seems the idea was for a new young CM coming in, Harvey potentially getting more football in midfield too, Ibou cementing a starting place, a young new CF in Nunez. But then we've not identified an alternative to Tchouameni, Harvey at RCM has been a bit of a disaster considering how poorly Mo and Trent are playing, Ibou has been injured, Nunez has been stop start due to suspension and then coming into a team low on confidence. So a team that was potentially going to have a 22 year old and two 23 year olds replacing three over 30 year olds in the starting XI suddenly hasn't and it looks like the team has been 'neglected' and 'allowed to grow old together' when a fair whack of it has just been misfortune, to an extent.

Unfortunately there’s a fine line between misfortune and mismanagement (and I don’t mean klopp) the issue now is there is no easy or cheap fix and FSG will have to do something they haven’t done before or if they don’t well things will definitely get interesting.

[Schmidt]

we knew the age profile of this team when won the CL...you have to allow for some players wanting to leave for other reasons, only Mane has stung us in this way since.

I would love to know what the thinking was within about the next iteration of this team, and how things may have changed over the last few years..
Whatever happened, we are now in the position where we need at least 2 in our midfield that are trustworthy and can play most of the season....the quality of whoever we bring in can be improved upon -Klopp is still Klopp. So I wouldn't have thought we'd be in for just one big midfield signing in the next 2 transfer windows but a couple atleast worth the same amount due to squad requirements

I have no idea where the money would be coming from, considering how much we've just spent on nunez recently and that we have no players that can be sold for huge amounts of money - our usual way into the market when spending big..
I am yet to see any reason why our consistent net spend (under this ownership) cannot be increased inline with our raised profile and success off the field which could allow for some extra spending also.

As for this season, whatever template klopp had in mind has to be shelved for firefighting due to injuries and terrible collective loss of form - we may yet get to see what he intended for us to play like after the WC. I am also hoping we have a player lined up for January 1st.

We seem to prefer gambling on the fitness of our players over gambling in the market. There's logic to it, if you gamble on a players fitness and lose you cause a temporary problem, if you gamble on a transfer and lose you're potentially stuck for 4-5 seasons spending money on that problem.

The issue is that we're gambling too often and too hard. We seemed to think that because our team stayed relatively injury free last season that it would somehow continue, then when the usual suspects got injured we (the club) put on a shocked face. The club know they have fucked up, unfortunately it's too late now and the worry is that the mistake will have longer lasting repercussions.

[El Lobo]

Unfortunately there’s a fine line between misfortune and mismanagement (and I don’t mean klopp) the issue now is there is no easy or cheap fix and FSG will have to do something they haven’t done before or if they don’t well things will definitely get interesting.

There’s not

[Redric1970]

There’s not

We will agree to disagree buddy lol, although I don’t think having your entire midfield all get old together isnt misfortune but once again that just my opinion and as my wife and kids frequently tell me I’m usually wrong.

[redk84]

It seems the idea was for a new young CM coming in, Harvey potentially getting more football in midfield too, Ibou cementing a starting place, a young new CF in Nunez. But then we've not identified an alternative to Tchouameni, Harvey at RCM has been a bit of a disaster considering how poorly Mo and Trent are playing, Ibou has been injured, Nunez has been stop start due to suspension and then coming into a team low on confidence. So a team that was potentially going to have a 22 year old and two 23 year olds replacing three over 30 year olds in the starting XI suddenly hasn't and it looks like the team has been 'neglected' and 'allowed to grow old together' when a fair whack of it has just been misfortune, to an extent.

I find that bit surrounding the midfield the harder bit to believe. If we were going to spend that much on a CM surely we'd have alternatives? There was no option to wait like the VVD situation...when we wanted an attacker we "ended up" with Mo in the past too, which worked out well! Doesn't sit quite right.
I know Harvey was regarded highly by our coaches and some fans on here but he's not exactly established in the team either and I thought he would be used as a luxury more than necessity

which i think may lead on to the post below

We seem to prefer gambling on the fitness of our players over gambling in the market. There's logic to it, if you gamble on a players fitness and lose you cause a temporary problem, if you gamble on a transfer and lose you're potentially stuck for 4-5 seasons spending money on that problem.

The issue is that we're gambling too often and too hard. We seemed to think that because our team stayed relatively injury free last season that it would somehow continue, then when the usual suspects got injured we (the club) put on a shocked face. The club know they have fucked up, unfortunately it's too late now and the worry is that the mistake will have longer lasting repercussions.

I agree with the first statement, I do think we do that and I don't think it's necessarily wrong most of the time. Better to not end up with players you don't want though there has to be a compromise as we can't compete with the highest bidders. I'd have thought 20/21 would have been the lesson in reference to your 2nd statement..

But all we can do now is get the best out of who we have available - that surely also needs to mean getting Mo back firing again because with just him alone he can put the opponent on the back foot. Sure up the back. Stop being daft and going a goal down first and foremost...need to start playing like we're in the trenches and show more aggression

[tubby]

If Klopp's template is dependent on hard running, athletic midfielders, then why has he been so intent on playing Elliott as an 8?  The complete opposite of what you would expect in there.

[Asam]

It seems the idea was for a new young CM coming in, Harvey potentially getting more football in midfield too, Ibou cementing a starting place, a young new CF in Nunez. But then we've not identified an alternative to Tchouameni, Harvey at RCM has been a bit of a disaster considering how poorly Mo and Trent are playing, Ibou has been injured, Nunez has been stop start due to suspension and then coming into a team low on confidence. So a team that was potentially going to have a 22 year old and two 23 year olds replacing three over 30 year olds in the starting XI suddenly hasn't and it looks like the team has been 'neglected' and 'allowed to grow old together' when a fair whack of it has just been misfortune, to an extent.

having a bunch of injury prone players getting injured isn’t misfortune

if you can’t find the strength to just say they fucked up that’s up to you of
course but most of the forum don’t need to create a fake narrative to cover up for it

[skipper757]

If Klopp's template is dependent on hard running, athletic midfielders, then why has he been so intent on playing Elliott as an 8?  The complete opposite of what you would expect in there.

Maybe Klopp sees the limitations of the athleticism of this group of midfielders and is trying an alternative approach (more around creativity) with Elliott?  It's definitely a deviation in tactic from the Gini-Hendo-Fab 2020 type midfield.

[Redric1970]

having a bunch of injury prone players getting injured isn’t misfortune

if you can’t find the strength to just say they fucked up that’s up to you of
course but most of the forum don’t need to create a fake narrative to cover up for it

Exactly there is no bad luck in keita and ox being injured they are always injured so it’s definitely no surprise, the same as there shouldn’t be a surprise that hendo 33, Thiago 31 and Fabinho nearly 30 can’t run as much as they used to, and the backup plans to that are Jones who let’s be honest aswell as suffering frequent injuries has done nothing to prove he’s of the quality of being first choice, two promising teenagers and a 37yr old it’s not misfortune.

[Schmidt]

If Klopp's template is dependent on hard running, athletic midfielders, then why has he been so intent on playing Elliott as an 8?  The complete opposite of what you would expect in there.

Both of his stints there have come when players are either out of action entirely or working their way back to fitness. I'll agree it's weird though, he's such a poor fit for what we've had before and nothing has really changed with how we play to accommodate him.

[Eeyore]

If Klopp's template is dependent on hard running, athletic midfielders, then why has he been so intent on playing Elliott as an 8?  The complete opposite of what you would expect in there.

Elliott had no problem playing as an 8 last season when we had more energetic players around him. This season he has only really started when we had no other options.

For me he hasn't got back to the physical level he was at before his injury.

[tubby]

Maybe Klopp sees the limitations of the athleticism of this group of midfielders and is trying an alternative approach (more around creativity) with Elliott?  It's definitely a deviation in tactic from the Gini-Hendo-Fab 2020 type midfield.

Yeah this is what my thinking is too, we've been trying to evolve the tactics to deal with teams that sit in against us.

[tubby]

Elliott had no problem playing as an 8 last season when we had more energetic players around him. This season he has only really started when we had no other options.

For me he hasn't got back to the physical level he was at before his injury.

But he's not quick, he's not strong, he doesn't eat up the ground.  He's just not the typical Klopp midfielder, wasn't before his injury either.

[So… Howard Philips]

Elliott had no problem playing as an 8 last season when we had more energetic players around him. This season he has only really started when we had no other options.

For me he hasn't got back to the physical level he was at before his injury.

I think that is part of the problem for Elliott but lack of energy around him certainly won’t help.

Who knows - Jones or Chamberlain could provide some relief.

Bit tongue in cheek but plenty of players have reinvented themselves so I live in hope.

[Eeyore]

But he's not quick, he's not strong, he doesn't eat up the ground.  He's just not the typical Klopp midfielder, wasn't before his injury either.

Is he any slower or weaker than Coutinho or Lallana though.

[Knight]

Klopp has evolved our midfield since the Henderson, Milner, Gini days. First Fab who was more press resistant than Henderson and very much wanted to sit deep. Then Thiago instead of Gini, who offered tactical discipline and defensive excellence but also WAY more progressive passing (which wouldn’t be hard compared to Gini but Thiago is world class at it). Then we used Elliot last season before his injury and early this season in an 8 position that felt more attacking than we’d previously lined up with. The issue is Klopp’s attempts to evolve our midfield have run aground on injury prone players like Thiago, ageing and unfortunate situations like Elliot’s ankle break last season.

[Sheer Magnetism]

If Klopp's template is dependent on hard running, athletic midfielders, then why has he been so intent on playing Elliott as an 8?  The complete opposite of what you would expect in there.

People make too much of there being a 'Klopp template'. He played Kagawa at number 10 while winning things at Dortmund, though he was positioned ahead of both a hard running defensive midfielder and a controller in Gundogan.

[Eeyore]

People make too much of there being a 'Klopp template'. He played Kagawa at number 10 while winning things at Dortmund, though he was positioned ahead of both a hard running defensive midfielder and a controller in Gundogan.

Yeh good post. For me the flat three in midfield was to allow both full backs to push on at the same time.

[El Lobo]

I find that bit surrounding the midfield the harder bit to believe. If we were going to spend that much on a CM surely we'd have alternatives? There was no option to wait like the VVD situation...when we wanted an attacker we "ended up" with Mo in the past too, which worked out well! Doesn't sit quite right.

Well yeah you'd think, but it may be that the alternatives we didn't think were quite good enough. We've waited before. We did it with Virg, we did it with Keita, we did it with Konate. We didnt have to wait for Virg...when you say we 'didnt have the option' I'm not sure what you mean. We had four senior CBs at that point, we had 7 senior CMs this summer.

There's every chance we looked at the midfield in the summer and saw Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago, Keita, Ox, Milner, Jones, Elliott and Carvalho and thought it was enough. Keita didn't miss many games through injury last season, I dont actually think Ox missed any. Dont get me wrong, we should have signed someone(just to be clear  ). But this set-up has done it before, and frankly succeeded with it. Even 20/21. People will forever make the argument that we struggled because we 'didnt replace Lovren'. We didn't, we struggled because VVD, Gomez, Matip and Thiago all got long term injuries at the same time. A 4th choice CB at that point would have made little different (again, as much as we should have had one), but we muddled through with a combination of Kabak, Phillips and Williams and finished 3rd. If we're going further, we made do with no real back-up for the front three and won the CL/PL.

And yeah I agree, we do probably 'gamble' on players fitness (and form).

[tubby]

Is he any slower or weaker than Coutinho or Lallana though.

Certainly not slower than Lallana, but he made up for it with his relentless pressing for 90 minutes.

If we were to buy a new midfielder in the January window, who was the size of Elliott and had the same lack of athleticism, I don't think many of us would think that was a good move.

[tubby]

People make too much of there being a 'Klopp template'. He played Kagawa at number 10 while winning things at Dortmund, though he was positioned ahead of both a hard running defensive midfielder and a controller in Gundogan.

That's the right midfield blend for me, but only if the creative/instinctive player (Kagawa/Elliott) is playing as a 10 and not an 8.

[Eeyore]

Certainly not slower than Lallana, but he made up for it with his relentless pressing for 90 minutes.

If we were to buy a new midfielder in the January window, who was the size of Elliott and had the same lack of athleticism, I don't think many of us would think that was a good move.

I agree but there were plenty of posters who told us to wait and see with Melo who is slower than Elliott.

It is all about balance for me. We need at least one physical monster in midfield probably two but if Elliott or Carvalho play then there is far less need for both fullbacks to push on

[El Lobo]

Is he any slower or weaker than Coutinho or Lallana though.

Coutinho barely played in midfield for us, and when he did you forgave his shortcomings because he was elite in an attacking sense. I'm sure the same would be true of Harvey but its hard to see him getting the opportunity unless other aspects of his game improve. Otherwise he'll just end up an attacker, which is hardly the end of the world, or a number 10.

[tubby]

I agree but there were plenty of posters who told us to wait and see with Melo who is slower than Elliott.

It is all about balance for me. We need at least one physical monster in midfield probably two but if Elliott or Carvalho play then there is far less need for both fullbacks to push on

It depends on the tactics, doesn't it?  I really do think we were trying to move away from the flat three in midfield with fullbacks bombing on, which is why Elliott (and to a lesser extent, Thiago) got in the team.

Feels like we're kind of caught halfway between the two at the moment, the team we were, and the team we want to become.

[didi shamone]

Amazing how the seven year thing kicked in the second last season ended. Like some great cosmic egg timer just funnelled it's last few grains of sand at that precise moment.

Or it's just a random similarity that provides a simplistic solution to a complex issue.

Nah, definitely the egg timer for me.

[Redric1970]

I agree but there were plenty of posters who told us to wait and see with Melo who is slower than Elliott.

It is all about balance for me. We need at least one physical monster in midfield probably two but if Elliott or Carvalho play then there is far less need for both fullbacks to push on

I think with the fact our two full backs are so attacking we need two midfield monsters.

[Knight]

Coutinho barely played in midfield for us, and when he did you forgave his shortcomings because he was elite in an attacking sense. I'm sure the same would be true of Harvey but its hard to see him getting the opportunity unless other aspects of his game improve. Otherwise he'll just end up an attacker, which is hardly the end of the world, or a number 10.

Number 10 is an endangered species at the minute and he’s not a wide forward. Too slow. So he kinda needs to learn to play as an 8 if he’s going to have a career at the top level*

*  our level that is. He’ll be a brilliant player in the PL I’m sure. But if he can’t cut it at 8 here we’ll need to sell him I suspect.

[El Lobo]

Number 10 is an endangered species at the minute and he’s not a wide forward. Too slow. So he kinda needs to learn to play as an 8 if he’s going to have a career at the top level*

*  our level that is. He’ll be a brilliant player in the PL I’m sure. But if he can’t cut it at 8 here we’ll need to sell him I suspect.

No reason for him not to. Foden has done it, and I can't imagine he was much quicker than Harvey at the same age (if at all).

[Schmidt]

Elliot isn't too slow, he just spends far too much of every game too high up the pitch, regardless of the situation we're in. There's a weird disparity between his attitude which seems to be great and the way he plays the role which is pretty braindead, and I can't really fathom it.

[stjohns]

Giving the players such an intense pre season after the tremendous effort and eventually, disappointment of last season has proved to be a mistake. What did we have a couple of weeks into the prem season, 8/9 injuries? Only a couple actually picked up in matches. Bonkers.

[El Lobo]

Giving the players such an intense pre season after the tremendous effort and eventually, disappointment of last season has proved to be a mistake. What did we have a couple of weeks into the prem season, 8/9 injuries? Only a couple actually picked up in matches. Bonkers.

Do we know if it was an intense pre-season, and not the other way round?

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

If they sacked Klopp to try and scapegoat him, I'm not sure they'd be around for the next Liverpool manager 

To be fair, you'd be the first to defend their decision and try to rationalize it.

[stjohns]

Do we know if it was an intense pre-season, and not the other way round?

Either way, 6/7 of those injuries appear to have happened pre season.

[El Lobo]

To be fair, you'd be the first to defend their decision and try to rationalize it.

Probably Craig first and then keyop, but I'd do my best to be top three.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I'd just be interested to know how we have got to this point and the internal discussions that have been had along the way.

It's not as simple as FSG being tight, it's too simplistic, but clearly as Klopp has said, there seems to be a bit of frustration with their conservatism.
Are Klopp and the recruitment team cuplable? Was it a case of Tchouameni or no one? If so, I'd be interested in understanding that one a bit more about why they think that way.
Are the players just mentally and physically shattered after last year especially? Sure they put a brave face on with the parade, but last season may have had an effect. Was that mental tiredness compounded by promised new blood not arriving?
Have injuries picked up during the post season internationals and pre/early season disrupted us? Which when combined with blooding new players has disrupted us?

Maybe it's all of that. What I do know though, is that it's not as simple as many people are making out.

It could just be a load of shitty luck that's all happened at once.

[Historical Fool]

The same way the owners invested in the Anfield Road end and the new training ground I guess.

Every business in the world makes investments.

So a loan then?

[Adamlfc2307]

I'd just be interested to know how we have got to this point and the internal discussions that have been had along the way.

It's not as simple as FSG being tight, it's too simplistic, but clearly as Klopp has said, there seems to be a bit of frustration with their conservatism.
Are Klopp and the recruitment team cuplable? Was it a case of Tchouameni or no one? If so, I'd be interested in understanding that one a bit more about why they think that way.
Are the players just mentally and physically shattered after last year especially? Sure they put a brave face on with the parade, but last season may have had an effect. Was that mental tiredness compounded by promised new blood not arriving?
Have injuries picked up during the post season internationals and pre/early season disrupted us? Which when combined with blooding new players has disrupted us?

Maybe it's all of that. What I do know though, is that it's not as simple as many people are making out.

It could just be a load of shitty luck that's all happened at once.

I was reading a piece on FSG and how the Red Sox fans view them in 2022 and it’s scary how similar their ownership has worked out and how the fans currently feel to ourselves. When they first took over they were seen as saviours who steadied the ship and success soon followed, but over the last few years the Red Sox fans have noticed an increasing absence from the owners and more reluctance to invest in the team. It seems frustration has been growing there and they are now being questioned by more and more fans about whether they are the right owners because they don’t seem interested.

[Dave McCoy]

Ah, I see Roy's comments were taken to heart. Just more pages talking about exactly the thing he said wasn't really needed here.

[Asam]

Ah, I see Roy's comments were taken to heart. Just more pages talking about exactly the thing he said wasn't really needed here.

Are you Roy’s official spokesman?