Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game  (Read 19797 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2017, 08:52:01 PM »
Thanks Pop. It must be a fucking nightmare playing against a team literally kicking for touch. In fairness to the fab 4 and the other forward players those conditions were unbelievably cold, windy and horrible

We're playing Saracens in January  ;D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,300
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2017, 10:37:34 AM »
Forward passes as a % of total passes:

Lovren - 82%
Klavan - 77%
Matip - 76%


Also, for the midfield:



Can not coming out of that favourably, except for assists. Marginally more back passes per 90 than our other mids, too. Milner is "da man" though!

Cheers POP. I would say a defender passing % going forward would be highish as that would be their only option most of the time unless going back to the goalie. Maybe its my fuzzy memory but none of our lads would be an Agger nevermind Hansen in their dreams and when we have games with 80% possession there may be need for another creative force in midfield / another striker on the pitch. We once had a stat for assists to an assist which Alonso seem to be a king of...be curious to see how many of our midfielders / defenders have an assist's assist.

We are going to have games where we will struggle as even the likes of City / Barca at their best had hundreds of passes in a game but struggled to break down teams. We are hardly a finished item as several positions could be improved on so as long as we contend for a Top 4 while in 3rd / 4th gear then we cant be complaining too much. Ideally the next season or two could really shape up to be something special.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Offline Robinred

  • Wanted for burglary.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,977
  • Red since '64
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2017, 11:15:15 AM »
Just want to mention a feature of both recent home draws that seems not to have featured in the discussion. Everton were poor, Baggies were actually surprisingly good. But both were beneficiaries of “new manager effect”.

I don’t need to elaborate - we all know and recognise it. We should have beaten, on all recent “form”, both of these teams at home. But by the peculiar way these things evolve at the years’ end - the traditional sack race months - we got two for the price of one.

Clutching at straws, some will say. Not really, just pointing out another factor.
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,180
  • The first five yards........
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2017, 11:25:08 AM »
You've definitely identified a problem there PoP. But I do wonder how well your post will hold up by the end of the season. On the back of two infuriating home draws it's tempting maybe to exaggerate our creative problems a little bit?  The Everton result was the worst but also one that is hard to extrapolate from. We really ought to have been 2 up at half time. And then Fat Sam would have been left with a choice. Keep the defeat respectable or come out and attack us and suffer the consequences. As it was Mane was conquered by selfishness and the ref scored for Everton to level the match.

I wonder if you might say more about this sentence too?


A team with 65% or more, though, really needs a lot of creativity on the ball in the attack, otherwise the possession can (and often does) become sterile – defence to midfield, back to defence, back to midfield, switch left, switch right, teasing ball into the attack, safe pass back out into midfield, back to defence, back to the keeper, and start all over again.

The first time I read it I thought "this is madness". Liverpool are creative "on the ball in the attack". Not all our - considerable number - of goals this season have been the result of counter-attacks or high-pressing. The 'Fab Four' are not just about pace, despite pundits finding this a convenient short hand to explain our fecundity in front of goal. There's trickery and brilliant movement off the ball too.

But then again, what you say about the often cumbersome pace of our recycling I find unarguable. My own favourite solution, ever since Boro and Everton away last season, is for Lallana to become our number 6. In those two games he wasn't slated to play there but increasingly dropped back into deep midfield to collect the ball off the centre backs in order to get some pace into our play. It reminded me a little of Steven Gerrard doing the same in the FA Cup Final v Chelsea. On all three occasions, of course, Henderson was the culprit - unable to take a risk, unable to spot a pass quickly, unable to move with the ball into provoking positions. Not that the problem ends with Henderson. Matip aside, we don't seem to have centre backs who can create. And it was clear from the West Brom game - and others - that Can isn't the answer either.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline na fir dearg

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
  • "I'm de gaffur..."
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2017, 12:26:02 PM »
Not sure there is anything new here? We've struggled against these sorts of teams for a long time now - think Klopp will wait till he gets new players in rather than change his philosophy

Offline Adeemo

  • surreally arsed
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,756
  • A.W.E.S.O.M.-O
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2017, 01:35:20 PM »


[/url

Bloody hell my eyes aren't deceiving me, Wijnaldum is unable to pass the ball forward to anywhere near the required level. He even struggled when playing in the back 3! His game seems to have gone backwards this season, or rather sideways, he's a shadow of the player he was last season.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 01:36:57 PM by Adeemo »
"I love the Pope, I love seeing him in his Pope-Mobile, his three feet of bullet proof plexi-glass. That's faith in action folks! You know he's got God on his side"

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2017, 01:46:47 PM »
You've definitely identified a problem there PoP. But I do wonder how well your post will hold up by the end of the season. On the back of two infuriating home draws it's tempting maybe to exaggerate our creative problems a little bit?  The Everton result was the worst but also one that is hard to extrapolate from. We really ought to have been 2 up at half time. And then Fat Sam would have been left with a choice. Keep the defeat respectable or come out and attack us and suffer the consequences. As it was Mane was conquered by selfishness and the ref scored for Everton to level the match.

I wonder if you might say more about this sentence too?

The first time I read it I thought "this is madness". Liverpool are creative "on the ball in the attack". Not all our - considerable number - of goals this season have been the result of counter-attacks or high-pressing. The 'Fab Four' are not just about pace, despite pundits finding this a convenient short hand to explain our fecundity in front of goal. There's trickery and brilliant movement off the ball too.

But then again, what you say about the often cumbersome pace of our recycling I find unarguable. My own favourite solution, ever since Boro and Everton away last season, is for Lallana to become our number 6. In those two games he wasn't slated to play there but increasingly dropped back into deep midfield to collect the ball off the centre backs in order to get some pace into our play. It reminded me a little of Steven Gerrard doing the same in the FA Cup Final v Chelsea. On all three occasions, of course, Henderson was the culprit - unable to take a risk, unable to spot a pass quickly, unable to move with the ball into provoking positions. Not that the problem ends with Henderson. Matip aside, we don't seem to have centre backs who can create. And it was clear from the West Brom game - and others - that Can isn't the answer either.

Indeed. However, we've scored only 6 more goals from open play as we have from counter-attacks, set-pieces, and penalties. We've scored the most counter-attack goals in the league, so it does play a big part for us. But even in my own point, I think it's only fair to say that "creativity", like the phrase "balance in defence", is not easily defined across the board, by players, coaches, pundits, and fans alike. So for me, in regards to what I was talking about, "creativity" means either (and mostly) 1v1 skill that allows the attacker to beat multiple defenders, either going to goal or to escape double and triple marking; or one-touch creative passes that go against the pattern of play - such as the types of passes DeBruyne regularly makes to thread the ball to Jesus, Sterling or Aguero. Our players can dribble, but I can only think of Lallana who can do it regularly, and Coutinho and Can who can do it in spurts. In 2013/14, we had Suarez (a master at it), Coutinho, Sterling and Sturridge who could do it on the dribble, and Gerrard with the one-touch passes-against-the-grain. We had multiple ways of breaking teams down. When we lost Suarez to transfer, Sturridge to injury, Sterling to inconsistency and Lallana to "bedding in", and Gerrard to age, we lost everything that helps teams to win against the bus-parkers. Lallana developed well under Klopp, Coutinho is still sporadic, Can turns it on in fits and starts; but Salah and Mane are capable of doing good stuff, but again, it's not consistent. They are players who function better with space in front of them, and bus-parkers deny them that space. Gini isn't the answer, Henderson isn't, most of the time Can isn't, and Milner isn't, although he is also occasionally capable of some good stuff.

But most of our "team" creativity comes from well-rehearsed patterns of movement and passing. When you rehearse well, you can add speed, and speed is hard to stop in football, if you go toe-to-toe. But if you're happy keeping a good shape around the box, you can nullify most speedy attacks. That's when you need "telephone box" players - players who can work their way out of very small areas and still retain the ball. This allows attacking teams to draw defenders into those players, creating gaps elsewhere, into which the "telephone box" player can release a ball, and suddenly the defensive team are outnumbered at the back. All defences want a few things to be the case - make play predictable, compactness, confront the ball, keep a good offside line, and stay disciplined in your shape. "Telephone Box" players can destroy a team's shape by drawing defenders and midfielders into them, and creating space elsewhere. If Coutinho is not on form,  and Lallana is injured, and Firmino is busy working the channels, then we don't really have that player anywhere else, and it becomes easier to shut us down and make play predictable - effectively by shutting down Coutinho. If we had a few more creative dribblers on the team, we might be better equipped to deal with these defensive blocks who allow us to have all the possession, I think.


Quote
But I do wonder how well your post will hold up by the end of the season. On the back of two infuriating home draws it's tempting maybe to exaggerate our creative problems a little bit?

It's not an exaggeration. Since Klopp came in, we've played 32 league games where we had 65% possession or higher. We've only won 12 of them.

Edit - looked at them again, and we've only lost 6. So that means we are more likely to draw a game that we have the overwhelming majority of possession than we are to win it. If we're going to dominate the ball, we need to change our transfer policy a bit, and bring in more individually creative attackers. Or Klopp will have to allow teams to build out a little bit before applying the press. Either way, if we persist as we have for the past 2.5 years, we might see ourselves more frustrated than not in these games.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 01:58:35 PM by PhaseOfPlay »
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Tony18:5

  • Begets John 3:16
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,497
  • Born and Bred
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2017, 01:49:07 PM »
Bloody hell my eyes aren't deceiving me, Wijnaldum is unable to pass the ball forward to anywhere near the required level. He even struggled when playing in the back 3! His game seems to have gone backwards this season, or rather sideways, he's a shadow of the player he was last season.

Im no statto and I'm not sure what site these stats are from but I've just looked on the official site

Have a look at his defensive stats too they are equally if not more shocking he's won 4 tackles all season - surely that can't be right ?
A Great man once said...
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass.
It is terribly simple."

http://twitter.com/Tony18_5

Offline Triad

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2017, 02:00:44 PM »
I'm gonna take the opposite side to what a lot of posters are saying.I like it when Coutinho is in the middle.The difference between our performances in the 1st and 2nd half were night and day.Just simply watch the highlights,and you will see all our attacks starting with a forward Coutinho pass.Compared to the 1st half where I can only remember 1 good pass out of Robertson,Klavan,Lovren and it was actually a left footed Lovren chip.

Offline a treeless whopper

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,056
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2017, 02:50:50 PM »
I'm gonna take the opposite side to what a lot of posters are saying.I like it when Coutinho is in the middle.The difference between our performances in the 1st and 2nd half were night and day.Just simply watch the highlights,and you will see all our attacks starting with a forward Coutinho pass.Compared to the 1st half where I can only remember 1 good pass out of Robertson,Klavan,Lovren and it was actually a left footed Lovren chip.

What exactly did Coutinho do that made us play better? If anything it was the shape collectively that improved us. Coutinho hogged the ball in the centre and was ineffective in there. Just because Can and Wijnaldum played shit doesnt mean Coutinho is at his best in that position.

In fact he has still had better performances off the left than the middle.

Offline Wilmo

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 773
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2017, 02:57:58 PM »
Wonderful analysis here, as always.

One thing I will say is that these games are where I feel Hendo's role can really shine. He's become very good at acting as a fulcrum to build the play incrementally up the pitch with 'safe' passes, until he finds himself as an anchor inside their third of the pitch. We then play probing passes, possession football until we wear them down. We've come up against teams like this this season, and beaten them quite well - but that was with Henderson fulfilling this role. I'm not sure Can is able to play like this - it's an utterly thankless job which ends up making every other player around you seem dynamic and yourself static and overly-conservative. The stats above are telling - I wonder how many 'hockey' assists Hendo has in comparison to Can?
'History has always shown that when we stay together we can sort out problems. When we split then we start fighting. There was not one time in history where division creates success.' - Klopp

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2017, 03:04:57 PM »
Wonderful analysis here, as always.

One thing I will say is that these games are where I feel Hendo's role can really shine. He's become very good at acting as a fulcrum to build the play incrementally up the pitch with 'safe' passes, until he finds himself as an anchor inside their third of the pitch. We then play probing passes, possession football until we wear them down. We've come up against teams like this this season, and beaten them quite well - but that was with Henderson fulfilling this role. I'm not sure Can is able to play like this - it's an utterly thankless job which ends up making every other player around you seem dynamic and yourself static and overly-conservative. The stats above are telling - I wonder how many 'hockey' assists Hendo has in comparison to Can?

Interesting. It might be worth going back over these types of games to see which ones Henderson played and which ones he didn't.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Upinsmoke

  • Is a grump, get used to it.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,683
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2017, 05:47:41 PM »
Great OP. Brilliantly broken down.


Offline Triad

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2017, 06:26:47 PM »
What exactly did Coutinho do that made us play better? If anything it was the shape collectively that improved us. Coutinho hogged the ball in the centre and was ineffective in there. Just because Can and Wijnaldum played shit doesnt mean Coutinho is at his best in that position.

In fact he has still had better performances off the left than the middle.

He allowed Mane,Salah and our fullbacks see more of the ball in the advanced positions.How do you think an attacking player droppin deeper helps get the forwards the ball in advanced position,if it is only down to shape.I'm not saying that's his best position,all I'm saying is that even as a deeper CM,he still outshines the attacking output of Can,Wij,Henderson.

Offline nico 8

  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,394
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2017, 08:45:27 PM »
Interesting take.

But what is the big difference in the profile of players b/w city and liverpool.

There is nothing Sterling and Sane can do that Salah and Mane cannot.  Coutinho can do what KDB does, and with Keita coming in we're adding more players of that ilk.

Perhaps an out and out forward instead of Firmino?

What are the critical difference b/w city and liverpool in terms of personnel apart from depth??

I think a big difference are the wingers of each side. We play with inverted wingers who cut in relying on overlapping fullbacks to run into the space created for them. Man City stretch the back line and create one on one situations where Sane and Sterling beat their man on their natural side and either have a square cross or a cut back.
Maybe we need to switch Mane and Salah during the game from time to time.

Offline a treeless whopper

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,056
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2017, 08:47:37 PM »
Interesting take.

But what is the big difference in the profile of players b/w city and liverpool.

There is nothing Sterling and Sane can do that Salah and Mane cannot.  Coutinho can do what KDB does, and with Keita coming in we're adding more players of that ilk.

Perhaps an out and out forward instead of Firmino?

What are the critical difference b/w city and liverpool in terms of personnel apart from depth??

They have full belief in what they are doing and what their manager wants them to do. Ours dont. We are covered in doubt.

I also think we have too many players used to losing.

Offline nico 8

  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,394
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2017, 08:50:44 PM »
Wonderful analysis here, as always.

One thing I will say is that these games are where I feel Hendo's role can really shine. He's become very good at acting as a fulcrum to build the play incrementally up the pitch with 'safe' passes, until he finds himself as an anchor inside their third of the pitch. We then play probing passes, possession football until we wear them down. We've come up against teams like this this season, and beaten them quite well - but that was with Henderson fulfilling this role. I'm not sure Can is able to play like this - it's an utterly thankless job which ends up making every other player around you seem dynamic and yourself static and overly-conservative. The stats above are telling - I wonder how many 'hockey' assists Hendo has in comparison to Can?

Busquets does a wonderful job for the team but is appreciated and his role is totally understood and appreciated.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2017, 09:43:10 PM »
I think a big difference are the wingers of each side. We play with inverted wingers who cut in relying on overlapping fullbacks to run into the space created for them. Man City stretch the back line and create one on one situations where Sane and Sterling beat their man on their natural side and either have a square cross or a cut back.
Maybe we need to switch Mane and Salah during the game from time to time.

This is a good point. There, generally, four principles of attack (other countries add a few more, or word them differently), and most coaches favour one or two over the others. The principles are:

Penetration
Depth
Width
Mobility

To those, you could add Creativity and Surprise (Counter-attack). But if we just look at the four main ones, in relation to managers, we can see where each one stands:

Klopp - Penetration
Rodgers - Mobility
Conte - Depth
Mourinho - Depth
Pochettino - Depth

In other words, Klopp wants us to 1v1 on defenders as quickly as possible, and then look for 2v1 overloads to get past defenders into space near the goal. Rodgers wants his teams to move constantly, checking forward and back, cutting in and dragging wide, and rotating positions. Conte, Mourinho and Pochettino want the ball delivered up front early, usually from a defensive base.

Guardiola, though, is from the Ajax/Van Gaal school of thinking. He is obsessed with width, to the point that he will break convention by keeping his far side attacker on the touchline rather than pinching in to maintain compactness in case of a breakdown. This means that Guradiola's teams can stretch the play a lot more effectively, which in turn creates central space for the creative midfielders. The presence of a centre forward isn't so necessary in Pep's plan, as long as someone looks to break the offside line if the chance is there. Otherwise, they build the ball progressively forward, from side to side, in the Dutch way, which pushes the opposition offside line into the penalty area, which makes it all but redundant. So a major difference between us and a Guardiola team is the extreme width with which his teams play. And his width comes from the wingers AND the fullbacks, but rarely both at the same time. So, in a 4-3-3, if the left back is the wide player, the left winger will tuck in a little, but the RIGHT winger will stay wide, while the Right Back will pinch in a bit. It's all about positional play for Guardiola, and the positional play is based on width.

For Klopp, it's all about penetration - press, win the ball, attack from the point of transition and try to catch them off guard. You don't need full-field width for that, so - as has been happening - you can designate the winger on one side to be the wide player there, and the fullback on the opposite side to be the wide player there; in our case, that's Salah for the right side, and Moreno for the left, with Mane moving in and out, and Gomez tucking in. The difference is, that doesn't really change (except for an overlapping opportunity, which is standard for all formations and systems of play). So between the sides of the field, there can be variety, but the outsides are much the same. This is almost the opposite of a Guardiola team, where the width starts with the wingers, but changes as the game goes on, while the middle will stay relatively static - a holding mid, and two mobile centre mids who stay in the inside channels for the most part.

It won't change under Klopp, much like it won't change under any manager - they tend not to stray from their favoured principles of play. The only way to improve their game is to change the "moveable" parts in the system. For Pep, that will always be wingers and fullbacks. For Klopp, the central midfield, I think
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,907
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2017, 11:23:11 PM »
Great post POP, and as always the level of education (for myself) in your posts are much appreciated.
Welcome back. :wave

We've seen this from a number of games under Klopp. Any time we've had 65% or more in a game, we've failed to win an average of 65% of the time (the matching number is purely coincidental!). So in those games, we've absolutely dominated the ball, and have failed to win  2 out of every 3 games. This makes sense – we're a team trained and designed (for a large part) to press, press, press, and attack, rinse and repeat. But we can't press if we have the ball. And if we have the ball 2/3's of the game, it limits our counter-pressing opportunities, which means that any team who understand this, will know they only have to keep their discipline and shape, not get too unhappy with seeing little of the ball, and make sure any mistakes they make in possession are made in the Liverpool half of the pitch, without committing numbers forward.

For a team to have the ball for 65% or more of the game (and we've gone as high as 80% - the Burnley game last year that we lost 2-0), they should be looking at a handy win. But teams who seek out that kind of high possession (a Rodgers team, for example), they would want to have a high number of play-making, creative players in the attack, and they would want to be focusing their physical tactics on positioning with the ball.

If I can play a slight devil's advocate here.

We fail to win 2 out of ever 3 games where we have 65% of possession, yet that doesn't neccessarily mean that we play worse when we have more possession?
It may look like it, but looking at it another way, one could say that the longer that the opposition maintain a draw score or better (for them), the more likely they are to concede possession to us, and the vice versa if they're losing. It's not so much that we can't score when teams give us the ball, we're at the top end of the league when it comes to goals scored, it's that when we tend not to win more often than not when the opposition hasn't needed to attack us and have spent the game defending a 0-0 goal for the full 90 minutes. Every team bar the top 6-7 teams start off matches against us conceding possession to us and trying to play off dead ball situations and/or mistakes that crop up.

We are capable of breaking down teams that come to defend, but it seems when we score against a team that sets up to defend we also tend to dominate the game in the final scoreline. Additionally, the opposition will try attack more which lowers our possession, but they initially started off playing defensive and only started to attack after we broke them down and scored. I don't think we're a gegenpressing team first, after all we only tend to really see the virtues of it against 6 or so teams in the league. It's just easier to sum up Klopp's attacking vision as gegenpressing, but how many of our goals were directly attributed to that, and how many were some alternate use of triangles, attacking the empty space-pulling defenders away from positions via feints and dummy movements. I'm not versed in football terminology, but surely we play more attacking "X" system than just gegenpressing. Else, how can we explain our position of 3rd in goals scored?

I don't think the issue is the failure of gegenpressing, or the lack of an alternate attacking system to tackle deep laying teams. I think we're seeing Klopp's attacking vision slightly skewed (or tainted) because he's still lacking the perfect players that fit into his system. The failure is more the quality of the chefs cooking the broth rather than the recipe of the broth itself. If we had Keita in our last two games, I'm sure we'd be walking away with 6 points rather than two.

A year ago, how many of us were deriding Pep's "naive" attacking philosophy as lacking the ability to break down the old fashioned English "10 players in the box" defensive model, and having clear flaws in his defense. A year later, "poof", they're breaking records and dominating the league. Surely a combination of very talented players getting comfortable with his philosophy and the influx of new players that added dephs and pushed out players from the rotation that weren't perfect for his model.

Klopp does needs time, I'm convinced his vision, gegenpressing et al, is fine just as it is.
The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2017, 12:27:46 AM »
Great post POP, and as always the level of education (for myself) in your posts are much appreciated.
Welcome back. :wave

If I can play a slight devil's advocate here.

We fail to win 2 out of ever 3 games where we have 65% of possession, yet that doesn't necessarily mean that we play worse when we have more possession?

I don't know if I (at least) said we played worse, but that we seem to be less effective when we have the ball. Our low scores bear that out. We're not failing to win BECAUSE we have so much possession, but because we don't have the players to do something with the huge amount of possession we have. Or rather, we don't have enough of them.

Quote
It may look like it, but looking at it another way, one could say that the longer that the opposition maintain a draw score or better (for them), the more likely they are to concede possession to us, and the vice versa if they're losing. It's not so much that we can't score when teams give us the ball, we're at the top end of the league when it comes to goals scored, it's that when we tend not to win more often than not when the opposition hasn't needed to attack us and have spent the game defending a 0-0 goal for the full 90 minutes. Every team bar the top 6-7 teams start off matches against us conceding possession to us and trying to play off dead ball situations and/or mistakes that crop up.

Absolutely. But the onus is then on us to do something with that possession, and it looks like - from the shots on target numbers - that our possession doesn't translate into increased shots on target (we generally maintain our average of 5-6 shots on target per game, IIRC). The only game we actually increased our shots on target in relation to our increased possession, is the Crystal Palace game, where we had 13 shots on target, but only scored one goal  (Hennessey had a great game that day for Palace).

Quote
We are capable of breaking down teams that come to defend, but it seems when we score against a team that sets up to defend we also tend to dominate the game in the final scoreline.

I'm not sure the numbers show that. The games we failed to win in the list of high-possession games, are:

Bournemouth   x1
Burnley      x2
Everton      x1
Hull City           x1
Leicester           x1
Man Utd      x1
Newcastle   x2
Southampton   x2
Sunderland   x2
Swansea      x1
Watford      x1
West Brom   x3
West Ham   x2

I think it's fair to say that the majority of these teams are defensive teams first and foremost, and they are also teams that we haven't dominated. Our biggest scorelines under Klopp have come against Aston Villa (under Remi Garde), City under Pellegrini, Stoke (who try to play football under Hughes), Hull and Watford (exceptions to the rule), Brighton, Spurs, West Ham (under Bilic) and Arsenal.


Quote
Additionally, the opposition will try attack more which lowers our possession, but they initially started off playing defensive and only started to attack after we broke them down and scored. I don't think we're a gegenpressing team first, after all we only tend to really see the virtues of it against 6 or so teams in the league. It's just easier to sum up Klopp's attacking vision as gegenpressing, but how many of our goals were directly attributed to that, and how many were some alternate use of triangles, attacking the empty space-pulling defenders away from positions via feints and dummy movements. I'm not versed in football terminology, but surely we play more attacking "X" system than just gegenpressing. Else, how can we explain our position of 3rd in goals scored?

Gegenpressing only happens in the defensive phase, though. It CAN only happen in the defensive phase, because "pressing" isn't an attacking principle. So yes, we form triangles and attacking empty space, but we can only do that because we've pressed the opposition on their attacking transition, won the ball back early, and attacked them in their unbalanced shape that all teams have in between winning and losing the ball. My point is that it looks like when the opposition don'e commit numbers forward, keep a disciplined shape, and give us the ball, then we don't have the opportunity to gegenpress, because WE have the ball. And in those instances, we need a bit more creativity to break down the defensive block, and currently we are short of a quantity of players able to do that. On our position of 3rd in goals scored - most goals are scored in moves of 3 passes or less, so gegenpressing will always increase goals scored in league football (international footballs seems to be different). That is why you look at older pressing teams like Wimbledon, Watford under Taylor, Middlesborough under Charlton, and Cambridge under Beck, and you can see high goals scored totals per season for some seasons. But that was also back in the day when every team wanted to get the ball forward down the wings, or play through the midfield and attack at every opportunity. It wasn't until the 2000s that the continental defence and passing game became more widespread among even lower division sides, so the pressing element became less effective (also, the loss of the back pass meant that teams could no longer use the keeper to rest - because pressing is very physically intensive).

Quote
I don't think the issue is the failure of gegenpressing, or the lack of an alternate attacking system to tackle deep laying teams. I think we're seeing Klopp's attacking vision slightly skewed (or tainted) because he's still lacking the perfect players that fit into his system. The failure is more the quality of the chefs cooking the broth rather than the recipe of the broth itself. If we had Keita in our last two games, I'm sure we'd be walking away with 6 points rather than two.

I'm not saying gegenpressing is failing, though. I'm saying that we're not even able to gegenpress in these games, because we have the ball so much. And you can't gegenpress in possession, it's logically and tactically impossible. So in those games, you need to play a traditional playmaking game, and we don't have enough players capable of doing that.

Quote
A year ago, how many of us were deriding Pep's "naive" attacking philosophy as lacking the ability to break down the old fashioned English "10 players in the box" defensive model, and having clear flaws in his defense. A year later, "poof", they're breaking records and dominating the league. Surely a combination of very talented players getting comfortable with his philosophy and the influx of new players that added dephs and pushed out players from the rotation that weren't perfect for his model.


I wasn't! ;D He needed better fullbacks and a better keeper. He went out and got them. The plan didn't change though. They don't concede too many goals when they're exposed now, because Ederson is a superior goalkeeper (the first position every new manager should sort out when they arrive. It's the most important position on the field). But Pep's model is not the same as Klopp's, even though they both use a pressing defence. Klopp's is built around the actual pressing itself. We know this, because he has said it. Pep's model is based around what happens when his team HAS the ball - positional play, using possession to allow players to get to their assigned zones, and then relying on individual 1v1, and then 2v1, combined with extreme width and switching the point of attack, to expose the opposition's defence, or push them back into their box. Like Rodgers, it's entirely based around the ball. Unlike Rodgers, the first thing Pep does is make sure the basics of their defensive system are learned first. Klopp's system is based around the opposition having the ball, and what his team does as soon as they win the possession of it. But the plan comes up against a roadblock when the other team say "here's the ball - break us down". Klopp's plan doesn't have an answer to that, and we don't have enough players capable of providing the answers, although Keita is a step in the right direction (but only if we don't lose Coutinho).

Quote
Klopp does needs time, I'm convinced his vision, gegenpressing et al, is fine just as it is.

He needs time. But he also needs players. Success isn't 100% on the player side, or 100% on the manager side. It's always 50/50 for both. We have a good manager, with a good plan. But we need good players that suit the plan, in all it's facets, for sure. But until we get them, we're going to run into more problems when teams let us have the ball more than we really "need" it, I reckon.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Geppvindh's

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,622
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2017, 06:10:54 AM »
Great op and nails our problems while we have to force the issue.

This is a problem that most definitely stems from the lack of adventure in midfield and defense. Can, Hendo, Lovren, Klavan are so safe that they are scared to play a ball through the lines if there is an opponent within 5 yards of the receiving player. There have been situations where I've been watching tearing my hairs out as Coutinho shows for the ball with both hands pointed to his feet, with a marker behind him, and Henderson chooses to play it to the full back instead.

With Can, specifically when he receives the ball from the left side of the field (Moreno, Klavan), he never swivels to his right to find Lallana or the RB first time. There's always a heavy touch towards the passer, he crowds himself out, plays it either back to the passer or back to the left center back and then they make the pass out right but now the attacking player is taken out of the game and the ball goes out to Henderson or Gini, who again look for the safer option.

So even though we have players that can easily turn their marker with the ball (Coutinho, Lallana, Mane, Salah are as good as any City player on the turn), they hardly ever receive such passes from midfield or defense. Lucas and Sakho used to do this quite a lot, Sakho especially had a killer vertical pass into the foot that we seem to be sorely missing now. Teams hardly ever press Henderson or Lovren up to as they know they don't play the dangerous so-called second assist pass.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 06:20:23 AM by Gerrvindh »

Offline Pradan

  • Sarcastic besserwisser. Would certainly pick a fight with himself in an empty room.
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,005
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2017, 12:43:27 PM »
This is a good point. There, generally, four principles of attack (other countries add a few more, or word them differently), and most coaches favour one or two over the others. The principles are:

Penetration
Depth
Width
Mobility

To those, you could add Creativity and Surprise (Counter-attack). But if we just look at the four main ones, in relation to managers, we can see where each one stands:

Klopp - Penetration
Rodgers - Mobility
Conte - Depth
Mourinho - Depth
Pochettino - Depth

In other words, Klopp wants us to 1v1 on defenders as quickly as possible, and then look for 2v1 overloads to get past defenders into space near the goal. Rodgers wants his teams to move constantly, checking forward and back, cutting in and dragging wide, and rotating positions. Conte, Mourinho and Pochettino want the ball delivered up front early, usually from a defensive base.

Guardiola, though, is from the Ajax/Van Gaal school of thinking. He is obsessed with width, to the point that he will break convention by keeping his far side attacker on the touchline rather than pinching in to maintain compactness in case of a breakdown. This means that Guradiola's teams can stretch the play a lot more effectively, which in turn creates central space for the creative midfielders. The presence of a centre forward isn't so necessary in Pep's plan, as long as someone looks to break the offside line if the chance is there. Otherwise, they build the ball progressively forward, from side to side, in the Dutch way, which pushes the opposition offside line into the penalty area, which makes it all but redundant. So a major difference between us and a Guardiola team is the extreme width with which his teams play. And his width comes from the wingers AND the fullbacks, but rarely both at the same time. So, in a 4-3-3, if the left back is the wide player, the left winger will tuck in a little, but the RIGHT winger will stay wide, while the Right Back will pinch in a bit. It's all about positional play for Guardiola, and the positional play is based on width.

For Klopp, it's all about penetration - press, win the ball, attack from the point of transition and try to catch them off guard. You don't need full-field width for that, so - as has been happening - you can designate the winger on one side to be the wide player there, and the fullback on the opposite side to be the wide player there; in our case, that's Salah for the right side, and Moreno for the left, with Mane moving in and out, and Gomez tucking in. The difference is, that doesn't really change (except for an overlapping opportunity, which is standard for all formations and systems of play). So between the sides of the field, there can be variety, but the outsides are much the same. This is almost the opposite of a Guardiola team, where the width starts with the wingers, but changes as the game goes on, while the middle will stay relatively static - a holding mid, and two mobile centre mids who stay in the inside channels for the most part.

It won't change under Klopp, much like it won't change under any manager - they tend not to stray from their favoured principles of play. The only way to improve their game is to change the "moveable" parts in the system. For Pep, that will always be wingers and fullbacks. For Klopp, the central midfield, I think

POP your insight is always insightful but how many times do you name drop Rodgers!?

Is he a personal friend of yours?

It seems like you mention his name on a constant basis.

Online On The Eeleventh Day Of Lobo...

  • Chief Suck Up.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,661
  • I'm hot for you Patricia
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2017, 12:49:03 PM »
POP your insight is always insightful but how many times do you name drop Rodgers!?

Is he a personal friend of yours?

It seems like you mention his name on a constant basis.

He was his assistant manager for a decent amount of time, hardly surprising he name drops him a bit ;)
Yeah, for thinking Kane is better than Torres/Bergkamp. Crazy opinion.

Never go full retard

Offline a treeless whopper

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,056
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2017, 12:52:47 PM »
POP your insight is always insightful but how many times do you name drop Rodgers!?

Is he a personal friend of yours?

It seems like you mention his name on a constant basis.

Have you just joined the forum? PoP is Colin Pascoe.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

  • Has VIBES - Very Itchy Ball Epidermis Syndrome; Known to Goats as the Full Mounty and was once called a soft bastard by Sarge; Dwells on all things Llamas; Achterburg's Droppleclanger
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,158
  • Go for Goal Sunshine! - Neil Saunders
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2017, 12:54:33 PM »
Outstanding PoP!
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

Offline Pradan

  • Sarcastic besserwisser. Would certainly pick a fight with himself in an empty room.
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,005
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2017, 01:07:31 PM »
He was his assistant manager for a decent amount of time, hardly surprising he name drops him a bit ;)

He sure is sticking by him, considering he got dumped for Sean O'Driscoll!

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2017, 01:13:56 PM »
He sure is sticking by him, considering he got dumped for Sean O'Driscoll!

Spot on. I'd even ordered a truckload of New Balance shorts and a windbreaker when the f*cker sacked me!

;D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline kasperoff

  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,883
  • JFT 96
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2017, 01:18:14 PM »
Great OP, and I am fully on board with the points raised.

However, dispute all that, we still had the chances to win both games. Particularly against Everton. Sloppyness cost us as much as anything. We've been pretty clinical lately, so the fact we were wasteful surprised me a bit. Mane was particularly guilty in both games and seems well off the pace at the moment.

So it's not a huge issue for me. Yes, we seem more fluid when we have less of the ball, but we do still create. We do need to improve and create with a bit more frequency in these types of games, but I don't think we are far off. As others have said, Lallana could prove key in these situations. I have high hopes for Keita as well. he seems well equipped to deal with bus-parking teams.
I think the same, can't stand him, but if you could have a £1million pound cheque or steve bruces head hollowed out and filled with pound coins which would you have?

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,907
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2017, 03:43:16 PM »
I don't know if I (at least) said we played worse, but that we seem to be less effective when we have the ball. Our low scores bear that out. We're not failing to win BECAUSE we have so much possession, but because we don't have the players to do something with the huge amount of possession we have. Or rather, we don't have enough of them.

I'm not saying gegenpressing is failing, though. I'm saying that we're not even able to gegenpress in these games, because we have the ball so much. And you can't gegenpress in possession, it's logically and tactically impossible. So in those games, you need to play a traditional playmaking game, and we don't have enough players capable of doing that.

He needs time. But he also needs players. Success isn't 100% on the player side, or 100% on the manager side. It's always 50/50 for both. We have a good manager, with a good plan. But we need good players that suit the plan, in all it's facets, for sure. But until we get them, we're going to run into more problems when teams let us have the ball more than we really "need" it, I reckon.

Appreciate the detailed response, now I see what you meant. :wave
It might well be that the traditional playmaking game that Klopp has in mind requires work or some sort of face lift,  but the reality, as you've also stated, is it's hard to judge his style if he's lacking the players capable of executing. And that's my biggest concern, 2 summer windows and the keeper, 3 of the back 4, and 2 of the midfield 3 spots, are still manned by players that were here before he came. And I'm not sure how far up the player list Wijnaldum was when we brought him.

I hope we push on and add some midfielld signings along with Keita. The time comes with the caveat that he manages to bring in the types of players he wants, sooner rather than later. Until then, these sorts of results might be par for the course.
The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.

Online goalrushatgoodison

  • crapinbed
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,600
  • Still waiting for the great leap forward.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2017, 05:28:06 PM »
POP your insight is always insightful but how many times do you name drop Rodgers!?

Is he a personal friend of yours?

It seems like you mention his name on a constant basis.

That's very....well....insightful of you Pradan!
Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2017, 06:31:16 PM »
55% possession, 7 shots on target, 4 goals.

The less we have the ball, the better we are!

In fact, we've won 63% on average of all games where we had less than 60% possession. Gegimpressive!
Better looking than Samie.

Offline McrRed

  • Member of International Hill Climbers Group
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,252
  • In the town where I was born
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2017, 06:42:07 PM »
55% possession, 7 shots on target, 4 goals.

The less we have the ball, the better we are!

In fact, we've won 63% on average of all games where we had less than 60% possession. Gegimpressive!
:D

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

  • Has VIBES - Very Itchy Ball Epidermis Syndrome; Known to Goats as the Full Mounty and was once called a soft bastard by Sarge; Dwells on all things Llamas; Achterburg's Droppleclanger
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,158
  • Go for Goal Sunshine! - Neil Saunders
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2017, 07:16:34 PM »
55% possession, 7 shots on target, 4 goals.

The less we have the ball, the better we are!

In fact, we've won 63% on average of all games where we had less than 60% possession. Gegimpressive!

Is this league only?   And how might this be applied to the ECL where the play tends to open up and sitting in is not done as much at the higher levels by others?

Collect $200 for Pas(sing)Coe
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2017, 07:20:12 PM »
Is this league only?   And how might this be applied to the ECL where the play tends to open up and sitting in is not done as much at the higher levels by others?

Collect $200 for Pas(sing)Coe

I haven't looked at the CL numbers, but I suspect they are more generous to us than the league.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,430
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2017, 07:29:12 PM »
Actually:


Team................Res...Poss %
Sevilla..............2-2....49
Spartak M........1-1....64
Maribor............7-0....66
Maribor............3-0....68
Sevilla..............3-3....30
Spartak M........7-0....54


Only Maribor had more than 65% possession and a win. The only game we hit the sweet spot was Spartak at home.
Better looking than Samie.

Online The 92A

  • Alberto Incontidor. Peneus. Phantom Thread Locker. Mr Bus. But there'll be another one along soon enough. Almost as bad as Jim...
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,662
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »
Sorted. Buy a few 'telephone box players' for the '10 behind the ball teams' and keep the best 'Gegen pressers' for the 'better' sides, that sorts rotation as well ;)

Seriously though, the players that can make a difference against teams that keep their shape and sit back, tend to come at a premium both in terms of their reputation and price. If Klopp decides that is what is required in our league, where the structure of the premiership and the influence of the LMA regulars seems to encourage this approach in 'smaller' teams, we are going to struggle to, for want of a better word, that doesn't make we want to squirm; 'moneyball' them. These players tend to be the ones everyone knows about and are fighting for, we aren't City and can't solve our problems by discard and replace, or not to the same intent. If Klopp decides to vary his philosophy to overcome the teams that concede possession, it would also require some flexibility from our owners.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:58:58 AM by The 92A »
Still Dreaming of a Harry Quinn

Offline i6uuaq

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
  • Hmm... what's this personal text thing, then?
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2017, 11:28:13 AM »
Have you just joined the forum? PoP is Colin Pascoe.

This is news to me. Cool.

About breaking the low block, I feel like we've been scoring a little more from corners this year. Do you think that might be part of a deliberate strategy to circumvent low blocks?
"I've not seen it and I'm not being Arsene Wenger," Dalglish said. "If there's something untoward then I am sure the governing body will act appropriately."

Offline poopscoop

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 589
  • And what a delighted scorer – it's Tommy Smith!
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2017, 12:37:08 PM »
Nice post PoP. I came away from that game choosing not to over-analyse. I don't see a fatal flaw in gegenpress. I didn't have any issue with the way the team was setup.
I missed the first 15 because of shit traffic and that was the most animated I got all day - the atmosphere at the ground was very pre Chirstmas and that was mimicked by the players. The performance was just so, Meh!
Sloppy everywhere when a bit of composure / incisiveness was required. I thought Trent was our best performer until he had a 10 minute, second half, brain fart and got hooked for Joemez.
Tierney was weak throughout and did nothing to curtail the ridiculous amount of timewasting - only +1 and +3 minutes of added time respectively.
Got to respect Salomon Rondon for the job he did, he is a proper unit. He'd be a perfect hold up man if any of his teammates had the courage to come out and play. Having said that, I'd have had the fullback in front of him as soon as it became clear that was there only out ball.
It was a game we didn't play well in, but still had the lion's share of possession and could have scabbed a win at the end.
Mane was particularly wasteful in possession and decision making as was Phil IMO. What's more, Klavan is finally winning me over. I always saw him as a stop gap squad player and while the latter may still be true, the former is not - he's much better than that. His positional play and reading of the game has come on in leaps and bounds since Matip's injury - which I suppose comes with having a run in the side and the confidence of your teammates.
Andy Robertson did nothing wrong at left back but he looked a bit lightweight and one dimensional against pretty limited opposition. It's a bit unfair to single him out because many were far from their best. This reminded me of one of those games earlier in the season where we battered a team but couldn't score. C'est la vie, I suppose, it's no great shakes because we know that for every off day we have, we'll spank four in in the next. Happy days.

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,180
  • The first five yards........
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2017, 11:34:09 AM »
55% possession, 7 shots on target, 4 goals.

The less we have the ball, the better we are!

In fact, we've won 63% on average of all games where we had less than 60% possession. Gegimpressive!

I wonder if there's an in-built distortion in these statistics. It is interesting that the optimal amount of possession seems to be below 60 per cent, but one could argue this is not surprising since after a goal, certainly two, the opposition is no longer interested in sitting back and giving you the ball. Hence it will be rare for a team coasting at 2 or 3 goals to nil to dominate possession in the way they might be before the first goal goes in.  In other words it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more goals you get the less you're going to dominate the ball.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Online Roger Federer

  • Christ imagine naming yourself after Roger Federer
  • Believer
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,836
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Liverpool FC v West Brom 0-0 – It's a numbers game
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2017, 01:50:01 PM »
I wonder if there's an in-built distortion in these statistics. It is interesting that the optimal amount of possession seems to be below 60 per cent, but one could argue this is not surprising since after a goal, certainly two, the opposition is no longer interested in sitting back and giving you the ball. Hence it will be rare for a team coasting at 2 or 3 goals to nil to dominate possession in the way they might be before the first goal goes in.  In other words it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more goals you get the less you're going to dominate the ball.
Exactly my thoughts as well, think I mentioned it in this thread.

I wonder what our possession stats look like until we get the first goal? If more often than not it's less than 60% there might be something more to this theory, but if we constantly have 65% or more, but back off (or the opposition changes game plan) after we score, I'm not sure it means as much.