Author Topic: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18  (Read 24283 times)

Offline Zimagic

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #80 on: January 5, 2018, 04:54:57 pm »
A few observations:

Title Race: 
No one, including City, will go perfect over the remaining 16 matches.  A team going well will be in the 2.4 -2.5 ppg (38-40 points).  So best anyone can do is about 85-87 points.  City can match that at 1.5-1.6 ppg!

CL Spots: 
I still maintain that United & Chelsea will be in a CL position by season end.  I believe Arsenal are out, they haven't done 2.25 ppg over the 2nd half of a season for quite awhile now (look at the data, their 2nd half's are weaker than their 1st half's). 
The threat to our position is Spurs.  Over the past 3 season's they have had stronger ends then beginnings, and have achieved over 2.13 ppg in 2 of these.
It is very possible that we go better than 1.94 ppg over the remainder of the season, we did it last year with a poor January, which will make the hurdle for Spurs even greater

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that United will continue or get close to their PPG. They are in 3 competitions and have been extremely lucky in quite a few games to come away with anything, let alone all 3. Their xG is the worst of the top 6 and I'd put to you that, if they didn't have DeGea, no-one would be suggesting that they'd maintain their form.

DeGea included, I think the CL & probably FA cup will see them dropping a lot more points over the second half of the season.
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Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #81 on: January 5, 2018, 05:00:50 pm »
I find it interesting that everyone assumes that United will continue or get close to their PPG. They are in 3 competitions and have been extremely lucky in quite a few games to come away with anything, let alone all 3. Their xG is the worst of the top 6 and I'd put to you that, if they didn't have DeGea, no-one would be suggesting that they'd maintain their form.

DeGea included, I think the CL & probably FA cup will see them dropping a lot more points over the second half of the season.

If you look at the data, they only need to do 1.75 ppg for the remainder of the season to pass the Cl spot threshold....that is very high probability IMO. 

They may not stay in 2nd place, but they will be in the CL spots.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #82 on: January 5, 2018, 05:03:53 pm »
I'm just going through the Results Comparison for the top 6, I'll update the OP later.

But as for Spurs.

Spurs are currently -9 and finished on 86 points last year.
We're on +6 and finished on 76 last year.
:D

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #83 on: January 5, 2018, 05:10:50 pm »
I'm just going through the Results Comparison for the top 6, I'll update the OP later.

But as for Spurs.

Spurs are currently -9 and finished on 86 points last year.
We're on +6 and finished on 76 last year.

Yup & we were 1 point behind them at this time last season, with our dire January still to be played out.....+3 right now  ;D

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #84 on: January 5, 2018, 07:15:34 pm »
Yup & we were 1 point behind them at this time last season, with our dire January still to be played out.....+3 right now  ;D

Point to be noted is that Due to the WC fixture arrangements, the 22nd fixture this year has been played as early as New Years Day, however the 22nd fixture last year was played on 21st January so we're already a little bit into that period now.

In results comparison as well, we've already played all of our defeats of last season.

Only thing is by chronological order of number of fixtures, we were still dire most of February as well. We picked up a little bit only from March ie. from the 27th fixture against Arsenal.

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #85 on: January 5, 2018, 07:43:57 pm »
Point to be noted is that Due to the WC fixture arrangements, the 22nd fixture this year has been played as early as New Years Day, however the 22nd fixture last year was played on 21st January so we're already a little bit into that period now.

In results comparison as well, we've already played all of our defeats of last season.

Only thing is by chronological order of number of fixtures, we were still dire most of February as well. We picked up a little bit only from March ie. from the 27th fixture against Arsenal.

Thnx, I'd missed that.

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2018, 08:12:03 pm »
I'll do the updates after the Mancs match tomorrow, but Arsenal are toast....they need to go @ 2.40 ppg to get to 75 points, which they aren't going to do.

Just Spurs to worry about....or maybe Chelsea if they continue to play like they did yesterday, Leicester were very unfortunate not to come away with a win.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2018, 10:10:54 pm »
I'll do the updates after the Mancs match tomorrow, but Arsenal are toast....they need to go @ 2.40 ppg to get to 75 points, which they aren't going to do.

Just Spurs to worry about....or maybe Chelsea if they continue to play like they did yesterday, Leicester were very unfortunate not to come away with a win.

I think we'll give all three of United, Chelsea and Spurs something to worry about.

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2018, 03:50:37 pm »
Another interesting tidbit:

We've now played 13 matches against the top10, more than Chelsea & Arsenal each with 12, and Spurs & Utd each with 11

AND......we've played 7 against the top6, same as Arsenal, but more than Chelsea with 6, and Spurs & Utd each with 5.

We're in a good position right now.

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2018, 09:38:29 am »
Updates:

Offline JCB

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2018, 06:19:49 pm »
Thanks for all the work you put into this guys, really appreciate it and find it very interesting. I did some work on PPG analysis back in October and put it in the Stats thread but it occurs to me that you might find it interesting and applicable to your work here and can even use some of the data for benchmarking.  Sorry if it's stuff you already know but I thought it was worth including just in case you missed it.

Basically, I was interested in 2 things at the time:
1) Analysing PPG data w.r.t. a team's final positions over the course of the Premiership.
2) Seeing if it was possible to split the PPG into smaller groups very much like jp does here with the top and bottom teams' PPG.

I collected all the data from 2000 onwards to generate a big enough sample size and got to work. I broke the teams into quarters, thirds and halfs to see if segmenting the teams could be useful,  the first table here is the summary output from my work. What I found interesting was that a PPG of 1.83 (1st table: No Groups Column) on average was enough for CL qualification and not the 2 PPG I originally thought was the norm. I was quite concerned my data was wrong so I re-did the work looking at median values instead -  enabling me to ignore any outliers that may have thrown the dataset -  but I still got very similar results (differing from the average by 0.05). I then had a look at the last 3 seasons (the 2nd table here) and realised that my average results seemed about right.   



Just to be on the safe side however, for one last check I decided to plot the Points data on a graph and added some trendlines to them to see if the historic data had anything to say and came up with this:



Basically for the top three positions there's a minimal trend with regards to Final Points over the course of the last 17 years, however the next three positions shows a more pronounced upwards trend, pretty much reinforcing the fact that the EPL has become more competitive over the last few years, especially for that last CL spot.

That means that for positions 1-3 we can pretty much state with a reasonable level of confidence that 2.3 PPG will, on average, win you the league, 2.1 PPG will get you 2nd and 2 PPG will get you 3rd.

That 4th spot is a little bit more ambiguous and should in effect be slightly higher than the 1.83 I recorded. Looking at the 2nd table ( ie the last three seasons) the data here implies it should be 1.86 but I suspect it might be slightly higher, possibly closer to 1.9.

With regards to segmenting the teams into smaller groups, I found some small anomalies in bracketing the teams into quarters and thirds that has me 2nd guessing their usefulness. JP here breaks the EPL into two groups which is about the right amount of segmentation that one would want especially when teams can easily flip from one group to another based on their results throughout a season. You can use the data from the first table (2 groups) for benchmarking with a similar level of confidence here, as per before position 1-3 should be about right with the 4th position maybe being a little bit higher than recorded here.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 06:21:22 pm by JCB »

Offline drmick

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2018, 08:37:36 pm »
Interesting work JCB.

Man City destrooyed the term "big four". LFC nearly let them restore it. And Spurs did enough building to ensure that there was never a "big five".

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2018, 11:14:42 pm »
Chelsea have the 12:30 Saturday k.o. away to Brighton, after 30 minutes of extra time tonight.....and missing Pedro & Morata......could be interesting  ;D

Offline campioni

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2018, 12:22:46 am »
Chelsea have the 12:30 Saturday k.o. away to Brighton, after 30 minutes of extra time tonight.....and missing Pedro & Morata......could be interesting  ;D

9 games for them in January now with a period of extra time thrown in as well. Hopefully it’ll take its toll and they start dropping League points. Another 0-0 on Saturday?

Offline Fluke

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2018, 12:28:31 am »
9 games for them in January now with a period of extra time thrown in as well. Hopefully it’ll take its toll and they start dropping League points. Another 0-0 on Saturday?
Probably not with a fresh Hazard... hopefully Willian is tired.  Jeez he looks dangerous whenever he has the ball...
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Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2018, 12:13:08 am »
Updated.

Our first -3 of the season, which isn't too bad. A chance to grab +2 at Huddlesfield next week.
:D

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2018, 05:52:50 pm »
Updated results matrix

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2018, 06:01:54 pm »
Updated Champions League Fight Summary:

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2018, 07:41:48 pm »
Ged Rea
 
@ged0407
 
Teams to have beaten @LFC more than once in the league under Jurgen Klopp.
3 - Swansea City, 2 - Crystal Palace, Leicester City.

Offline drmick

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2018, 08:18:22 pm »
They are still bitter we poached Rodgers.

Offline redtel

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2018, 09:23:52 pm »
Point to be noted is that Due to the WC fixture arrangements, the 22nd fixture this year has been played as early as New Years Day, however the 22nd fixture last year was played on 21st January so we're already a little bit into that period now.

In results comparison as well, we've already played all of our defeats of last season.

Only thing is by chronological order of number of fixtures, we were still dire most of February as well. We picked up a little bit only from March ie. from the 27th fixture against Arsenal.

Yes, there are normally 19 match days up to Dec31 with 19 from Jan 1st even in previous WC years, but 21 match days before Dec 31 this year as you say.

Match Day 24 has turned into a nightmare the last 3 seasons. Beaten 0-2 by relegated Hull last year and by same score at Leicester in their great run in 2015-16 and now another goalless defeat. A goal would be good in this fixture next year!

Let's hope we can replicate the 14 match points haul we achieved last season after that defeat.


We are definitely believers and we’ve won the fucking lot!

Offline zabadoh

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2018, 04:52:59 pm »
Updated results matrix

Thanks JP for doing this

So it looks like draws are dragging us down.  I see a lot of 3-3 and 1-1 draws, which of course points to our defending.

Our GA this season is 29 in 24 matches, as opposed to 18, 16, and 16 for the top 3.

Our GF this season is 54, as opposed to 70, 49, and 45 for the top 3.

This transfer window, we've basically swapped Coutinho for VVD.  The latter will take some time to get up to speed with Klopp's coaching, but it will be interesting to monitor how that changes us for the rest of the season. 

Even moreso next season after VVD gets a full preseason and we add Keita. 
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Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #102 on: February 1, 2018, 09:56:08 am »
Updates:

4 into 3 spots, will someone go hot, will someone crack?

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #103 on: February 4, 2018, 09:22:25 pm »


Crap today but still in a good position.

+7 very possible by the time we play United.
« Last Edit: February 4, 2018, 10:10:07 pm by Kashinoda »
:D

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #104 on: February 4, 2018, 09:24:12 pm »
We really should be winning every home game left this season.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #105 on: February 5, 2018, 01:58:51 am »
Updated to include Spurs and Chelsea for comparison.

Updates:

4 into 3 spots, will someone go hot, will someone crack?

Maybe up the 4th place target to 80 points? Looking like a similar season to 13/14.
:D

Offline MerseysideBrum

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #106 on: February 5, 2018, 03:10:06 pm »
Updated to include Spurs and Chelsea for comparison.

Maybe up the 4th place target to 80 points? Looking like a similar season to 13/14.
a season where you get 4th with 73 points?
The reds are coming up the hill boys.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #107 on: February 5, 2018, 03:49:10 pm »
a season where you get 4th with 73 points?

???

:D

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #108 on: February 5, 2018, 03:50:43 pm »
???



Arsenal didn't need 79 points to get 4th.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #109 on: February 5, 2018, 03:54:16 pm »
Arsenal didn't need 79 points to get 4th.

I take your point but Everton, Spurs or United needed 80 points to reach top 4 and failed.

:D

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #110 on: February 5, 2018, 04:00:45 pm »
I take your point but Everton, Spurs or United needed 80 points to reach top 4 and failed.



That is not how you look at it. If you were asked what you needed to get top four that season then it would be 1 point more than Spurs (or whoever finished 5th that season). Not 79.


Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #111 on: February 5, 2018, 04:05:18 pm »
That is not how you look at it. If you were asked what you needed to get top four that season then it would be 1 point more than Spurs (or whoever finished 5th that season). Not 79.



That's exactly how I look at it, semantics.  :wave

If you asked Spurs, Everton or United how many points they needed for top 4 that season it would be 80.

It's not a ridiculous comparison to make that positions 2-4 will be similar points wise to 13/14. The difference is the teams finishing in 5th and 6th are going to be incredibly close.
:D

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #112 on: February 5, 2018, 04:39:28 pm »
As many of you know, I've been providing data for this yearly thread for well over a decade.

The analysis for the CL spots has always been based on the minimum required to be 4th, ie 1 more point than the 5th placed team....so the 5th placed team points has always been the reference point.

Over these years, 70 was the reference point, as 69 was the highest point total for a 5th placed team (in recent PL 38 match, 3 point for a win, seasons).

Last season, Arsenal ended up in 5th with 75 points, so 76 has become the reference point, although to be fair, I've shaved it back 1 point to 75 as I believed it to be a one off. 

This season may reinforce that the top5/6 are getting stronger relative to the rest, and we may have to achieve 76 or more to get 4th.

Offline redy

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #113 on: February 5, 2018, 07:16:22 pm »
As many of you know, I've been providing data for this yearly thread for well over a decade.

The analysis for the CL spots has always been based on the minimum required to be 4th, ie 1 more point than the 5th placed team....so the 5th placed team points has always been the reference point.

Over these years, 70 was the reference point, as 69 was the highest point total for a 5th placed team (in recent PL 38 match, 3 point for a win, seasons).

Last season, Arsenal ended up in 5th with 75 points, so 76 has become the reference point, although to be fair, I've shaved it back 1 point to 75 as I believed it to be a one off. 

This season may reinforce that the top5/6 are getting stronger relative to the rest, and we may have to achieve 76 or more to get 4th.

The fight for top 4 is forcing everybody to raise their game. Hence the high points totals in top 6 and 3 points between 11th to 19th or 7 points between the bottom 10.

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #114 on: February 5, 2018, 09:59:19 pm »
Updated results matrix

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #115 on: February 5, 2018, 10:02:41 pm »
Also updated OP.

Chelsea already 20 points worse off, mental.
:D

Offline JP-65

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #116 on: February 6, 2018, 05:14:04 pm »
Updated Champions League Analysis

Still firmly in the camp that Arsenal don't have it in them to go 2.50 ppg or greater to get into the CL spots.

Chelsea, who looked secure are now in a dogfight with Spurs & ourselves.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #117 on: February 6, 2018, 07:59:18 pm »
Also updated OP.

Chelsea already 20 points worse off, mental.

Can you add the same for Man United as well, mate?

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2018, 10:52:14 pm »
Can you add the same for Man United as well, mate?

Done :)

:D

Offline zabadoh

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Re: Results Comparison Thread 2017/18
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2018, 08:50:39 am »
All of our remaining matches look so winnable...
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