Topic: Lawless Liverpool?

[Elzar]

Liverpool has the press because it's a 9 year old girl that died, bless her. But this isn't a one city thing. End of July London had a couple days of about 3 shootings ending in deaths. Just last week there was 4 stabbings in London in the space of 3 days. I've not done any looking, but I bet I can find loads of others from around other cities.

The media needs to start reporting these as failings of the country, because that is what they are, rather than focussing on local policing.

The poor mum will have no idea what to do with herself, and there will be plenty of people that know what has happened that won't even say a word to the police. I'm glad the police said from the off that they don't just want the shooter, they are going to go for those that actioned this shooting, supplied the gun and enabled this whole tragedy to happen.

[Elzar]

It's being reported that the police have been given a name by 2 different sources

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62655200

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What's the crime like in Liverpool, compared to other cities of similar size in the UK; good, bad, or similar?

I don't think it's that bad. Been (attempted) mugged a couple of times, had my car stolen outside the pictures, missus had her wheels stolen, Had to chase dickheads out of my garden once.

That's over 35 years of living here, so not too bad.

Generally feels pretty safe, but I do admit that you have to stick up for yourself as there are dickheads around who'll try it on - same as anywhere.

When I lived in London, Cambridge, Telford and other places, seen some shit as well - so it's everywhere.

I'd maybe feel a bit different if I were smaller or female.

[Indomitable_Carp]

What's the crime like in Liverpool, compared to other cities of similar size in the UK; good, bad, or similar?

Crime rate are not too bad compared to other cities. In general I find Liverpool a very safe city to walk around - more so these days. I am not sure if it used to be much worse, or it was just because I was a teenager, but I saw and was on the recieving end of some pretty crazy stuff growing up (I have been battered and seen a lot of fights amongst other things), or otherwise you heard plenty of crazy stories from people in school.

But as an adult I have rarely felt that threatened. The chances of being mugged or something similar are few and far between and I feel like, outside of town on a Friday/Saturday night, the chances of being randomly assaulted are very rare and certainly a lot less frequent then when you are a teenager. Stabbings seem to be increasingly common, as with everywhere - but once again that is primarily teenagers who think you now need to bring knives to what used to be a fist fight.

All that said, some areas have more problems then others. And as a few other have said things like lads bombing around in large groups on scramblers and quad bikes is a big problem and dangerous and which I haven´t seen so much elsewhere.

The problem in Liverpool is with high-level organised crime and the things that trickle down from that - primarily gangs of lads on the street who suddenly think they are gangsters. If you are not involved in it you are unlikely to ever be on the recieving end of it, and you are not going to see it wandering around on a visit. But that is what makes incidences like these over the last few days so shocking is that people have been dragged in who are not involved. Some of the people involved are utterly reckless.

[gregor]

It's being reported that the police have been given a name by 2 different sources

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62655200

Not surprising I don't think - I know an ex copper who worked on the Rhys Jones case and he said that within a day or so they knew it was Mercer who had pulled the trigger, the challenge was proving it. Someone being named anonymously is one thing but let's just hope this can get done in court.

[Drinks Sangria]

I only grew up in Liverpool until I was about 11, then I moved but regularly visited family and still work in town. So whilst I wasn't there every day growing up, I spent pretty much a month every Summer in Liverpool and sporadic weeks throughout the year plus maybe every other weekend at my Grandparent's. I've usually felt safe. There were nutters in school who came from bad families who'd tell you some scary stories, but by and large I've always got by okay.

Had a few nobheads start on me for no reason in town, but that's been maybe twice across a decade. One child/teenager tried to mug me once on the edge of Norris Green Park one evening, I had headphones in so couldn't hear what he was saying as he came up to me, I then didn't really gather what he mumbled when I stopped to engage and he said it again 'give me your fucking phone and wallet' and I just carried on walking and he did nothing. Never had anything else of the sort anywhere. Helps that he was about 5'2 and maybe 13, I could have easily flattened him and he didn't show any weapon, had it been someone more my size it had probably have gone differently.

I've seen a lot more trouble in small, backwater, semi-rural towns than I have in Liverpool. I think the crime currently just follows the pattern nationally - escalation. It's been said in here before and it's right, whereas even as recently as 20 years ago largely any issues were settled with a fist fight, one person decides to escalate this to using a blade and all in that same world or sub culture - whatever you want to call it - start to carry them.

Never had my car nicked, never been assaulted in a non-night out setting, never had my car damaged or my house burgled when I've been in or did live in the City. 

[gregor]

What's the crime like in Liverpool, compared to other cities of similar size in the UK; good, bad, or similar?

To be honest, I think the crime rate for the city as a whole can sometimes be a bit misleading. I live in a nice suburban part of Liverpool, and generally spend my time around here or in town, where there's obviously a bigger police presence at weekends. I always feel safe. But North and South Liverpool can sometimes feel like two different cities. I've worked around a few places in North Liverpool and there is much more of an edge to it, you see a lot more kids who look like they're up to no good hanging about, or riding dirt bikes up and down the streets as mentioned. It just doesn't feel as safe in some areas, even daytime. There are spots of South Liverpool like this too but not many. It's a problem that's born from poverty, and I honestly don't think it will ever get better. There are a minority of people with an absolute disconnect from society, with no stake in it, that will do pretty much anything and don't care about the consequences.

[DangerScouse]

What's the crime like in Liverpool, compared to other cities of similar size in the UK; good, bad, or similar?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/23/its-crazy-and-it-needs-to-stop-shock-and-anger-in-liverpool-after-week-of-violence

[Drinks Sangria]

To be honest, I think the crime rate for the city as a whole can sometimes be a bit misleading. I live in a nice suburban part of Liverpool, and generally spend my time around here or in town, where there's obviously a bigger police presence at weekends. I always feel safe. But North and South Liverpool can sometimes feel like two different cities. I've worked around a few places in North Liverpool and there is much more of an edge to it, you see a lot more kids who look like they're up to no good hanging about, or riding dirt bikes up and down the streets as mentioned. It just doesn't feel as safe in some areas, even daytime. There are spots of South Liverpool like this too but not many. It's a problem that's born from poverty, and I honestly don't think it will ever get better. There are a minority of people with an absolute disconnect from society, with no stake in it, that will do pretty much anything and don't care about the consequences.

It's the same with most Cities and you're right, crime is an economic outcome. Most big Cities do have divides, typically it's a river or a rail track that connotes which will be the wealthy and impoverished side. My Grandparents live in Wales now but for 60 years lived between Calderstones Park and the golf course, it's absolutely lovely round there, felt so safe and was like a different City to where my cousins lived in L21. Always felt a touch ropey there throughout the 90s and is worse to this day.

London is the same though, as is Manchester. South west side of Manchester is really nice, leafy, calm and quiet. North and south east are dodgy as fuck, split by the train track. London has the affluent West End and North but has the most deprived areas of the country in parts of the south and east of the city.

[liverbloke]

We need more multiculturalism in Liverpool - not that we don't have our fair share

Regardless of what the right-wingers may think, the majority of crime culture and crimes committed is by young white men - usually recruited from the same old deprived housing estates that have been run down by lack of investment, lack of policing and basically because no one gives a shit.

The criminals offer them a way out.

Introduce multi-culture into those estates - and that multi-culture itself must not become self-ghettoised it must integrate too - and you reduce majorities and reintroduce other cultural factors like family, respect and morals which have been erased by the criminals as they want them to be seen as 'family' only.

But we all must look in the mirror. Do you buy 'knock-off' stuff? Do you smoke weed? And don't give me the bullshit that you but it from John down the road and he's a good family man. Grow your own fair enough but where did you buy the plants? There's always a criminal link. If it's illegal then it's criminal and you are adding to the problem.

And don't give me that shit that you wouldn't shoot a child - of course we fucking know that - but it all adds up and it all feeds the monster and that monster would shoot a child.

So you want a good world? Then let it start with that man/woman in the mirror.

[gray19lfc]

Minute of applause on 9 mins during the Bournemouth game would be a nice touch.

[Crosby Nick]

A 35 year old man has been arrested in connection with the killing apparently. Could ‘just ‘ be the man who was chased into the house. Fairly sure he was described as 35 on the news yesterday.

London has pockets of wealthy areas and then fairly dodgy areas all over the city to be honest. Not just a case of saying the West is ok or the South is dodgy. While South London definitely has some areas I wouldn’t want to walk around in, there’s tons of good places too and often the two are very close together. Every borough has ‘nice’ bits and some fairly deprived areas too. That poor old man who was stabbed to death on his mobility scooter was about a mile from where I live. There’s potential for something tragic to happen anywhere and everywhere but you still have to be incredibly unfortunate.

Watching from afar, I don’t get the impression Liverpool is worse than Manchester or other cities, and as said no more violent on a night out than loads of mid sized crap towns. It’s just tragic when someone so young, and completely uninvolved gets caught up with wannabe gangsters acting so recklessly. That obviously makes it newsworthy and as is often the case you then seem to get a few incidents in quick succession which can make the scale of it feel worse.

[duvva 💅]

A 35 year old man has been arrested in connection with the killing apparently. Could ‘just ‘ be the man who was chased into the house. Fairly sure he was described as 35 on the news yesterday.

Just read they’re being recalled to prison. So does that mean they were on some kind of temp release? This just gets more tragic by the hour if so

[Drinks Sangria]

A 35 year old man has been arrested in connection with the killing apparently. Could ‘just ‘ be the man who was chased into the house. Fairly sure he was described as 35 on the news yesterday.

London has pockets of wealthy areas and then fairly dodgy areas all over the city to be honest. Not just a case of saying the West is ok or the South is dodgy. While South London definitely has some areas I wouldn’t want to walk around in, there’s tons of good places too and often the two are very close together. Every borough has ‘nice’ bits and some fairly deprived areas too. That poor old man who was stabbed to death on his mobility scooter was about a mile from where I live. There’s potential for something tragic to happen anywhere and everywhere but you still have to be incredibly unfortunate.

Watching from afar, I don’t get the impression Liverpool is worse than Manchester or other cities, and as said no more violent on a night out than loads of mid sized crap towns. It’s just tragic when someone so young, and completely uninvolved gets caught up with wannabe gangsters acting so recklessly. That obviously makes it newsworthy and as is often the case you then seem to get a few incidents in quick succession which can make the scale of it feel worse.

What I said was fairly reductive but this was largely the point I was making - there's good an bad in most areas even though historically speaking there's some clearer splits.

With the advent of gentrification - most keenly felt in London - big cities are starting to have a patchwork feel where you have millionaire's rows leading straight into areas of hyper-deprivation, leading into another area of affluence. Liverpool is the same - if you drive from West Derby/ Fincham end towards Old Swan, it's like someone flicked a switch as it goes from green, spacious and affleunt to run down and neglected within the space of a mile.

As people with money (but not enough to buy in high-end areas) start to move in and do up houses in lesser-desired areas, this drags the place upwards, not always for the better, but does produce a very patchwork effect to more clearly historically segmented areas.

[-Willo-]

I dont get it,

How could the lad who was shot sit in the house with a dead child whilst waiting for his mates to pick him up to take him Hospital.

We need to get stricter rules in this country for people like this, stop people like this breeding, he will be out of jail in 10 years and start a family, then his kids will be useless to society too, why are we allowing little rats to breed.

[redbyrdz]

I dont get it,

How could the lad who was shot sit in the house with a dead child whilst waiting for his mates to pick him up to take him Hospital.

The girl was still alive, she died at Alder Hey. That's the bit I least understand about this incredibly sad story, how could his mates take him to hospital, but leave a dying child?!


With regards to the crime - I think this type of gang violence was always there, but the gangs controlled it more, so it wouldn't spill into the normal society.

[Circa1892]

I dont get it,

How could the lad who was shot sit in the house with a dead child whilst waiting for his mates to pick him up to take him Hospital.

Because they're fucking scum. When he's back in jail it needs to be made very fucking clear he's responsible for the death of a 9 year old girl. The gunman and anyone protecting him need putting down aswell.

[jillcwhomever]

The target of the gunman has been arrested and will be sent back to prison. It sounds as though he was out on special licence. This case gets even more tragic.

[Max100]

All this is linked to scum belongoing to gangs - and the gangs largely exist to supply drugs.

Legalise all drugs. Sell them through licenced premises with an added tax. Use that tax to fund proper rehab programmes for addicts (and the provision of drugs for free to registered addicts).
This would:
a) eradicate the criminal gang element from the supply chain (and the violence that goes with it)
b) bring in revenue for the government
c) make it safer for users/addicts
d) slash the risk of theft-crime

Legalising drugs is NOT the answer.

[gregor]

We need to get stricter rules in this country for people like this, stop people like this breeding, he will be out of jail in 10 years and start a family, then his kids will be useless to society too, why are we allowing little rats to breed.

How on earth would this be policed?

[Nick110581]

The target of the gunman has been arrested and will be sent back to prison. It sounds as though he was out on special licence. This case gets even more tragic.

Let’s hope he speaks up as he will have an idea who was after him.

They may not have carried out the crime but would have ordered it.

It’s an utterly tragic story and there were two other kids in house.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Legalising drugs is NOT the answer.

It´s not THE answer. It´s part of a wider long term solution though.

[Bobsackamano]

We need more multiculturalism in Liverpool - not that we don't have our fair share

Regardless of what the right-wingers may think, the majority of crime culture and crimes committed is by young white men - usually recruited from the same old deprived housing estates that have been run down by lack of investment, lack of policing and basically because no one gives a shit.

The criminals offer them a way out.

Introduce multi-culture into those estates - and that multi-culture itself must not become self-ghettoised it must integrate too - and you reduce majorities and reintroduce other cultural factors like family, respect and morals which have been erased by the criminals as they want them to be seen as 'family' only.

But we all must look in the mirror. Do you buy 'knock-off' stuff? Do you smoke weed? And don't give me the bullshit that you but it from John down the road and he's a good family man. Grow your own fair enough but where did you buy the plants? There's always a criminal link. If it's illegal then it's criminal and you are adding to the problem.

And don't give me that shit that you wouldn't shoot a child - of course we fucking know that - but it all adds up and it all feeds the monster and that monster would shoot a child.

So you want a good world? Then let it start with that man/woman in the mirror.

Have to disagree with your multi cultural thing here. Crime follows from poverty, not from race. All you have done is take a right wing thought process and reversed it to be anti white instead of anti black. The crime rates for some non white ethnic groups is significantly higher than whites, however this is not due to race but the poverty which afflicts those groups and the areas they live in. South Liverpool is nice and relatively safe because there's money there and the opposite is true of many places in the north end.

Fully agree with you on how we need to look at ourselves though, if as a city we wanted to rid ourselves of this gang violence the single most effective thing we could do is stop buying coke. That's the lifeblood of much of this shit.

[Drinks Sangria]

Have to disagree with your multi cultural thing here. Crime follows from poverty, not from race. All you have done is take a right wing thought process and reversed it to be anti white instead of anti black. The crime rates for some non white ethnic groups is significantly higher than whites, however this is not due to race but the poverty which afflicts those groups and the areas they live in. South Liverpool is nice and relatively safe because there's money there and the opposite is true of many places in the north end.

Fully agree with you on how we need to look at ourselves though, if as a city we wanted to rid ourselves of this gang violence the single most effective thing we could do is stop buying coke. That's the lifeblood of much of this shit.

Agree with this. I've made my mistakes in the past personally, but I've never seen such widespread and blatant coke usage as you do these days - every man and his dog is on it, people who'd surprise you and there's very little discretion about where and when they take it.

[Black Bull Nova]

What's the crime like in Liverpool, compared to other cities of similar size in the UK; good, bad, or similar?

There's loads of stats around but this student guide is quite accessible. Liverpool 24th from 34.


https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/student-advice/where-to-study/how-safe-is-your-city

[Max100]

It´s not THE answer. It´s part of a wider long term solution though.

How so? Anything that has the potential to be dangerously and destructively addictive should never be made legal. We've all seen the damage an alcohol addiction can cause...alcohol being universally available and socially accetable...so why do you think making cocaine or heroine legal won't cause more problems?

[Max100]

There's loads of stats around but this student guide is quite accessible. Liverpool 24th from 34.


https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/student-advice/where-to-study/how-safe-is-your-city

Basically means Liverpool is the 11th worst out of the 36 (not 34) listed, with Manchester being the worst, but London wasn't listed for some reason.

[Nick110581]

Agree with this. I've made my mistakes in the past personally, but I've never seen such widespread and blatant coke usage as you do these days - every man and his dog is on it, people who'd surprise you and there's very little discretion about where and when they take it.

It’s rife everywhere and makes people act like c*nts.

[So… Howard Philips]

The ‘victim’ was sure to be picked up ina dark Audi, wasn’t he?

[Bobsackamano]

How so? Anything that has the potential to be dangerously and destructively addictive should never be made legal. We've all seen the damage an alcohol addiction can cause...alcohol being universally available and socially accetable...so why do you think making cocaine or heroine legal won't cause more problems?

We have also seen the damage that heroin addiction and coke dependency/addiction can cause as well. One destructive drug is legal and the others are not. The difference is one is served by busineses that pay tax to offset the social damage caused and the other allows criminal gangs a lucrative pathway to build their fortunes and cause mayhem and at the extreme end murder children.

People everywhere in the world, throughout human history have found ways to get off their heads, that's never going to stop and it's a fools errand to think you can. All we can do come up with the most effective system possible to mitigate the sad and sometimes tragic side effects of this human impulse.

Leaving the entire drugs market, free and unregulated, to criminal gangs doesn't seem to me to be an optimal solution, to say the least.

[Indomitable_Carp]

We have also seen the damage that heroin addiction and coke dependency/addiction can cause as well. One destructive drug is legal and the others are not. The difference is one is served by busineses that pay tax to offset the social damage caused and the other allows criminal gangs a lucrative pathway to build their fortunes and cause mayhem and at the extreme end murder children.

People everywhere in the world, throughout human history have found ways to get off their heads, that's never going to stop and it's a fools errand to think you can. All we can do come up with the most effective system possible to mitigate the sad and sometimes tragic side effects of this human impulse.

Leaving the entire drugs market, free and unregulated, to criminal gangs doesn't seem to me to be an optimal solution, to say the least.

Bingo. People are addicted to alcohol. There is massive problems associated with alcohol. People aren´t shooting each other dead in the street over alcohol. The only time they were in the Western world was when the US decided it would be a fantastic idea to try and impose a policy of prohibition, for the same reasons of societal puritanism that Max100 outlined. But guess what? The problems of alcohol did not go away in the United States. And the societal effects in terms of criminality got a lot worse.

To support the continued illegality of cocaine (as the main example) is to turn a blind eye to how its criminalisation leads to incidences such as this, but also to the literally tens of thousands of horrendous murders a year in countries like Colombia, Mexico etc. There is no way anyone will ever convince me those deaths are worth a fruitless attempt to dissuade people from using cocaine. We can preach about how people shouldn´t take cocaine. Maybe they shouldn´t (personally I don´t because of the reason I just outlined - but also for the fact it makes people act like c*nts and I´m pretty sure is responsible for the spike in Friday/saturday night violence in recent years) - but the fact is they do, despite its illegality. You can wish that wasn´t the case as much as you want. But the effects of addiction to cocaine and heroin are already here, and always have been. So better to take it out of the hands of criminals.

[Qston]

So the cowardly target of the attack and brought death to a family has been named

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62658221

Sounds like a lovely fella, as no doubt his associates are who took him to hospital but left a little girl there dying.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

So the cowardly target of the attack and brought death to a family has been named

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62658221

Sounds like a lovely fella, as no doubt his associates are who took him to hospital but left a little girl there dying.

If you search his name you can find an echo article about his burglaries in 2018, and also an article from 2019 where him and a bunch of other prisoners (including drug smugglers) are bragging about how easy life in prison is for them, bragging that it is "Butlins behind Bars", sharing photos in the sun.

[Qston]

If you search his name you can find an echo article about his burglaries in 2018, and also an article from 2019 where him and a bunch of other prisoners (including drug smugglers) are bragging about how easy life in prison is for them, bragging that it is "Butlins behind Bars", sharing photos in the sun.

Well given his obvious involvement in this when he returns to prison I am sure it will be just as a cushy for him. Walton nick, put him on the wing with the 'old school' criminals and stand back. Let's see how he likes it then.

Scum the lot of em

[Snail]

if as a city we wanted to rid ourselves of this gang violence the single most effective thing we could do is stop buying coke. That's the lifeblood of much of this shit.

Spot on. Myself and many others shoulder some of the blame for this.

[liverbloke]

Bingo. People are addicted to alcohol. There is massive problems associated with alcohol. People aren´t shooting each other dead in the street over alcohol. The only time they were in the Western world was when the US decided it would be a fantastic idea to try and impose a policy of prohibition, for the same reasons of societal puritanism that Max100 outlined. But guess what? The problems of alcohol did not go away in the United States. And the societal effects in terms of criminality got a lot worse.

To support the continued illegality of cocaine (as the main example) is to turn a blind eye to how its criminalisation leads to incidences such as this, but also to the literally tens of thousands of horrendous murders a year in countries like Colombia, Mexico etc. There is no way anyone will ever convince me those deaths are worth a fruitless attempt to dissuade people from using cocaine. We can preach about how people shouldn´t take cocaine. Maybe they shouldn´t (personally I don´t because of the reason I just outlined - but also for the fact it makes people act like c*nts and I´m pretty sure is responsible for the spike in Friday/saturday night violence in recent years) - but the fact is they do, despite its illegality. You can wish that wasn´t the case as much as you want. But the effects of addiction to cocaine and heroin are already here, and always have been. So better to take it out of the hands of criminals.

Taking drug use out of the hands of criminals?

So the criminals concentrate on people trafficking - so do we then legalise that to take it out of the hands of the criminals?

Okay so we legalise people trafficking so the criminals concentrate on child pornography - so we legalise that to take it out of the hands of the criminals.

The criminals concentrate on gun running - so we legalise gun running... you see where this argument and basically the whole world goes if we take this direction don't you?

Yes, down the shitter.

You have a point but in reality it's the same argument you used for prohibition that negates your own argument - the gangsters moved on to the next thing.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Taking drug use out of the hands of criminals?

So the criminals concentrate on people trafficking - so do we then legalise that to take it out of the hands of the criminals?

Okay so we legalise people trafficking so the criminals concentrate on child pornography - so we legalise that to take it out of the hands of the criminals.

The criminals concentrate on gun running - so we legalise gun running... you see where this argument and basically the whole world goes if we take this direction don't you?

Yes, down the shitter.

You have a point but in reality it's the same argument you used for prohibition that negates your own argument - the gangsters moved on to the next thing.

They do. But they do all those other things now. Can you point to any time in history in which organised crime has been more powerful globally, then right now as a result of the drug trade? There will never be the same level or money or buisiness in any of those other activites you mentioned, as in the drug trade.

Also on the point of human trafficking, a lot of people who are human trafficked into the UK are used as slave labour....within the drug trade. In particular mainly Vietnamese (such as those 39 who died in a lorry in Essex in 2019)  looking after marijuana plantations under lock and key.

When criminals are shooting each other dead in the streets of the UK, or mudering each other in the tens of thousands in South America, over human trafficking and child porn I might accept your point (not to say human trafficking isn´t a real issue)

To suggest the drug trade being mostly removed from the hands of organised crime would be anything other then a monumental blow to the power and profits or crime syndacates seems a bit disengenuous to be honest

[Zeppelin]

Fully agree with you on how we need to look at ourselves though, if as a city we wanted to rid ourselves of this gang violence the single most effective thing we could do is stop buying coke. That's the lifeblood of much of this shit.

Anyone who buys drugs is funding these gangs and are to some degree complicit in the crimes they commit.

[liverbloke]

They do. But they do all those other things now. Can you point to any time in history in which organised crime has been more powerful globally, then right now as a result of the drug trade? There will never be the same level or money or buisiness in any of those other activites you mentioned, as in the drug trade.

Also on the point of human trafficking, a lot of people who are human trafficked into the UK are used as slave labour....within the drug trade. In particular mainly Vietnamese (such as those 39 who died in a lorry in Essex in 2019)  looking after marijuana plantations under lock and key.

When criminals are shooting each other dead in the streets of the UK, or mudering each other in the tens of thousands in South America, over human trafficking and child porn I might accept your point (not to say human trafficking isn´t a real issue)

To suggest the drug trade being mostly removed from the hands of organised crime would be anything other then a monumental blow to the power and profits or crime syndacates seems a bit disengenuous to be honest

I know they do all of those things now (and more) that's why I said they would concentrate more on etc

You keep on mentioning the death in South - and I guess you also mean Central - America so you're saying a global legalisation of the drugs trade?

That ain't gonna happen kid - not just because of what I've said, but because of all the world cultures, faiths, religions, politics, dictatorships etc etc need I go on? And if just one of them says no then the whole idea fails.

There's definitely an argument to be had, but without the main protagonist sitting around the table - the criminal community - then we're not really going to go very far are we?

Illegal drugs are here to stay - I guess if we (the world/human beings) have to accept that they (they being Class A) will always be illegal.

There is no simplistic answer.

[whiteboots]

This is a real nest of vipers.

Liverpool is no more lawless or dangerous than any other large port city.

The Bizzies will be using this as an opportunity to shake down all the drugs gangs and main faces in the city with warrants no problem. Rival gangs will happily grass each other up for financial  and territorial advantage. Within the gang itself self interest financially will come top- who is disposable?

The “victim” who was shot will know who did this, but will now be incredibly vulnerable back in prison. Within the gang the tenacity of the assailants will be admired and used as leverage, with the innocent girl “unfortunate” collateral damage. The gang responsible may itself suffer reprisals for a botched job.

The bizzies will be prioritising a “result” and happy to enjoy the windfall that comes with their  robust enquiries, deals will be done.

And unfortunately that will be a wrap ( sic)- til the next one