Topic: Liverpool 1 V 1 Burnley (Arfield, Salah)

[jckliew]

We've conceded eight goals in our two away games so far........

Certainly not  champion material.

[Tooter]

We've got massive problems at the moment, a shot to goal ratio of 12.5% (needs to be around 20%) and a defense that's so far conceded only 1 less than the worst defense in the league. So whilst many will point to the defense being the only problem, we also desperately need to add a natural goal scorer (we can rely on) to the squad. Every side playing for a top place needs a goal machine up front, which is the reason Chelsea will not win the league this year, and why the top 3 will end up in a mix of Utd, City and Spurs. Its the reason why we almost succeeded a couple of years ago, and the reason why we'll struggle to retain the top 4 this season.

[Art of Lies]

1. Lack of any decent winger - We got Mane in.
2. Lack of pace outside of Mane - Got Salah in.
3. Lack of goalscoring and shit attacking play at the end of Brendan's tenure - Clearly we're far better going forward now.
4. Need better central midfielders - Moved Lallana down there, improved Henderson and Can, and now signed Keita and Ox.
5. At a club recruitment level, discord between the manager and "transfer committee" - Clearly, that has been solved and the manager is working with Michael Edwards' team.
 
Those are the ones off the top of my head. We've clearly adopted a strategy of keeping the powder dry to do better over the long run. A bit like what Spurs have been doing recently. I'm not suggesting we're perfect, but clearly, we've identified and addressed issues since Klopp got the job.

The lack of leadership thing is a red herring. People moaned about Gerrard's leadership or lack thereof when he was the captain. Now that he's gone, he's turned into a demi-God of a leader.

As for Mig in goal, we went out and signed Karius and played him straight up. He clearly wasn't ready and Mig won his place back. Are you suggesting that we need to go out and buy another keeper? That's fine for you to say but clearly Klopp and co rate Karius very highly. Hell, most goalkeeping experts seem to rate him very highly. Maybe he'll turn out to be garbage and that solution won't address our goalkeeping problem at all, but it's clear evidence that we can identify issues and at least attempt to rectify them. Not all of those attempts work, but on the whole, our success rate isn't the worst and I think we're doing okay in being less risk-averse in the short term but for greater long-term benefit.

This!

Although for nr. 4 you forgot Wijnaldum, 33 league starts last season, 6 goals, 9 assists.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

1. Lack of any decent winger - We got Mane in.
2. Lack of pace outside of Mane - Got Salah in.
3. Lack of goalscoring and shit attacking play at the end of Brendan's tenure - Clearly we're far better going forward now.
4. Need better central midfielders - Moved Lallana down there, improved Henderson and Can, and now signed Keita and Ox.
5. At a club recruitment level, discord between the manager and "transfer committee" - Clearly, that has been solved and the manager is working with Michael Edwards' team.
 
Those are the ones off the top of my head. We've clearly adopted a strategy of keeping the powder dry to do better over the long run. A bit like what Spurs have been doing recently. I'm not suggesting we're perfect, but clearly, we've identified and addressed issues since Klopp got the job.

The lack of leadership thing is a red herring. People moaned about Gerrard's leadership or lack thereof when he was the captain. Now that he's gone, he's turned into a demi-God of a leader.

As for Mig in goal, we went out and signed Karius and played him straight up. He clearly wasn't ready and Mig won his place back. Are you suggesting that we need to go out and buy another keeper? That's fine for you to say but clearly Klopp and co rate Karius very highly. Hell, most goalkeeping experts seem to rate him very highly. Maybe he'll turn out to be garbage and that solution won't address our goalkeeping problem at all, but it's clear evidence that we can identify issues and at least attempt to rectify them. Not all of those attempts work, but on the whole, our success rate isn't the worst and I think we're doing okay in being less risk-averse in the short term but for greater long-term benefit.

Agree surprisingly with most of these points, except leadership and communication in the back does appear to be more than a red herring.

Its been a shite week in the woulda shoulda coulda category --- most of the bitching bemoans that we could have drawn at City if Salah finishes and Mane does not see red.   Second, we dominate Sevilla but only get a draw against a team that likes to play and to boot we get another home draw ----  fulfilling the prophecy of conceding stupid soft goals and being wasteful in front of our goal.

Our next week won't be like this one, again.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

missed it again because of work ... someone sum it up for me please

[El Lobo]

missed it again because of work ... someone sum it up for me please

Just watch any FA Cup tie against lower league opposition that we didn't win

[sms1986]

Certainly not  champion material.

Because you can tell that in September when Newcastle and Huddersfield are riding high after five games of 38.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Just watch any FA Cup tie against lower league opposition that we didn't win

Haha, Burnley are that shit to watch, you're not wrong. Kind of makes it all the more galling though.

[TheShanklyGates]

missed it again because of work ... someone sum it up for me please

Think back to any game against a parked bus team in the last decade or so and you'll get the gist.

[telekon]

Firmino on a wing is not optimal. I barely noticed him playing.
Salah making some bad decisions, especially taking some bad shots.
We were decent. 2-1 on another day.

[ThePeetmix]

One of those days. Burnley were excellent defensively and although on another day we could have scored more. They have to take credit.

The main criticism is conceding a soft goal again. We really do need to cut that out.

To put perspective on things, other than City and United, our rivals aren't much better off. Spurs drew with Burnley and Swansea. Chelsea lost to Burnley and drew at home with Arsenal. Arsenal got battered by ourselves, got beat by Stoke and dropped points today. So it's far from panic stations right now like some seem to suggest. We've got to sort out our defensive issues of course but after a couple weeks of struggling, we're not off the pace. We just need to get back to winning ways in the league soon.

[Geezer08]

The lack of communication and leadership is costing us dearly at the moment. There is just zero confidence in our ability to defend with agression and smartness.

For an example on saturday around 80 minute mark, Can and Klavan jumped for the same cross or throw in with no Burnly player in sight, Mignolet was stand and watching the situation only 3 meter behind them. It resulted in a corner for Burnley, no one communicated any anything, there is no situational awareness. Mignolet had the full overview and should have screamed for them to leave, so he could easily collect it.

Its just shambles at the moment! And for me there is too many changes at the moment

[killer-heels]

The lack of communication and leadership is costing us dearly at the moment. There is just zero confidence in our ability to defend with agression and smartness.

For an example on saturday around 80 minute mark, Can and Klavan jumped for the same cross or throw in with no Burnly player in sight, Mignolet was stand and watching the situation only 3 meter behind them. It resulted in a corner for Burnley, no one communicated any anything, there is no situational awareness. Mignolet had the full overview and should have screamed for them to leave, so he could easily collect it.

Its just shambles at the moment! And for me there is too many changes at the moment

Can got bollocked by everyone for that so I presume Klavan shouted for it but Can ignored it?

[Geezer08]

Can got bollocked by everyone for that so I presume Klavan shouted for it but Can ignored it?

Maybe, but the lack of communication and execution based on that is just no existing. Their goal is the same, Matip and Klavan going for the same ball.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Maybe, but the lack of communication and execution based on that is just no existing. Their goal is the same, Matip and Klavan going for the same ball.

Some situations don't need communication if players are switched on and make the right decision. A situation like that shouldn't need anyonr vocally claim the ball. Klavan has no business going for it.

[ThePoolMan]

Klopp's admission that he has no Plan B or C and his seeming inability to solve the defensive mess that we have, are very troubling. While the tactical naivete with one man down against the attacking power of City is more redolent of the amateurishness that Rodgers displayed in setting up his team against Chelsea which led to us losing the race for the Premiership.

[Purple Red]

Firmino on a wing is not optimal. I barely noticed him playing.
Salah making some bad decisions, especially taking some bad shots.
We were decent. 2-1 on another day.

Aye Firmino was largely anonymous.

[MihawkLFC]

Are people in here really moaning about Klopp?
get a fucking grip lads. if we finished 7th, didnt win a cup and didnt make the group stages of the CL then you can moan. Get behind the man.

[killer-heels]

Klopp's admission that he has no Plan B or C and his seeming inability to solve the defensive mess that we have, are very troubling. While the tactical naivete with one man down against the attacking power of City is more redolent of the amateurishness that Rodgers displayed in setting up his team against Chelsea which led to us losing the race for the Premiership.

Could you explain to me how a manager who has reached two european finals, 1 of which was in the Champions League which they lost in the last minute to the best side Bayern produced for years, who has won 2 league titles and who for us didnt lose in a single game against fellow top 6 sides can be described as tactically naive?

[Phil1986]

The conversion rate is the problem and was particularly on Saturday. 35:5 shots and the game ends 1:1 is unacceptable. We created loads but didn't convert and were very unluky (Solanke e.g.).

If you are shit at the back but great upfront you have to outscore the opponent. Not more not less. I am also sure that if Mané had played we would have scored another but this one is on the FA.

[killer-heels]

The conversion rate is the problem and was particularly on Saturday. 35:5 shots and the game ends 1:1 is unacceptable. We created loads but didn't convert and were very unluky (Solanke e.g.).

If you are shit at the back but great upfront you have to outscore the opponent. Not more not less. I am also sure that if Mané had played we would have scored another but this one is on the FA.

We were really good in the first half but in the second half we lost our heads a bit after 55-60 minutes. That was in particular led by Coutinho who took the fucking piss and then by Can doing some mad shots as well. The worst thing that there wasnt anyone ripping them to shreds on the pitch for doing it.

Forgetting their quality, a Gerrard or Suarez would absolutely bollock them for doing that. Its quite clear we are lacking leadership and thats an attribute Klopp needs to prioritise in January and next summer.

[redk84]

let the crowd moan if they want....make every attack count. Only certain players should be shooting from outside the box and only when they are either in a great position or there's no other option. Nail down that discipline and stop being so careless at the back and we'll be fine

very early days yet so as im seeing this season as starting fresh, as I do every season, im hoping a good run will calm these lot down who are all a bit too eager to perform at the moment and getting frustrated too easily.

The game on Saturday I was expecting our 2nd to come but I even noticed while we were playing that we weren't creating anything substantial. The game was drifting along and the frustration grew but the ideas weren't changing. Weren't putting them under any long enough spells of pressure.

bad week.

[Koplad83]

Firmino on a wing is not optimal. I barely noticed him playing.
Salah making some bad decisions, especially taking some bad shots.
We were decent. 2-1 on another day.

It drove me mad last season moving firmino when mane was out. In my opinion we are weakening two positions by doing it. Just bring someone into manes position and leave firmino central

[Koplad83]

There was one yesterday, who got banned and deleted and the call in shows have been a few

If klopp gets driven out I'll give up probably, that would be the straw that broke the camels back for me.

[Zimagic]

Are people in here really moaning about Klopp?
get a fucking grip lads. if we finished 7th, didnt win a cup and didnt make the group stages of the CL then you can moan. Get behind the man.

I think a lot of people are frustrated that the rhetoric isn't changing when the results continue to be bad. We've essentially thrown away 2 pretty comfortable home wins in a row through suspect defending and Klopp is going on about luck not wearing a Liverpool shirt or some such bollox.

Our defending from CM back through the back 4 is clearly not well organised. He fingered Can after the Seville game but plugged him right back in for Burnley and him not covering Arfield was the last in a succession of errors that led to Burnley's goal and ddn't mention him again in the post match presser. Maybe he's keeping that for the training ground but I'd prefer he just say to the press that it's not acceptable to defend from midfield in such a lacksadasical manner than going on about "luck". It's not luck, it's players not doing what they should and throwing away points needlessly.
 
Klopp has been talking about teams that play like ours being more open at the back, which I think is acceptable if we're scoring at the other end and if the general defensive play is of an acceptable level. It's clearly not. Individual errors are everywhere, passive marking on set-pieces, we don't covering runners in our zones... just very basic things that we're not doing game in, game out. And it's costing us.

Then we go up front and see 30+ shots with only one goal to show for it. Fine, maybe "luck" accounts for some of these but all 30+?

When your manager is as candid and refreshingly honest about football as Klopp generally is, empty platitudes like this stick out. He should be saying it's not good enough, it's unacceptable, there's a lot of work to do, players need to  understand their jobs, to do their jobs.

When you have a humdinger like the City draw last season that could have ended 4-4 or 5-5 or anything in-between but finished 1-1, you can go on about luck. When you play Seville or Burnley off the park leaving them chasing shadows for 90 minutes and still scrape a draw (because, let's face it, we could easily have lost both), going on about luck is a cop out.

Klopp's public response to what's happening on the field does not represent what we're seeing when we watch the games.

That's what a lot of people are moaning about.

[Chief Brody]

I wonder if they were trying a new approach to defending that they'd been working on in light of recent frailties.

Because even for our defence some of that on Saturday was especially poor.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Shite result and shite performance.

Personally the 'we did everything but score' mantra doesn't sit well with me, as the majority of our chances weren't clear cut, well worked openings - most were long range attempts.

We have been saying it for a week now, but we need to bounce back and see a reaction this week. Without being dramatic, this is a massive week for the Club - I don't want to be sitting here next week out of a cup competition and potentially 8 points behind one or both of the Manchester clubs.

I'm quite frustrated, as the problems we are seeing, are the ones we had last season - struggling to break down and beat teams who sit in and defend, and our own defence being shown up. On one hand I say to myself, 'It's only 5 games - maybe that's not enough of a sample size to get annoyed' but on the other hand I think, 'I am so fucking fed up seeing the same type of performance and result.'

I love Firmino, and there will always be a place in my team for him but I now wonder if there's a need for a top class striker, someone in the Costa mould who will come in and not be afraid to bully teams and throw himself about, just be a bit of a c**t really. Everything feels so nice at the moment.

They say a team is a reflection of their manager. Klopp is on the touchline getting angry and mad and screaming at 4th officials - I don't see any of that in our team.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

And is Gomez not worth a try alongside Matip?

[joezydudek]

And is Gomez not worth a try alongside Matip?

I'd like to see that tried out in the League Cup to see how they do together, if it looks like it has the makings of a decent pairing then why not give it a shot?

[stevensr123]

I'd like to see that tried out in the League Cup to see how they do together, if it looks like it has the makings of a decent pairing then why not give it a shot?

we have to try something because it would be madness to carry on doing what we are doing. Klopp isn't stupid, he showed last season he can adapt the play in the team and grind out results. If things carry on I'm sure he will make the adjustments needed. Guy is a world class coach and knows more than any of us that this isn't good enough.

[ThePoolMan]

Could you explain to me how a manager who has reached two european finals, 1 of which was in the Champions League which they lost in the last minute to the best side Bayern produced for years, who has won 2 league titles and who for us didnt lose in a single game against fellow top 6 sides can be described as tactically naive?

I did not call Klopp tactically naive. I was referring to the tactical naivete displayed against City when we didn't fall back and close up shop with one man down. A person can be tactically adept while showing naivete on a particular instance. The same way that a very capable person can occasionally commit a blunder.

Nonetheless when allied with our continuing inability to defend to the level of champions, it was troubling.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

If klopp gets driven out I'll give up probably, that would be the straw that broke the camels back for me.

I've said this a few times.

I terms of social Media and every idiot having a voice the genie is well and truly out of the bottle so unfortunately we have to live with it and hope the more sensible among the fan base can provide some perspective.

It doesn't help when the fucking rag of a local paper actually creates a story about some knobheads rant about Klopp on some shitty phone in.

Finally, it's the language some of these dickheads use "I want ....... out". I want. Fuck reason, commonsense, patience, basically anyone else, because I want. Tells you everything you need about the mentality that we're dealing with.

[Koplad83]

I've said this a few times.

I terms of social Media and every idiot having a voice the genie is well and truly out of the bottle so unfortunately we have to live with it and hope the more sensible among the fan base can provide some perspective.

It doesn't help when the fucking rag of a local paper actually creates a story about some knobheads rant about Klopp on some shitty phone in.

Finally, it's the language some of these dickheads use "I want ....... out". I want. Fuck reason, commonsense, patience, basically anyone else, because I want. Tells you everything you need about the mentality that we're dealing with.

I genuinely think we will be done for if we run klopp out. I don't think it'll come to that like but I thought the same about rafa and it took me a long time to get past his sacking.

[rojo para la vida]

It doesn't help when the fucking rag of a local paper actually creates a story about some knobheads rant about Klopp on some shitty phone in.

And they keep stooping low. There's a hysterical piece in today's edition.

'Elimination to Leicester would turn a disappointing run of form into a worrying one; that dreaded ‘c’ word – crisis – might even be uttered.'

Pricks. They're putting out a case for a strong team but I say fuck the Caribou cup, let's put out the team that follows Klopp's plans, not something that plays to the crowd. If we go out, I won't complain.

[Koplad83]

And they keep stooping low. There's a hysterical piece in today's edition.

'Elimination to Leicester would turn a disappointing run of form into a worrying one; that dreaded ‘c’ word – crisis – might even be uttered.'

Pricks. They're putting out a case for a strong team but I say fuck the Caribou cup, let's put out the team that follows Klopp's plans, not something that plays to the crowd. If we go out, I won't complain.

I think it's important we get through, as a trophy would really help everyone manager, players and fans.

I would like to see woodburn, Gomez at cb and solanke play tho.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

And they keep stooping low. There's a hysterical piece in today's edition.

'Elimination to Leicester would turn a disappointing run of form into a worrying one; that dreaded ‘c’ word – crisis – might even be uttered.'

Pricks. They're putting out a case for a strong team but I say fuck the Caribou cup, let's put out the team that follows Klopp's plans, not something that plays to the crowd. If we go out, I won't complain.

That's awful. To think that as recently as Tony Barrett's time the Echo was a good source of accurate info, I only go there when I temporarily forget how shit it is and click on a link by accident.

[rojo para la vida]

I think it's important we get through, as a trophy would really help everyone manager, players and fans.

I would like to see woodburn, Gomez at cb and solanke play tho.

Klopp is damned either way it seems because surely that's the sort of experimental team he should be playing but it comes with risks and if it goes wrong, the usual crowd will be out in force. If he plays the same type of team that played in the Burnley game and they fail at the weekend, the usual suspects will also be out in force too.

For me the team that played against Burnley largely needs resting for the weekend Leicester game. I've always subscribed to going to Wembley and winning a trophy is better than coming fourth but if we lose out on CL next season we'll lose momentum, so I'm changing my mind this year.

[jillcwhomever]

I've said this a few times.

I terms of social Media and every idiot having a voice the genie is well and truly out of the bottle so unfortunately we have to live with it and hope the more sensible among the fan base can provide some perspective.

It doesn't help when the fucking rag of a local paper actually creates a story about some knobheads rant about Klopp on some shitty phone in.

Finally, it's the language some of these dickheads use "I want ....... out". I want. Fuck reason, commonsense, patience, basically anyone else, because I want. Tells you everything you need about the mentality that we're dealing with.

The Echo is nothing more than a tabloid these days, and like all tabloids it loves anything what it can describe as a crisis. The crazy story of the idiot fan is just prove of how far its nose dived. Once it used to have sensible journalists who actually informed and constructed proper stories, now it just reports shite off social sodding media, and to them anything is a story. A really sad excuse of a newspaper now to be honest.

[Vote For Pedro]

I've really missed that trigger in Coutihno's brain which decides today's the day to smash everything high and wide from outside the area. Irritating - much like our performance on Saturday. The hyperbole though is ridiculous.

[Dubred]

And they keep stooping low. There's a hysterical piece in today's edition.

'Elimination to Leicester would turn a disappointing run of form into a worrying one; that dreaded ‘c’ word – crisis – might even be uttered.'

Pricks. They're putting out a case for a strong team but I say fuck the Caribou cup, let's put out the team that follows Klopp's plans, not something that plays to the crowd. If we go out, I won't complain.

They are absolute pricks.

Mountain out of a molehill.

We're 5 points off top.  2 points behind Chelsea, level with Spurs, 1 ahead of Arsenal.

Far far far from a crisis.  Sure, we should have won in particular the last 2 games, but crisis........fucking media need their next spin really don't they?

We'll be back on track soon enough.